Wednesday, August 21, 2024

Angus Robertson's error was treating Israel as a normal country while it does abnormal things

The SNP are in an 'interesting' place in respect of Israel.  I don't in any way celebrate the withdrawal of the whip from John Mason, because we've seen in the past that throwing seats away can have serious consequences.  However it sounds like it will be for a limited period only, and it sends out a powerful signal because it suggests that at least as far as the SNP are concerned, the genocide in Gaza is an established enough fact that denying it has taken place is just as unacceptable as denying the extermination of the Jews in the 1940s.  That is absolutely not the position of some political parties - indeed we've seen leading figures from other parties suggest that it is unacceptable to accuse Israel of genocide for the very reason Mason gave, ie. that 'not enough' Palestinians have been killed.  The German government even take the extreme view that admitting the reality of genocide in Gaza in itself an extension of Holocaust denial or of anti-semitism.

So it's principled and in some ways brave for the SNP to suspend Mason on the basis that they have, but it surely leaves them in a hopelessly contradictory position in defending Angus Robertson for meeting the Deputy Ambassador of Israel and being photographed with her.  If Israel's committing of genocide is so undeniable, you surely don't offer tacit approval or acceptance of that genocide by holding business-as-usual meetings with Israeli officials.

When I was younger, I took up penpalling for a spell, and I had penpals in many different countries.  It finally demonstrated to me that I have a northern European temperament, because in spite of the language barrier I found I connected far more easily with people from Scandinavia, France and Germany than with people from the USA or Australia (although my typically brash Aussie penpal from Brisbane did very kindly offer to send me some vegemite, once she had explained what it was). I very briefly had a penpal from Israel, and she was totally different from all the others, because she wasn't interested in talking about herself - all she wanted to do was talk about Israel and educate me about it.  She wasn't being overtly political, it was more like a one-to-one tourism advert, but I realised years later what she was doing. There seems to be a deep-seated insecurity among some Israelis, rooted in the idea that people elsewhere don't see them as a 'proper country'. This leaks out sometimes even among the most seasoned propagandists - one of them blurted out on social media recently "what these people cannot come to terms with is that Israel is a real country!"  I don't think all that many people don't regard Israel as a real country - their issue is that it's a real country committing genocide.

There was an American article recently referring to the protests at Hampden when the Israeli women's team played Scotland, and it suggested that the value of an international  football ban on Israel would be to deprive Israelis of what they really do crave - the respectability of being seen as a normal country on a par with any other. Or more specifically, they crave that normality even while doing abnormal things like genocide, and that's what shouldn't be acceptable and what they must be deprived of.  If they want to be treated as a normal country, they must earn it by acting like one.  They can't have their cake and eat it. That's what Angus Robertson allowed them to do, albeit in a very small way.  Whether that's a sacking offence, I don't know, but it certainly must never happen again.

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53 comments:

  1. Encouraging to see this blog show realism about Angus Robertson.

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    1. Why wouldn't it?

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    2. It is a member of Alba party.

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    3. Blogs are not eligible to be members of political parties. I am a member of the Alba Party, the blog is not. That's been pointed out to you before.

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    4. James \equiv this blog.

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    5. Standardly, blogs are anthropomorphized.

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  2. Should Angus Robertson be punished though if he was just the representative sent by John Swinney?

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  3. I doubt it was Angus's decision. The buck stops as the top

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  4. Israel is doing what most countries would do in the same position. both sides create a doom circle of fear in the other.

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    1. The problem is ... "Israeli's" occupy land stolen from the Palestinians.
      They continue to steal land from the Palestinians (West Bank).
      Would Scots tolerate the same happening to us?
      Sadly... in the absence of backbone I think we probably would.
      The Palestinians are different gravy.

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    2. The Palestinians also commit terror on Israelis. Israel are the ones who must take the first step but try walking in their shoes before assuming it's easy.

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    3. Anon at 4.35pm - I would never walk in the shoes of a country knowingly and deliberately murdering children in their thousands .

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    4. The folk that are all in one side are puppets, self righteous and a block to peace

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  5. Lord of the SlippersAugust 21, 2024 at 4:04 PM

    It was a stupid decision to meet the Israelis in the first place, not because a meeting shouldn't happen but because there was every chance it would be bungled, which it was, quite catastrophically.
    We have to assume Murray Foote knew about the meeting taking place. You honestly would hope a man with a career in tabloid news would advise on how NOT to make disastrous headlines. What's he there for otherwise?
    For a week it's been further diversion from any conversation about indy. The only positive I can see is that a few far left SNP voters may have jumped to the Greens. No loss, frankly.

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  6. The people who denounce this don't speak for me. I am content for us to meet even those we disagree with. I think the turmoil is the same luvvies as usual getting bothered over little.

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    1. Many of the people who have denounced a meeting between 2 people are not interested in Palestine Israel or the wider issues in the Middle East. They are only interested in getting at the current leadership of the SNP. Small minded saddo’s.

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    2. In a nutshell. The SNP are the only govt within the U K to have been consistent in their approach. They called the Israeli actions out. Jaw jaw, however distasteful, has to be attempted. It’s the usual SNP baad brigade on here. They would seem to be too stupid to understand the damage they have done. Labour told us what they would do and are doing it. Devolution being rapidly dismantled. Forget Indy for several decades. The arseholes are the unionists useful idiots.

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    3. "The people who denounce this don't speak for me."

      Did anyone claim to be speaking for a random anonymous commenter?

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    4. The SNP acolytes who say you can't have more than one view on this conflict. Not you per se but that's the prevailing SNP doctrine

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    5. Lord of the SlippersAugust 22, 2024 at 5:58 AM

      Anon @7.49 Agreed. I care a whole lot more about achieving independence for Scotland than I do about Gaza. Right now, there appears to be a very vocal minority in the SNP who think that view should not be tolerated.

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  7. Hamas and the Palestinians are no angels.

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    1. About 40000 Palestinians are, thanks to your pals the Israelis.

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  8. Hamas is a prescribed organisation and the Palestinians are not to be tarred by the same brush. Just as the Israeli government isn’t Israeli people.

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  9. But the Israelis don't make that distinction. 40,000 dead and rising majority of them women and children. The state of Israel was created on the back of terrorism with close to a million Palestinians driven out of their home.

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    1. Israel was created with the help of the great coloniser - England. It’s colonialism for approx 80 years - land theft, murder and oppression of basic Palestinian human rights. With the USA, UK, EU help it will continue for another 80 years.

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    2. Would 30,000 people have died if Israel hadn't murdered them?

      Answer: No. Definitely not. Israel murdering them is definitely the reason they died.

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    3. You're being obtuse. The shelling of gaza hasn't happened in a vacuum..

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    4. What do you expect Israel to do after their people are massacred? Just not go and destroy a bunch of universities? Be serious

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  10. Blushing surely at this reference to wanting to be a real, proper country.. from little old Scotia.

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  11. I think that the SNP leadership have over-reacted with respect to John Mason and under-reacted with respect to Angus Robertson.

    There's a case put forward by South Africa that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians, as well operating a system of apartheid and committing war crimes. The latter two seem a lot more straightforward to verify than the charge of genocide. From listening on the radio to John Mason (with who I disagree on lots) I took away that he's expressing the view that what is happening is terrible and is retribution rather than defensive but he doesn't believe that it's genocide at this point in time. That doesn’t read as condoning Israel's behaviour but merely an opinion statement based on his observation. That he's been suspended seems as though the people making that decision could only tolerate their own single view rather than accept that there's a plurality of views that hold Israel to have over-stepped the mark a long time ago.

    My own view is that I think that it is indisputable thst Israel has committed war crimes on an egregious scale. As a country purporting to be a democracy they can always choose not to bomb. There's the old saying that two wrongs don't make a right.

    With Angus Robertson, tlit seems as though no thought or planning went into the arrangements for that meeting. A basic evaluation of the risks and rewards would've produced only one result. If it was his own idea he should be sacked. If John Swinney sent him, then he should go too.

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    1. John Swinney posted on Twitter about it: https://x.com/JohnSwinney/status/1823705081679897012

      In the thread he says "I understand why some believe a face-to-face meeting was not appropriate, however, I thought it necessary to outline our long-standing position on an immediate ceasefire directly, and explicitly, to one of Israel's representatives in the UK".

      That implies he had direct involvement in the set-up for the meeting.

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  12. I wonder, for those who insisted we needed to give John Swinney a chane... how many still feel the same?

    In his short tenure as leader, Swinney has mishandled the Michael Matheson scandal, led a disastrous election campaign with one of the worst possible outcomes, failed to deliver a strong post-election strategy, and deepened divisions within the party by poorly managing a controversial meeting with an Israeli Deputy Ambassador.

    The SNP doesn't appear to be a party getting its act together or being steered away from the incompetence of recent years. That's not a great sign, especially when they're already behind in the polls.

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    1. Entirely right, 11:05. Continuity John will lead us deeper into oblivion.

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    2. At the moment the SNP leadership are definitely giving "people are sick of us and we're not going to change that while we're in government. Let's let Labour run the show for a while until the pendulum swings back"

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  13. Anon 2.19
    You're the daftie here. Obviously you're a Britnat but maybe not Scottish.
    Judgement on Israel's actions and policies is not the same as comments or judgement on Jewish people.

    You are either really stupid or totally disingenuous.

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  14. The brutal fact is that settler states don't work in the long run unless they do as the US and Australia did - outnumber the previous population massively and carry out massacre. Think of 'Rhodesia', israel even north Ireland which for whatever reasons did not follow through - long term poisonous situations result which may even end in the defeat of the settler population.

    Maybe Netanyahu's mass killers of civilians see this ghastly reality.

    It's the whole basis of settler states that is rancid. Look at Ireland - the poison can go on for centuries. The solution, unfortunately is like the old joke about road directions 'I wouldn't start from here...'

    To me the remark earlier about being more concerned about our independence than the fate of Palestinians is probably the most obnoxious I've ever seen on here.

    It's perfectly possible to be deeply concerned about both. I've never much rated Angus Robertson - a machine politician and a cynic. I'm not much concerned what happens to him !

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    1. Agreed. I do sometimes worry about Scotland becoming like Ireland in late 19th early / 20th century. And potentially areas becoming like NI post independence . There are so many English enclaves now - well of people in rural villages whilst the natives are in the deprived areas of towns and cities. These recent immigrants seem much disinclined to mix or to adapt to Scottish ways unlike many previous English immigrants that generally did mix and were not anti Scottish.

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    2. The snag is that there are lots of people who are passionate unionists. The longer this goes on the more they become a cultural rather than political grouping..

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    3. Lord of the SlippersAugust 23, 2024 at 10:55 AM

      Why am I being obnoxious to say that I care a whole lot more about Scottish independence than a pointless, grinding conflict thousands of miles away, on a pro Scottish independence blog?

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  15. Interesting from Duncan Hothersall:

    https://www.labourhame.com/john-mason-and-the-snps-curious-morality-test/

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    1. Duncan Hothersall? Interesting? Really? #sniggers#

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    2. The scribing Kenny McAskill amd John Swinney as right wing is ludicrous.

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    3. Neither are strong proponents of further extensions of LGBTQ+ rights.

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  16. As an aside why in the Ayrshire and Arran bye-election there is no SNP or ALBA candidates? Seems strange.

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    1. Not an SNP area?

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    2. It's an area that SNP used to consider viable.

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    3. If you can't win Ayrshire or at least giving it a go, that's not good.

      30% is a base. It's not over by any stretch. Politics is a seesaw as long as you can survive til the next spring

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    4. Salmond should stand in Ayrshire, he's right up their street

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  17. It’s becoming increasingly clear the SNP have had their day.
    I fear the electorate will deliver a crushing blow in the 2026 Holyrood election. This will sadly set independence back even further.

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  18. Well ALBA ain’t giving a challenge since they ain’t standing.Greens are.

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  19. The SNP are none party?

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  20. Is there anyone in the SNP who isn't radioactive? Does the Alba Party have any foreign policy?

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  21. Does anyone care if the Alba Party has a foreign policy? Do they still exist?

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