Or at least he did until yesterday, when he suddenly decided to participate after all in this maximally dangerous election for independence by telling his readers to vote against independence. If anyone can actually spot the difference between Campbell and the Daily Record these days, you're doing better than me. Well, OK, maybe there are two differences - one is that the Daily Record is at least based in Scotland and the other is that it's going through the motions of pretending that its endorsement of Labour will not harm independence. Campbell, by contrast, is making no secret of the fact that he's in the destruction business and that he wants the independence movement as we know it to cease to exist. In fact he wants to subject it to total nuclear obliteration, as he makes clear by quoting the Bhagavad Gita via Robert Oppenheimer: "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." There's an unintentionally hilarious bit in his blogpost where he cautions against the supposed dangers of voting Alba because it might not be destructive enough, ie. in his view it might split the anti-SNP vote and help a pro-independence party to win!
This is effectively fulfilling the prophecy that many people have been making in the comments section of this blog for years, that the absolutely intentional and pre-planned end-point of Campbell's tortuous process of repositioning and reframing was for him to be able to instruct his readers that the only way to achieve independence is to vote No in an independence referendum. What he's doing now is the exact equivalent of that, because he's saying explicitly that if you vote emphatically enough against independence, you will somehow be helping independence to rise from the ashes afterwards. He's not stupid enough to actually believe that, but like the Record he thinks and hopes that his readers will prove stupid enough. He knows perfectly well that you don't heal something by turning it into a corpse. He absolutely understands that if people are daft enough to kill independence in this election as per his directions, it will stay dead.
I'll let you into a little secret. Campbell does not see destruction as a creative act. He does not see defeat for the SNP as a means to an end that will renew the independence cause. He sees it absolutely as an end in itself, because he loathes the SNP with every bit as much bitterness as the Record do. And he loathes them not because of any betrayal on independence, but purely and simply because of their actions on the trans issue, which is his first and only love these days. (And maybe just a little bit because they didn't support him in his vanity legal action against Kezia Dugdale.) He has led his readers like the Pied Piper to act against their own interests and beliefs in service to his own narrow and petty agenda.
This guy is a cult leader who has painstakingly brainwashed you into voting against independence, and into thinking you are somehow helping independence while doing it.
Wake up.
There is nothing complicated about this.
If you believe in independence, the way to help the situation is by voting in favour of independence, not by voting against it.
You don't spoil your ballot.
You don't vote for an anti-independence party.
You vote, obviously, for a pro-independence party.
You keep the flame alive.
You don't extinguish it.
* * *
I commented on Wings for the first time in a few years, I just couldn't believe that there were people that would choose to "tactically" vote Labour, or even the Tories, to get the SNP out. The mind boggles! Echo chamber crackpots who I hope are not too widely reflective of reality.
ReplyDeleteIn fairness, Wings specifically said that he was not telling us how to vote, and just offered his opinion, and as much as I'm a regular reader and agree with much of what he says, this is a good example of him not really being up to speed with the reality and nuances on the ground in Scotland right now.
All that said, I really don't know if I can vote for my MP, so I get what he's saying. There are no other independents in my constituency, and I'm still swithering over spoiled ballot or a grudging vote...
"In fairness, Wings specifically said that he was not telling us how to vote"
DeleteOh, for pity's sake. That's his modus operandi. In any post that tells you how to vote, he's going to start by saying "oh but Wings would never DREAM of telling you how to vote". It's like when he announced a year or two back he was voting Tory, and we had people saying in absolute seriousness "he made very clear that the fact he is voting Tory does NOT mean he's a Tory voter!"
The only "in fairness" required here is "in fairness, it's astounding how this guy messes with people's heads and gets them to make utterly ridiculous, nonsensical and contradictory statements on his behalf without even noticing how ridiculous, nonsensical and contradictory they are".
A spoiled ballot is a waste of time. It doesn't achieve anything.
DeleteI suppose it is a means to feel better about not bothering to vote.
DeleteBut how do we vote for the SNP without essentially endorsing the stagnant corruption we have seen within its leadership and it's deliberate avoidance of developing any kind of meaningful strategy for independence?
ReplyDeleteHow do you abstain and install Labour MPs without endorsing the Union? The question you're asking is literally absurd and speaks to the very brainwashing I've highlighted.
DeleteI'm fortunate enough to have a pro indy candidate (Alba in this instance) in Glasgow North but there is nothing James or anyone else could say that would make me vote SNP again - they're dead to me.
DeleteI agree 100% with James Kelly - if you believe in Independence, or even just the notion of having a democratic vote on the matter, then how on earth can you vote for a party like Labour?!
DeleteLabour cannot answer the basic question “what is the democratic route to independence?”. All they say is “I think what the people of Scotland want is…”
In spite of support for Indy being 50/50!!!
To anonymous at 09:09. This is a FPTP election, voting for Alba will result in no pro indy candidates getting elected. Prevaricating about "stagnant corruption" the now simply presents an opening for unionists to exploit to cause unnecessary division. Achieve independence first before worrying about over-hyped accusations of corruption in the Scottish parliament.
DeleteAlba is the only pro indy candidate standing since I no longer consider the SNP to be pro independence. Try as you might, I won't be guilt tripped into voting for them again after all the times I've wasted my vote on them in the past.
DeleteAnd so it came to pass. Like yourself James I said Wings and a few other well kent indy supporters on twitter would be campaigning for No come the next referendum. Their direction of travel was obvious.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of logical flaws in these arguments.Firstly the SNP in government has given the voters many things to vote for,that have improved their quality of life.That is generally ignored by many negative posts on this site.Of course they are not perfect but their achievements (with a limited budget) are considerable.Secondly,the SNP are asking voters to vote for Scotland to become an independent country.That is certainly something that I want.Of course the delay in delivering independence is frustrating,but to blame that on the SNP does not seem logical,since the UK government and the legal situation has opposed a referendum.The source of the delay is conveniently forgotten by many on this site.It is clear that if you factor in a limited number of variables into a situation,it limits what you can see.THE SNP does have a strategy to overcome the resistance of the UK government which involves demonstrating that there is a majority in favour of independence.If people on this site do not agree with that strategy,explain the alternative route please,but do push the false narrative that the SNP are not interested in independence.That is not supported by the evidence and is insulting to many poor souls who have battled to promote independence for many years.
ReplyDeleteVery much agree.
DeleteDespite the SNP, there pretty much is a demonstrable majority for independence with polls running around 48%. The SNP's behaviour since 2017 has scunnered a huge number of SNP members and their divisive policies that no one voted for -Offensive behaviour at football, hate crime bill, GRRRB - are highly unlikely to improve that figure. On the contrary, they're designed to further alienate the long suffering independence supporters, there's no other logical explanation. People need to realise the SNP are the party of devolution - while they are the only major party purporting to be for independence, they're guaranteed a massive number of MSPs (of dubious abilities)
DeleteSo what you are saying is that it is okay to be offensive at a football match and perfectly reasonable to commit a hate crime….are you serious? These policies are actually intended to unite Scotland as a free peaceful independent country not divide (a unionist tactic employed to divide and rule) as Labour and there good unionist friends the Tories have been doing for decades all intended to keep Scots in their box. The SNP have a wealth of talent and to say otherwise is to fall into the Sarwar and Ross trap of destroying the independence movement. Scotland has to unite and vote for the biggest party for independence, SNP, if you don’t agree with everything they do, then when we are independent vote for another party, to split the vote is exactly what Westminster want don’t fall into their project fear trap………vote SNP and let’s get our independence once and for all…..for god sake…makes sense!!!
DeleteDespite what James says there is still a grouping of posters on here who are intent on doing what WOS is suggesting. They get angry and personally abusive when you point this out to them. And like WOS, they are fuelled not by a desire for Indy but by a hatred of SNP. As James rightly points out, brainwashed, and frankly, stupid.
ReplyDeleteThe SNP are a barrier to independence, hence I now support Alba. It’s impossible to vote Labour, even if like me you support most of their policies, because they don’t recognise a democratic path for indyref2.
DeleteI agree WOS is wilfully attempting to destroy the Indy movement out of sheer revenge.
Anon at 10:37.
DeleteTwo questions:
1. Which Labour policies do you support?
2. How are they different from the othe Tories?
Scottish independence is literally front and centre of the SNP's manifesto. Vote for them and call them out if you dare.
DeleteI am voting Alba in Falkirk. Essentially a pro independence vote, but an anti SNP vote. It will still result in votes being taken away from the SNP , much like abstaining. If the SNP lose the seat. The MSM won't report the Alba party combined with SNP percentage, they will just see it as a defeat for the SNP. There isn't a real difference, between that outcome and abstaining.
ReplyDeleteThe media will paint any picture that suits their agenda. Facts are left at the ballot box. I just can't vote SNP due to a myriad of personal reasons. But mainly because they are time wasters.
That said if you have no indi alternative your area , you have to vote for the only perceived indi party. Even if every dug on the street knows the SNP are no longer an indi party.
The SNP can change , pressure from members , if they understand the problem might eventually mean a new leader with a better Indy policy.
DeletePersonally I think the time to vote Alba would be HR 2026 on the list.
An Alba vote will be a mere footnote and ignored as you suggest . However at least the SNP might notice it.
Wasn't that said during Sturgeons entire time as leader though? How much time do we give them to change?
DeleteAlso isn't it incredibly demoralising that it's all come down to blind faith that things can be different and that's frankly not inspiring enough for many to vote for?
When I "came over" to the cause from my old party, my first impression was Wings was brimming with the lunatic faction and best avoided lol.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, a couple of shifts for Jeremy in London, back home for the weekend and a couple of shifts for my local SNP and I'll have done my bit.
Regards,
M
WOS is like the box in ghost busters that mad spirits are drawn into and contained for the good of the rest of us. Campbell does that with the mouth frothers on the fringe of Indy. We should be grateful. And he gets money from them to do it. Hats off to him.
DeleteI call him the Dementor. Indy marches, papers, politicians. It doesn't matter if it's SNP or not, now. Energy must be sapped from even fledgling efforts at a united front.
ReplyDeleteThe analysis makes no sense. The unionists are salivating at the SNP losing.
The people on SNP may not be to his liking but people can be replaced. And different party culture adapted. A party that wins seats cannot easily be.
The SNP need to hang on and rebuild. A total wipeout is a terrible idea.
That’s not possible with the cabal running the SNP and Sturgeon still pulling the strings. FFS, Yousef was about to speak to Ash Regan and next minute he was told to resign - and he was allegedly the party leader!
DeleteQuality public sector pay rises
ReplyDeleteFree tutuion
Free bus passes
Free prescriptions
Improved childcare hours
People are stupid.
I think that was paid for by decimating local care services, prettymuch eliminating local social care services and biblical potholes, and now closing libraries and sports centers and sacking teachers. It's designed to make central government look good.
DeleteSacking teachers? Teachers have had their salaries increases manifold.
DeleteA bottom rung teacher is on about double the MEDIAN income after some years.
The SNP effective are the party of the well paid public sector sector.
Ironically pretty much all accomplished under a Salmond Government. Why are there fewer good SNP policies quoted that were achieved after he left office a decade ago?
DeleteIt's as hard to maintain these policies.
DeleteChildcare hours, youth travel and childcare payment have all been done on top since Salmond.
I agree councils (as always) are awful
Without some green bashing wed have had a good deposit scheme as well
DeleteWings Anon at it again. Best ignored at this point. The vote he keeps is not signifant but affect on grassroots is. For shame.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this post James, it's correct✓. I'd add to this that the SNP will move on in time, from any contentious issues, and time will heal.
ReplyDeleteLessons will be learned too
As for blind, agenda driven hatred, well that never leads to anything good.
Either hold your nose and vote SNP or any other independence party, or abstain, but NEVER assist the enemies (Westminster parties and therefore the British state) who will punish the independence cause
I agree.
DeleteI’d never vote for a unionist party, however I will be abstaining as Alba aren’t standing in my constituency.
I’m firmly of the belief, if enough independence supporters stay at home in this election the SNP will finally take notice and take a long hard look at themselves.
Short term pain for long term gain is the way I’m looking at it.
Yeh - that’s what Labour unionists are hoping for.
DeleteDon't forget that the Alba Party was originally floated as the Wings Party. Slowly turning "a list vote for the SNP is wasted" into "a vote for the SNP is wasted."
ReplyDeleteCampbell hasn't been acting in the Yes movement's interests since around 2017. He was obviously expecting to be handed a safe seat in '15 or '16. Ever since Sturgeon didn't go to Bath and ask him on bended knee to be a MP or MSP, he's been turning against her and the weans and the neighbours and the... you get the picture.
It's blatantly obvious despite Swinney photographs at Pride marches (the horror!) that trans stuff has been put on back burner.
ReplyDeleteStuart is a rebel with a unionist cause now.
Has it!!?
DeleteYes
DeleteWell why was Swinney wearing a tee shirt with the trans flag superimposed on the saltire on it?
DeleteDo you want the first minister not wear a shirt and show of his pecks? No thanks.
DeleteEven Alex Salmond doesn't want the SNP to be destroyed and he has a better reason for wanting that than Wings ever will.
ReplyDeleteI don't like the SNP over a few issues but a destruction is spite not analysis.
FFS James. As a result of this post, I am going to have to vote for Owen bloody Thompson. The SNP owe you one. But pretty sure Labour will win Midlothian anyway.
ReplyDeleteBack in the day Wings was a great site. I used to particularly like the analytical dismemberment of the news stories of the day written by so called political journalists. It was educational and I think a lot of us cut our teeth in learning how to take what we were being fed by the main stream media with a large pinch of salt. So I will always be grateful for that.
ReplyDeleteI stopped visiting the site when Stu pretty much went into retirement and anyway the primary focus had shifted to Trans issues which I have no interest in. I seem to recall that started as a slow burn when Trans activists piled on Stu for "misgendering" Bradley/Chelsea Manning.
His site and his interests. The anti SNP stuff largely occurred after I left so I don't know much about that.
Ironically, Stu was a Liberal and living in Bath the MP is Liberal and the chances of a Tory unseating that MP are nil. The Liberals are very...Liberal on Trans issues. As the Kinks said "it's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world".
He lost the plot completely after his attempt to sue Dugdale absolutely flopped.
DeleteCampbell is very good at cut n paste. Analysis and original thoughts? Not so much.
DeleteJust as a caveat. The independence party in Quebec had two referendums. They narrowly lost the last one, probably due to rigging by the Canadian government.
ReplyDeleteHowever after that the party gradually moved away from independence , and they were wiped out. This is what happens to parties when they stop being what they were invented for. The SNP could be the architects of their own demise. Blaming the electorate is simply unfair. We are not unthinking robots. There is an emotional context to how Yes voters are feeling.
I am totally conflicted on this like most people. Angry at the SNP ,yes, but I despise the Labour party and any other unionist party. So when we vote all of these emotions ride high in our thinking.
I am a Yes voter and I do have feelings.The SNP has not moved away from independence and I am not angry with them,so Anon 9;34 am,you are not speaking for all Yes voters.I understand the challenge that the SNP face,and how they plan to overcome that challenge.In order to achieve independence the SNP will need the support of all ,or most,Yes voters.Unfortunately,at the moment there are divisions and confusion within the Yes movement.That is likely to hold us back until there is better communication within the Yes movement.It is so sad to read some of the contributions on this site ,but it is what it is just now,and the real enemy (our unionist opponents) must be delighted.
DeleteI will probably hold my nose, and vote SNP.
ReplyDeleteThe party seems to have forgotten its core purpose.
Taking control back from England is a revolutionary act, and needs revolutionary tactics. Westminster is a foreign parliament, and will always act in England's interests.
I would prefer the SNP to take a leaf out of Sinn Fein's book, and not send any representatives to Westminster. Why submit to Westminster diktat?
I'm with you here. I'll also vote SNP this time . However , I'll consider my options and maybe vote Alba on the second vote at HR 2026. Maybe a significant harder line , pro-Indy group of MSPs will push the SNP into a more radical position.
DeleteDanger is if Labour big win in Scotland next week , Sarwar will be in a good position to get to be FM , with LD support. Even the Tories would sit on their hands to keep out an SNP FM.
Indy would be pushed further into the future.
Alba gu brath.
I reached the conclusion about three years ago that Campbell was either a headcase or a plant. I now think he's both. Incidentally, I notice that your regular correspondent ''Independence for Scotland' hasn't made any comment so far on this. How unusual!
ReplyDeleteBeing called out this publicly by James is hugely embarrassing for him. Starmer has already signalled his intent to dismantle as much of devolution as he can. Not voting Indy helps him do just that. 2026 is the time to bloody the SNP nose, with a list vote for another Indy party.
DeleteAll about opinions. We disagree.
DeleteI’m abstaining.
ReplyDeleteDecided on this a while ago. I’d vote Alba, ISP, or another Indy Party. Can’t bring myself to vote SNP, and Greens don’t care about Indy that much - i voted them in 2016 so it’s not like I’m against Greens, in principle.
Held my nose in 2021, voted SNP, and look where we are.
Have we hit rock bottom yet? Who knows? We’ll on be on the rebound when the SNP bothers to reform internally - ditch the careerists, woke nonsense, and current ruling faction.
They have to lose or this will never happen.
SNP made an arse of the fundraising and also niche policies but independence has stalled due to defacto vote being grounded by internal bitterness and lack of popular support.
DeleteSwinney would call a defacto vote tomorrow if support for it was high
"We’ll on be on the rebound when the SNP bothers to reform internally - ditch the careerists, woke nonsense, and current ruling faction".
DeleteThat's definitely necessary which is why I find it surprising that we're being asked to re-elect the careerists and just have hope that things will change when there's no reason for them to.
When you vote for a Party you're giving them the seal of approval that you're happy with what they're doing and that they should just carry on as normal.
Anon at 10.52.
DeleteThis is it in a nutshell.
I'll hold my nose and vote SNP but how do we hold them truly to account when we don't agree?
Anon @ 10:58.
DeleteWe can't that's the issue.
But we're expected to believe if we just keep voting for them they'll then listen... Why would they when they've already got your vote?
In 2026 I think a genuine list only Indy party would gain a meaningful number of votes and some seats. This could double up as a warning shot across the bows of the SNP. Many, myself included, will not be giving the greens our list vote in 2026. The vitriol and hatred of some Indy supporters needs to dissipate. WOS is the natural home for these people.
DeleteI think that some of the people on this site should reflect more carefully about what they wish for.
Delete1:04 And Wee Ginger Dug is the natural home for those lemmings who will follow the SNP over the cliff if told to. James' site is meant to be open to both sides of the debate.
DeleteHold your noses only to 2026 , this is the point
DeleteAnon at 10.58. List vote in 2016. I know six people, all who will hold noses for G E but will vote for a credible list only Indy party in 2016
DeleteI'm not your bete noire IFS. I think you'll find that you don't control the narrative here. This is a site for open debate. Grow up silly billy.
DeleteI agree with 4.50
DeleteThere are some silly dimbles around here.
I agree with myself. (It's been a while since we saw that one).
DeleteAlso many on here may not care about the trans gender stuff but it's literally what led to the last two First Ministers resigning... so it's obviously not a niche issue to the public.
ReplyDeleteIt's not difficult to argue that having multiple leaders resign and making your Party unpopular with the public over these kind of issues isn't exactly helpful to the independence cause either.
I saw a trans person on the bus. It was a double decker.
DeleteI don't think many people in the general public give a stuff about the trans issue. It's had its day as a topic of discussion, if it ever really was one.
DeleteThe next Scottish Parliament will be interesting. SNP/Labour won't be anywhere close to a majority and the Lib Dems won't have numbers to support Labour as in 1999-2007. The Greens might be stronger though.
ReplyDeleteInteresting times ahead.
The SNP tide is going out but hopefully not by much as Labour will mess up at Westminster and when the tide comes back in nothing will be able to stop independence.
Starmer stated that even if the SNP won a massive majority , it would make zero difference. He will not negotiate with the SNP or any other indy party. So basically two fingers up to democracy.
ReplyDeleteYes the unionist will weaponise a bad result for the SNP. But they will also ignore a good result. So either way we end up in the same position. There is no democracy for Scotland in the UK.
We can't rely on a majority at Westminster to progress independence. We have had at least 3 SNP majorities already. The support for independence is not affected by how Westminster spins this. The polls show us that despite the SNP car crash , support is steady on about 50%.
I think ultimately what we are aiming to achieve by returning an SNP majority. Is to make us feel good for the next two years. But it really makes no difference to the dead end we are in. If Starmer gets a massive majority , he will be utterly emboldened to do as he pleases. He doesn't need any Scottish Mp's to get that super majority, due to the collapse of the opposition.
The whole situation is a disaster for Scotland. But hopefully that support for indy will grow further, once people realise Starmer is a snake oil salesman.
You're missing the psychology of a large number of Labour seats. It will , in all probability , increase the chance of Sarwar being FM in 2026. Then we will be in a worse position.
DeleteSurely the chances of Sarwar becoming FM in 2026 would be dependent on the Labour Government at Westminster actually doing a good job between now and then?
DeleteAs they say 'a week is a long time in politics', two years will be a lifetime.
Quite agreed @12:55
DeleteSunak is running, screaming out of No. 10 months before he had to. Everyone’s heard the rumours about awful figures and desperate budgets soon ahead. A change of rosette won’t change Brexit Britain’s wrecked reality.
England’s giving Labour a chance to get neck deep in the s***e! Scots are as usual just strapped in for the ride.
Anon 12:55 that probably depends on how large a majority Starmer is able to build up in England. A majority of the sort that many polls are suggesting could generate an extended honeymoon period. These sort of wins tend to generate a momentum of their own that very stubbornly persists.
DeletePeople are correct that the wheels will come off the Labour bus after the election. But it's impossible to say right now just how much benefit of the doubt voters will indulge them with.
Given how much benefit of the doubt they're currently giving them, deluding themselves as they are that Starmer is destined to pivot left post-election, I wouldn't be surprised if folk give them the benefit of the doubt up to and past the next Holyrood election.
And that, of course, could be calamitous for the independence movement.
A unionist majority will see further dismantling of devolution. Starmer has already told you that.
Delete@1:43, “the wheels will come off the Labour bus after the election”
Delete🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The wheels came off the SNP bus a long time ago!
I take it you realise that a massive majority of SNP mp’s, if the polls are correct in stating that the Tories may only get 40 odd mp’s, would make Scotland’s largest party for independence the opposition party in Westminster!!! Englands defence would be terrified!!!
DeleteThe SNP needs to be cowed but not destroyed. That's the difference in the analysis.
ReplyDeleteAll very well not voting SNP but someone has to, to keep their head just above water to mount a repair job.
I won't be guilt tripped into voting for a party that, I believe, like the IPP has abandoned it's core purpose. However I would never and could never vote for a unionist party and am lucky enough to have a pro independence candidate in my constituency. Unfortunately the SNP have been taking us for a ride for years. People voted Labour for home rule and abolition of the HoLs for decades and it's still not happened and never will. Starmer plans raft of new Labour peers.
ReplyDeleteThe approx gap between independence support and SNP support is 20%. I rather they got out and voted for another independence candidate than stayed at home.
If you have a genuine independence focused SNP candidate then by all means vote for them. If you don't, vote Alba, ISP or an Independent for Independence candidate. Will this let unionists win? Well probably, but so did SNP 1, 2 and Sturgeon didn't give a toss! And they'd win if the Yes voters stayed at home so better they come out and vote for an independence candidate they can support.
@11:13 Agreed.
DeleteTo vote for the SNP is to endorse everything they have done. They’re not the party of independence. Their priorities are clear in their actions.
I suppose in that case, to vote for any party is to endorse everything they've done. Voting Unionist, as the Tory in Bath implies is the correct course of action, is to explicitly commit oneself to British nationalism. There's no way around that.
DeleteDefeatist attitude. Scotland would never have a voice again. Vote SNP and let’s get our independence. Sounds like there are quite a lot of Labour troll propagandists on this feed!!! Either that or what we used to call 90 minute nationalists. It has taken Scotland decades to get to this point don’t wreck it by falling into the unionist project fear abyss…..vote SNP and let’s get our independence!!!
DeleteThere's essentially two camps.
ReplyDeleteCamp 1: We need to maintain a pro-independence majority. Not voting for the SNP risks letting in unionist MP's and if the SNP lose the election that will set independence back significantly.
Camp 2: We don't have a pro-independence majority, just the illusion of one. There has been inaction on independence for the last decade and there's nothing to suggest anything will change if the SNP are re-elected. They need to be shocked into action or we sadly need to rebuild from their demise.
Those in Camp 2 believe we'll still be in exactly the same position 10 years from now if Camp 1 have their way and maintaining the status quo for that long with independence continuing to be dangled like a carrot is just to much of an ask. As least if the SNP lose we can then regroup, reform and rebuild.
People must vote, or not, as they feel moved. I've never been much of a fan of tactical voting. OK I suppose if the party you vote tactically for is a close match but I would never vote for a Unionist party simply to teach the SNP a lesson. Because at the end of the day I would be left having voted Unionist. I don't think that would sit easily with me.
ReplyDeleteThere is a fair chance the SNP could lose a lot of seats this time round and I guess we must brace ourselves for Sarwar and Starmer to tell us the desire for independence is dead. Pithy comments about opinion polls will be ignored. They will crow and crow loudly. In fact I think they might quite moist in anticipation.
Absolutely
DeleteAlso Sarwar and sir Smarmer will be set up for advance in 2026.
Hence vote SNP if you can hold your nose till 2026 . In HR thre will be other possibilities that have a chance on the list.
Anon 1:19,now is never the time to damage any part of the independence movement.I do agree that the next election for the Scottish parliament is the best opportunity for the SNP to have a defacto referendum.However,if the SNP lose too many seats in this coming general election,the psychology in advance of the next Scottish election will be less favourable.Meantime it is important to have a Yes majority in that election,and use that momentum to win a Yes majority in 2026.I would also point out that while SNP and Alba Mps are outnumbered in a hostile Westminster environment.they do stand up for Scottish interests.God knows what it would be like if they were not there.Also,many SNP MPs have worked hard for their constituents,as my MP has done.There are always poor MPs in all parties,but many MPs,including mine,deserve praise for a demanding and difficult job.
DeleteNarrative also matters. Let's see what two years of the media hammering Scots with the narrative that independence is utterly, demonstrably dead does for independence support.
DeleteNot voting- benefits unionism Brexit and the rest, spoiling your ballot paper likewise, Vote for smaller parties benefits unionism due to the FPTP system. Only registering your vote for SNP and keeping MP’s who back Scotland is the positive way.
ReplyDeleteOnes who back Scotland into a brick wall?
DeleteDo we really want 5 more years of baseless speeches, crying democratic outrage and then nothing being achieved?
We gave the SNP 56 out of 59 MPs previously and it did absolutely nothing to benefit us. Why would this time be any different?
What good? Why, Scotland won’t be dragged out of Europe against our will! That’s what good. 😉
DeleteHow exactly could SNP have stopped us being taken out of Europe?
DeleteAsk Ian Blackford, he promised it.
DeleteThe only thing they back is their own bank balances. Where's our £600k ?
DeleteAnon st 7.14? It’s not your money. You donated zero.
DeleteYou'd better run, then.
ReplyDeleteI think of them more as a hobo squatting on the spot where our party of national liberation should be. Rent free, but getting some bother from the police at last…
ReplyDeleteI think things is being told what to do by Mi5 , he is not death the destroyer, but the UKs Lord Haw-Haw
ReplyDelete* i think wings...
DeleteSomeone else comes to mind when you mention Mi5, and she was far better known and more significant.
DeleteThora hird?
DeleteEnid Blyton? She made stories up as well.
DeleteLaura Kuenssberg ?
DeleteMata Hari?
DeleteMargaret Thatcher?
DeleteTry harder, Brit boys. You know who I mean. Your saint.
DeleteSaint Mirren?
DeleteThere is in fact,one other camp.
ReplyDeleteCamp 3: Independence will be achieved when the majority will of the Scottish people vote for it.As the Supreme Courts (in the small print states:If the majority will of the Scottish people is for independence,the UK government will find it difficult to resist.Thus it is important to vote for the party that has most chance of winning in all elections until that situation is reached.The will of the Scottish people can be demonstrated in a general election,or a defacto referendum during elections for the Scottish parliament.During the general election,the SNP are asking voters to :Vote SNP in order to make Scotland an independent country.I assume that most people on this site want that? Therefore,focus on the real enemy and contribute towards achieving a majority for independence.
Sorry, pal. That’s not how FPTP works, nor, overwhelmingly, how elections get reported. Wake up and smell the coffee. Brian
DeleteThere's a good related article on Bella here: https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2024/06/26/diagonalism-the-cosmic-right-and-the-conspiracy-smoothie/
ReplyDeleteAlso this one:
Deletehttps://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2024/06/23/why-vote/
The SNP seem to aspire to match the achievements of the Scottish football team in Euro 24, somehow I don't think they are going to do that well!
ReplyDeleteThey are going to succeed then?
DeleteSucceed all the way to ignominy, yes. Some Scots love nothing else.
DeleteThough if Camp 2 are right Camp 3 will be waiting indefinitely.
ReplyDeleteI suppose if you want to know what’s going on the leafy suburbs of Bath, Engerland you would think that.
ReplyDeletehe could have just said vote Alba or don't vote at all.
ReplyDeleteFirst line, vote Unionist.
True colours out.
latest tweet sitting there bemused by losing 400 followers overnight...
PS I don't even like many in SNP either but voting unionist? gees peace.
Will voting SNP get us independence? No.
ReplyDeleteWill not voting SNP get us independence? No
DeleteSo don't vote?
DeleteNot voting is to choose oblivion. One simply disappears. There was a local election the other week. 24% turnout. Do you think the person who won cares what the other 76% didn't vote for? However, the chances are the none voters will be high this time and not just in Scotland.
DeleteI think people need to get real here. Whatever complex rationale you give to your vote (or abstention or spoiled ballot), your vote does absolutely nothing other than add one to a particular candidate's tally. The votes are counted and a winner is declared. And that is it. There's no analysis of why voter 14,239 who passionately supports independence didn't vote for the SNP.
ReplyDeleteThe *fact* is. If the SNP lose a significant proportion of seats, the London media and London-based parties will declare independence dead (and ALBA's performance, no matter how good, is irrelevant to this narrative). Politics is entirely about narrative, so no matter how strong your twitter echo-chamber agrees your vote against the SNP was really a passionate vote for independence, the 'independence is dead' national media narrative will easily overpower it. Indeed, the set-back may even cause some slippage in independence polling, because it's all about narrative (this is why the SNP's second best ever Westminster result at the time in 2017 was seen as a set-back, that no amount of reasonable spinning could reverse.)
Finally, it's really not obvious to me what more folk think the SNP could have done to advance independence. The *fact* is that it can't be achieved without a referendum, talk of UDI is simply crazy, when 50% of the population doesn't support it. No matter how much we believe in independence, other people don't. The challenge to all independence supporters is how do we persuade others that it's right for Scotland? For what it's worth, being unpleasant to each other and to those who disagree doesn't strike me as a winning strategy.
I agree with all of the above, no person no party can declare UDI without support of the electorate, and the only way to get that is through a referendum of the people of Scotland
DeleteThis referendum does now not have to be awarded by the UK government, only a consultation will now be required since they have used a modern day English supreme court ruling to deny democracy by their agreement
A referendum will be conducted under the auspices of the United Nations agreed conditions of the right of Scotland (the country) to define it's own future
No other party can bring this about except the SNP internationally recognised as the national party of independence for Scotland, other parties are not recognised as representative
Since when do we care what the media says?
DeleteWe've always had different media narratives to sway people off independence but despite that polls have pretty much remained around the 50% level (This is also despite support for the SNP falling like a stone in the same polls).
There is now a clear disconnect between support for the SNP and support for independence, that indicates that even if the SNP loses the independence movement will still survive (regardless of what those SNP politicians are saying in a desperate attempt to get re-elected).
Following the Supreme Court ruling in November 2022 Nicola Sturgeon said the following:
***
The fact is, the SNP is not abandoning the referendum route.
Westminster is blocking it.
And in that scenario, unless we give up on democracy – which I, for one, am not prepared to do – we must and will find another democratic, lawful and constitutional means by which the Scottish people can express their will.
In my view, that can only be an election.
The next national election scheduled for Scotland is the UK General Election, making it both the first and the most obvious opportunity to seek what I described back in June as a de facto referendum.
As with any proposition in any party manifesto in any election, it is up to the people how they respond. No party can dictate the basis on which people cast their votes.
But a party can be – indeed should be – crystal clear about the purpose for which it is seeking popular support.
In this case, for the SNP, it will be to establish – just as in a referendum – majority support in Scotland for independence, so that we can then achieve independence.
That, then, is the principle.
However, now that the Supreme Court’s ruling is known, and a de facto referendum is no longer hypothetical, it is necessary to agree the precise detail of the proposition we intend to put before the country – for example, the form our manifesto will take, the question we will pose, how we will seek to build support above and beyond the SNP, and what steps we will take to achieve independence if we win.
***
So in answer to your question of "it's really not obvious to me what more folk think the SNP could have done to advance independence" they could have done what the First Minister outlined in November 2022. Just imagine where we'd be now over a year a half later if they had?
I agree Paul with everything you say.
DeleteHowever, there has been
1. No discernable independence campaign from the party of independence
2. A rubbishing of pushing independence via elections by some in that party. Mcdonald and Guiliagno spring to mind
If you think the UN is going to declare our independence for us, may I point you to what’s going on in Gaza and how little is being done about it.
DeleteThe UN recognition of Scotland’s statehood is the cherry on top. Getting the UK *OUT* is no one else but our job.
DeleteNobody said the UN is going to *get* Scotland independence, you're twisting the words written
DeletePaul - That is entirely disingenuous. Independence can be achieved by having an independence declaration before the election , explicitly advising the voters that a vote for the SNP is one for independence.
ReplyDeleteIf they win , then they begin independence negotiations. The outcome of such negotiations is then presented to the people to ratify in a referendum. This is not the same as a post referendum, because the decision to go for independence has already been sanctioned by the people. It is simply the shape of independence that is being signed off by the electorate. From history such a proposal after negotiation has never been lost.
In the event it was rejected. The government would simply draft a changed proposal , and re-submit this for approval.
Indeed even having a stand alone referendum would still require a second referendum on the proposal after negotiation. The important part is that using an election is in the gift of the Scottish government and the result is binding. We do not need to seek permission for a GE. They happen every 5 years legally.
One of the biggest annoyances is the number of people who genuinely believe that's actually the SNP's current plan for this election and by voting SNP they're voting for independence itself (rather than just another mandate for another referendum) and other SNP supporters obviously aren't in a massive rush to correct those who have declared that they're going to vote SNP.
DeleteThat’s party politics. Corrosive, isn’t it? Pundits ask “why is there so little trust in politics now” and that is the answer. Parties play to win, to hell with everyone else, including their own supporters.
DeleteWinning SNP bums on Westminster seats is not what we mean by INDEPENDENCE.
This time next week the National’s front page will be: 24 HOURS TO SAVE INDEPENDENCE.
DeleteAnon 4.19. Is it so difficult to understand that we who advocate voting SNP do so because of the way large SNP loses will be portrayed in the media ? We say hold your nose till HR 2026 because then you could really make a difference because of the second vote.
DeleteMany think some of the folk that claim to support independence but advocate not voting SNP in this FPTP GE are really just britnats.
But when it comes to the 2026 election SNP supporters will righty be saying that they're not expected to do as well in the Constituency ballot like in previous elections so it will be more important than ever to vote SNP 1&2.
DeleteThey will say voting for anyone else on the List will risk losing Holyrood to the unionists. Believing that won't be the messaging when that election comes is a fantasy.
Precisely, 4:52
Delete“Now is not the time. Hold your nose and wheesht for Indy.” They say it every election. Always will, until this game is halted.
Anon at 1.15. The BBC and MSM just love you. Keep up their good work.
ReplyDeleteAnon at 4.14. You do know that Albas plan is basically the same as SNPs plan??
ReplyDeleteTo be fair to Rev Stu I think he feels that the SNP is an impediment to independence and that one needs to first eliminate it.
ReplyDeleteCampbell is concerned only with his bank balance and there appears to be no shortage of silly billy people stupid enough to send him money. Fair play to him. Fools gold.
DeleteIf Campbell truly believed that, he would encourage people wholeheartedly to support Alba. Instead, as James points out, he is arguing against Alba on the risible basis that it wouldn't be 'anti-SNP enough' of a signal.
DeleteCampbell could come out and explicitly say 'a No vote in any future independence referendum is the only way to support independence', and the droolers in his comments section who have outsourced all of their thinking to him (under the misapprehension that he taught them to 'think for themselves) would somehow find a way to argue that he was quite right that only a No vote was the path towards independence.
People have been fair to Campbell for far, far too long. They were fair to him when he pivoted towards anti-independence first and foremost. They were fair to him when he lost all interest in independence and obsessed endlessly on the trans issue that only agitates and excites a paltry number of voters either way. They were fair to him when he declared his conversion to the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Now people are STILL 'being fair to him', despite the fact that he has left us in no doubt that he's also cast aside Alex Salmond and Alba like a used Kleenex.
The man could replace Alistair Darling at the head of Better Together and folk would still be 'being fair to him'.
I’m a snp supporter and member and Campbell is a libdem unionist. I live in Scotlnd , he doesn’t so take a hike.
DeleteAll a bit too camp for me
ReplyDeleteCamper than a pantomime
DeleteOh no it’s not!!
DeleteAnon @ 4:41.
ReplyDeleteSNP Plan = Win majority of Seats in the election, begin negotiations for a referendum. Cry democratic outrage and then do nothing when it's denied. Maybe do something with the Holyrood election in 2026, maybe not.
Alba Plan = Win 50% + 1 of votes in an election for pro-indy Parties. Begin negotiations for independence itself. Use a combination of Legal Action, Parliamentary action, Popular Action and International Pressure if Westminster refuses to engage.
Also unlike the SNP's plan we'd actually be in a different position from the status quo by achieving over 50% for independence at the ballot box. That opens up other avenues to us (especially legal ones).
I like the plan,but realistically,how long will it take for Alba to win the majority of seats in a Westminster election? Also ,how likely is it that the UK government would recognise a majority of 50% +1,as a mandate for independence? The SNP plan sounds more realistic and achievable for me.
DeleteThe aim shouldn't be to win a majority of seats, it should be to use an election as a de-facto referendum.
DeleteWinning the majority of seats does nothing as the SNP have already proved.
A majority of seats is enough for the SNP to start negotiations for a referendum.it is best to use a general election for that putpose since in a UK general election the media is more focused on who will be the government in the UK.The next Scottish election is the best opportunity to hold a feracto referendum since the focus will be on Scotland.The opportunity to demonstrate a majority in favour of independence is much greater.However,if the SNP win the majority of sears (once more) in the general election,the Yes movement will have greater momentum for the Scottish election.The psychology for each election differs and it is critical to ensure that it favours independence.
DeleteThat’s the SNP plan.
DeleteHow is that different from their 2017 General Election plan?
DeleteBack then the SNP said winning a majority of seats would give the party a "triple lock" of mandates to call a second referendum on independence and that the UK Government would find it "democratically unsustainable" to continue to oppose another referendum.
2026 vote SNP ( 1 ) and ALBA ( 2 ) exceeding the limits purposely set by the D Hond't voting system , this system gives those parties that get fewer votes in ( 1 ) a lot of extra votes for free in ( 2 ) so that they actually get seats in parliament that they dont deserve and didnt win AND those parties like SNP who get nearly all the votes and seats in ( 1 ) are then handicapped and punished by having their actual votes in ( 2 ) divided by ten to make sure they get hardly any seats in ( 2 ) the net result of this is that the clear winners only get a draw its like winning a football match ten nil only to be told that to make the game proportionally represented your ten goals are to be divided by ten giving you a 1-0 win .OKAY you still get the win but in future years people looking at the score will say
ReplyDelete" OH that must have been a close game " when clearly it was not and thats the trick that the BBC STV SKY and all the english newspapers in Scotland do every Scottish parliament election , they have a similar trick for the westminster election where they present each of the english parties labour tory lib dem as being individual parties in the run up to the election but after the election they become one , one party against scottish independence otherwise known as bettertogether or the unionists or the keep scotland under englands control , terence callachan dundee
WOS what a waste , the Dugdale case changed their mindset , the Salmond trial toughened it further , the thing is , whatever you think of past or present individuals in SNP they come they go but SNP lives on it lives on because its a cause its a beleif its a fight for justice for the freedom of our people to choose and get a political party and policies it votes for .Those who now say they wont vote SNP are either not real independence supporters or not savvy enough to see the trick being played on them , one thing is constant , the more votes for SNP the louder the english squeal the less votes for SNP the more we are told we are too wee too poor too stupid and would not manage without england looking after our money land resources politics choices, take your pick .terence callachan dundee
ReplyDeleteIt's the SNP faithful who aren't savvy enough to see the trick being played on them. How many years have to elapse with no progress until you realise they have no intention of delivering independence and depriving themselves of their comfy sinecures in London and Edinburgh?
DeleteA lot of them are likely sitting 77th brigade barracks psy ops room. They have upped their game from what they used to post.
DeleteI have voted SNP since the seventies I won’t be voting for them in this election. I supported Nicola Sturgeon until 2016 after this it was apparent that she would decide the policy for independence. With considerable mandates she could/would not formulate a policy in spite of the most corrupt Tory government dragging us out of the EU. Have any of you done your homework on Freeport’s. The people who delivered nothing in fourteen years are still in charge and you want to give them another chance more fool you.
ReplyDeleteHows the 77th mess room is it still a green boat house there?
DeleteOf course you supported the SNP in the seventies. Well done. So have I .But you aren’t anymore because of Nicola sturgeon and Freeport’s. John Swinney is in charge. You fool noone with your nonsense. need to update your algorithms unionist.
ReplyDeleteHes a 77th squadie
DeleteThere is not a bone in Nicola Sturgeon's body that does not desire independence for Scotland
ReplyDeleteShe's been doing this since she was 16 years old, all you Alba loonies have just been sitting in your pants on the stupid internet funding other loonies like Stuart Campbell and this idiot blog
You think Salmond can *get* you independence? he's the guy that tried to sell Scotland out for Devo Max till Cameron called his bluff
Salmond is your devolution man
Dr Jim seems to dislike Salmond. Strange man.
DeleteWhy are you on this "idiot blog"? Back to the Dughoose with you!
ReplyDeleteIn response I voted SNP at the last election and have done so since the seventies but no more John Swinney is/was part of the inner circle. Kate Forbes was showing Rees Mog where she would like the Freeport’s should be. All this for the benefit of multinationals and of no benefit to Scotland . Remember the the people you are sending back to Westminster went there to settle up instead they settled down.
ReplyDeleteIs one or several of you posting from 77th psy ops team tonight
DeleteJust saw this “Wheesht for Labour” article at the guardian:
Deletehttps://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/26/to-the-young-people-of-britain-if-you-want-change-you-need-to-vote-for-it
Substitute SNP for Labour and every single argument is identical. Keep the faith, young ones. There’ll be jam tomorrow!
The Economist MRP poll out a wee while ago is encouraging. SNP on 29 seats. Tories on 0 and the latter only on 76 across the rest of the UK.
ReplyDeleteEncouraging but still a big drop in seat numbers for SNP.
DeleteThe vote share will be very interesting too.
Keep an eye on turnout. Scotland’s will be down sharply. Also the true blue Tory Shires of England where they’re too posh even for Reform.
DeleteMeanwhile, over on Electoral Calculus, turnout is up across the board. We’ll see about that.
Nothing is going to happen in the next two years, whether the SNP win or lose. Yes we might have to listen to Sarwar banging on about indy being dedd. But the Scottish election is only 2 years away. We can regroup, and wipe his party out yet again.
ReplyDeleteThis GE will just be changing the leaders on a sinking UK economy. Why do you think Sunac called the election? The Tories are getting out , and letting Labour carry the can.
Their strategy will be to come back in 2029. Right now the UK economy is collapsing, and Labour can save it.
They’ll always tell us Indy is dead.
DeleteThey’ll always tell us Scotland is a basketcase of losers.
They’ll always tell us we are extremists.
They’ll always tell us no one truly wants independence.
They’ll always tell us any further referendums are unconstitutional.
They’ll always tell us now is not the time.
They’ll always tell us that independence is unfeasible.
They’ll always tell us that the nations of the world will turn their backs on us.
They’ll always tell us that we’ll come back begging for a re-Union.
And they’ll do it until Independence Day. Every single one.
The whole idea of independence is utter lunacy.
DeleteDinnae fash yersel, KC. You can come and visit your exhibit in the museum of the new republic.
DeleteLabour will NOT save the economy….just like Broon did they will finish the job that their good friends the Tories have done…they will not give Scotland anything they have already told us what they are TAKING from us…more energy to England…a vote for Labour in Scotland is a vote to destroy Scotland…Starmer is a right winger much akin to Hitler…an autocrat…he will give Scotland nothing just continue to take on the make…if you give Labour englanders your vote or let them in by abstaining or whatever unionist tactic you believe will help the cause of Scottish Independence then you are completely devoid of intellect…..Scotland is better than this unionist propaganda….don’t believe their shit…..a vote for SNP is most certainly a vote for independence!!! Don’t be a mug and believe englands propaganda war on Scotland we deserve better than their union……..VOTE SNP VOTE SNP VOTE SNP🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴
DeleteCan't save it!
ReplyDeleteDo not form a gang of four. Mao Tse Tung urged his wife Chang Ching not to do that. Wise words and timely with it. Golly, let's follow his sage advice.
DeleteMao, Mao, Mao Tsetung.
We have fought and we have sung.
I'm not saying Chairman Mao knew everything but I hate it when people pronounce his name like Mow (Rimington with cow).
That twists my nutmeg.
No I am a born and bred Scot look at what’s happened since 2014 . Perhaps some of the posters on here visit the guy who lives in Ayrshire who will not hear a word against the SNP or Saint Nicola who cannot recollect or recognise the truth. Karma will be a visitor. Judicial review malicious complaints by the police people of the islands ignored ref.ferries. Totally incompetent governance by the Sturgeon Regime.
ReplyDeleteIf she was a good state asset surely she could have tried harder to at least match Salmond’s achievements in office. B+ for her handlers. 😉
DeleteAs an islander I have to commend Macbraynes for always providing a reliable service at an affordable price. It's heartening to see how our welfare has become a matter of intense interest to the public since the BBC chose it as an example if the Government's incompetence. I always thought CMAL ran the ferries not Holyrood.
DeleteAnother unionist nutcase….maybe look at what Sturgeon actually did for Scotlands benefit…..until brexit hit us we were pretty much shielded from Westminsters austerity…Labour and Tory austerity…which is why the independence movement grew so quickly. VOTE SNP VOTE SNP VOTE SNP🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴
DeleteVal McDermid has a pretty decent and reasoned article in the Guardian pointing out some of the things the Scottish Government has done, yes actually done, to improve people’s actual lives. The sort of things that this voter would actually vote for.
ReplyDeleteI’m for independence but sadly many are unconvinced. The only other party in Scotland that is remotely relevant, Labour, hates me because nothing is more important to them than Unionism. Not poverty, not equal opportunity, not fairness. Unionism.
Val and me are for SNP. Not perfect but still on the right road.
I like the ending:
DeleteEven if the SNP loses as many seats as the Unionist-leaning media have suggested, it might be no bad thing. Maybe we can learn something from our auld alliance with the French. They’ve got a great expression: reculer pour mieux sauter – take a few steps back to make a better jump. A few years at the edges of power could give the next generation of leaders time to learn their trade.
Anyone know the French for “You’ll find out who are your real friends when the gravy runs dry”?
What kind of gravy is it??
DeleteIs that Nicola's girlfriend Val? She's bound to be impartial!😁
ReplyDeleteVal is a personal friend of Nicola. So it's impossible for her to see the truth. Like when they ask another football manager if Ckarke should be sacked. Guess what, they sit on the fence.
ReplyDeleteThat’s not the ending. The ending is “how can I not vote SNP”.
ReplyDeleteDon’t be naughty, playnice.
James.. you are on fire here mate. What a soldier. Keep up the pressure on the Rev.
ReplyDeleteDeary me. Back shift brigade are really shit these days.
DeleteAye it’s getting late nearly end of the shift. Ah ken.. what’s all that rubbish about the Rev fighting for women’s rights all about when we have Indy in our grasp.
ReplyDeleteVote SNP - that lassie Nicola, she wiz just daein the best for aw iy us, but they london tories stoaped her fae getting indypendence and than that alex tried to ravish her in the back of a camper van, but peter dragged him aff ...
ReplyDeleteSome people are too dumb to deserve anything good to happen to them.
"everyone gets what they fucking deserve"
If we vote for Labour and their London cronies then we most certainly will get what we deserve……..Scotland fucked up the arse as usual!!!
ReplyDeleteVOTE SNP VOTE SNP🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴