You might remember that after the Supreme Court verdict last autumn, the Tories' Adam Tomkins seemed to panic because he realised that he and others had misstepped by being far too triumphalist. He had used a football score analogy to present the ruling as a crushing defeat for independence, which pretty obviously implied that the right to choose or reject independence lay in the hands of judges in London, rather than in the hands of the people of Scotland. So he hurriedly backtracked by deleting his tweet and then stressing that there was still a democratic route to independence, or to a vote on independence. He summed up that route as "persuasion". He said the ruling had simply left the legal decision in the hands of the UK Government & UK Parliament - but it was obviously unrealistic to expect London to allow the independence question to be revisited when public opinion hadn't changed much since the 2014 referendum. Support for independence had "only" increased from 45% to 50%, so barely no change at all. So what the SNP and the independence movement needed to do was increase the support in opinion polls for both independence and for a referendum to such a high level, and to a high level on such a sustained basis, that the UK Government would be bound to take note and allow a referendum.
What could possibly be wrong with any of that? Why shouldn't democrats in the independence movement have no difficulty in agreeing with every word? In fact, almost everything is wrong with it. None of it is consistent with the principle of democratic self-determination, and a fair bit of it is not even consistent with the basic principles of democracy itself. As I've pointed out before, it grants a massive de facto constitutional role to opinion polls, and indeed elevates the results of opinion polls higher - far higher - that the results of general elections or Scottish Parliament elections. Quite apart from that being a barking mad thing to do, it couldn't even possibly be considered democratically legitimate until and unless pollsters are under legal obligations to eliminate bias from both their questions and their methodology, in a way that all sides accept as fair. There used to be a time when the Tories would say "there's only one poll that counts and that's the poll of tens of millions of people on election day". Now it appears their message is "there's only one poll that counts, and that's a YouGov poll of 1000 people that we quite like the look of".
Tomkins also hinges everything on the narrative that there's essentially no difference between a Yes vote of 45% and a Yes vote of around 50%. That's plainly an absurdity that no true democrat could ever accept. 45% is what the BBC would - and repeatedly did - call a "decisive defeat", whereas 50% is a tie. If you can't see the difference between those two concepts, then the onus is on you to go away and reflect, not on those who take a different view.
Tomkins believes that there needs to effectively be a supermajority - that, say, 51% support for independence will not be enough to justify the people of Scotland being allowed to make a democratic decision. You only need to think about that for two seconds to see why it's not consistent with democracy - he's saying that if 51% (or quite possibly 54% or even 57%) of Scottish voters wish to leave the United Kingdom, the correct democratic outcome is for Scotland to be forced to remain in the United Kingdom against the majority's wishes. Indeed, he believes the majority should not even be allowed a vote in which to express those wishes.
Tomkins makes the UK Government the arbiter, totally at its own whim, of what the threshold for "sufficient" support is, and also what the threshold for "sustained" is. That of course also means that it can change "the rules" at any time it wishes, so that if a threshold of 55% over one year is met, we'll suddenly be told we actually need 58% over five years. Before we know it the threshold will stand at 75%.
The operative word in democratic self-determination is "self". There's no veto from the external master. The whole point of Nicola Sturgeon's strategy last year was to ensure that an exercise in democratic self-determination would definitely take place, in line with the clear mandate for a referendum received by the Scottish Government in 2021. If the Supreme Court ruled in our favour, the preferred option of a conventional referendum would go ahead as planned, and if it ruled in the other way, that would make no practical difference because we would simply move on to a de facto referendum. In either outcome we would define a mandate for independence as a simple majority of 50% + 1. The decision would be the decision, and it wouldn't have to be "sustained" for seven years of 73,241 successive opinion polls showing Yes at 63%+.
What Adam Tomkins is inviting us to do is to convert the Supreme Court ruling into a real defeat by ditching the de facto referendum, accepting the UK Government will make all the decisions from now on, and getting on with trying to impress the UK Governments with epic - and almost certainly unattainable - sustained supermajority runs in opinion polls. Not a single person in the SNP should have any problem in dismissing that as the anti-democratic outrage that it is. Instead, very senior members of the party, including the "free by 2050" faction led by Stewart McDonald and Alyn Smith, the continuity leadership candidate Humza Yousaf, the MSP Tom Arthur, and frankly even Kate Forbes, have been queuing up to accept the Tomkins worldview practically word for word. Don't believe me? Well, consider the following -
1) Nicola Sturgeon intended that an independence mandate should be based on a simple majority on the day of the decision. Do Humza and co accept that, or do they believe that far more than 50% + 1 should be required and over a much longer period of time?
2) Nicola Sturgeon's purpose in having at a de facto referendum was that Scotland would control the process by which an act of self-determination could be made - we cannot, of course, control whether the UK Government respects the result or acts upon it, but that's a separate matter. Do Humza and co agree with that principle, or do they agree with Tomkins that instead of organising a democratic event for ourselves, we should hand over all control to the UK Government and get on with the near-impossible task of trying to "impress" the UK Government into "giving" us something?
3) Nicola Sturgeon believed that the decision on whether or not a democratic vote on independence is held should be made by the people in an election. Thus, because the people clearly decided in 2021 that a referendum should be held, there would definitely have to be either a referendum or a de facto referendum by the end of this term of office in 2026. Do Humza and co accept that principle, or do they agree with Tomkins that the Supreme Court ruling was a real defeat and that therefore the 2021 mandate for a referendum should be dishonoured, and that in future all decisions on referendums should be entirely at the discretion of the UK Government, informed only by whether there are ill-defined "high enough" numbers for Yes in opinion polls of 1000 people run by private polling firms such as YouGov?
I included Kate Forbes above in the list of people surrendering to the Tomkins worldview, and I think that's unavoidable given one or two clear statements she's made during the leadership campaign so far. However, call me a hopeless optimist, but the type of people supporting Ms Forbes does still leave me with some lingering hope that a victory for her would not quite lead us into the graveyard for independence that Mr Yousaf's candidacy represents. Obviously by far the best outcome would be an outright win for Ash Regan, but whether that's realistically possible, I'm not sure.
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What do we all think would happen if we had a plebiscite election and won it with 50% + 1 votes? Who would recognise our win and urge the London government to negotiate with us for independence?
ReplyDeleteYou make the argument well that there should be no effective supermajority requirement, let alone veto from the UK. But in reality there is a grey area if we pip it, instead of winning by a thumper. Then it's down to foreign governments (some of which have made kind comments behind the scenes) to stump up and shove the UK around a bit to talk to us. Scottish independence is a huge setback to the UK, we all know that. London will be very, very reluctant to engage with us at all at that point. So who will? Our neighbours, who all have their own relationships with London to protect?
Literally, at that point: what gives?
I don't want Humza (and a UK passport in 2049), either. But we need to be clear with ourselves, even when our opponents aren't.
"Who would recognise our win and urge the London government to negotiate with us for independence?"
DeleteNobody. Which entirely misses the point, because nobody (if you mean the international community) would recognise the mandate if it was 63%. Agreement with the UK Government would always have to come first. Using a mandate for independence as leverage to bring the UK Government to the negotiating table is a task for after the vote, and nobody disputes it'll be a difficult task, but it's a separate task. You can't do anything unless you first have a democratic event and try to win the mandate. Nicola Sturgeon committed herself to that, and Ash Regan has done the same. The other two leadership candidates have not.
Anonymous - if a democratic majority vote for independence was of no value then why are the Britnats so determined to stop any vote happening. It is part of the Britnat strategy to make people despair. To make people think it is useless to try. The real problem is that we have been led by a useless leader for the last 8 years who wants to inflict more of the same on us via Yousaf.
DeleteA difficult task but a separate task. I hear you.
DeleteAll of this would be easier with a surer wind in our sails, but politics is about creating the weather.
Ash Regan should join the Alba party after she loses the SNP leadership election. If Ash gets 10% of the vote she will have done well.
ReplyDeleteSo what you are saying is that the SNP is no place for people who want to put indy first. Good to know. Maybe all the voters who want indy first should move to Alba too in that case
DeleteNo not really, just think Ash is a hopeless candidate for leader of the SNP. Thought she might find a similar calibre of politician in the Alba bunch.
DeleteAnonymous 7.01pm - Yousaf is your idea of a top notch politician is he?
DeleteI would want a de facto election to be won, not merely to take place. Frustrating though it is, that has to be a Holyrood election as:
ReplyDeleteThe electorate will focus on Scottish issues.
Voters of 16 & 17 vote.
EU citizens vote.
Additionally, enough people will not want an early, forced, Holyrood election, so 2026 it will have to be-that will give time to replace the imminent new SNP leader if they flop, perhaps with Stephen Flynn?
If Humza becomes leader, we're almost certainly stuck with him until the SNP lose the 2026 election. Even after that defeat, Stephen Flynn is unlikely to be the saviour.
DeleteReplying to anonymous at 5.21: If the SNP lose lots of seats at the next UK. GE, I would perceive a real chance of the SNP leader being urged to resign before 2026. Flynn seems able to think on his feet-an important talent these days. I hope he is employed powerfully in the UK. GE-ironically perhaps delaying his rise to the leadership
ReplyDeleteSo, maybe we are at the edge of the abyss ? If the SNP becomes, irretreivably, a 'liberal' fad party - and probably loses it's grip on government, what do we do ?
ReplyDeleteSome sort of regroupment ?- Alba or not Alba ? A bitter prospect but I suppose that we have to think about it even while hoping that it wont happen.
Serious question. Will the National find either someone (like Ross Greer did ) or some issue to stick the boot in to Kate Forbes for each and every day until voting closes or she withdraws. Methinks they want her to withdraw to make it a straight run off between Yousaf and Ash.
ReplyDeleteEven the WGD numpties have been noticing The National's hit job on Forbes but they would never admit that the National is a Sturgeon fanzine and therefore wants Sturgeon's boy Yousaf to win.
Yousaf is hopeless, Kate will win and Ash will leave greetin to join the Alba party after lying for the Express, Telegraph and Daily Mail how she wuz robbed.
ReplyDeleteWell Regan seems to actually want independence so she may as well join a party that also wants independence if she thinks she cannot save the SNP from being a de facto British party.
DeleteI’ve just read an online Telegraph headline that Kate Forbes allegedly wrote in a 2014 letter that “appointing female ministers “ignores God’s plans”” …….I don’t and never will subscribe to that particular newspaper and doubt anyone on here does either but has anyone heard anything about this from another source?
ReplyDeleteI read it in the Record (online version, obviously, I wouldn't pay for that foul publication). By my calculation she would have been 23 or 24 at the time. Heaven help all of us if we're going to be held to every single opinion we expressed below the age of 25. She obviously is/was a very devout person who has a very literal reading of Bible teachings, and she said herself that she didn't necessarily understand the logic of that particular teaching. I doubt if this latest "revelation" has much relevance beyond her views on internal church affairs.
DeleteIt's in the National as well and that was part of what I was referring to in the post at 7.06pm. The National says:- " Forbes team confirmed both that she wrote the blog and continued to hold the same views."
DeleteA possible problem may be that adhering to the Bible saying no woman "assume authority over man" could be interpretated in a wider sense beyond being a Minister of the Church and wouldn't sit well with a female FM of Scotland.
Definitely agree with you James about not being held to your opinions expressed at such a relatively young age. I think I am however a little worried about absolutely anyone who as the FM takes a very literal reading of any religious publication rather than apply their own considered judgement to a specific issue. Whether this applies to Kate Forbes I do not yet know. I’m bordering on despair as I really don’t rate or trust Humza and doubt Ash’s ability to get the numbers she needs to implement her strategy for independence.
DeleteI noted that the new gay poster on WGD who attacked Forbes, attacked the numpties for supporting Forbes and attacked the likes of Tory Badenoch and DUP Arlene Foster had nothing to say about Yousaf's religion and Yousaf. You know the religion that represses gays all over the world and in some countries just murders them outright. Strange that.
ReplyDeleteJust a wee reminder that Humza Yousaf, exPrivate school in Glasgow Hutchie boy, was Justice Secretary throughout the Salmond persecution years. Yousaf is happy to congratulate Pakistan on its independence each year but Scottish independence is relegated to being an aspiration in his opinion. Personally, I think independence is a necessity and the sooner the better. I know a number of ex private school pupils but strangely enough they don't support independence. Is it possible private schools are biased towards the British state?
ReplyDelete