Sunday, July 23, 2017

Logic problems

I'm confused, and I'm wondering if you can help me out.

We've been repeatedly told over the last few days that people are "damaging the Yes movement" by criticising Cat Boyd for voting Labour.

Implicit in that reproach is that people can and should be called out if they do anything to damage the Yes movement.

A prominent Yes activist declaring her "pride" in voting for a rabidly anti-independence party is self-evidently damaging for the Yes movement.  It makes independence less likely.  It makes an independence referendum less likely.

Isn't it therefore logical that such a person should be called out for damaging the Yes movement?

What am I missing here?

70 comments:

  1. Starting to think that it's to do with the theory/wishful thinking/delusion that Labour will one day support independence or at the very least another referendum or at the very very least take a neutral stance on the issue. But only if enough Yessers vote Labour to magically change it from within and only if those Labour-voting-Yessers aren't lambasted for supporting an anti-independence party.

    Seems much like the theory that Corbyn is secretly anti-Brexit and should therefore not be criticised for being pro-Brexit publicly, lest he lose public support and so his chance to prevent Brexit just as soon as the Tory party collapses.

    ReplyDelete
  2. If Labour had come within a certain distance of the magic 326 seats, such that an alliance with the SNP would have put them over the top, then indyref2 would have been a certainty. There is also a hierarchy in unionism in Scotland and it goes something like this, from die in a ditch to meh, alright, union then:

    1) Conservative
    2) UKIP
    3) Lib Dems
    4) Labour

    Labour are the black sheep of unionism. They've earned that title with all their flip floppery and the infamous conversation that Sturgeon told us all about during the debates. So Cat Boyd's vote isn't entirely treasonous to the cause, given all of that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't think 'treason' is a reasonable word to use. It simply shows (imo) that she holds other things more important than independence. I'm not sure what since Labour is pro-Trident, etc, but it must be something.

      Delete
    2. Labour sensibly is pro Trident... Idiots like you have been unable to disinvent the weapon...You would probably have been a Nazi or Commie in other times.
      Anything that hates the British!

      Delete
    3. State of this.

      Delete
    4. North Korea tortures foreign prisoners and sends them home, brain dead. They lock you up for life for something your grandfather allegedly said or did. They spitroast children over open fires. They systematically rape women and then beat them until they miscarry the children conceived as a result of the rape.

      North Korea has nuclear weapons.

      Therefore, we must have nuclear weapons.

      It really is that simple.

      Delete
    5. I don't suppose it's ever occurred to you that the only reason North Korea spent money it didn't have developing nuclear weapons was that it needed a "deterrent" against US nukes?

      Delete
    6. I think they did it to hold the world to ransom and shore up their evil regime. America was never likely to 'nuke' NK. But if it feels threatened enough it may be left with no choice but to launch a nuclear assault in a pre emptive strike.

      Delete
    7. As I suspected - the thought hadn't occurred to you.

      Delete
    8. Because it's clearly nonsense, that's why. North Korea is the country issuing nuclear threats to America, South Korea, Japan and other allied countries as well as committing an on going holocaust against its own people. Yet somehow America is the bad guy, again. The usual response from the left.

      Delete
    9. At the moment, North Korea does not have even a single deliverable nuclear weapon. The US, by contrast, has the capacity to destroy the world's entire population many times over, and is run by a madman. I know what worries me more.

      Delete
    10. North Korea can deliver nukes by planes, ships etc - and could drop one on S Korea before anyone knew what was happening, is working, quickly, on developing ICBMs, has issued blood curdling threats against several countries and is led by a man who makes Trump look stable. At least Trump didn't actually lock up Hillary Clinton. What would Kim Wrong-Un do to a serious political rival? Well, we saw that he used the most deadly poison known to man on his own brother - a man more interested in visiting Disneyland than in leading the country.

      Delete
    11. "North Korea can deliver nukes by planes, ships etc"

      Source, please.

      "and is led by a man who makes Trump look stable"

      Some feats are beyond the capacities of any man.

      Delete
    12. They've demonstrated they can build and explode a nuclear weapon. They have planes. They have ships. They've threatened nuclear attacks. I think That's sufficient as far as proof of threat is concerned.

      How many times has Trump threatened nuclear war? Has he used VX gas on his family members or claimed that he controls the weather or that he doesn't need to use the toilet?

      Delete
  3. I have my own opinions about Cat, which I will keep to myself. However, her own publicly voiced opinions do not match up with her actions IMO.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Me too. The words embedded, undercover and unionist spring to mind!

      Delete
    2. The embedded undercover unionists are probably in parliament and in the SNP executive. Who knows, Nicola may even be one?

      If British intelligence can infiltrate the IRA then the SNP is a cakewalk by comparison. And if you get caught, you don't get shot. Someone will go "Och, am fair disappontit in ye!" - then you probably get pelted with out of date Tunnocks tea cakes.

      Delete
  4. Yes, in my opinion it is reasonable and appropriate if not to 'call her out' then to point out to others how illogical this is if you really support Yes. The 'prominent (supposed) Yes supporter' would seem to not support Yes all that strongly if she votes for a party that strongly opposes Yes. She damages the Yes movement, but it is important to keep the language in discussing it within the boundaries of civility. You did, James, but the same can't be said of everyone.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The idea (which certain people have advanced) that voting for a party that opposes not only independence but even a referendum and put in its mandate that Scotland was not an economically viable nation somehow nudges that party towards changing its policy is delusional. It in fact encourages them to KEEP that policy in place.

      Delete
  5. I could understand the logic of voting labour in a Tory / Labour marginal seat. But in SNP / Labour seats, for any Yes activist to vote for a unionist lobby fodder MP over a pro-indy MP is completely batshit crazy. Especially when the SNP would ultimately have supported a Labour government over a Tory government. But after extracting concessions as the DUP did. More devolved powers, more funding, support for a future referendum etc

    ReplyDelete
  6. Why would a supposed Independence supporter vote for a party that is clearly against Independence , i.e. ,you wouldn't ! It matters not a jot that it was a Westminster election and she thought it would help Corbyn win to get the Tory's out . She voted for the Union , whether it was red or blue is irrelevant , she had her chance to vote for an Independence party , she didn't . Stop playing games Cat , be honest ,drop your Independence pretence ,go home to Labour !

    ReplyDelete
  7. It is expected that fundamentalist narrow back fascists will attack anyone that does not toe the line...I am sure Boyd woild expect this.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No, it simply a matter of, do you support independence or not?

      Delete
    2. WATP FTP GSTQ RIP fundamentalist narrow back fascist

      Delete
  8. Seems one mixed up lady, vote Labour get Scottish Independence ?

    ReplyDelete
  9. I just can't see how she could now play any part in any future independence campaign,having voted for a political party which is vehemently opposed to that proposal.
    The conclusion must be that she supports that position.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Must it?

      If there was an independence referendum tomorrow, do you think Cat Boyd would vote No? Seriously?

      Or is it just possible that she ranks her support of radical socialism higher than her support of independence?
      Or are you saying that if you support independence, it trumps every other consideration, ever. And if it doesn't you're a Unionist?

      Delete
    2. Labour, radical socialism? Radically abstaining or voting with the Tories, for welfare cuts etc.
      Obviously Cat would vote indie, but to vote for a non indie supporting party, is doing things the hard way, to say the least.

      Delete
    3. I just can't see how she could now play any part in any future independence campaign,having voted for a political party which is vehemently opposed to that proposal.

      Those 'Road to Yes' videos must be really annoying then.

      Delete
    4. Nationalised industries, pay caps etc. Yes, I would say Labour is pretty radically socialist these days. Some people reckon we're on the verge of something akin to the Attlee government of 1945-51. The SNP can't really compete with that, not in the west of Scotland where socialism is held up as almost a religious ideal. Should the SNP try to out left Labour, they lose what remains of their rural seats.

      Delete
    5. agreed, actually if Kezia got replaced SNP would be in bigger trouble. Her inability to string a sentence together never mind a string of policies is a major weakness in Labour.

      Delete
    6. But the SNP has spent years saying Scottish Labour were a branch office. If that's true then no change of leadership required - she'll rubber stamp Corbynism, surely?

      Delete
  10. If she was male the people "defending" her wouldn't be. This is all about her fellow "indy-but" hacks defending the sisterhood.

    She's a clickbait hack who is interested in one thing - herself.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well said

      Delete
    2. Remember the same coven defended their feminist friend when she tarred half of Scotland as racists. Just because she was one of them.

      I don't see vonny haggarty strickland speaking up to defend the good Rev when he is smeared by lezzy kezzy. For similar reasons no doubt.

      Delete
    3. At least Vonny, Haggerty and Strickland (me) have the courage to put our names to our opinions. ''Lezzy Kezzy'' - really?

      Delete
  11. You were correct.

    ReplyDelete
  12. With Cat Boyd I think it was a case of "oh look, there's a shiny new thing over there, let's run in that direction..."
    A commitment to Scottish independence has to be long-term and the "lazy" commitment of folk like Cat Boyd has to be challenged.

    ReplyDelete
  13. The tides ebbing away,but it'll surely come in again ere lang.It'll bring Labour with it.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Leave party politics aside until after independance.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What does that even mean? Independence can't happen without party politics.

      Delete
    2. I think William perhaps means that all Indy supporters need to stick rock solid behind the SNP until independence is achieved, and not wander off to other parties because they offer attractive policies on education or whatever.

      For a while it looked as though this would happen. The yessers seemed to operate with a hive mind and single purpose. But then the SNP vote fell from 50% to mid 30s. Thank goodness. Had that kept up for much longer it would've been real grab hold of your pants stuff.

      Delete
    3. A hive mind, unlike those broad minded folks that voted Labour or Tory to stop a referendum vote....Just let that sink in, imagine votng for your arch enemy just so people get denied a vote on their independence....


      Thats your 5th columnists right there, the enemy within so to speak. The ones who want your country sucked dry and ran by half witted public schoolboys who's only qualification in life was fagging for bigger boys and folding towels in their family store...

      Thats what Aldo and his tribe gravitate towards, its a complex around feeling more secure when being 'looked after' by people with posh accents.....

      Forelock tugging mentalists who think the likes of bat shit Jill are speaking common sense.

      Delete
    4. Don't hold back RM - tell us how you really feel.

      Delete
  15. MSP'S, MP'S & MEP'S having a conversation! Dae ye think the dumb fuck electorate will ever twigg we are not all required!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. WATP FTP GSTQ RIP fundamentalist narrow back fascist

      Delete
    2. One nation, one parliament, one government, one law, one people, one man, one vote.

      Simplicity is always best.

      Delete
    3. Just love the cutting edge fundamentalist fascist impersonator who has not got the bottle to post with its own name. Typical Nazi piece of shit. Do go on scumbag.

      Delete
    4. One religion? One colour? One race?
      Your simplicity isn't always best, is it?

      The world is complicated. Simplicity is for people who lack the intellectual rigour to deal with it.

      Delete
    5. I never said anything about religion, colour or race. I pretty much said there should be a single governing system for the country, that everyone should have an equal say in voting for it, and that there should be one law that equally applies to everyone. The key here is equality and equal treatment. If you get that right, differences in ethnicity ought to be inconsequential.

      Delete
    6. Ah, I see.

      So when you said 'Simplicity is always best', what you meant was 'Simplicity is always best, except sometimes when it's not'.

      More accurate, I grant you. But hardly a great insight.

      Delete
    7. Aldo there doing his bit to remove that pesky Scottish parliament or maybe its a secret push for independence....

      Delete
    8. Nope. Simplicity is always best. Treat people equally and they will be equal. I didn't alter my proposal, merely explained to you why it deals with your concerns.

      Delete
  16. Definitely a conflict of interest from Cat Boyd. It would be a completely different story if there was any indication that the Labour party and or their branch office in Scotland, would be inclined to support an independnce referendum and even support independence for Scotland. A totally natural, normal state for a country, but no, not this one. Oil. Resources galore, not to mention the whiskey!

    It really is totally necessary for Scotland to throw off the shackles of WM rule, before they really ruin their 'north britain' region. We all know that if Scotland had nothing that the britnats wanted they would have cut Scotland adrift a long time ago. Cat Boyd seems to make at least some of her living from the independence issue, yet votes for a party that is clearly anti, anti SNP even to the point of supporting and preferring a Tory regime, at Holyrood and at WM!

    Not to mention Labour support for austerity for the poor, Trident, Hinkley point, HS2. Jeez, does C.Boyd agree with tuition fees and the bedroom tax? Because that is what Labour stand for, attacking our most vulnerable and making education unavailable to many. Bizzarre, perhaps, though some can be opportunists, it's just poss that Boyd has been honest. Unusual for any Britnat unionist quite frankly.

    Hetty, having to post comment as 'anon' for some v annoying reason.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That a nationalist can even bring himself to mention education is pretty laughable, to be frank. You guys have wrecked it in Scotland and it is a major factor in your decline. People were on board with using the SNP as a battering ram to achieve independence but then they saw that the children were suffering because of it.

      Delete
    2. Well said Aldo we support you till the end, No Surrender WATP FTP GSTQ

      Delete
    3. Unlike the children suffering benefit sanctions , bedroom tax and loss of child benefit...Children like those ones ?

      Delete
    4. No, I meant children unable to read, write or count because of your SNP's airy fairy approach to education.

      Delete
    5. Scottish education is really first rate and, jolly spiffing Aldo, old bean.

      Delete
  17. Scottish education is lovely. And the Scottish NHS, is wonderful.

    Cat Boyd, Kevin McKenna, Jim Sillars, Alex Neil and, all of the other red-tie labour ones, in the wrong end of the football park.

    When the purge comes, as it will, with lodged fifth-columnists. Up against the wall, no shirking. Paranoia, what paranoia.

    ReplyDelete
  18. The yes movement should push, that the government of an independent Scotland, of whatever party is elected ,would be able to set all taxes, collect all taxes, and spend all taxes for the benefit of the Scottish .people

    ReplyDelete
  19. Wee Knickerless on the National front page today. They have made her look almost pretty...

    ReplyDelete
  20. WATP FTP GSTQ,I love Teresa May, now that's a woman that could turn me straight.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Far too late for you impersonator Nat si bum bhoy.

      Delete
    2. State of this homophobe.

      Delete
    3. Arsium intactium, priest free!

      Delete
    4. The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, considers historic abuse cases to be a subject for
      "humour", pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

      Delete
  21. What you are missing is that independence is never going to happen and you are spending your days chasing unicorns and rainbows.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow. You can almost smell the impotent rage.

      Delete
    2. Aye the new Scottish Unicorn satellite, will be chasing rainbows. With Scottish Independence, that pot of gold.

      Delete