Friday, February 1, 2019

Voters backed the SNP so they would be given a choice on Scotland's future *at the time of Brexit* - not 10, 20 or 30 years later

I'm not sure how much impact Andrew Wilson's article in The National on indyref timing will have, because we all know where he's coming from, so his views are already factored in - a bit like Jim Sillars (not that there's much comparison between the two men in any other sense).  But I do think it's important to challenge the specific arguments for a potentially indefinite delay whenever they are put forward.

There's always a question mark over the motivations of those who wouldn't mind the indyref issue going away for the foreseeable future - is it because their real interest is in maintaining the SNP as a party of power within the devolved system (and they think pushing for independence makes that harder), or do they genuinely think that waiting will maximise the chances of Scotland becoming independent in the long run?  If we take Andrew at his word and assume it's the latter, what's missing from his article is an acknowledgement that using the mandate for a pre-2021 referendum isn't just about pragmatic considerations of when independence is most likely to be won.  It's also effectively about honouring a contract with voters, who were invited to vote SNP in both 2016 and 2017 on the specific basis that they would be given a choice on Scotland's future in the event of Brexit.  Giving people the choice at the time they asked for it, not at a far-distant time that might suit certain politicians better, should be regarded as a good thing in itself.  What people do with that choice is up to them.

Then we come to the hoary old point about whether we need to have 60% support for Yes in the polls before calling a referendum - an arbitrary and utterly unattainable target figure that is effectively an argument for never holding a referendum and for Scotland never becoming an independent country.  Andrew is rather elliptical on that point in his article, and that's probably intentional.  On the one hand he makes the entirely sensible observation that "the polls will lag until the question is ready to be put", which on the face of it is an acknowledgement that any large shifts of public opinion are only likely to occur after a referendum is actually called, and that therefore sub-50 (let alone sub-60) showings for Yes in the polls should not be used as an argument for delay.  But then he moves straight back to utopia-chasing by saying that "our focus must turn to those who need persuaded to get the coalition for Yes comfortably over 50% and towards 60% and beyond", which sounds very much like "we must not act until that happens", and which amounts to "we must not act at all".  Of course, he could be saying that we should be ready to push towards 60% support once the campaign is actually underway, but why would we need to do that, when 50% + 1 is enough?  It doesn't make sense.

So on balance this does look like another outing for the "60% threshold for calling an indyref".  If so, I'm not surprised Andrew shied away from stating it directly, because it really is pretty silly.

*  *  *

The Telegraph said yesterday that the SNP had secured a majority for their Budget with the help of the "hard-left Greens".  That echoes the words of Willie Rennie a few weeks ago, who said that the SNP were turning to the "hard-left" rather than reaching a sensible deal with a mainstream party like the Liberal Democrats (ahem).  But this ignores the fact that the SNP were open to doing a budget deal with pretty much any party, and that the unionist parties made that impossible by setting ludicrous conditions. The Lib Dems themselves, for example, laid down an absolute precondition that the SNP would have to temporarily take their push for independence off the table, which is a bit like telling the Lib Dems they have to temporarily stop believing in liberalism, or telling the Tories they have to temporarily stop believing in free-market capitalism.

It's really simple, guys: if you think a "hard-left" deal is bad for Scotland, negotiate in good faith and don't leave a deal with the Greens as the only remaining practical option.  The unionist parties are effectively the midwives of this deal.

*  *  *

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180 comments:

  1. "a bit like telling the Lib Dems they have to temporarily stop believing in liberalism"

    They did that themselves, after going into coalition with the Tories

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  2. There's another reason that the SNP have to call in indyref:

    Because they said they would.

    Their entire rise to power is based on them actually doing what they said they would. If they stop doing that then they turn into Labour, and will suffer the same fate.

    You did imply this, but I feel it needs stating more blatantly.

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    1. Yes. If they don't, they run the risk of voters feeling they are not the party to vote for if an indyref wanted. Under PR, this could quickly lose you votes to e.g. the Greens or a new 'SIP'. While PR means the overall share of MSPs for Yes parties is notably less likely to be heavily impacted (than say under FPTP), it would mean the SNP losing seats.

      This is also why 'refusal of a section 30' - or specifically any attempt to block a democratic move to independence by Westminster - would be England ending democracy in the UK. It would be exactly the same as making left wing labour or liberal democractic core policy illegal, i.e. people are unable to vote for it. The end of democracy.

      For the UK to be a democracy, Scots must be able to freely vote e.g. SNP with the latter able to hold an iref should they be able to get a parliamentary majority for it.

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  3. Yep. They said they'd do it, so they better just do it or else how are people meant to trust their manifesto pledges in future? The party leadership might think that's unfair but they (correctly by the way) regularly allude to the fact that Labour has routinely failed to come through on promised constitutional reform (such as abolition of the House of Lords).

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  4. We should be getting an announcement from the First Minister on the subject in the next couple of weeks, I believe.

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    1. Based on what?

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    2. As the First Minister herself said.

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    3. I sure hope "Progress Scotland" wasn't the announcement

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  5. The media continually go on about the lost SNP votes in GE 2017. I'm fairly sure that the reason that there was a decrease in the vote was due to the lack of commitment to an Indy Ref, people just couldn't be bothered to get out and vote for a parliament where we'll never be allowed to achieve anything of substance.
    If we don't get started soon, preferably with substantive back from the EU, then the "the times not right" brigade will have managed to achieve their own self fulfilling prophecy.
    People don't want to vote for sheep.

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    1. This is correct. The turnout shot up 7% in 2015 as Scots voted to have a say in the running of the UK, as promised in the 2014 unionist vow.

      Of course England dumped the vow immediately and treated Scots like lepers, with EVEL introduced to make officially the English parliament. So quickly Scots realized it was all shite. This landed the SNP a higher vote share in the 2016 Scottish elections + a good share for the Greens as the population asked for a new iref. When the 2017 English elections came around, loads of Scots SNP/Green voters didn't even bother to vote as their was no point, hence the turnout fell by 5%.

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  6. Mibbees 60%. Mibbees 50%+1. Keeps WM guessing. And that's no' a bad thing.

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  7. If the SNP do not call a referendum then I will be changing to the greens. Many of us who support the SNP do so by 'lending' our vote to them. There are many things the SNP have done that I do not particularly like but they get my vote as I want independence. take that away then I will go with my heart - I am sure others will.

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  8. If the unionist parties give up their stay with the union mantra then we might think about it ha ha ha no we won't bunch of diddies, our reason for being is independence take that away and we are no longer their.

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  9. Before Brexit came along and Westminster descended into the political madness that has ensued I may well have gone along with what Andrew Wilson touted in his column. Now, however, with No Deal on the horizon and the previously unthinkable prospect of Martial Law being a very real consideration I'm more inclined towards the "act now" school of thought.

    I'm of an age where if we rumble along gently hoping for optimum conditions and "cooperation" from outside agencies then independence is really no more than a pipe dream for me. So all things considered my view is make the effort and if we don't get the level of support that I anticipate the issue will at least have been tested for my lifespan.

    In that event I'm too old to be an attractive prospect as an emigrant to any country that I'd consider moving to, so I'll just have to sit back in my corner and shout at the telly.

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  10. I see that the Brits are getting all flustered over Gibraltar being described as a 'colony'; something it was until 2002.

    Of course Scotland isn't a colony. Not if it can freely choose independence at any time. That used to be via Scots MPs in london, now it's through Holyrood by convention.

    If a Section 30 is refused, then Scotland would be a colony:

    "A country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country.

    If Scotland is free to leave the UK, no matter how much we complain about Westminster, it's not a colony. Westminster could end devolution tomorrow and that wouldn't be colonial. Not if Scotland can just freely go for independence in response. If Scotland can freely leave the UK, then it is ultimately in control of itself; it's just chosen to let London run lots of stuff and crap on it from a great height as it sees fit.

    Nope, we are only a colony if we can't freely vote to leave.

    If a Section 30 is refused, Scotland officially becomes an English colony, or at least England would be a foregin colonial aggressor trying to make Scotland a colony. There would be no arguing otherwise.

    Unionists better absolutely hope that, just as in 2014, a Section 30 is granted automatically upon request. That preserves the union. Refusal ends the union and imposes colonialism.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Scottish Loyalist AssociationFebruary 1, 2019 at 6:58 PM

      scottish skier we know where you come from! You gave the game away.
      Arlene was speaking sense in Kesh Fermanagh today and exposed the EU and ROI conspiracy.

      Delete
    2. It can, Scotland can hold a referendum tomorrow and become Independent from that if that is what the electorate decide that, no section 30 needed. Or it could declare UDI. Of course the international community might not recognize a Indy Scotland formed from a non section 30 ref, or UDI but that's a separate matter.

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    3. True. But if England refused to recognise such a move, arguing it was 'illegal' and that London rule should continue, then that would be England trying to make Scotland a colony.

      If England had absolutely no objection to Scotland's UDI, there's no obvious reason why any other country would object.

      So refusal of a Seciton 30 would represent a move to Scotland being treated as a colony by England instead of partner in union.

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    4. You have already said Scotland is a colony of England, so how could it be a move towards a colony. Your hatred of the English is so apparent that it is blinding you Padraig skier.

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    5. Gibraltar was a strategic necessity in the fight against the Nazis and your Italian Catholic fascist friends. The gateway to the Med and shipping routes. OK Padraig skier you have been knobled.

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    6. You need to learn English; the language of the Brits. I quote:

      "If Scotland is free to leave the UK, no matter how much we complain about Westminster, it's not a colony."

      It's only if a Section 30 is refused - i.e. England ends democracy and claims Scotland can't vote legally for independence until such time as it might grant permission - do we enter colony status, complete with troops on the ground at various bases.

      I've said numerous times I don't believe this will happen; it didn't in 2014 for all the bluster. However, it is unionists who keep saying that Westminster can say no, i.e. they are claiming Scotland is a colony. Seemed to me it was just a formality last time to keep everthing legally tight, so that's not true. Let's hope the nats like me are right and the unionists are wrong eh! Your beloved union would die instantly if it's not voluntary.

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    7. Padraig skier calls on all foreign migrants to bear arms against Brit Scots.

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    8. While I imagine you'd rather there wasn't another iref GWC, I'm sure in your heart you'd not see democracy ended to prevent one. The unity comes from people voting for your union, not from being held in it against their will. I'm sure the 55% in 2014 swelled you with pride, but that 55% is no more the day a Section 30 is refused.

      The 55% in 2014 only stands so long as the people of Scotland freely choose not to reverse it. They day they are told they can't, is the day that result ceases to be the will of the people. It is wiped from history and the dream of British unity dies.

      Refusal of a Section 30 would be a knife through your heart, not mine.

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    9. Padraig skier I welcome the right to vote and accept the results. Unfortunately you and the EU criminal. Org do not. I do not accept voting every other week until the fascists get their way.

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    10. Lady Sylvan HermitFebruary 2, 2019 at 8:10 AM

      Gosh. Cordelia seems to have been quaffing of the loquacity juice. Agitated and far from her usual tranquil self.

      Delete
  11. Seems like a while since last Indy poll. And that a lot of brexshit has happened in that while. Any indication of when the next poll be coming along?

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    1. Big Maggie MushroomFebruary 1, 2019 at 11:00 PM

      Sandy's sister-in-law thinks it'll be in April.

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  12. The SNP have to be looking at the budget thing and thinking that if they don't get an outright majority in the next Holyrood election, or at least very close to one as per currently, then they will find being the governing party nigh on impossible.

    If we went back to a "normal" situation of the Scottish Parliament (which isn't supposed to be about parties with majorities) with, say, the SNP the biggest party but only by a handful of seats then it's clear that the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems are all going to line up against them regardless of the situation. There's not going to be any sort of "well this PR system means everyone needs to work together to some extent" collegiate approach going on. The SNP will find it very difficult to get anything done even if they can form a government.

    So in that respect hanging about trying to get more mandates for independence from Scottish parliament elections seems a very risky business indeed.

    Having said that the words from the First Minister recently have sounded somewhat more bullish about indyref2 recently, right down to saying (if I remember rightly) that she planned an update soon pretty much regardless of where we were with Brexit, which sounded more positive.

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  13. Maybe my memory is failing me, but in, 2014 Scotland called the Indyref and only then did London offer the Edinburgh agreement.
    The same could happen again. Meanwhile I think the last 2 years have been a lost opportunity to inform and Educate the people. The same old scare stories will be attempted. We could have headed off and discredited most of the pro-Union arguments already.
    Even now questions such as currency which was a weakness in 2014 remain unanswered.
    We can only keep faith with the Scottish government and that the continually incompetent UK government keeps on its present path, and hope this leads us to Indyref2.
    A historic decision will need to be made in just 8 weeks time.

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    1. You had five years to spell out everything from currency to NATO and failed. All you seem certain about is selling out Scotland to the EU masters.

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    2. More drunken screeching from poor embittered Cordelia.

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    3. "All our 31 neighbours are wrong and stupid undemocratic fascists! Us 'now is not the time' Brenglish are super clever and democratic though; it's not us with the tinfoil hats, it's the other 31 EU+EEA members!

      This reminds me of the (solid 'British') family that used to run the farm our cottage is on. We're one of around 7 houses / familes in a wee hamlet surrounded by the farm lands. Quite a variety of ages and sizes, from single younger folks, to families with kids to some older retired. We all get on really well; really lovely little community.

      However, the farmer called us all neighbours from hell. He'd sold all the cottages to make some cash, but then was totally affronted that us owners acted they owned them, not him. And we were all 'neighbours from hell!' All of us LOL. Everybody was a neighbour from hell apart from his family.

      This is so the UK right now.

      He used to wander around pished ranting to himself as well come to think of it.

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    4. Maybe the farmer moved in the green inky circles Cordelia aspires to.

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  14. England is a failed state ,just have to wait until the economy reaches the same state of chaos as WM. What a shitshow there will be when 19th English jingoism contacts 21st century economics.

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  15. Poor jacques the trebled named frog bum boy. The Greeks got the 21st century economics lesson from the frogs and Herman Merkel. Food kitchens etc. An old nation taken tae ra cleaners and on their knees. This will not happen tae Scotland. Up yer kilts Jock crawlers.

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    1. Now this is the Cordelia we've come to know. Another night's heavy drinking brings her round to her favourite topics. My question is why would a lesbian be so fixated on "bum boys"? She's a strange one.

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    2. Poor Cordelia does seem to fixate on certain topics.
      It needs help but every time we recommend it, Cordelia responds with a screech of homophobic and sectarian bile.

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    3. The Greeks still have a much higher basic old age pension than the UK

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    4. Mrs May should tell Nickerless Drudgone and her nat si bosses in Brussels and Berlin, We're having none of your parlay vouz. We beat you on the beeches and now your paying the price.

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    5. Cordelia the raging xenophobe and its World War II fetish, everyone.

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  16. I was talking to a lady of 92 yesterday - she has been waiting for independence all her life. Some of us do not have the time to wait around for clement weather before having another referendum. Get on with it - that is what the SNP is meant to be for.

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    1. I have been waiting for the Glasgow Airport Rail Link to be reintroduced since the Glasgow hating Nat sis cancelled the project. They are now talking about Pods. The Greens should have demanded the reintroduction but just crawled up the Nat si erses.

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    2. Cordelia's hangover must be nipping this morning. No wonder it's screaming with impotent rage again.

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  17. Replies
    1. What's BB and what are you waiting for?

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    2. The English Taxpayer has been subsidising your pension for 23 years.

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    3. Poor Cordelia. What a state to get itself in. By the time it gets its pension the Tories will insist it harvests the fields in exchange...

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    4. "The English Taxpayer has been subsidising your pension for 23 years."

      10% of the Scottish population are English, which makes this comment very anti-English, i.e. calling them subsidy junkies.

      But it's not suriprising as the British are anti-English, anti-Scots, and anti-Irish. Rather obviously. You only need to see how the Brit loyalists from Ulster are happy to blackmail the English taxpayer for a £Billion to see what I mean.

      The Scots/English/Welsh/Irish nats by contrast don't want a penny from their cousins in the other home nations. The subsidy junkies are the brits; it's what they vote for!

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    5. English Bob - your remark doesn't make sense. The UK pensioners all receive the same pension from the from the same purse - that's what I believed was the unionist position. If you are going to talk crap at least make it consistent crap.

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    6. Cordelia doesn't do consistent.
      That's its entertainment value.

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  18. A non issue. Pensions are paid for by the pensioners over their working lifetime. This was tried in the first Indyref.
    The DWP confirmed then that pensions to Scots would be paid as usual should Scots vote for independence.
    Makes a good scare story though.
    I'm sure you'll keep using it, you've got little else this time.

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    1. Cordelia's practising for its interview with SiU. It has ambitions to be the lead spokesrant for indyref2.

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    2. Sort of, your NI payments don't directly fund your pension, they fund pensions that are currently being drawn and then younger generations fund your pension.

      But you are right, SNP/Scot Government have said on a number of occasions that they would fund Pensions in a Indy Scotland to the same level (at least) as they would be if Scotland remained in the UK.

      Of course it would be down to an Indy Scotland to fund these pensions, the rUK would not fund pensions drawn in another country.

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    3. Cordelia working alongside leading Tory, ex-Lab MP Pamela Nash. They should mine a rich vein of comedy together. Like Annie Wells meets Helen Lidl.

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    4. I think there would be more entertainment value in partnering Cordelia with one of the Tory peers and watching it become all deferential and cringy.

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    5. I repeat, The DWP will be liable for all current state pensions after we gain independence.
      Therafter the SG will pay new scottish pensions.
      Before the current term 'welfare' was adopted it was called national insurance which is not a benefit but a right.

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    6. Also the cost of pensions has been wrongly included in the supposed annual deficit figure post independence.
      But who trusts Brithmetic after 'Millions for the NHS' promise!

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  19. Ah the wonders of Brexit.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47096621

    Brexit: UK plans new product safety mark for 'no deal' scenario

    So, British manufacturers will now need to set up production lines to make two versions of exactly the same product while all the neighbours only need to make one version. That will do wonders for already dire UK productivity.

    "But it's just a different stamp, packaging, user manual, website description etc!" I hear a brexiter shout! Yes, it would be just this list of extra costs if the product itself is made to EU standards, as required for export. So no need to make two version of the actual product itself bar the mark of confirmity. But if the product is made to meet EU standards, then that means the EU is still making British laws, but now the UK doesn't have a say in the manufacturing standards its companies are having to conform to.

    Anyway, by reducing wages British companies can cover the costs of all this. Something the Tories will be only too eager to do I imagine.

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    1. Always a problem when markets diverge, an Indy Scotland would have the same problem. But to be honest most companies don't exclusively export to EU countries, so would already have the infrastructure built in.

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    2. Yes, which makes it much more sensible for Scotland to stay in the EU post-indy. After all, the EU is its biggest foreign export market, having recently taken over from 'the rest of the world'.

      https://blogs.gov.scot/scotlands-economy/2018/12/06/eu-taking-more-than-half-of-scotlands-exports/

      EU taking more than half of Scotland’s exports

      As a total share, the rUK is increasingly less important to Scotland.

      In terms of good to the UK, electrical power, oil and gas are Scotland's primary exports. There is conformity stamp issues for these obviously!

      Certainly, brexit is a headache for Scots manufacturers who export to the rUK; Brexit hurts them just as it hurts English companies. Independence certainly doesn't solve conformity issues for Scots companies, but it makes their lives variably easier. Either way they'll have to double stamp if the want to sell to the EU and the rUK, but at least in Scotland they'll have certainty.

      The UK is entering a period of new trade treaty negotiations which could last decades. We've not even started on the EU trade deal yet never mind all the others. As it stands, we're facing No deal for years until a new one can be agreed (only loons suggest we'll never have a trade deal with all 31 of our neighbours ever, so while the No deal economic disaster could last a decade or more, it's not going to be forever).


      In the meantime, the UK will just have standards identical to EU ones. The EU market is far too big by comparison for this to not be the case. Other countries will not sign deals with the UK unless the UK follows EU standards.

      So, an indy Scotland would be manufacturing to the CE standard for the EU and the UK, just stamping a parochial wee meaningless but costly 'UK' stamp on goods going south. However, Scotland would at least have a say on the standards as an EU member while England/Wales would not (N. Ireland is going to reunify).

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    3. After all, the EU is its biggest foreign export market, having recently taken over from 'the rest of the world'.

      Of course rUK continues to be the biggest market for Scottish goods with it having a 20% bigger share than EU and rest of world combined.

      Wanting to have closer ties with a block that you sell 42% less goods to would be Brexiter levels of stupidity.

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    4. "Wanting to have closer ties with a block that you sell 42% less goods to would be Brexiter levels of stupidity."

      Says someone who supports Scotland staying in a brexiting UK run by Brexiters.

      Righto.

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    5. But seriously, what kind of prize idiot says brexiters are utterly stupid, then proposes Scotland try to remain dependent on brexiters for its economy.

      It would be utterly mad to focus on trade with the UK forward. Totally nuts. Scotland has to slash it's trade with the UK as much as possible. This is going to happen by itself of course as the English economy goes into a major brecession caused by the 'stupid brexiters'.

      "But most of our trade is with titanic, and they were f'n idiots to go so fast they hit the iceberg, but now they're sinking we should stay on board."

      Try arguing that on the doorsteps when people are facing empty supermarket shelves and can't get their medicine.

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    6. The lifeboat isn't going to be easy, but I'd rather face the stormy seas in that than go down with HMS Britannia and her 'stupid' drunken racist crew.

      The Great British Brexodus gathers pace...

      ---

      https://news.sky.com/story/nissan-casts-further-gloom-on-car-industry-with-x-trail-blow-11625885

      The Japanese carmaker will say next week that it is abandoning plans to build the X-Trail in Sunderland, Sky News learns.

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    7. 1) I'm nutural, I will vote for what i think is best for the country at the time of the vote.
      2) You focus were your main sales are, if you sell most to the UK you focus on the UK, this is basic stuff. Even in worst case scenarios exports to the UK would only drop by 5-10% and that still puts it way ahead of the EU or ROW.
      3) Its neutrals like me who will decide if Scotland becomes independent or not, we are the swing votes so probably not best to call us idiots just because we don't default to Scotland good England bad to the answer for anything.

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    8. In what way?
      If your exports to rUK drop 10% due to Brexit, becoming independent doesn't change that, they still drop 10%. As I said this is basic stuff.

      As for saying i'll make up my mind when it is time to vote, this is what neutrality is. Saying now that you would defiantly vote either yes or know when we don't even know basic facts such as hard or soft Brexit or even if there is going to be a Brexit at all seems the definition of being biased.

      Delete
    9. Personally, I'd prefer my country to be able to have a say in such things as trade negotiations, compliance regulations etc. As it stands, what is happening is completely out of Scotland's hands, and my vote utterly useless as result. When it was discovered Scotland could legally have a say on some areas due to devolution, England immeadiately power grabbed these areas so it could get a better deal for itself. Shit, with EVEL can't even elect a UK cabinet member any more, as Scots MPs can't vote on English matters (so Scots are barred from electing the PM, chancellor etc).

      Meanwhile, we watch Ireland with 26 mates standing behind it and a full veto on the coming trade negotiations with the UK. It was really clever and saw that having too many eggs in the UK basket case was dumb as fk. As a result, it trades much more widely so will be hit by the brexit clusterfuck much less.

      It's an absolute no brainer for me.

      Let the country next door run my country or the government I elect do this? Hmmm, tough one. Forgive me if I do what normal people all over the globle do and opt for independence.

      Delete
  20. One point I wish to contest. The "Lib Dems" in the UK have abandoned liberalism long ago, liberalism - political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual.

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  21. skier is Soros funding you. I go to the pub come back and you have commented. I go for a crap come back and you have commented. I go to my scratcher wake up and you have commented. You are the best thing that ever happened for us Brit Scots. Cheers chin chin.

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    1. Just a wee reminder for our SiU lurkers; this is your prime candidate for spokestroll at indyref2.
      Put this on Distorting Scotland with a bottle of Buckie and watch it go...

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    2. You must sit in your own smug self styled smugness thinking what a wonderful chap I am wishing I could pat myself on the back.

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    3. Poor embittered Cordelia thinks we're all as narcissistic as it is.

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    4. She's a real oddball. Most fun after she's downed a couple of bottles. A bit mawkish when hungover before the new booze kicks in.

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    5. I dunno. The rage is often greater when Cordelia's hung over, although the typo rate renders most of its ravings barely intelligible.

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    6. I love this proposed Scottish bum stop idea. Scotsmen are useless and just like talking about nookie. I want a beeg French Man in mee. Please stay in the EU.

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    7. Quarter to seven and she's well on the way to aggressive booze-fuelled ranting and raving. Looking forward to the World According To Cordelia around 10 or 11.

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  22. What I don't get is the stubborn refusal of the polls to change despite the increasingly mange-ridden appearance of the UK.

    What is it about the fact we are ruled by Ruritarian half wits that does not move the needle?

    I know from personal experience how distressed reasonable-minded British nationalists are at this moment, why has the, for me frankly intoxicating idea of independence not converted more of them?

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    1. The polls show an 'overwhelming majority' for independence if brexit goes ahead with May's deal (53% Yes), with an epic landslide 59% Yes in the case of no deal. And that's from rather Yes unfriendly panelbase.

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  23. .... James, as eloquent & factual as ever ... mair power tae yer pen ( or keyboard !!)

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    1. James, blowjob imminent from Anonymous. Make sure yer wee ma has washed yer underwear.

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    2. Cordelia, there, sharing entirely too much about its inner fantasy life.
      The broken mess has never experienced praise so it's confused and angered by it.

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    3. You never complained before.

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    4. Why would I complain about Cordelia's bizarre gibberish when, instead, I can mock it without mercy?

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  24. Dear god.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47095011

    Brexit: Care home and hospital caterers stockpiling food

    While heathly adults should get by ok, a lack of food and medicines may well kill the young, elderly and infirm. So, let's not even consider 'no deal' please brexiters. Murdering people over this isn't an option.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Colostomy bags to be emptied once a week and vegetables forbidden. Face masks and ether issued. Palative care homes issue imminent death warning. Rich Scottish pensioners move to German holiday camps in Poland. Anything is better than leaving the EU.

      Delete
    2. Poor Cordelia thinks it's going to be the Home Front all over again.
      It's been watching too many old films.

      Delete
    3. I say, chaps, let's dig a tunnel under the Channel and escape to France before John Mills can say "Tally Ho". Blighty's gone AWOL.

      Delete
  25. @britainelects
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 41% (+4)
    LAB: 34% (-6)
    LDEM: 8% (+1)
    UKIP: 7% (-)
    GRN: 4% (-)
    via @OpiniumResearch, 30 Jan - 01 Feb
    Chgs. w/ 18 Jan

    -------

    Labour have reached the lowest I've ever recorded in my Scottish subsample averages.

    Supporting English nationalist Tory brexit is killing them in Scotland.

    Corbyn standing shoulder to shoulder with Bozo and Mogg is just too much for leftie soft unionists north of Gretna I guess.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 41% SNP + 1% Green + 1% Plaid in the Scottish subsample, and that's with 51% of them having voted Leave in 2016 (not weighted to Scotland), i.e. the sample is very pro-british/brexit.

      Delete
    2. Scottish skier is not a person but a con blabber ation of various Scottish and Irish pre Reformation British haters and EU erse lickers secretly fund by the Vatican bum boys.

      Delete
    3. Cheers, Cordelia. Never say die! Wheee!

      Delete
    4. Do not worry Iain you will get a cup a mulk at ma door when we leave. I hear the GOV is issuing ration books. 2oz a butter a week and black oot curtains.

      Delete
    5. Cordelia's looking forward to the mass WWII Home Front re-enactment, at least until it's made to howk tatties in exchange for its pension.
      (Make Someone Else) Dig for Victory!

      Delete
    6. Cordelia is an unsung heroine of Brexit and our precious union. Future generations shall say "Carve Her Name With Pride".

      Delete
    7. Cordelia will accept any humiliation and degradation to defend the Precioussss....

      Delete
  26. The international community is looking on at the backstop debate and asking 'Why is England demanding to decide the future of N. Ireland when the UN peace deal GFA clearly states that this for the people of the N&S of Ireland to decide together alone?'

    England does not get to decide whether it is sticking to the GFA. Nor does Ireland or N. Ireland. It is all the neighbours that decide this, and these that apply the sancitons for breaching it. Not letting the people of N. Ireland decide on the backstop themselves is a very obvious breach.

    #pariahstate

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Often wonder why you want referendums. Is it something to do with the results you do not like? And this so called backstop is a farce and yet you support it. The Belfast Agreement if honoured by both sides settles the issue. Unfortunately the ROI is no longer a nation state and is governed by the EU.

      Delete
    2. Cordelia's hangover is particularly raging today, folks.
      Hic.

      Delete
  27. All vehicles on the Dublin Ring Road heading up the NI to Belfast are clocked.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Plink. Plink. Another drink.
      Get another one inside.

      Cordelia's on the sauce early today. The real laughs should start by teatime. Sit back and laugh, everyone. She's going for it!

      Delete
    2. The Chuckle Twin Bros Anon and Iain are soo funny ye pish yer troosers.

      Delete
    3. Cordelia, there, sharing entirely too much detail about its medical issues. Cordelia should really see a doctor about that, as well as its many other requirements.
      Hic.

      Delete
    4. Alcoholic and incontinent? Poor Cordelia does the lot. I wonder will she go for the Triple Crown of afflictions?

      Delete
    5. Poor Nat sis completely imploding with intestinal disorders and related brain malfunctions.

      Delete
    6. Yeh. Porrigde monkeys snd think there the bee's knees. Haha ha ha. Tests! Were the beeskneed! Ha.

      Delete
    7. Poor Cordelia really tied one on last night. I hope it didn't hurt itself before it passed out.

      Delete
    8. Well, well. Cordelia lasted a lot longer on the booze last night than I would have thought humanly possible. I'm not 100% sure what point she was trying to make at ten to four this morning, but I'm sure it was fascinating.

      Delete
    9. I'm not sure Cordelia knew what it meant, either.
      Just the usual drunken incoherence; we should consider ourselves fortunate we were spared another round of homophobic and sectarian bile.

      Delete
    10. It's a shame for Cordelia she wasn't around getting boozed up in Alabama in the 1950s. She'd of loved it.

      Delete
    11. Cordelia there, telling us more than we ever needed to know about its inner fantasy life.

      Delete
    12. Women in the mines of Alabama? Cordelia's lived life on the edge. Maybe that's why she relies on the bottle to blot out those terrible memories. Poor Cordelia.

      Delete
    13. Cordelia does appear to have lived a colourful if degraded life if its bizarre fixations are anything to go by.

      Delete
  28. Looks like the economy may well have already stalled or entered contraction.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47127927

    UK economy ‘stalls’ over Brexit and global economy fears

    The UK's service sector stagnated last month, with new orders falling for the first time in two-and-a-half years, according to the IHS Markit/CIPS purchasing managers' index (PMI).

    The figures showed a reading of 50.1 in January, lower than December's 51.2.

    IHS Markit's Chris Williamson said the results indicated that the UK economy "is at risk of stalling or worse".

    He said this was because of growing Brexit uncertainty coinciding with a wider slowdown in the global economy.



    The SNP won a landslide in 2011 on the back of high unemployment and a double dip UK government caused recession. By the time 2014 came, the economy was in recovery and unemployment falling. This was probably the biggest boost the pro-UK campaign could get, and it probably just saved the union.

    For #iref2, the UK needs a new economic boom to have any hope of victory. However, as it stands, we are heading for potential contraction.

    Rising umployment (it's been edging up in England) is an incredibly hard sell, particulary as wages have never recovered to pre-2008 levels.

    As the old saying goes, 'It's the economy stupid!'. Unionists should pray that we are heading for a major boom because without that, they're in serious s**t. Brexit is already hurting them big style never mind a significant economic hit.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No recession in 2011, last time UK was in recession was 2008-2009

      Delete
    2. "The SNP won a landslide in 2011 on the back of high unemployment and a double dip UK government caused recession."

      Hm, massive recession #1 ended in 2010 which is, well, not long before 2011. Then talk began of second recession began to heat up in 2011 (which saw two very weak quarters), and this duly arrived in 2012; giving us the imfamous 'double dip'*.

      Seems to me that means 2011 was 'riding the back of a double dip recession'.

      Unemployment was rising throughout the period in question, peaking in 2012 at 8.5%. Only after this did contractions stop and unemployment start to fall as the recovery proper took hold ahead of 2014.

      So my post stands.

      ---
      *https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17836624

      UK economy in double-dip recession

      Although it turned to not be a recession, but two seperate contraction events in the same year.

      Delete
    3. Jimmy Corbett fae the BellshillFebruary 5, 2019 at 2:58 PM

      I know what the infamous "double dip" is, and I'll bet you do too. You'll be claiming next you were touched by the "furry finger". And you think tou can run a country. Gimme a break, Hamish.

      Delete
    4. Hm, massive recession #1 ended in 2010

      Except it ended in 2009 ;)

      Delete
    5. 2010 was the first year to not to show recession after the 2008-09 recession. The 2008-9 recession had ended by 2010. By 2010, the 2009-10 recession had ended. 2010 saw the first full year of growth after the 2008-2009 recession. In 2010, the 2008-9 recession had finished.

      But since my post was completely right in that the SNP rode to victory on the back of a serious UK economic situation, then Yes saw this reversed into an uphill struggle against a recovery, let's just be pedantic about wording eh!


      Unless we see a boom going forward, the unionists will face the uphill struggle this time, and they're starting from 53% this time tomorrow (not nearly 70%), and from behind if brexit goes ahead.

      In dire economic situations, people always look for a way out. The more dire, the more likely they are to opt for more 'radical' changes.

      If the UK economy goes into recession again yet wages have never recovered from the last one, then folks can conclude the UK is a failure and it's time to try something new. They damn near concluded that last time.

      Unionists need a major economic boom now and one that lasts for 5-10 years at least.

      Delete
    6. While the financial crisis was aknowledged as being a wider problem and therefore somewhat outwith the UK's control, brexit is 100% at the door of the UK union.

      Every single job loss arising from it etc will be directly due to Scotland being in the union with England. No question about it.

      It won't be blamed on the Tories, because brexit isn't just about them - Jeremy's right there with them on it! It won't be blamed on the wider world economy because everyone knows brexit is its own wee special great British fuck up. Nope, the business/worker brexodus that's now well underway....the coming major recession leading to long term decline...the unending political instability...the rise of extreme right...all the things the UK government is warning us about... will all be the direct result of UK unionism.

      And there's only one way out of this in the eyes of the electorate.

      Which is why polls show a Yes if brexit goes ahead, and that's while people are only just getting the first little whiffs of the shit as it flies at 100 miles an hour towards the industrial scale screw-up fan. Just wait until the crap actually impacts!

      Delete
    7. skier, recessions and bank crisis is not in the realm of politicians who just accept the stock markets and banks who really run the countries but pretend they do.

      Delete
  29. Hey skier the working class are always in recession. They get the scraps when there is not supposed to be a recession and fucked when there is.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Poor Cordelia the Dreary Heil sockpuppet thinks it's representative of the working class.
      The angrier it gets, the funnier it is.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous, your political analysis is beyond the vomit bucket.

      Delete
    3. Cordelia, there, telling us more than we need to know about its medical issues.

      Delete
  30. The rights of Irish in N. Ireland are fully protected by the GFA. These are not British people, but Irish N. Irish living in the land of their birth where their families have live going back into history. The GFA reflects this, guaranteeing their rights under a range of European conventions.

    So, as it stands, an Irish person either side of the border can freely marry and live with another EU citizen. No visas needed. This is protected by the GFA.

    But what about post-brexit? Irish in N. Ireland must still be able to bring their e.g. french wife freely to live with them. Visas can't be demanded (never mind refused) by the English gestapo as that would create a 'hard border', in this case for the free movement of Irish citizens and their families.

    But this needs to go further, as we can't stop Irish people bringing extended family into N. Ireland freely. And they should not have to be married either; if an Irishman has a French girlfriend, she should be able to live and work in the north visa free or the GFA is broken as it creates a hard border, taking away the rights of Irish N. Irish.

    What about the EU friends of Irish people in N. Ireland? They should be able to travel freely into the N. for dinner with Irish friends without any visa? If they need a visa when they did not previously, then there must now be a hard border. The GFA is broken by England.

    Which is why this issue cannot be resolved, even by technology. Tech might solve the trade, maybe, but it cannot solve the people issue. If the Polish friend of Irishman needs a visa to vist the Irishman's house, then that is the English gestapo now monitoring the Irishman and restricting his rights with a hard border.

    And if full free movement is allow for N. Ireland, it must be allowed for Scotland..or Wales..if these wish it. It would be a racist breach of rights to give special advantages to one nationality in the UK in terms of who they can live with etc but not give that to others. Unless we are to argue that N Ireland is 'different because of the violence', in which case we justify violence to obtain better rights.

    This is the can of worms that brexit opens. It can't be fixed either; Brexiters can only lose in court on this one. Only staying in the single market with full free movement can preserve the GFA and the UK union as a whole.

    It is that or the border moves to it's rightful place in the Irish sea.

    https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/sites/default/files/TheGoodFridayAgreementBrexitandRights_0.pdf

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Basic literacy isn't really your strong point, is it sonny?

      Clown.

      Delete
    2. skier, It is the Belfast Agreement made in Hillsborough Castle. Why do you insist on the Good Friday Agreement. Not all Irish or British are Christians. Maybe you have come under the influence of Pope Blair 1st.

      Delete
    3. The GFA agreement / Anglo-Irish agreement / British Irish Agreement / Belfast Agreement is between England [Britain*] and Ireland].

      England [and therefore the UK via Westsminster] is a theocracy where unelected bishops sit in its upper parliament chamber making laws, while the head of state is also head of the 'official' church; the church of England. As a result, Good Friday (19th April) is a public holiday. The agreement was concluded on good Friday.

      Scotland by contrast is secluar; there are no unelected clergy in Holyrood nor is the head of state head of any Scottish church.

      One of the reasons I support independence is to completely remove the link between church and state that being part of the UK union involves.

      [*Kingdom of England + conquered Wales = Britain, add Scotland and you have 'Great Britain'].

      Delete
    4. Nope, before the union you had the Kingdoms of England (which Included Wales) and Scotland.

      You may be thinking of Britons which inhabited what is now England and Wales before the Anglo Saxon Kingdoms.

      Of course there is also the Geographic area British Isles, which still includes Ireland and surrounding irelands around the UK.

      The GFA agreement was signed between the UK and Ireland.

      Delete
    5. 'Great Britain' is the larger (Greater / Great) of the two main islands of the geographical 'British Isles'. This geographic name gives the name to the UKofGB; the union between Scotland and England, circa 1707->.

      ‘Britain’ was the geographic name originally given by the Romans to England & Wales, Scotland being Caledonia.

      The current peace process began with signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, 1985. Scotland isn’t 'Anglo'; that being England, i.e. the English-Irish Agreement, 1985.

      Here is is; the ‘English’ part right on the front page. Very obvious this is not ‘the UK’!

      https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/alldfawebsitemedia/ourrolesandpolicies/northernireland/Anglo-Irish-Agreement-1985.pdf

      The Anglo-Irish peace process that followed this culminated in the GFA/Belfast agreement:

      https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/alldfawebsitemedia/ourrolesandpolicies/northernireland/good-friday-agreement.pdf

      Note the lack of a new name this time, as it is simply a continuation of the English-Irish peace process. It has been referred to as the ‘British-Irish’ agreement, which relates it to the Kingdom of England (and Wales). The term ‘Great’ has never been used to include Scotland.

      Because foreign affairs are a ‘reserved matter’, i.e. not dealt with by devolved parliaments or secretaries of state / home nation offices previous to this, then these agreements were signed by the ‘UK government’ acting on behalf of England.

      If Scotland were in conflict with another country (e.g. some legal conflict under Scots law, such as concerning a sea border), the same would apply. Sturgeon would not sign the peace deal, May would, as this is a reserved matter.

      Remember, only British/English terrorists have attacked Scotland, never the IRA. The latter only attacked the ‘enemy country’, i.e. England.

      Delete
  31. David Francis has now emerged from a Coma but does not know the Suffering General is now renamed the Queen Elizabeth. He could be a Unionist now!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Once a Tit, always a Tit, sonny.

      You haven't changed.

      Delete
    2. You could have been CEO of the new Murdoch Scottish Sky News Chanel telling the truth.

      Delete
    3. Cordelia's hangover must have been causing it tremendous pain this morning for it to have retched up this level of incoherent gibberish.

      Delete
    4. She's excelled herself today. Lots of words but no apparent connection between any of them. Random word association? Poor Cordelia. Must have been some session last night.

      Delete
  32. This is the point where Cordelia laughed along with the furniture, screamed at the cat for voting Remain, then fell into its favourite cupboard.
    It then fell asleep, clutching its knees and sobbing with unrequited love for whichever rancid gammon was ranting on the TV last night.
    Still, it'll be back today, raging hangover and all, to tell us more about its bizarre tastes and warped prejudices in far too much detail.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous, I am pleased tae be yer therapist, just let it all oot.

      Delete
    2. Poor Cordelia.
      So damaged.
      So very funny.

      Delete
    3. QED.
      I do find it amusing that someone as obviously damaged as Cordelia would offer to be anyone's therapist, though.

      Delete
    4. What Cordelia does in its own time is its own business. Sadly, it chooses to share explicit details with the rest of us.

      Delete
  33. Tusk is merely stating the bald truth - Brexit has been nothing but a long, sad, ignorant and vexatious LIE from start to finish, promoted and led by THE biggest bunch of duplicitous morons ever seen in these islands.

    Tusk is only openly stating what the leaders/govt of just about every single country in the World is thinking, apart from that other noted moron in the White House.

    As usual, though, the millionaires/billionaires who are heading the Brexshit Shambles have ALREADY moved most of their wealth into Europe or elsewhere, to completely avoid the catastrophic fall-out and only the poor, wee, deluded "common people" will have to carry the can with a rapid increase in unemployment, food shortages/rationing, medicine scarcity, needless restrictions on travel and even the possibility of Martial Law and Curfews.

    You can rest assured, though, that the Slugs who were "in charge" of this utter mess, will NOT.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Cordelia's looking forward to the martial law.
      At least, I think it is; its last boozy rant on the subject referred to "marital law" do it's difficult to tell.

      Delete
  34. Replies
    1. That's Cordelia's way of confirming she's a lesbian. She's already talked about her wife. Good for her. Out and proud.

      Delete
    2. What Cordelia does in its own time is its own business. Sadly, it chooses to share explicit details with the rest of us.

      Delete
  35. Nothing really changes with you, does it dummy.

    You were a plank when I was last on here and you are still a plank.....only thicker.

    The sooner that you and your fellow pieces of British Nationalist branch-ends reach the end of your natural span, the better for Scotland.

    The youngsters see you for the WM Crawlers you really are.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Cordelia is a good and faithful servant of the Empah, no matter how often it's made to debase and embarrass itself in the Empah's service.

      Delete
  36. Replies
    1. You've never had one,sonny.

      You are one.

      Delete
    2. Misspelling there, Cordelia. You've written "it" where you meant "I". Glad to help, dear.

      Delete
  37. Does the Ross Thomson incident mean UK unionism's on the back burner for the foreseeable?

    Asking for a friend.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. skier, who is Ross Thompson!

      Delete
    2. I read he's a prominent unionist MP. An actual serving politician / member of the UK government who's part of #BetterTogether2, Ruth's Team Scotland, and is close to Brexit Boris down in London.

      I suppose the brexit connection might mean that has to be delayed too, at least until this is all sorted out.

      Delete
    3. Another unnecessary Scottish politician on the gravy train.

      Delete
    4. Poor Cordelia got confused there. It's never supposed to criticise its Tory overlords, even the ones in Scottish seats.

      Delete
    5. Is that the Yellow Tartan Tories?

      Delete
    6. Poor clueless Cordelia. Its Brexiteer Tory overlords will be angered by that comparison and may punish it.
      Unless, of course, that was Cordelia's intention all along...

      Delete
  38. Jeez brexiters are sensitive wee souls.

    Not much hope of rebuilding the empire if a wee barb from an opposing politican has them greetin aboot the unfairness of it all.

    I love it when English Tories insult Scotland. I welcome it. Please do it as much as possible. Live on TV if you can. Make it as obnoxious, racist and purile as possible. GWC style is ideal. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The imperial snowflakes really didn't like what Donald Tusk had to say. It was entertaining watching them howl with indignation over a wee insult after years of comparing the EU with the Napoleonic Empire and the Third Reich.

      Delete
  39. I have read that the Germans had a beer hall putsch i think that is a good idea glasgow has plenty of pubs and we get to have some fun drinking beer as well while doing something for scotland. Whos with me? We can march on the englisch and demand indyref2 and if they wont give it to us we can take london by force its going to be thirsty work marching to london tho so thats why we need to start in the pubs. Most of the pubs these days serve food as well so we can get a wee bite to eat before we go. Whose with me? The scottish beer hall putsch of 2019 YAAAAAASS!!! Here we here we here we f#@$¥€g go!!!

    ReplyDelete
  40. Great news for brexiters.

    Will also save money on any new visa system. Nae need for this unless the goal is to make leaving illegal.

    Buy aye, let's rant 'We don't want your sort here and you've got to be earning 30k to get in!' at the crowds cramming the exit gates. That seems like an eminently clever policy for 'global Britain'.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47002618

    Brexit: UK jobs 'attracting less interest from EU workers'

    UK jobs are attracting less interest from other European workers, figures released by some of the world's largest job search engines suggest.

    Data analysed for BBC News by jobs site Indeed show the number of searches for UK jobs from other European countries has fallen since 2015.

    The construction and healthcare industries have been the hardest hit...

    ...Data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) also shows that the number of non-UK nationals from the EU working in the UK dropped by 132,000 in the three months to September 2018 compared with 2017. That's the largest annual fall since comparable records began in 1997.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. skier, just announced that the BBC Radio 2 anti brexit chanel is still the most listened tae in the UK. Told ye before we will not leave. The fash will win. It is like Venezuela.

      Delete
    2. Is that true, or did Cordelia get it from the BBC?

      Delete
  41. Glesga Doon in HellFebruary 7, 2019 at 9:54 AM

    This place is full of priests yer feart tae turn yer back on them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Poor Cordelia, indulging one of its more rancid obsessions again.

      Delete
  42. 171 comments. Sheesh. A record for this site?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It was higher before our generous host deleted the more homophobic and racist of Cordelia's inane ravings. I for one am grateful to our host for that.

      Delete
    2. Oh Anonymous you are such a superior chap and an intellectual giant. I would love to give you a freebie. Do not worry about your wee tool.

      Delete
    3. I think I made it cry.
      No doubt normal service was resumed for Cordelia when it tuned into Question Time last night.
      Orange Jaikit Guy is exactly the kind of raging gammon it truly desires.

      Delete
  43. When are we going to get indyref2 i really really want it this is getting SO FRUSTRATING!!! We should have it now.what about that tory that was caught feeling guys up we could use that as the trigger for indy i am so so angry for our poor SMP Mps they have to put up with so much bullying now they have to tolerate their balls being felt by tories. It's infuriating.

    INDYREF2 NOW!!!

    ReplyDelete
  44. Where have all the Nat sis gone! Emergency meeting at the Blythswood Square telephone box mibbie.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The ultra-right-wing Cordelia would be better off haunting BTL at the Dreary Heil if it's looking for Nazi company.

      Delete
  45. I am of the opinion - FUCK THE YOONS! GIVE THEM AN EFFIN DOSE THAT IS UNTREATABLE WITH ANTIBIOTICS. I hope that upsets them!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Pack that in. Leave that sort of thing to the likes of Cordelia.

      Delete