"But the closest to home of all these events is the hardest to see. Thanks to brilliant Blairite spin-doctoring then and since, much of Britain has yet to realise that the United Kingdom surrendered to the Provisional IRA at the fabled ‘Good Friday Agreement’ in Belfast in 1998...The 1998 agreement is clear. All it will take is a referendum, and the six counties of Northern Ireland will become part of the Irish Republic. This is what our government signed, though Ukrainians might be struck by the way our cave-in followed strong pressure from the US, which abruptly dropped its supposed close ally. The defeated must do as they are told..."
"All" it will take is a referendum? Well, what more should it take? Are we to assume that the principle the British government was defending in the war against the IRA was that Northern Ireland must remain part of the UK regardless of whether its people want to or not? I don't remember that being mentioned very much at the time. And are we to assume that "defeat to the IRA" looked like the introduction of democracy, or at least of the most fundamental democratic principle of all? Does Hitchens actually intend to frame the IRA as pro-democracy freedom fighters, and Britain's 30-year military campaign against the IRA as being about defending a colonial possession against democracy?
This of course has implications for Scotland, because if you take it to its logical conclusion, it means that for your vote to count in a British territorial possession like Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland, you first have to defeat the British government militarily. Now, to be clear, if our independence movement ever became violent, which it never, ever will, I would walk away from it. I would rather live under London rule indefinitely than be associated in even the remotest way with IRA-type violence, and thankfully I will never be faced with that dilemma. But if a Hitchens-type mindset is prevalent in the British establishment, and it does appear to be (the pretence that the UK is anything other than a prison has fallen away in recent years), we need to start thinking about the non-violent ways in which we are going to stop playing by London's rules and bring matters to a head.
My concern is that John Swinney (assuming that the cynics who say he is a devolutionist are wrong) has this notion in his head that if we can just achieve a very large supermajority for independence, Britain will eventually accept it, as they did with devolution. But the key difference is that one of the two main London parties was actually pro-devolution, and simply delivered its own devolution policy when elected to government. That will never happen with independence. Labour and the Tories (and Reform) will always be opposed to it, so we'll have to find another way of breaking the logjam, no matter how high support for Yes goes. Remember that the Tory government of 1979-97 had no problem whatsoever continuing to resist devolution even when support for it in opinion polls reached 70-80%.
So we'll have to think about tactics like civil disobedience, non-cooperation between the Scottish Government and the UK Government, and parliamentary disruption at Westminster (although the latter will be a lot more effective if and when the SNP get their Westminster majority back).
And if the SNP leadership really are saying that 50% + 1 is no longer enough for independence, then I'm afraid there's no use being squeamish about it. In my opinion the only way a supermajority for independence is even feasible is if a massive disruptive event occurs, and the only such event I can see potentially on the horizon is a Nigel Farage premiership.
I think something a lot of people don't do and should, even just for a few minutes is try to see things from our opponents perspective.
ReplyDeletePretend you're Keir Starmer for a moment (bear with me). What would make you risk going down in history as the Prime Minister who lost Scotland? You're under no obligation to allow a referendum — the Supreme Court has confirmed you have the power to grant or deny one. Polls show you’d almost certainly lose if you did. So why would you ever agree to it?
Unless you seriously believe Starmer is going to have a complete mental collapse and hand us a referendum out of pity, it’s time to get real: the Section 30 route is closed off. Winning another "mandate" changes nothing. Westminster will just keep saying no because they can, and because it costs them nothing to do so. The movement is divided because too many people are still being strung along by a fantasy, and deep down, they know it.
Sounds about right. I've always found it odd that the British state repeatedly demonstrates that self determination for Scotland is forbidden within the terms of it's limited and distorted democracy but that many independence supporters seem to respond with the old stereotype of 'Fizz whirr does not compute'.
DeleteCivil disobedience boycotts, strikes, mass protests etc are going to be essential - like it or not. Our deep problem is that the SNP has to my know,edge never done anything to bring this to the notice of its supporters. By omission it has been part of perpetuating the myth of a 'gentlemens agreement'. It's dead simple - there wont ever be one !
People who are serious about independence need to think about this and work to change the party into a state in which it can play a role in spreading new thinking.
The alternative is to whirl around the plug hoke until.....
I have two children aged 14 and 10. They both tell me that they don't know anyone who doesn't support independence.
DeleteScotland is a very different country eleven years later.
LOL
Delete"So we'll have to think about tactics like civil disobedience, non-cooperation between the Scottish Government and the UK Government, and parliamentary disruption at Westminster (although the latter will be a lot more effective if and when the SNP get their Westminster majority back)."
ReplyDeleteIronically wasn't that part of Alba's original strategy?
Obviously would have needed the SNP to get onboard with it at the time though.
I've accused Alba of many things, but I would never accuse them of having a "strategy".
DeleteFrom the Herald: https://archive.is/tLwH3
ReplyDeleteRoz Foyer (STUC): "If we get to the point where working-class people and their representatives bring forward policy to congress where they feel their interests are better served in an independent Scotland than they are by remaining part of the UK, then I don’t see any reason why the STUC couldn’t end up supporting that position. I wouldn’t rule that out as something in the future."
Ties in with what James said:
DeleteThe drift to the hard right could result in dire consequences for Scotland, Foyer believes. She war-games the worst possible future like this: growing disillusionment with the Labour government could “likely” lead to Reform taking power at Westminster.
That would increase Scottish independence support. However, with no route to another referendum a constitutional crisis would unfold. Given such a febrile atmosphere, Foyer fears matters could spiral out of control and result in Northern Ireland-style violence.
Yes. The STUC were neutral though Grahame Smith was at least indy friendly, and they have stayed neutral. They represent one-third of workers it seems.
DeleteThe S G cannot hold a referendum in terms of its powers deriving from the devolution legislation. It is not a blanket prohibition against another referendum.
DeleteWhy don't we see more SNP people pushing for alternative tactics?
ReplyDeleteEven in the comment section of most blog posts here it descends in an argument where those criticising the SNP's current strategy are called yoons & and any alternative strategies are rubbished.
Many seem to have the belief that all that needs to happen is to support the SNP leadership, get them over the line in 2026 and then things will just work themselves out. That blind faith and vagueness is incredibly frustrating & it's delusional to expect the masses to support it.
I think for some of them their blind hatred of Labour is far stronger than any real interest in Independence.
DeleteAn alternative tactic is the hare-brained Campbell one of closing down Holyrood.
DeleteYIR2. Blind hatred of Labour? What utter nonsense. If you have nothing to say stay silent. Stop pedalling lies and disinformation.
DeleteI see the wee dug shift is on at 8:20
Delete“… non-cooperation between the Scottish Government and the UK Government“. Fae a First Meenister that shared a stage wi the Major of Peterborough. Aye right.
ReplyDeleteTasmina Ahmed-Sheikh is great mates with Richard Tice. So, y'know, swings and roundabouts.
DeleteDon't forget about Starmers 'Council of the Nations and Regions'.
DeleteSwinney was all smiles being on equal pegging to an English mayor working in cooperation with the UK Government.
Admittedly a Council of the Nations and Regions wouldn't be grand enough for Tasmina because it wouldn't have Richard Tice in it. Cooperation with Yoons is grand as long as it's the Dick'n'Tas Show.
DeleteQuestion. Would what you call a "Dick'n'Tas Show" be a step up or a step down from Slanszh Media's current little-watched YouTube show Tas Is Talking?
DeleteInteresting question. I'd say a step up. Dick may be a fascist but he has a less annoying voice than Taz.
DeleteI think Slanty Media should aim higher and do a full-blown breakfast TV service.
DeleteNews anchors with unresolved sexual tension: Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh and Dick Tice
Women's Affairs Correspondent: Neale Hanvey, if he has time in between surrogacy attempts
Mr Motivator-style fitness instructor: Chris McEleny
Weathergirl: Shannon Donoghue
Sweary Chef: Chris Cullen
Astrologer: Yvonne Ridley
Royal Correspondent: Christina "Of The Blood" Hendry
Nodding Dog: Robert Slavin
"Don't forget about Starmers 'Council of the Nations and Regions'.
DeleteSwinney was all smiles being on equal pegging to an English mayor working in cooperation with the UK Government. "
This is a bloody stupid argument. There are plenty of valid criticism of the SNP and Swinney, but this is not one of them.
The meeting was in Edinburgh which makes Scotland the host, and Swinney as First Minister the real host; the other first ministers were there - who in their right mind would support Swinney snubbing them? And as far as the reserved aspects of governance are concerned, every single first minister and mayor is a possible ally against Starmer and the right wing Labour government of the UK who control reserved policies.
Swinney had no choice but attend, unless you're totally incapable of rational thought.
And just to add to that. Starmer, the PM, was there.
Deleteit would be very different if the thing was headed by some ex-civil servant, or nodding dog Ian Murray as governor-general. In that case Swinney should appoint his most junior minister to attend and have nothing to do with it himself.
Wrong. He should not have attended. It was in Edinburgh but the UK was the host. If we want independence then, at the very least, we have to break convensions. Same with WM - we should disrupt government business not make the occasional smart ass one liner. The problem we have is that our Scottish politicians respect and conform to rules created by WM, rules that as we have seen can be changed on the whim of the speaker. To confirm to your master is to affirm your subservience
DeleteConform
DeleteThe Scottish Government has continually complained that there is no co-operation from the UK Government, indeed, the Institute for Government stated:
Delete"The JMC system had largely ceased to function by 2022".
The IGR took over but also failed. Gove for fuck's sake. Do you seriously think that this current stupid "Council of the Nations and Regions" has the slightest possibility of succeeding?
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/intergovernmental-relations
BUT it can not be the fault of the Scottish Government WHEN, not if, it fails. And that ex civil servant already dingied it just as fast as she could wake up and smell the coffee.
Can you seriously see Ian Murray making a go of it? Really? He might have been OK as an MP in the past, but now he's 100% plonker.
yesindyref @ 1:43PM.
DeleteIt was Keir Starmer's initiative though and it was obvious what he was trying to do: Make it appear that all parts of the UK were working together to show the benefits of the union, better together by working together etc.
Sure, it was a token gesture, we know it's crap. But it had to be treated as though it was a serious one otherwise everybody could say "The SNP blaming Westminster as usual".
DeleteThe approach of cooperation, working together and acting on the notion that we're dealing with people who respect political norms and mandates is counterproductive though. The nore we see of that the more eyes will roll.
DeleteActually agree with James that we need disobedience, non-cooperation with the UK Government. Be a nuisance etc as they're not going to hand us our independence out of politeness or respect.
No. This was an opportunity to state that Scotland was not going to conform to this sort of cheap shot. The whole purpose of this initiative was to put three of the nations on the status of the regions and cities of England. A colonial flag exercise stabbing right into the heart of Scotland's capital. Only one country was not represented at the meeting of nations and regions . At some point someone is going to have to make a stand. As I said before, we would have been better to send 56 boxers down to WM than that subservient bunch. Disrupting parliament, making the UK difficult to govern would be something that the hot air of 'we will not allow Scotland to be taken out of the EU against its will' guff. A bunch of people who when told clapping was against the conventions of parliament actually stopped. A lot of politics is about signals and we signalled we were acquiescent. Swinney attending the colonial event endorsed and affirmed our subservience. It's not a lot to ask our politicians to do something for our side. This latest event they cobbled together to look as though they're doing something was really a gift to Reform but also a slap in the face of independence supporters - a sort of 'better together#2'. The signal from that event was 'we ain't going nowhere'.
DeleteReply to yesindyref2
DeleteReread that it comes across as snidy - not meant - on work break
DeleteBlackford got the SNP MPs and walked out and I thought "YUSS, we're at the start of it now". No, that was it, and then the useless MPs went on to debate English fox hunting. Useless.
DeleteThey're the ones should go for the disobedience, disruption, whereas the ScotGov have to be a bit careful - they're elected to govern under devolution. MPs first I think, then if that's ignored, MSPs. Salmond at least seized the mace and walked out. What did the SNP MPs do? Allow themselves to be browbeaten by the "Speaker". Cowards.
Exactly - disrupt parliamentry business, break the conventions - they are not even rules
DeleteAnd if they insist that a Convention is enforceable, then shout out "What about the Sewel Convention you numpties?".
DeleteJames: Peter Hitchens is very anti-Blair and he has to make everything he did seem bad. That results in some mental gymnastics regarding the Belfast Good Friday Agreement.
ReplyDeleteSomeone should educate Hitchens about the origins of the Northern Ireland statelet. As for Blair he should have stood trial before the ICJ after the invasion of Iraq.
DeleteThe ICC, but yeah
DeletePeter Hitchens is an utter arsehole. Thick as shit and bigoted. He does articles the the Daily Heil.
DeleteIf 50 + 1 is not enough then the SNP are not a party of independence
ReplyDeleteLeave it to the NSP !
DeleteI'm curious: Why's it always snide sarcastic comments rather than anything constructive?
DeleteDisagree with the SNP on something then deflection and trolling is the response.
Disagree with Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh about anything and expulsion is the only response.
DeleteGreat post on X/twitter -
ReplyDelete"How Hitler seized power:
1. Create a crisis.
2. Demonize opponents.
3. Declare a state of emergency.
4. Undermine elections.
5. Make the rule of law irrelevant.
6. Rule by decree.
If America falls it will be because of the people who didn’t pay attention."
Trump can do the first four, but I don't see how he can do numbers 5 and 6, which would require an Enabling Act - which in US terms would be hopelessly unconstitutional.
DeleteIn practice, he is presently doing his best on 5 and 6.
DeleteHis best will not be enough.
DeleteWe shall see.
DeleteThe Yanks saw off the Brits, they can see off Trump if (and when) they decide to.
DeleteThey already saw him off once before though in arguably the most chaotic and violent end to a Presidency in modern history... how bad must things have been to go back to him just 4 years later and make him the first Republican in two decades the win the popular vote?
DeleteBut he didn't create a crisis, Germany was politically unstable since the treaty of Versailles in 1919. The fall of the monarchy, the fall of the republic, communist, fascists and nationalists. He took an opportunity but he didn't create it.
Deleteslack post
Deletethe nazis popularity (bigger than oasis at knebworth) was a reaction to the widespread terror of being murdered by the bolsheviks; the workers state had been a disaster and no one wanted that. People forget that the nazis fought the communists on the streets; had the communists won, germany would have been a second soviet union. Then with the mass starvation, bullet in the head and destruction of its culture.
the wall st crash had been another disaster for germany, it needed a new economic model. What the nazis did actually worked, and its military strength flowed from the economic/industrial, which was a produce of the social model. That is why it had to be destroyed; it provided a bad example by being successful. In the end it took 4 empires to defeat it.
as for america being "fascist", by the definition of the word, it turned fascist around 1950. Eisenhower said so. Shooting the elected head of state was another clue; this was a coup.
hitlers role was in being an avatar of the german people, much as farage is right now for the english.
at the time of 911, people made comparisons of the 3000 page US patriot act with the enabling act; imagine that, they had a 3000 page law document "just sitting around, in case". What's the odds of that?
"undermining elections" - the nazi were great afficionados of "no vote is wasted" proportional representation
"rule of law" - the nazis had plenty law, everything they did was legal.
why all the hysteria about things that have already happened (- but weren't actually done by trump)?
Goodness me, we've got a refugee from Stormfront. Not even Stormfront Lite, the real one.
DeleteAnon @ 4:13
DeleteTake your Trump-excusing pish elsewhere.
And remember to renew your jackboots every winter.
Anon 4.13 doesn't know how to use caps. 😂
DeleteAnon at 9.43. Clown face and you are slagging off the contributions of others? How unaware can you actually be?
DeleteAnon @ 12:47: “ Swinney was all smiles being on equal pegging to an English mayor”. Aye and Starmer gave Swinney a right pegging, probably withoot an application of KY.
ReplyDeletePathetic statement. Pretty juvenile again
DeleteIt's taking advantage, and not from our side of the pond either
DeleteAnon at 4.28. So much of what is wrong with supposed Indy supporters on here is encapsulated in your moronic post. WOS and Alba awaits you. More your style/level.
DeleteAs you wrote: supposed Indy supporters.
Delete"I would rather live under London rule indefinitely than be associated in even the remotest way with IRA-type violence, and thankfully I will never be faced with that dilemma"
ReplyDeleteReally ?. And what if the English state used violence against Scottish citizens peacefull protesting, like they historically have done. Boston 1775, Amritsar 1920 and against the civil rights protests in NI in 1969. If your going to give the English state a monoply on political violence then your inviting them to use it. Did'nt some Labour politician say that the Scottish Independent supporters should be dealt with the same way the Guarda Civil dealt with the Catalans. Bashing their heads in ?.
Lisa Nandy.
DeleteAnon@6:07pm,
DeleteEmbarrassing post!
What a 🤡
Anon at 6.19. Clown face? What age are you?
Delete"Stephen Flynn speaks out as Labour snub Scottish carbon capture scheme"
ReplyDeleteOh wow, that's it then, Labour will repent and do Acorn after all
"Stephen Flynn hit out after Sir Keir Starmer spoke at an energy summit ..."
Where's that wet paper bag?
"The Herald reports that Flynn said it is “disappointing” ..."
Blubber blubber. What a weasel.
Give us your plan.
DeleteOften the point about disruptive events is that they are unexpected. Nobody expected Trump to win in 2016 with so many Republican rivals. Few expected Brexit to happen, even in the closing days of that vote. Trump's line on Ukraine has shocked NATO. The bogeyman Boris Johnson has come n gone. My worry is the Yes movement never seems to be willing to take advantage of opportunities. Salmond would have run riot with the chances his successors have had.
ReplyDeleteA pity that Alec squandered the rest of his career with Alba.
DeleteIronic isn't it that NI's peace dividend has earned it the right to leave Westminster rule, although our peace process was put in place centuries before.
ReplyDeleteJames says prison. IFS says de facto colony. Same end result.
ReplyDeleteZzzzzzzzz
ReplyDeleteWhat is the point of you and your zzzzzzz posts? Try hard and write some words.
DeleteYou know the point and it clearly resonates. Say something worthwhile and you will get a response. Use an identifier to distinguish yourself from the other anons. I will reciprocate. Until then my Zzzzzz remains the most insightful post on this blog. But you know that, which is what rankles with you. The lesson endeth.
Delete9.14 am Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
DeleteYou are a complete dickhead 9.14am
And in reverse, to deal with the real terrorists : you have to consider all the various "kill switches" the english have over our country - they do this mainly by routing all vital functions through London first. A scotgov which was serious about indy would make sure it knew of and could remove quickly any of these cutouts, these sabotage weapons. When you make the declaration at the UN you will not have the UK's "permission" (it will never be given) - and you have to make sure they cannot disrupt our country, strangle the baby in its crib. The biggest physical challenge will be that most goods come via lorry over the land border; this is one reason why Scotland has no decent ferry links to mainland europe or ireland. Another problem is the shutting down of the oil refinery, our only one - this is designed to cripple us. Scotland, being an exporter of energy and food, will be more than self sufficient, but the current system is designed to create a dependence on the english and this must be removed. When indy happens, they must not be capable of doing anything about it, for they are masters of the dark arts and they invented all the dirty tricks.
ReplyDeleteAnon: I felt I had no choice but to delete your earlier comment, because at the very least you were straying into a legal grey zone.
DeleteAnybody that thinks there’s even a slight chance of Scotland ever becoming independent has to be a sandwich short of the full picnic.
ReplyDeleteOK KC, or is it Stu ?
DeleteUnionists said exactly the same thing about this lot -
DeleteList of countries that have gained independence from the United Kingdom:
🇦🇫 Afghanistan: 1919
🇦🇬 Antigua and Barbuda: 1981
🇧🇠Bahrain: 1971
🇧🇧 Barbados: 1966
🇧🇿 Belize: 1981
🇧🇼 Botswana: 1966
🇧🇳 Brunei: 1984
🇨🇾 Cyprus: 1960
🇩🇲 Dominica: 1978
🇪🇬 Egypt: 1922
🇸🇿 Eswatini: 1968
🇫🇯 Fiji: 1970
🇬🇠Ghana: 1957
🇬🇩 Grenada: 1974
🇬🇾 Guyana: 1966
🇮🇳 India: 1947
🇮🇶 Iraq: 1932
🇮🇱 Israel: 1948
🇯🇲 Jamaica: 1962
🇯🇴 Jordan: 1946
🇰🇪 Kenya: 1963
🇰🇮 Kiribati: 1979
🇰🇼 Kuwait: 1961
🇱🇸 Lesotho: 1966
🇱🇾 Libya: 1951
🇲🇼 Malawi: 1964
🇲🇾 Malaya: 1957
🇲🇻 Maldives: 1965
🇲🇹 Malta: 1964
🇲🇺 Mauritius: 1968
🇲🇲 Myanmar: 1948
🇳🇷 Nauru: 1968
🇳🇬 Nigeria: 1960
🇴🇲 Oman: 1970
🇵🇰 Pakistan: 1947
🇶🇦 Qatar: 1971
🇱🇨 Saint Lucia: 1979
🇰🇳 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 1983
🇻🇨 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines: 1979
🇸🇨 Seychelles: 1976
🇸🇱 Sierra Leone: 1961
🇸🇧 Solomon Islands: 1978
🇾🇪 South Yemen: 1967
🇱🇰 Sri Lanka: 1948
🇸🇩 Sudan: 1956
🇹🇿 Tanganyika: 1961
🇧🇸 The Bahamas: 1973
🇬🇲 Gambia: 1965
🇹🇴 Tonga: 1970
🇹🇹 Trinidad and Tobago: 1962
🇹🇻 Tuvalu: 1978
🇺🇬 Uganda: 1962
🇦🇪 UAE: 1971
🇺🇸 USA: 1776
🇻🇺 Vanuatu: 1980
🇿🇲 Zambia: 1964
🇹🇿 Zanzibar: 1963
🇿🇼 Zimbabwe: 1980
There is at best a huge degree of naivety in our independence movement. Our recently passed and at one point best hope of a leader to get us there AS was hugely naive during indyref1 expecting a level playing field from the Brit establishment, even appointing ex BBC (all security service vetted) staff to senior positions. Rev Stu another deploring anyone who raised allegations of corruption in and on the day of the vote. We were duped, we were too nicey nicey.
ReplyDeleteWe are dealing with a rogue state in England that doesn’t give a shit about the consequences of its deeds so long as it prevails.
Realise that then come up with a strategy to escape its clutches.
Very important post by Anon (one of them) about removing the ties, trade routes, refineries etc.
None of that is by accident
“We are dealing with a rogue state in England………..”
ReplyDeleteYou are seriously deluded!
Perfidious Albion is a myth? Who would have thought. You are not seriously deluded, you are simply ignorant and stupid.
ReplyDeleteWe need to make Scotland ungovernable for the UK, that includes non-payment of UK taxes and non-enforcement of UK taxes by Police Scotland, civil disobedience, and blowing away any UK establishment figures based in Scotland.
ReplyDeleteOh dear!
DeleteMaybe the time has come for you to seek help!