The fact that ITV's announcement of a rigged leaders' debate was so predictable does not make it any less outrageous or mean it should provoke any less fury. The debate will exclude all parties apart from the two that just happen to be most popular in England.
In the UK, parliament is directly elected but the government is not. There are no "candidates for Prime Minister" standing for election, even though that has been used as a risible excuse for excluding all but two leaders in the past. (Michael Crick openly admitted in 2010 that the broadcasters started with the assumption that they had to come up with an excuse for excluding the SNP and Plaid Cymru, and thus worked backwards to dream up the 'Prime Ministerial Debate' wheeze.)
A parliamentary election consists of hundreds of individual constituency contests. In Scotland, the vast majority of those will be SNP v Labour races. How can those take place on a level playing field if the main TV debates only feature Labour and the Tories? They can't. They will clearly be rigged in favour of Labour. Of the minority of Scottish contests that are not SNP v Labour, most are SNP v Tory. How can those take place on a level playing field if the main TV debates only feature Labour and the Tories? They can't. They will clearly be rigged in favour of the Tories.
Nor can the distorting effect of Labour v Tory debates be in any way remedied by having four-way second-string Scottish debates that feature the SNP, Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems. Because those will simply provide Labour and the Tories with yet more airtime, they will have no balancing effect whatsoever. To properly compensate with fair coverage, there would need to be additional debates that specifically exclude Labour and the Tories.
Rigged debates cannot be justified by precedent either, because in 2015 ITV had no problem broadcasting a scrupulously fair debate involving the leaders of all seven of the largest parties, including the SNP and Plaid. Why did they agree to that? Oh, because David Cameron would only agree to take part in a single debate if his exchanges with Ed Miliband were 'diluted' by having other leaders present. It's extraordinary, isn't it: democratic fairness is possible for Scotland in the UK, but only as an incidental side-effect of the whims of a unionist party leader in London.
Scots will always be second class citizens in 'Our Pwecious Union'. Institutions like ITV serve England and literally look no further. The dice are loaded against us, and quite simply we need out.
Sunak has so little chance it seems pointless including him too.
ReplyDeleteYeah, should be Starmer vs. Corbyn. They’ll be at it again soon enough.
DeleteMebyon Kernow definitely deserve a place on the stage. Freedom for Cornwall! Rise and be a nation again!
ReplyDeleteThe “official” Monster Munch Raving Loonies are no such thing. They are splitters and a shame to the ideology and founding ideals of the movement.
ReplyDeleteI shall remain a member of the Monster Raving Loony Party (ML) (Continuing) and of none of the offshoots that are splitting our movement. Long live the MRLP(ML)(C)!
DeletePS. MRLP(ML)(C) is a proud ally of the LGBTVQI+[RSMP](BBC).
DeleteThe empirical evidence in the academic political science literature shows that debates have no statistically significant causal effect on electoral outcomes.
ReplyDeleteBoth 2010 and 2015 give the lie to that claim.
DeleteReally?
DeleteYes, really, and to be frank I don't think single-word replies add anything to the discussion.
DeleteWell said. Undeniable too.
ReplyDeletePrompt:> “Write a needy blog comment commending an AI written poster’s gibberish as eloquent and apt. Show no signs of self-awareness, too.”
DeleteStarmer, bland and forgettable.
ReplyDeleteSunak, already forgotten.
Swinney, hold my coat.
DeleteExcluding the SNP insulates Labour and the Tories from questions about Gaza.
ReplyDeleteThat's an excellent point.
DeleteSo, prime minister, and prime minister in waiting, the question on everyone’s lips: Linneker or Gazza?
DeleteWhat has Gaza got to do with the UK GE?
DeleteNats have no shame. Trying to make political gain out of this,
Just like Covid, Sturgeon doing her pathetic grandstanding, trying to make out we were doing better than England when clearly we weren’t. This was the only time support for independence has been consistently above 50%, as thousands were taken in by the nonsense. Thankfully most have come to their senses and see it for what it was.
Utterly pathetic.
Gaza is a concern of foreign policy, therefore, a British government concern. You could credibly argue that 'stance on Gaza' is not a Holyrood issue, but can hardly argue it is not a Wesminster one. Anyone for an "ethical foreign policy"?
DeleteLurker I agree with your comments but anon at 8.37pm is the Britnat KC once again hiding as an anon.
DeleteAnyone who states "What has Gaza got to do with a UK GE" probably shouldn't be allowed to vote on grounds of diminished responsibility. The UK is providing Israel with weapons. Foreign Policy is a key part of a UK GE.
DeleteAnon at 8:54, you, like many others appear to be getting pretty desperate. A straw clutching Nat trying to make political gain out of a foreign tragedy.
DeleteJust like Sturgeon’s shameful grandstanding during the Covid tragedy.
Nats have no shame.
@ 9.15 That is just verbal diarrhoea because you are very, very wrong and have been called out on it.
DeleteAnon at 9.15am is the Britnat KC. Same boring words and sentences. The guy has a very limited vocabulary - desperate, clutching make a regular appearance in his posts.
DeletePretty sure these guys are just trolling out of boredom now. "UK foreign policy is irrelevant to a UK general election" isn't a point that a functioning adult could sincerely make
DeleteKeaton - this is true. Seems Labour and Cons have also decided to avoid anything about Brexit so as not to upset southern voters - which pretty much excludes any 'true' discussion about the overall state of the economy. No devolved administration leaders allowed in this debate which cements the 'it's aye been' Cons/Labour assumption of superiority over all others and is another clear indication that from Thatcher's time, Westminster UKplc adopted the American governance model which has been an utter catastrophe and is a big part of why we are where we are.
DeleteIt very much looks as if Westminster is now totally under the control of foreign state and global financial influencer 'clients' that Cons and Labour are having to do the 'Butler to the World' behaviour aluded to in Bullough's book. If they don't turn UK into what the money wants - the creditors come knocking on the door. I think the creditors ARE knocking at the door and UK society is having to be changed to meet their demands because of silly little global status obsessed little knee-bending weak characters who for decades thought the world would keep bending to the old Empire prestige British political theatre performances of a big on the surface show of tiaras, trinkets, titles, patrician behaviour and tea with royalty. That hasn't cut it since the rest of the world flew into the 21st Century, rushed forward with technology, engineering and all of the 'needs' for the future, created their own millionaires and billionaires and bought out 'Britain'. The biggest danger to the UK for decades has been the naivety of Westminster plc believing it's own 'we're a cut above' whilst the reality is it sat back resting on the notion that the rest of the world still thinks of UKplc in terms of its nostalgic historic Empire. We've had a century of being eroded by Labour and Conservatives who have been the real security danger.
If only the Yes movement just once for this GE would vote SNP and stop the new Starmer mantra that SNP losses mean any losses by the SNP and gains by Labour is going to 'change the face of the union'. Because that's the truth. Labour say to achieve their not as yet guaranteed 20.7% swing they need from down south to achieve a majority by only 1 seat, they NEED those 20-25 Labour MP seats in Scotland. They achieve that then those committees working for the last two years in London who have been looking at how to capture Holyrood and change how it legislates and its power - will come to fruition if SNP lose a significant number of GE seats in Scotland. Then all Starmer has to do when he gets in as PM is say 'Right, now let's look at the devolved administrations and give them a refurbishment. Our Labour gains in Scotland show that Scotland really now wants to strengthen itself in the union so let's just ensure Holyrood works for the union because that is what the Scottish people GE vote indicates'.
Right after the GE election, if SNP lose seats (no other indy party seats matter to UKplc) and Labour gain - Starmer could completely overhaul how Holyrood works from his base in Westminster. He could even change the voting system for Holyrood and do anything he likes. It is not a guarantee that in Labour seat wins situation and Starmer as PM - that Holyrood 2026 will go ahead 'as normal' - which some Yessers seem WILL just go on as normal. Those being gleeful wanting to give the SNP a kicking at this GE, this time around, really DO need to be careful what they wish for. IF ONLY the entire Yes movement THIS ONCE would just vote SNP at this GE - and Starmer and those nasty wee London committees would be stopped at the pass from roadrollering right over Scotland and tying it tighter into UKplc. I'm not sure whether the Yes movement can see that wood for the trees though.
Additional to that - all those focus groups are evidencing that people are saying that whilst they would like independence, their priorities for the GE are NHS and cost of living - and indy voters are saying that for the GE they are going to vote Labour. Don't ignore that. It's indy voters miffed with the SNP who are the ones talking about messing up ballot papers or not bothering to vote - alleged indy voters - NOT unionist party voters. Big positive message for unionist parties. Massive and very noted down south.
DeleteStarmer thinks he has it in the bag. NO indy party could make a show of a big number of seats representing Scotland at Westminster other than the SNP, fact. Alba cannot gain enough GE seats to become the 3rd biggest party at Westminster. Lib-Dems are sure they're on a roll to become 3rd biggest party at Westminster and 3rd party have huge benefits particularly in vital optics with UKplc and in Scotland.
No matter what the gripes with the SNP within the Yes movement - they are the only party which has ever scared UKplc and kept them a short distance away from assuming absolute control over Holyrood and Scotland. No matter the criticised behaviours or grievances towards the SNP, it's not only in UKplc they are considered as spokespersons for Scotland - it is globally. Don't forget, despite all the anti-Sturgeon narrative, that it was only after Sturgeon became FM that the world stopped laughing and stopped discarding the notion that Scotland had the right to try and gain independence. They all stopped laughing, started to engage with the Scottish government and showed respect and interest. That is something the anti-SNP Yes movement narrators have completely airbrushed from the big picture - by avoiding the big picture ENTIRELY and creating disunity with attached personal grudges. Not all of the anti-SNP narratives are 'reliable' narratives and should be given as much scrutiny as the lazy notion that believing them just because it suits you is the reality.
This GE is a last chance saloon to put all that aside and speak as we assume we would like to speak for Scotland. Nothing could deliver a bigger upset to the media, to UKplc, to Starmer, to Westminster, to the global observers - than the inner fighting Yes movement rise above themselves and vote en masse for the SNP at this one GE and bloody Westminster and the 'how can we take over Holyrood for the union' committees, huge number of right-wing think tanks and opportunistic profit chasing corporates and finance bodies now rallying to Starmer's call out of self-interest.
Scotland has to show it has the maturity to stand up for itself en masse - and that means the Yes movement. NOBODY expects it to rise above the domestic rabbling arguments. EVERYBODY expects the Yes movement to continue internal going in circles amongst itself. The Scottish public as well as all those other interested bodies - need to see that, unlike in the historic past when Scotland lost because of all the 'what's in it for me' nobles squabbling and losing our country - that NOW the Yes movement can do the opposite when the chips are truly down and think above itself and its personalities.
Bragging about giving the SNP a kicking and thinking the opportunity to right the imagined wrongs at a 2026 Holyrood election is not a guaranteed scenario if Starmer and VERY INFLUENTIAL OTHERS use this GE result to have a good laugh and brag that the discontented Yes Movement has been a big enabling factor in them gaining traction over Holyrood and Scotland. Because that's the truth. They are being enabled, as ever happens with girning elements within Scotland, to re-establish themselves and regain complete control. If people don't see how gleeful Starmer and UKplc are convinced they have Scotland in the bag - then going to Specsavers isn't going to save Scotland.
Or maybe the truth is simpler than all of that. Maybe it's just that all those past Labour voters who joined the SNP and the Yes movement - have just been waiting for Labour to produce a Starmer and return them to their happy Labour home - and they will sacrifice independence for a return to their nostalgic past in good British habitual style. Maybe that's why there has been the desperate need to spread the narrative that the SNP are not for independence because they are bogged down in the day job keeping the country afloat in unprecedented circumstances - and unless they paint their faces, rush out shouting everyday waving saltires and calling others 'traitors' and stuff - and they don't drop the day job to campaign all the time using pugilistic or insulting rhetoric - oh well, they can't be for independence. That is the narrative of the frequency scrambler trying to feather their own future nest. I was told some months ago by a past aide of Mr Salmond who laughed like mad and said 'For heaven's sake there is NO Yes movement. It's something other'. I thought that was insulting to the Yes movement at the time - but I'm surmising now that that is probably the truth.
DeleteExcluding the SNP insulates Labour and the Tories from *all* the issues where those two parties are broadly comparable - on Brexit, on the economy, immigration, defence/Trident, as well as Gaza - in fact all the main things that Scotland could do differently if we had the chance. Those are precisely the things being excluded from the debate.
ReplyDeleteAnd the very things the UK foists upon us.
DeleteCareful now. Avert your eyes. Nothing to see here.
If Sunam or Starker failed to turn up, the one who did would lose the debate with himself. If both failed to turn up, the audience would win.
ReplyDeleteThat's pretty much my take on it too! Starmer and Sunak are both such cringe worthy speakers that any party that isn't there wins anyway.
DeleteThere definitely needs to a better balance.
ReplyDeleteI can understand why the SNP isn't included in every debate because if I lived in England I'd be wondering why a Party I don't have the option to vote for is taking up valuable airtime.
But on the flip side of that it negatively impacts the Scottish electorate. I really don't know what the best solution is.
They could have a Scottish 'extra time' section - and ones for Wales and Northern Ireland too - adter all we're supposed to be all part of the precious Union (or even leading it!). It could be shown only in those respective territories. But I'd have thought that even some voters in England might want to see how their candidates for PM fared in the other dogfights.
DeleteThe thing that needs rebalanced is the union. And the most equitable balance is just to dissolve it.
DeleteThere is no fairness possible in a union with 80%+ of the population and the power concentrated in just one permanently leading piece. The English don’t want split into Scottish or Welsh sized chunks, and clearly Scots can’t have equally many MPs as the English. The whole thing is entirely out of whack.
Does it bother you if you benefit from it, though? No. Of course not. You can’t even see there’s something wrong.
Solving it comes down to us.
I expect the BBC will probably not have one because of a failure to agree terms.
ReplyDeleteThe colonial oppressor England disnae play fair with its colonies. Surely people must see that by now. They weren't fair in 2014 and to expect anything like fairness from Perfidious Albion is just plain naivety.
ReplyDelete"Rigged debates" says James. The whole UK set up is rigged against Scotland since 1707. England controls the media. England controls the armed forces.
"The dice are loaded against us, and quite simply we need out."
James is spot on in his article. But what do we get from the supposed party of independence - financial scandal and a marshmallow cowardly acceptance that Westminster rules us and they must be obeyed.
Gonna gies us a sec 30 - no - ok see you at the next election. The last mob in the Scottish parliament of 1707 were bribed, bullied and threatened in to bending the knee to Westminster. What are this lot getting? Send your answers to Swinney.
A few lordships coming right up, Pete.
DeleteIt's a debate being broadcast in Scotland. It should have the main Scottish parties in it, or should not be broadcast in Scotland.
ReplyDeleteDr Jim disnae like The Alba party - part 4,472
ReplyDeleteJimbo says:- " The National has gone the same way as the AUOB marches, infested by vile Alba thugs insulting everybody in sight or every article about the SNP and every MSP or MP in the party."
So what's upsetting Jimbo again. Is it the rumours the love of his life is about to be charged? It cannae be the lack of progress on independence as he disnae care that much - comes in third after Sturgeon and the SNP.
Jimbo knows all about thuggery as he is a self confessed thug - assaulting women now that is true thuggery compared to writing a few uncomplimentary words about a political party.
Jimbo then goes on to say he isnae buying the National anymore
( basically because he thinks it is no longer a Sturgeon fan club newsletter) and isnae going on AUOB marches anymore.
"The Alba trolling is worse than the British Nationalists " he cries out. Jimbo who has been trolling me for years with vile abuse and lies is complaining about Alba trolling. These trolls always playing the victim.
Now I am not a member of Alba but Jimbo seems to forget that most of these vile thugs as he calls them were long standing SNP Members and activists.
Jimbo here is a wee but important fact the people involved in the SNP financial scandals are all part of Sturgeon's gang. I was concerned about Forbes getting tainted by them but it has started earlier than I thought even though she was her usual competent self doing a decent job with a poor brief handed to her re the Matheson scandal. Defending the indefensible.
Now it is a given that Irish Skier and WGD numpty agrees with Jimbo and says none of these people are independence supporters. Par for the course for these guys. Any criticism of the SNP and you are immediately not an independence supporter. That leads to people supporting criminal activities.
DeleteNow the real laugh was poster iusedtobeenglish who agrees with Jimbo and says he has cancelled his subscription to the National as well. So after grovelling to Kavanagh and saying his criticism of the National does not include the big dug the wee dogger says: -
" Criticism is one thing, and where it's constructive and necessary it should happen. There's no place for sychpophancy either......"
I repeat he says THERE IS NO PLACE FOR SYCHOPHANCY 😂😂😂😂
That's right this poster disnae seem to realise he is posting on the most sycophantic site ever - full of nicophants - and a blog that actually states you cannae criticism the SNP and if you want to go elsewhere.
Yep WGD is full of numpty wee doggers.
What is "Dr Jim" to do with anything?
ReplyDeleteThese comments appear to be posted on the wrong blog / site.
Another anon who thinks he is a moderator on this site. Dr Jim posts on this site, like you as an anon. Also he is calling James Kelly, our host, a vile thug when Dr Jim is the self confessed thug.
DeleteBut wait, who is this KC? And what about Scottish Skier, GWC or John Galt? This panoply of characters, past and pseudonymously present, takes a lot of getting into…
DeleteIt’s certainly confusing, I’ve certainly no idea who any of these characters are.
DeleteWhich is ironic, because you read comments by KC every day without even noticing. (Always assuming you're not KC yourself...)
DeleteCant say ive seen any KC either. Or Scottish Skier, GWC or John Galt.
DeleteNot sure what IFS obsession with them is?
Why do people keep posting about other people on other blogs, on discussions that are not partof this blog? It's very tedious and offputting for visiting this site. Is that intentional?
DeleteI do find it tedious as well. I've Neen reading last few weeks and don't have a clue who these people are and it's tittle tattle and brings nothing to the discussion.
DeleteNo need for you to read it. What’s your problem!
DeleteThat list of anons moaning is probably the same numpty from WGD. Very tedious. Anon at 3.52 claims he has been reading SGP the last few weeks but disnae have a clue who these people are. Aye right - you just have to go to WGD. You really don't have a clue do you. Your trolling is shit.
DeleteIs KC King Charles? Or another male / female/self determination?
ReplyDeleteKammilla Cween
DeleteHe was never the same after he left the Sunshine Band.
DeleteI see Brexit Time tonight features Farage, Piers Morgan, Wes Streeting, Damien Hinds and a female black Bishop...for balance presumably, although how you balance four Tories is not clear.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if QT funding comes from BBC Scotland?
Deleteyou forgot the Tory in the chair.
DeleteQT claims to originate at Pacific Quay in Glasgow yet follows the Brit unionist line. Journalists from the spectator have more chance to be on the programme than the snp. During a general election the bbc have an obligation to fairness. So where is the representatives from Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland? The Church of England has more input.
ReplyDeleteThe Irish/French/Scottish Skier makes this incredible announcement:-
ReplyDelete" when you take in to account the fact that Scotland is 2 countries in 1"
Two countries in one - what mince is served up on WGD. No wonder they still idolise Sturgeon they will lap up any rubbish. Numpties.
Wrong again Skier. Scotland is one country being treated like a colony by England.
Always surprised when people are surprised at the media snubbing Scotland etc etc . England disnae have complete control of all the broadcasting media and newspapers in Scotland so they can tell us how wonderful we are. They control it to tell us how useless we are and how lucky we are to have England giving us £2k per head ( it rises to £2.5k per head at elections) more than English people and how we would all be paupers without England's extraordinary generosity.
ReplyDeleteCare to give us the real figures?
Delete
DeleteAnon I'll Help you out. England gives Scotland nothing but abuse and steals our resources.
The UK has run up £3 trillion of debt and independent Norway across the North Sea has run up a £1 trillion savings fund. The wealthiest countries per head of population are predominately small independent countries.
DeleteThe military bully boys tend to be the larger nations.
Limp dims were in government recently.
ReplyDeleteHung parliaments exist
Snp are in government and powers are effected by Westminster spending and decisions
What a closed minded, wrong and undemocratic view this.
It's a union or it's not. In 2014 it was stressed it was a union. Now it's back in your box. They were untruthful
ReplyDeleteAnonymousMay 30, 2024 at 1:24 PM
ReplyDeleteIts a union isn't it? It was the last time I looked.
Strange that you seem to think that Scotland should get the same say as England, which would mean a Scottish vote would have TWELVE TIMES the weight of a vote in England, and you think that's fair?
No but the TV companies should respect the political realities and stop tyring to gerrymander the result by deliberately leaving out the third largest party and largest party in Scotland.
DeleteIf you think scorland is the same as an English region, it's not a union is it.
A lot of systems understand their country is made up of regions with disproportionate say due to historical realities. This isn't new.
Jerry the no campaign was all about scotland being in a union and won on that basis. It wasn't "youre as important as Lancashire".
DeleteIt would be dishonest to claim it was a union and then claim it isn't.
Jerry is a Britnat troll.
Delete
DeleteAnonymousMay 30, 2024 at 3:24 PM
The TV companies covering this are UK NATIONAL coverage, the viewers know that the SNP are not going to be in government or anywhere near it, so having the SNP there is simply for trolling purposes.
There's no way that the vast majority want to see that, and on what metric are the SNP the third largest party?
Limp Dims poll 10% UK wide, Reform UK about 10-15% the SNP has about 3%, so it a minor party in terms of voters.
And why have the SNP, we'll just get the broken record about independence and its "snot fair" and how everything is Westminster's fault as if with independence you'd be able to spend with gay abandon, its a fantasy.
By all means play it out in Scotland if you want but people on national TV in the rest of the UK simply aren't interested in the broken record.
AnonymousMay 30, 2024 at 3:41 PM
DeleteThe No campaign is for Scots to assess as they see fit, like the Yes fantasy campaign based on oil and gas that they now want to shut down.
YOU wanted to be in the EU, a vote for independence was a vote to leave the EU, YOU GOT YOUR WISH!
"Based on oil and gas"
DeleteHas this guy walked in from 1995?
All these talking points are so old school
"There's no way that the vast majority want to see that, and on what metric are the SNP the third largest party"
DeleteThey are, by far, the third largest party in the commons and have specific role due to this status according to the standing orders of that institution.
Your welcome
Good to know the third largest party and party of government in one of the constituent nations is triggering to you.
DeleteThat's a good enough reason as any to continue with the precedent set in 2015.
redefine the word Union . A union of nations each has one vote. Just like China and India have 1 vote each at the United Nations and smaller countries or states have 1 vote. It is also called respect. 62% of Scotland wish to remain in the EU and were ignored. Northern Ireland has more rights than Scotland and strictly speaking is a province of England. No this is not a union but England dictates.
ReplyDeleteSo what you are saying is that people don't get to vote?
DeleteSo if Lichtenstein joins the EU it should have the same say as Germany or France?
England is 85% of the UK population, its one person one vote for overall control.
If you have parity with England then one Scottish vote would be worth 12 TIMES a vote in England, and you think that would be fair?
And one vote in Wales would be worth 17 times a vote in England and in NI it would be about 40 times a vote in England
Dream on, not sure which planet you are on
And if Denmark or Ireland was part of the UK it would be 11 times the size. And? Talk to folk that want scotland in the UK, Jerry. And how they work out how a multi national state works.
DeleteWe just want a normal country and independence like other places. Not in the business of working out the union for you.
No ones saying the vote should mean more you clown.
DeleteWe're talking about who should be on a TV debate
Beaming it into scotland as if the largest party there doesn't exist is not right
Anonymous May 30, 2024 at 3:26 PM
DeleteAs you lot seem to want to join the EU that means QMV voting based on economic size and population, In the UK you get a fair vote on the basic of just population which is greater than your GDP contribution.
BUT - You can't complain about democracy in the UK if you advocate for an even worse system for Scotland in the EU where you'd get even less say overall or proportionally
Wtf are you on about? Ireland has less say in its own affairs than Scotland does it?
DeleteWhat planet are you on?
Hungary has less say than Scotland does it?
DeleteClueless
"You lot"
DeleteYou can hear this guy when reading his prose. It's hilarious.
Yoooo lot.
Precious union of equals
BBC are just as bad.
ReplyDeleteThey have broadcast a “Debate Night’ Show from Kirkcaldy, the seat is currently held by Neale Hanvey. Whether or not you dislike Alba it's quite something to not have the incumbent MP invited to a debate regarding his own seat.
Did he win the seat as an Alba candidate?
DeleteWhat he won as was SNP
DeleteIt wasn't. He had been dumped by the SNP at the time of the election although he was eventually readmitted.
DeleteHe's still the incumbent MP, all incumbents regardless of their Party should be involved in debates if they're seeking re-election.
DeleteTechnically in Westminster elections we vote for the individual, not the Party. What Party the person is a member of is inconsequential.
DeleteObviously many people don't see it that way but that's how the system is supposed to work and what should be considered for debates regarding particular seats.
Didn't he win without SNP support?
DeleteI think he should be on the panel.
Anon at 2.14pm - how could he win the seat as an Alba candidate when Alba didnae exist at the time. Try engaging your brain before posting.
DeleteI FS. Did you really not understand the point being made by anon at 2.14? You come across as irredeemably stupid. Best you stay silent and stop embarrassing yourself.
DeleteThe difficulties of having a 'leaders debate' that is fair to all parties does not alter the fact that the two-party debate is unfair to all other parties. It suggests not having leaders debates at all.
ReplyDeleteIt suggests not having leaders debates at all.
DeleteHalf of them are not in contention or consider themselves a foreign country. Be serious.
DeleteThere are 5 or so parties. It happened before in 2015. Why on earth shouldn't it happen again
thats why Scotland requires Independence and E
ReplyDeleteEngland can do its own thing
ReplyDeleteAye , gie Englabd her independence. Soar Alba!
ReplyDeleteIronically, that's your best bet, ask the whole UK if Scotland should be independent and the English would be more than happy to give you it!
DeleteYou fail to think outside the box!
Basically that's shite .
DeleteThe English , particularly the better educated , ken fine that Scotland keeps the test of the UK afloat.
The proportion of England that is a boring, lifeless shitehole is higher than the similar proportion in Scotland.
DeleteLondon keeps England afloat so berks like you can claim England is providing largesse to Scotland. For most of England it's the absolute opposite.
Thanks for taking us out of Europe against the will of Scots and your own people though. You had a last chance before the old fogies died off and younl squeezed through. What a country
This guy supports and thinks brexit has been a success. I think that says enough.
DeleteI'm sure the fisherman in Scotland, farmers and business are willing listeners.
Even the racists haven't got what they wanted haha
Give it 20 years but I'll gladly wave bye to England on the way back to the eu. I'll be the first to join the EU army in Irish/Scottish platoon to keep the couch potatoes in Cumbria in check.
Jerry is a Britnat troll. Engage at your own risk.
DeleteAnon at 3.54pm - to be more accurate Jerry is a Britnat fascist troll.
DeleteAnonymousMay 30, 2024 at 3:26 PM
DeleteThat's not what the English think, we'd be more than happy to take our 14bn subsidy back and see you go it alone.
Just try us! That's all I ask, go for a UK wide Indy ref, you'd win it hands down!
AnonymousMay 30, 2024 at 3:34 PM
DeleteIf you are so confident of your finances, then give the English a vote and we'd be more than happy to oblige you with your fantasy.
Just one thing, its will be permanent, with no reversal and a hard border and no use of the £.
I mean we've had a UK Government who didn't want to fund people's spare bedroom but are fighting to continue to fund Scotland because they're just that generous and kindhearted?
DeleteThe £s data are there for you to do your own homework.
DeleteScotland is the third richest nation/region GDP per capita in UK. Richer than 9 out 11 other areas.
Richer places receice more money. Go and do the calculation for other regions and you may get a shock.
Not here to do your homework for you.
Up until fairly recently Scotland actually ran a SURPLUS, something unheard of in real economies.
Bet this is the first you've heard this. The brains in London are aware thigh don't worry your wee head.
Oh Jerry please don't stop your direct debit payment from Hartlepool or we'll all starve.
DeletePlease Jerry.
The facts don't care "what the English think" and neither do Scots regarding whether they should be independent or not.
DeleteBelive it or not but your view isn't that important. Barely featured what the English might think, bless, in 2014 and doesn't now either.
"Just try us! That's all I ask, go for a UK wide Indy ref, you'd win it hands down!"
DeleteHahahaha
Anutha Caaaahling puleaaseee
Bloody Jocks, stealing from our Scunthorpe charity tin again.
The people of Morningside and Aberdeenshire are waiting on their giro from the Brexity bits of England. Please continue to subsidise.
The only surplus in your manky, gormless brexity towns are chippy papers flying about your dreary streets. Couldn't pay me to live in 90% of the place. They're the drain on the UK and have f all to show from it.
If you are so confident of your finances, then give the English a vote and we'd be more than happy to oblige you with your fantasy.
DeleteSounds good. What steps do you suggest we take to "give" the English a vote? Voting for any of the main English parties won't work, because they're all strongly opposed to English independence. Which is somewhat curious considering your claim that they would be vastly better off without us.
Jerry. You come across as uninformed and really stupid. Go back to Mail and Express land. You fit right in there.
DeleteAs much as this is like reading a daily express leader column for the unthinking white van man, it does remind me that we spend a lot more time now talking about the machinations of the SNP, greens and Alba than making the case for independence. This is low bar stuff here but it does take me back to when we used to aim our barrels at the union more.
DeleteWullie Bain
the Tory toff councillor in Glasgow
foulkes
pension data
GDP data
the works. We, as a movement, seem to have got lost in talking about NECs and random policies rather than the premise of "can Scotland do it".
We need to get back there.
Your long piece accepts
ReplyDeleteLimp dems were in govt
Hung parliaments exist
Ergo
SNP are third largest party and can therefore on certain votes seriously affect policy.
You're just trying to one vexatious, good for you.
You need to polish up your understanding of Scottish politics, Jerry. Nobody is suggesting we have a debate for 'Hollywood'. We're not asking for any Oscars.
ReplyDeleteLeaders debates with all parties who appear from polling to be in contention of winning seats should be on the debate panel. I see no issue with this.
ReplyDeleteI can't stand margarine.
DeleteAnon at 3.20
ReplyDeleteReading this guy is like listening to a pub bore from 15 years ago pre indyref. The most low detail crap read in a daily express article with the confidence to go with it.
In the grand theatre of Scotland's democratic exercise, it behoves the SNP, a venerable institution, to magnanimously step aside for the Alba Party in constituencies already graced by Alba MPs.
ReplyDeleteSuch an act of selfless noblesse oblige is paramount in our noble quest for independence.
For the sake of unity and the transcendental aspiration of sovereignty, pro-independence factions must harmonize their efforts. This sacrosanct solidarity ensures a potent, undiluted voice in the halls of power, transcending petty rivalries.
Thus, the SNP must exhibit unparalleled grace and vision, yielding to Alba where it reigns, in the spirit of our collective liberation.
Well written post but as the largest party SNP will not stand aside in any seat.
DeleteAll the parties with MPs plus yon Nigel we're on TV debates in 2015.
ReplyDeleteThat's how it should be
NI being a slightly different case just..because
Or the previously elected politicians on a SNP ticket stand down and allow the electorate to choose in an act of magnanimity.
ReplyDeleteThey are not under legal obligation to do so.
DeleteNor moral obligation either it seems. Self serving.
DeleteHonest John has scored a spectacular own goal in continuing to back Matheson over the iPad scandal.
ReplyDeleteLabour and the Tories aren’t going to let this go. Not the ideal start to the election campaign.
At least when Boris Johnson was found out he resigned. The SNP don’t do integrity, that’s for sure.
I agree, these charlatans deserve everything they get.
DeleteNot a good look for some one called “Honest” John 😂😂😂
DeleteAt least when Boris Johnson was found out he resigned.
DeleteDo you have trouble remembering events from more than a year ago?
English guy commenting takes us out of EU off a pack of lies and with a whole load of pensioners giving their younger generation a poison pill before snuffing it. A total blip and fluke we've all to live through but Scotland can't even have its governing party on a TV debate because it's "trolling"
ReplyDeleteF me. Got a brass neck I'll give him that
Don't get old -- you'll be to blame for everything.
Deletenot at all but he's got the brass neck to pretend if Scotland voted for independence it would be a "blip" but probably the last ever chance brexit could squeek home as a majority before more open-minded generation takes over, we've to claim it's the will of the people. The majority has almost certainly died in the preceding years, yet we're all living with the consequences.
DeleteTrump guilty.
ReplyDeleteIs Sturgeon next?
Either way they have both ruined their political parties.
He shagged Stormy Daniels. She shagged some other chick. 😉
DeleteBizarrely,Trump could still win in November.
DeleteWhat has she been charged with? Is it breaking news? She hasn’t been charged with anything to date? Oh right, ok. There are valid criticisms to be made of N S. Why make things up?
DeleteHa ha, didn't take long for someone to try to bring Trump and Sturgeon into it.
Deleteanon says “why make things up” - I asked a question is she next ? Can you not read properly. Sturgeon is still being investigated. Valid question. Wind your neck in.
DeleteTrump is a very innocent man.
DeleteSturgeon is a very innocent woman
Sturgeon supporters are not the same as Trump
supporters.
It’s a general election coming up and the low life bring up sturgeon again! Brexiters Brit nats.
DeleteAnon @10.57am the real lowlife are the people who support criminal activity. Trump and Sturgeon supporters.
DeleteI see Alex Salmond very publicly calling out Ofcom on the unfairness of the "two leader" debate. This is arguably a positive role for an "alternative" pro indy party, to call out things where others for whatever reason feel they can't.
ReplyDeleteSadly that's not what he's doing. He isn't complaining about the two-person ITV debate, but about his own exclusion from the STV debate. A parochial perspective to put it mildly.
DeleteSturgeon promised a National energy company in 2017. Nothing happened.
ReplyDeleteLabour now promise a G B energy company in Scotland. Again nothing will happen other than a shell company to kid the gullible while England continues to steal our oil/gas/electricity. The east cost of Scotland is getting covered in offshore wind farms to send electricity down to
England. Yet we get offensive people telling us we only survive due to England’s generosity. If that doesn’t make you angry then you are a House Jock.
As England’s water gets drowned in shit our water will be next to be plundered.
Nationalist Bullshit.
DeleteWe keep hearing this: we , who want oor ain country back , are the NATS but those who want the status quo are the normal sane folk. ACTUALLY IT'S THE BRITS THAT ARE NATIONALIST AND FURTHERMORE ARE IMPERIALIST BECAUSE THEY WON'T ALLOW SCOTLAND , THEIR COLONY , TO EXERCISE HER DEMOCRATIC RIGHT TO DECIDE HER OWN FUTURE.
Deleteanon at 9.25
Deleteyour piece would strike home more if you didn't reach too far. Clearly there has been an increase in support for independence since 2014. It is very rare for it to be at that level; it has at times clearly been in a majority in the last few years.
To suggest otherwise nullifies your point somewhat. There's obviously been a shift towards independence. Whether it's enough to merit another referendum is another question. But the idea the Union's support is solid is wishful thinking whether you like it or not.
You can always tell a Britnat when they say you had YOUR referendum and YOU lost. Britnats do
Deletenot do democracy for Scotland.
Yeah it's like they genuinely don't think people should be allowed to change their mind due to Brexit, that people in their mid 20s (most pro independence) who've never had a vote on it need to lump it because dead people (overwhelmingly unionist) took the decision for them. It's coming up for a decade since the vote. The you've had your vote won't wash for much longer. Pity the vehicle of the SNP is sullied for now but it'll come again.
Deleteanon at 11.34
Deletegood argument. That's me told. If you think independence has been sitting static at 44% since 2014 you're in the minority. But each to their own. It won't change the facts.
literally can't find a single poll showing independence at 41%.
DeleteI presume the anonymous poster was hiding out in an Orange lodge during 2020 when Yes was in the majority and maybe wasn't allowed out afterwards during the long period of practically 50-50 margin of error.
Erm...whst you're telling us here is the union is supported by a minority of Scots.
DeleteThanks for showing yourself up.
No, no you don't get out that easily.
DeleteYou said there hadn't been a shift to independence. You now know there has been so you were talking nonsense. The reasons are wide ranging and not for you or me to say categorically.
The polls have consistently shown neither union or independence over 50% support. Neither option is vanquished or the settled will. That much is clear. Independence may have youth on it side but union has apathy. We won't know which way it goes. But the idea it stayed static since 2014 is demonstrably pish.
There is a reason nobody serious uses the including DKs trick. And you say others should be embarrassed?
DeleteOn those terms, after 100 years of propaganda and rubbishing of independence, the Union cannot even scrape majority support.
Ask any other country what the settled will is and you'll get high 60/70/80/90% support.
All this proves is Scotland is a rare case of a nation a bit unsure of itself.
It's unsure of the SNP as well! But it's also not tripping over itself to declare loyalty to the union. If all it takes is Sturgeon on a TV screen to turn the tide... jeewiz that's solid foundations right enough. You've got us there, may as well given up. Haha
Seems like some people are so confident of the enduring union that they have to go on to a pro-indy website to try to persuade random strangers that it is so. A union that is so shaky that leaders of 'democratic' parties dare not put the opinion to the popular vote.
ReplyDeleteIf anything, people reminding us of democracy denied in this unequal union could be an incentive for people to vote to prove them wrong.
Exactly. The problem now isn't so much winning a referendum, that would be a toss-up. It's getting a vote in the first place.
DeleteI don't know who they're trying to kid on. If they're in Scotland for any length of time, it's easy enough to find independence supporters. In fact, in my peer group it's harder find unionists!
It may be it never happens, or it may happen. But the idea it's not supported by a massive chunk of people is delusional.
This Britnat Jerry is talking absolute crap. England has 100% control over Scotland. England steals Scotlands resources. The EU does not have absolute control over any of its member states nor does it steal their resources. There is a small amount of shared sovereignty in the EU. On the other hand England is Scotland’s colonial master. Jerry is a bad faith actor - tells lies like most Britnats.
ReplyDelete
DeleteAnonymous May 31, 2024 at 11:29 AM
England does have 100% control over Scotland, that's because you signed a treaty in 1707 to say we could, you don't seem to be able to get over the facts, and yet you lot seem to scream every time the UK government looks at changing or ignoring treaties.
So If you expect the UK government to honour international treaties then maybe you should at least live what you preach, but of course, you don't do you?
Aye right , and the UK joined a union called the EU and managed oot, even when we didna want tae leave . An mind Scotland was in " union of consent"!
DeleteEngland doesn't have 100% control over itself, never mind Scotland. It doesn't have a parliament.
DeleteIn case you didn't notice you couldn't leave the EU without NI support. In any other given topic it could be Welsh and Scottish support in a different set of circumstances, tuition fees dare I say.
Nowhere in the tray of union did it say Scotland must ask permission of England to leave. The treaty was quite clear to keep Scotland as a national entity, a union, not a conquered state (same as England).
DeleteAnonymous May 31, 2024 at 12:28 PM
DeleteThe UK did join the EU by Treaty, and LEFT IT by provision of that Treaty, if you a daft enough to sign a treaty without an exit clause then more fool you I say.
What part of there is a keep us in clause either are you not getting?
DeleteWhere does it say Scotland or England can never leave?
It's not the Spanish constitution. It's not even a constitution at all.
Anonymous May 31, 2024 at 2:01 PM
DeleteIf there's a leaving clause in the treaty, please explain why
1) Mrs Krankie didn't cite that in the Supreme Court Case
2) Why you haven't taken the case to an international court?
Because you know as well as I do, you'd lose, because simply, you don't have a case do you?
The court case wasn't based on the treaty of union. It was based on whether the Scottish parliament had the power to call a vote. It doesn't say Scotland or England or banned from leaving. Only the way to do it must be legal.
DeleteAnonymous May 31, 2024 at 2:22 PM
Delete"The court case wasn't based on the treaty of union"
Oh really? Well OK then bring a Supreme Court case on what the treaty says and challenge that then.
But strangely you aren't? So either you have to conclude that the SNP are clueless, or don't want independence and you are being mugged and sucker'd for years.
Which is it?
It was a mistake to go to the surpreme court, a body set up in 2009 probably with this in mind. The treaty of union didn't categorically say anything about what you're claiming hence the dubiety but the supreme court, unsurprisingly, has been given an opportunity to clobber it with a judgement. The idea was to take it out of uncertainty and go directly to the people in a General Election but SNP lost their nerve.
DeleteIt'll need to come directly from the Scottish people now, if it ever happens via an election. Ultimately if enough Scots vote SNP/indy partied, it will happen but not enough do at this precise moment.
Somebody tell that britnat eejit Jerry that if you don't allow a legal , democratic way for constitutional change , folk might find other ways other than the Ballot box!
ReplyDeleteDesperate stuff!
DeleteI agree we were given a legal way recently but democracy isn't a single event. At some point in the near future you'll have 30 year old tax payers who won't have had their say. It can't be forever.
DeleteWell Nats certainly don’t like the truth cast up to them, that’s for sure!
ReplyDeleteThey continue to live in complete denial, unable to accept their dream is over.
as a brit nat the biggest fantasy you guys have is that england is a big player in world politics. you do what the white house tells you to do.
DeleteAnonymousMay 31, 2024 at 12:31 PM
ReplyDeleteSomeone tell that Anonymous eejit that you had a LEGAL referendum in 2014 and your OWN PEOPLE rejected it.
Seems like a case of Alzheimers there
London felt safe in 2014 to agree a vote. They didn't feel safe to agree a vote in 2022. There's only one reason for this. They were terrified of the result.
Deleteand we can have another if we want. Unless you say little englanders have a veto?
ReplyDeleteWhat's wrong with democracy of the first option? Good enough for other topics.
ReplyDeleteIt's a moot point as the election isn't about independence this time.
That's neither here nor there. You asked a question and got an answer.
ReplyDeleteYou had a thought did you? Okay good on you.
The majority dont want the union either, bud.
ReplyDeleteThat's why we're in a pickle.
You can’t have a reasonable discussion with most Britnats because they lie. Jerry lies all the time so it is a pointless debate. Jerry is a lying toerag.
ReplyDeleteJerry is just here to Englishsplain our Scottish identity and aspirations to use. I'm sure he writes this stuff wearing a pith helmet and khaki shorts with a picture of Queen Victoria above his computer.
DeleteProbably got a picture of King Charles up his arse for inspiration. Or am I mixing him up with that KC poster. Odds on they both have his picture up their arse. Someone told them they would get an OBE if they kept it there for a year.
DeleteThank goodness we have an Englishman tell us how our national identity should be and its limits. If we and many counties had just seen everything from their point of view, everything would be so much easier.
Delete