I was a child when I heard Jeffrey Archer say it, but even then I could see that it was an intellectually bankrupt argument from anyone who claimed to be a democrat. He informed Scotland that it was high time we learned that if we were going to be stuck with a Tory government anyway (because England kept voting Tory), it would be in our own best interests to start electing Tory MPs ourselves, because that was the only way we'd ever get the government to listen to us.
A variant on the same theme appeared on this blog a couple of weeks ago, courtesy of our eccentric commenter "ScotBrit2014", who claims to be two (possibly three) different people. He insisted that by voting against the London parties on May 7th, we had somehow chosen that Scotland's voice should not be heard, and therefore we had no-one but ourselves to blame for the consequences.
Democracy, UK style : You can vote any way you like, but just be aware that you'll be punished if you make the wrong choice. You can vote unionist, or you can SUFFER. Entirely up to you.
And now even the Liberal Democrats are inviting us to wake up and smell the coffee. An article at Lib Dem Voice arguing that the party should be hoping that Liz Kendall wins the Labour leadership contest concludes in the following extraordinary manner -
"This won’t deal with the larger part of “the fear” that a minority Labour government would be propped up by the SNP. I don’t see this going away until the Scottish people realise that Conservative government is a consequence of their supporting the SNP in such large numbers (though they have every right to do it.) That may well take another parliament or two, unless anyone has a bright idea."
Hmmm. Alternatively, the Scottish people may come to the more rational and accurate realisation that Conservative government is a direct consequence of their decision last September to listen to the advice of the Liberal Democrats (among others), and vote against independence. That mistake will only take another referendum to be remedied.
Even if this guy wasn't barking up the wrong tree with his unspoken assumption that Scotland is "trapped" and will eventually learn to be more "realistic", his argument wouldn't make sense anyway. The theory that fear of SNP influence was a decisive factor in England at the general election has yet to be credibly proved, but if there's any truth in it, the responsibility lies entirely with Labour and the Lib Dems for failing to tackle that fear head-on, rather than fuel it. They could have had a mature conversation with the electorate, and pointed out that if it is considered desirable for Scotland to remain in the UK, it's inevitable that Scotland's democratic voice will eventually have to be accommodated and compromised with. Our political distinctiveness is not an infection that can be stamped out, but that was the delusion they chose to peddle instead.
I came to the conclusion that they just weren't very good and it took the Referendum to challenge their assumptions about themselves.
ReplyDeleteI listened to Malcom Bruce a bit after the Ref, on Question Time, talked very statesman like about how 'we' have just had a great debate up here. My thought was, what debate?
I knew there was the ideas and discussions from the Common Weal, RIC, from the Internet Media, Wings, Newsnet, Lalland Peat Worrier, Scot goes Pop and the wide range of people in the SNP and wider Yes campaign; historians and economists.
I had a pile books and files of news articles and papers in files on my computer.
But I waited in vain for the same level of debate from Together. In the end their 'debate' turned out to be the Civil Service, Westminster, the Banks, big business and a whole range of Unionists politicians, saying you will be fucked if you vote Yes.
I'm not going to 'wake up' and find I'm wrong. I woke up, then become wide awake, three years ago, and the mediocrity and self serving ambitions of UK 'establishment' seemed a very pale and dim counter to what I wanted.
Aye, one day we will learn that we must vote Tory and suffer instead of not voting Tory and suffering.
ReplyDelete" An article at Lib Dem Voice"
ReplyDeleteLOL
To be fair James Lib Dem Pravda gives the lunatics on Stormfront Lite/PB a run for their money for being wildly out of touch and trapped in westminster bubble stupidity.
Even if the lib dems weren't a complete irrelevance to scottish politics now it's not as if the very beating heart of Clegg's ostrich faction over at LDV could be relied on for anything other than comedy.
Only today the continuity Clegg candidate Lamb has been caught red handed using dirty tricks against Farron. Most of James regulars will of course know that lib dem HQ and it's cheerleaders are extremely fond of using dirty tricks not just against their political opponents but their own members and MPs who go against the right-wing Clegg orthodoxy.
For those with a short memory Clegg was fastest out of the block briefing against Ming Campbell to get him toppled. There can also be little doubt it is Clegg and his odious ilk who helped Lamb and his staff engage in the diry tricks push/polling about Farron and gay rights since it was Clegg's ostrich faction who first did that years ago when Farron was looking 'dangerously' popular and a possible Clegg replacement among the lib dem grass roots.
" the responsibility lies entirely with Labour and the Lib Dems for failing to tackle that fear head-on, rather than fuel it."
Of course.
It's pure cowardice fuelled by their westminster bubble fear of the Daily Mail and the rest of the idiot right-wing tabloids. It certainly won't matter for the lib dems now that they are an irrelevance, (their comical leadership contest still boils down to who will lead a taxi full of MPs) but as was pointed out on Wings if Labour is still trying appease right-wing tabloids by going along with their bigoted spin on a democratic scottish party then they can wave bye-bye to any chance of meaningful recovery for the foreseeable future.
Now that the unionist parties are fiercely competing with one-another to be seen as the most anti-Scottish, you do realize that there ain't going to be an Edinburgh Agreement 2, don't you?
ReplyDeleteYup. But in reality, if it makes no difference whom we vote for at Westminster, then the mandate can simply be a majority of MP's and the outcome that they sit in Edinburgh. Just like the Irish did 100 years ago.
DeleteWe actually don't need their permission. They are being foolish in their mishandling of the situation. I cant see how they think they are going to hold us in their "union" by entrenching a position we don't accept.
We all know which groups voted No. The demography is clearly running in our direction. Are they going to do a Han Chinese and send in waves of griatric colonists to keep us down?
The tide is running our way. Historically the SNP wax and wane. But every surge gets higher. Even if in the short term we do badly for a few years, the next time will be the end of their colonial rule. Have they learned nothing from all those former colonies who hate them the world over?
Now that unionist party MPs are utterly humiliated and annihilated in scotland, you do realise that out of touch unionists impotently shrieking "we won't let you!" is even more fuckwitted than their previous 'bright idea' that Devolution would kill the SNP andIindependence "stone dead", don't you?
Delete*chortle*
:-)
Caron Lindsay. Why is such a political extremist and all round bigot in a party which calls itself the Liberal Democrats?
ReplyDeleteWhy are there not front page headlines about her disgusting attacks on anybody Scottish or even in her own party who didn't suck on Clegg the way she did?
I'm quite surprised at your description of CL. She seems to me a very typical, fairly beige Lib Dem. What's she done that's bigoted?
DeleteI agree with Keaton. Carol Lindsay is undoubtedly a diehard Brit Nat, but I don't think she is a bigot at all. There are loads of people like Carol Lindsay in the middle classes in Scotland. She is like Christine Jardine, Willie Rennie, Tavish Scott etc. They are more unionist than they are federalists.
DeleteYup.
ReplyDeleteEvery single London based party was exposed during our referendum as out and out conservatives who will say and do anything in order to maintain England's dominance of Scottish affairs.
All the B/S about devolution/federalism shown up to be empty electioneering rhetoric designed to enhance party advantage in England's parliament and nothing more.
Maybe our fellow No voting Scots will waken up to reality one day and decide that Yes,it might be a good idea to have a say in our future.
Criticising the Lib Dems as this point seems a bit churlish. Really, what's the point? We might as well spend our time criticising the Ramblers' Association or the Campaign for Real Ale. They have about the same level of political influence.
ReplyDeleteIs it really churlish? It is really mean spirited to point out that the pish they spout is the reason they got their arse kicked? I think it more exasperation with people who don't seem to realise they lost, or if they did can't accept that they hold any responsibility for it. I remember the same levels of growing anger with the Tories back in the 80s and 90s, as they kept parroting that their loss of relevance was "grievance" politics from people with a council house mentality that had just not got the message. That party has never recovered here. Why? Because they are still spouting the same old bollocks. Even Alex Massie commented on them as being "on the wrong side of history but content to stay there".
DeleteThey are blaming the SNP and those who voted it for not chugging down a cold cup of sick and voting them or labour. Sadly with Scottish labour, they seem content to follow the same line.
Misery loves company after all it seems.
By that logic there is no point criticizing the BNP. Seriously, that's a genuinely strange argument you're making. Like, weird.
DeleteBut we don't spend much time on here criticising the BNP, which is fair enough because they barely exist in Scottish (or even British) politics. And the Lib Dems' current, tangible influence is probably not much greater than theirs.
DeleteIt was also somewhat tongue in cheek.
DeleteWhat is the point of the Libdems?
ReplyDeleteTo heroically sacrifice themselves on occasion, for the good of the country. Look at Greece and think "there but for the grace of God...."
DeleteWhat is the point of the Libdems?
ReplyDeleteOh the bullying tactic, again. If you don't vote how we say, we will come after you with an even bigger gang to beat you up, And we would like, kick, you to hand over your dinner money for the next 5 years at least, kick punch, if you want any peace at all. It's your choice and your own fault if we have to beat you up again and no one will believe what you say so I Wouldn't bother even trying to cry to teacher. Haha...
ReplyDeletewho's the teacher? the ECHR?
Deletegreat metaphor - you might also like https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/06/15/this-dysfunctional-uk-family-of-nations/
I can recall exactly this tactic being used by Labour in council campaigns: vote Labour, or you won't have a Labour councillor to protect you from the Labour administration. And they acted on this, to the extent that the leader of the SNP group protested at the closure of a library, saying that it was being done simply to punish the people in that community for voting Tory.
ReplyDeleteI have a "bright idea" - let's have a Declaration of Sovereignty from the Scottish people. Exercising our democratic right to govern ourselves independently will stop these Unionist bullies in short order - and they would have no-one but themselves to blame for the consequences. What are we waiting for?
ReplyDelete"That may well take another parliament or two, unless *anyone has a bright idea*".
ReplyDeleteI guess that's the LibDem way of excusing themselves from contributing to this process
Its not only English Norms,Its beginning to show its ugly head here in Scotland, Many Debates Are being Curtailed In so called Yes/Snp Type forums, The owners/Admin Have Suddenly decided, they are going to be the voice that dictates Debate, If that Continues, Scotland will become fractured and Be in a worse state than ever, Its bad enough politicians do it, But your Own People ??
ReplyDeleteI don’t see this going away until the Scottish people realise that Conservative government is a consequence of their supporting the SNP in such large numbers
ReplyDeleteGod almighty, I had no idea my estimation of the Lib Dems could go lower, but... they've totally and utterly abdicated any responsibility, haven't they?
Because I'm pretty sure the Lib Dems lost 27 of their seats... to the Conservatives. The SNP didn't lose a single seat to the Conservatives. They actively contributed a net anti-Tory vote - unlike the Lib Dems. I'd say, frankly, that the Lib Dems being eaten by their coalition partners did far more to ensure a Tory majority than fear of the SNP - in this case, we can be *sure* that there were more Tory MPs as a result of lost Lib Dem seats.
But sure, go on, blame the SNP for the Conservatives gaining seats. Not the Lib Dems. Oh no. 27 seats? Nothing to do with them.
I can well see why libdems would switch to labour. But why tory? Perhaps the threat of the SNP kingmaker scenario led them to jump ship. I think it was probably THE decisive issue of the campaign. The tories were floundering around up until last September, waiting, hoping and praying for 'something' to fall into their lap. The SNP surge duly obliged. England doesn't much like hard left separatists. What better way to counter them than to elect tories - right wing unionists?
DeleteTories and labour always form the government - either by themselves or, much more rarely, as senior partner in an coalition / alliance.
ReplyDeleteIt stands to reason that more tory and labour MPs means more power. It means greater access to power and greater access to the cabinet. Which is better - an opposition SNP feebleite or a tory who just also happens to be, oh I don't know.....secretary of state for defence or chancellor?
If you're going to be in, be properly in. Don't have one foot out of the door. If you do, you wont suffer necessarily - you just wont have any influence.