If Ofcom's provisional ruling that UKIP only has major party status in England and Wales is upheld, this will be the position going into the general election campaign...
Conservatives : Major party status in England, Scotland and Wales but NOT in Northern Ireland.
Labour : Major party status in England, Scotland and Wales but NOT in Northern Ireland. (They don't even stand candidates in Northern Ireland on a minor party basis.)
Liberal Democrats : Major party status in England, Scotland and Wales but NOT in Northern Ireland. (They don't even stand candidates in Northern Ireland on a minor party basis.)
SNP/Plaid Cymru : Major party status in Scotland and Wales but NOT in England and Northern Ireland.
UKIP : Major party status in England and Wales but NOT in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
As you can see, there is no such thing as a UK-wide party, so if that is the criterion for inclusion in UK-wide debates, there will quite literally be no-one there. But the real problem here is that there are two parties or alliances that have major party status in two out of four constituent nations of the UK - and, as things stand, the broadcasters are proposing to invite one to the debates and exclude the other.
If this stands, it'll be hard not to conclude that the broadcasters see the so-called "UK debates" as in reality being Greater England debates, meaning that it's deemed perfectly natural for Scottish viewers to be bored to tears by a party that has major party status in England but not Scotland, but it's utterly unthinkable for English viewers to be expected to listen to a party that has major party status in Scotland but not England.
This quite simply isn't tenable. It also means that if the SNP seek legal redress, there'll be a blatant double-standard for them to point out that wasn't there last time around.
* * *
UPDATE : There's a downright inaccuracy in the BBC website's report, which claims - "The regulator is seeking views on whether others should be included in its lists and and says it thinks UKIP will qualify across Great Britain." That is simply not true. The Ofcom consultation page clearly states that UKIP may qualify in England and Wales. There is no suggestion whatever that they may qualify "across Great Britain". It really does appear that some journalists literally cannot distinguish between England and Britain.
Yes, although strictly speaking if you count SNP/Plaid as an alliance you need to count Labour/SDLP and LibDems/Alliance
ReplyDeleteNot so - neither of those form a single parliamentary group at Westminster as the SNP and Plaid do. Naomi Long of Alliance even sits on the opposition benches, in spite of the Liberal Democrats being in government.
DeleteI agree - it feels like a bit of a stretch to lump SNP/Plaid together ('parliamentary group' chat notwithstanding). Presumably the intention is to arrive at a "in 2 countries, not in 2 countries" result that puts them on a par UK-coverage-wise with UKIP.
DeleteCommentor : Any chance we could "notwithstand" your sneering use of the word "chat"? I've no idea what that's supposed to mean.
DeleteIt's a fact that the SNP and Plaid form a single parliamentary group. It's also a fact that there is no equivalent Labour/SDLP or Lib Dem/Alliance group. I note that you haven't denied that.
"It's a fact that the SNP and Plaid form a single parliamentary group."
DeleteIt's a bit of a reach to try and cite that in this context. The two parties might form a "single parliamentary group" in technical terms but they're completely different entities for the purpose of a TV debate - it would be completely unthinkable to have Sturgeon stand on a stage and make arguments on behalf of Plaid whenever Wales came up in the debate (or vice versa). If they can't have a single representative in a debate then why should we be treating them as the same party for the sake of putting together the lineup for that debate?
Even if you want to make that case it's still an incredibly weak argument if we end up comparing UKIP's position (a major party in two countries and capable of getting 10% in the Scottish European elections last year) with the SNP (only stands in Scotland, has no link to England at all and sits in the same group as Plaid in Westminster). I vote for the SNP and even I'm not buying that, so what chance broadcasters/the rest of the political class?
"it would be completely unthinkable to have Sturgeon stand on a stage and make arguments on behalf of Plaid whenever Wales came up in the debate (or vice versa)."
DeleteCompletely unthinkable? That's pushing it a bit. Nicola Sturgeon in two debates speaking on behalf of both parties, and Leanne Wood in one debate speaking on behalf of both parties, would seem to me to be a reasonable enough arrangement.
Forgive my scepticism, but do you really vote SNP?
"Completely unthinkable? That's pushing it a bit."
DeleteIt's unthinkable because they would need a shared policy agenda, which they've never had. As soon as an issue came up that the two parties disagreed on the designated spokesperson would either have to say nothing or present two contradictory statements at the same time. How on earth are they supposed to answer a question on the Barnett formula, for instance?
With refreshing honesty, I suspect - rather as Patrick Harvie handles the fact that there are a "variety of views" about independence within his party.
DeleteThere is a single SNP/Plaid representative every year on Remembrance Sunday at the Cenotaph, and it's always made clear that person is representing both parties.
The honest answer being that Plaid support one thing and the SNP support the exact opposite because they're not actually the same party.
DeleteNo, they support the same thing but for different countries. By no means the 'opposite'. Unionist parties support the 'opposite' thing with regard to that particular political cleavage.
DeleteIf there had been TV debates in the 1983 or 1987 general elections, there would have been a representative from either the SDP or the old Liberal Party. They were in electoral alliance but were not merged at that time and had significant policy differences.
DeleteAnd that's before we even get to the Greens, who in England have had an MP for much longer than UKIP, and who are now regularly polling above the LibDems!
ReplyDeleteA shocker not allowing Greens tv debate
ReplyDeleteTom Bradby (ITV) asked Cameron today: "Time is running out; are you saying you are not going to go in [to the proposed TV debate format] as it stands unless at least the Greens are in?"
ReplyDeleteCameron: "Correct."
Miliband up in arms, screaming 'outrageous'. Does he not see that this makes him look illiberal? Clearly, Cameron will fancy Greens in with the hope they might take some lefty support through the exposure, but appears to be out-maneouvering the hapless Ed once again. It's only a pity that when Scottish branch Labour makes such messes, it is suppressed by the media here.
DeleteOr clearing the decks for the SNP - Labour losing seats to them would suit Cameron in a tight race.
DeleteOfcom is between a rock and a hard place. Their WM masters will trash them if they allow SNP/Plaid in. The public are realizing they are just bums on seats in the WM bureaucracy gravy train. But for how long.
ReplyDeleteHow come the Conservatives have major party status in Scotland?
ReplyDeleteThey usually get more votes than the Lib Dems, and are currently getting more than twice the latter's share in polls. If the Libs are a major party, there isn't any way to say the Tories aren't.
DeleteThe SNP stands in Scotland only, UKIP stands in the whole of the UK (including NI). Hence it would be completely unreasonable to include SNP in UK-wide debates, just as it would probably be unreasonable to include UKIP in Scottish debates due to their current lack of support there. The issue here should really be the lack of England-only debates.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'd love to have the Greens in the debates, they'd take votes away from the Labour party, but I can't see any reason why they should be, they're a credible threat in all of TWO seats nationally.
"UKIP stands in the whole of the UK (including NI)."
DeleteBut Labour and the Liberal Democrats don't stand in Northern Ireland. Are you suggesting the so-called "UK debates" should be between David Cameron and Nigel Farage only?
The SNP would be quite happy if there were England-only debates. Their beef is that the debates involving British parties are shown in Scotland. The result of this is that those parties are given maximum exposure, while the SNP are restricted to the Scotland-only debates. This means the SNP have equality of coverage in Scottish elections (local and Holyrood) but are at a massive disadvantage for wider elections (Westminster or Europe).
DeleteIt was just about defendable for British debates to be shown in Scotland when they only involved what are considered to be major parties in Scotland (Labour, Lib Dem and Tories), but now the broadcasters are proposing to include UKIP. Ofcom are saying that they think UKIP don't qualify as a major party in Scotland. It would be ludicrous for a televised debate to be shown in Scotland that excludes a major party (the SNP) but includes someone else (UKIP).
"It would be ludicrous for a televised debate to be shown in Scotland that excludes a major party (the SNP) but includes someone else (UKIP)."
DeleteIt's no less ludicrous than the alternatives. There are basically three:
1. Have the SNP included in a UK-wide debate even though they're only standing in Scotland which accounts for less than 10% of the UK population.
2. Do away with the whole concept of having UK-wide debates in the first place simply because it inconveniences the SNP.
3. Somehow primitively block the signal/ban it from Scottish TV rather than letting people watch what they want.
The only one alternative that makes any sense would be taking UKIP off the running order (which I would support) but Salmond made the exact same complaint about the TV debates in 2010 when it was just the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems so we're clearly not up in arms about this simply because of UKIP.
"We"? Are you claiming to be an SNP supporter as well?
Delete"3. Somehow primitively block the signal/ban it from Scottish TV rather than letting people watch what they want."
DeleteThis is done with lots of television content. Every week Match of the Day 2 is shown an hour or so later in Scotland because the BBC also shows highlights of Scottish football. I'm puzzled as to how you think this is "primitive".
Yes, I would have made the same argument in 2010, but the potential inclusion of UKIP - who the regulatory authority say is not a major party in Scotland - makes the argument much stronger.
I think it's worth noting that Canadian election debates have included the Bloc Quebecois in the past, even though they only field candidates in a province that has 23.6% of the total population (7.9M out of 33.5M) of Canada. This has included English language debates, even though BQ support amongst Anglophones is much lower than the Francophone population.
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_leaders_debates
If — as current polls suggest — the SNP is in a position to become a partner in a coalition government at Westminster, they should definitely be allowed to present their policies in UK wide debates, regardless of whether they only stand in Scotland.
Delete1971 Thistle - all parties with major party status in England are automatically accorded major party status in Scotland too. Just one of the benefits of the union.
ReplyDeleteThat's not correct. The Ofcom guidance specifically says that UKIP qualify as a major party in England and Wales. It outlines reasoning why it is not a major party in Scotland, which is that UKIP's only significant performance in Scotland was in the European election, while it has scored an average of 4% in Scottish opinion polls and 1% or less in other elections. The report says that Labour, Tories and SNP qualify as major parties in Scotland because they all scored at least 15% in the last general election and have continued to score at least 10% in other polls and elections.
DeleteInterestingly, it also notes the lower levels of support for the Lib Dems since 2010 in Scotland (below 10% in polls and elections). The implication of this is that the Lib Dems may lose major party status in Scotland. I think this would only happen if they lost almost all of their seats and scored a low % in the general election.
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/major-parties-15/summary/Major_parties.pdf
If people in Scotland are dim enough to be swayed by the words of a few smarmy oxbridge chancers on the idiot box, then hell mend them. Anyway, its England who always chose the Government. We are just a side show. So even though it is undemocratic to give undue publicity to one side over the other in elections, unionist bias won't be anything we are shocked to find out about. I suggest you all devote your energy to personally converting people to the SNP/ Yes alliance way of thinking and ignore the bastards.
ReplyDeleteDon't watch their propaganda, don't pay their telly tax. Simples.
There isn't really any fair way of doing this - either some parties will be given an unfair advantage, or some viewers will have to sit through contributions from parties they can't vote for. It's just another artifact of the asymmetrical, back-of-an-envelope constitutional arrangements of the UK.
ReplyDeleteFortunately, it looks like Cameron's found an excuse to skip the debates, and I can't see them going ahead without him, so that should be the end of that.
Looking at the election results in Northern Ireland in 2010, it seems to ne the only party that is in common within the UK for actually standing candidates is - the Greens. Which could mean that the TV debates could have the Greens debating with - the Greens.
ReplyDeleteIt's clear that Ofcom arrive at the desired conclusion and work backwards from there, using and discarding all logic that supports / fails their desired outcome. What they should do is work forward from the data points and come to theit conclusions taking it all into account. Which would show them quite clearly that any broadcasts that take place in any country while excluding a major party from that country, are simply unconscionable and undemocratic.
There is no pan-UK Green party, so they don't qualify either (except through the "parliamentary group" prism).
DeleteCome to think of it - even if we do regard all the Green parties as a single entity, how many seats are they standing in throughout the UK? More than the SNP or fewer?
Keaton : Ofcom seemed to treat the different Green parties as a de facto single entity (which rather reinforces my point about the SNP and Plaid).
DeleteYes, same thought occurred to me. In fact, if UKIP are standing candidates in NI (no idea), thne they would be the only UK-wide party, though currently not predicted to win many or even any seats, as opposed to the SNP with anywhere between 20 and 50 seats.
DeleteOfcom is clueless.
To be fair it's not exactly a surprise the broadcasters paper thin excuses and 'making it up as they go along' criteria for the debates are looking ever more shambolic with every day that passes.
ReplyDeleteIt's not as if those broadcasters are trusted all that much more than the out of touch westminster parties by the scottish public.
Those westminster parties and leaders still have comically low approval ratings which explains why some of them might actually be happy to see the debates collapse about their ears in a farce.
The westminster bubble twits and broadcasters somehow still don't realise that with the SNP approaching 100,000 members it is the third largest party in the UK and easily double the size of the lib dems and kippers. Nor will they be able to hide or gloss over the fact that all the polling points to the SNP winning the third largest number of MPs who will be self-evidently be crucial to the GE and the next westminster government as Labour and the tories look utterly incapable of winning a majority.
On what planet would it be remotely tenable to exclude from the debates the party that would then be critical in determining the shape and policies of the next government? It's utterly ludicrous.
If the debates go ahead without the SNP then you can be certain that the scottish public are going to notice. We will use it in the campaign on the ground again and again and again as absolute proof that all the "Better Together" propaganda spouted by the tories and labour was and is complete bollocks.
The Smith Commission and the VOW has completely failed to stop or put a dent in the SNP and Yes parties. The tories, Labour and lib dems better get ready for the backlash these farcical debates would cause as it is a complete gift to the SNP in terms of proving just how out of touch little Ed, the fop Cameron and calamity Clegg are with ordinary scots.
It shows that the UK is not a democracy when propaganda TV decides who is allowed to debate who to which party carries on the dictatorship.
ReplyDeleteNick Clegg Pledges To Stop Alex Salmond And His “Ragtag Mob Of Nationalists”
ReplyDeleteI suppose it makes a change from being labelled as insurgents or nazis.
Folk star boycotts festival opening night concert over BBC’s indie ref “bias”
Good to see some people with integrity.
In my opinion, if the SNP is excluded, then the debates shouldn't air in Scotland. Not ideal as Joe Public can still read about it and catch up on YouTube. But it is frankly unacceptable that voters in Scotland can watch a debate where the largest party, by some considerable margin is effectively censored.
ReplyDeleteI think that hits the nail on the head
DeleteOfcom is peopled with ex BBC & Channel 4 directors. Highly paid factotums or servants of the British state. e.g. Press TV an English Iranian channel was taken off the air by Ofcom. George Galloway stated that Ofcom is not independent but ruled by the UK government. e.g. Baroness Noakes former BBC Director, BBC Trustee until 2011, former House of LOrds Conservative whip.At a House of Lords Committee Hearing on 6 May 2014, Dame Patricia Hodgson of Ofcom said that it was useful, when dealing with big players (Google, Sky etc) "to have a power in our back pocket", i.e. that the UK'Government is willing to apply pressure" on behalf of Ofcom! So Ofcom works 'hand in glove with Westminster. Therefore no surprise whatsoever that Ofcom has banned the SNP & Plaid Cymru from the GE Debates.
ReplyDelete