Tuesday, August 19, 2025

If the SNP conference is to be denied the chance to consider the "rebel" motion, then John Swinney's plan must either be defeated or amended to remove the harm from it

I was asked by a commenter on an earlier thread what I think of Robin McAlpine's new piece claiming that the "rebel" motion, proposed as an alternative to John Swinney's heavily-criticised strategy for winning independence, has been rejected behind closed doors and will not even reach the floor of the SNP conference.  If true, this is not a major surprise, because a source had briefed the press weeks ago that it would all play out this way.  I obviously agree with Robin that it's hopelessly inconsistent with the principle of internal party democracy - and incidentally it's also inconsistent with the logic of even bringing the Swinney plan to a conference vote in the first place, because if the leadership's attitude is that "John has chosen his strategy and he must be allowed to lead", then why not drop the pretence of a democratic process and just impose the strategy by diktat?

As I've rehearsed at length previously, I also take the same view as Robin that the Swinney plan is unworkable and seemingly designed to fail, because the outright SNP majority that is being proposed as the threshold for a mandate for an independence referendum is utterly unachievable.  But where I part company with Robin is in his assessment that all of this means that the SNP have become "an irrelevance".  That clearly makes no sense in relation to a party which forms the government of Scotland and looks set to be re-elected for another five years of power next May.  It's also a nonsense in a world where there is no credible alternative to the SNP as the vehicle for winning independence.  Alba squandered any chance of being a viable alternative by turning itself, grotesquely as a form of conscious choice, into a Stalinist freak-show.  And the only minor-party alternative to Alba is the "Liberate Scotland" alliance, which is roughly one-third composed of a far-right party which wants to do a Belarus by withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights, to ban *all* economic migration, and to determine the citizenship of an independent Scotland on ethnic grounds.  Er, no thanks.

So the SNP remain the only game in town, and we just have to work from within to try to improve the situation somehow.  If the rebel motion doesn't make the conference floor, the next best outcome is to radically amend the Swinney motion so that it closely resembles the rebel motion.  If that's not possible, the next best outcome is to defeat the Swinney motion altogether.  And if it's not realistic to do that, the very least that needs to happen is for the motion to be amended to remove the most harmful stuff from it.  As I've said before, no plan at all would almost be better than the Swinney plan, which would leave us in a worse place than ever before by setting a precedent of the SNP going into an election essentially agreeing with the UK government that no referendum should occur until some sort of ludicrously unattainable threshold is reached.  That could make it impossible to achieve independence for literally decades to come.  The voting system simply isn't designed to produce single-party majorities.

In the words of Hippocrates, "first do no harm".  If the best that can be achieved at conference is to ditch the single-party majority target and replace it with a multi-party majority for securing a mandate for a referendum, I would consider that a win of sorts. It would still mean that the 2026 election is a dead end for winning independence (what we really need to do is use the election to seek an outright mandate for independence itself, not for a referendum), but at least we'd be avoiding the self-inflicted wound of setting a disastrous precedent.

*. *. *

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54 comments:

  1. The only way to remove harm from Swinney's proposals is to drop them completely.

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  2. Doesn't it also make it more difficult if Swinney's Plan isn't defeated and becomes official SNP policy to then turn round and essentially ask voters to endorse the plan by voting for it in 2026?

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    1. If it isn’t defeated, it becomes official SNP policy for their 2026 manifesto.

      So asking people to vote SNP in 2026 would, in effect, be asking them to endorse the plan — which is a problem if they don’t agree with it.

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    2. You mean we'd be unable to get the unworkable plan to work? Well, that would be a blow.

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  3. As an ordinary party member how do I try to have the Swinney proposal amended? Like others I speak to, I feel my opinion has no voice within the party.

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    1. Silence is golden for the SNP leadership.

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  4. My branch has backed the alternative plan. I'm not sure we see ourselves so much as rebels as simply concerned party members who want the merits of the two approaches debated. If the alternative fails in a vote at conference then at least the matter will have aired. If the debate does not take place then I fear heads will go down. The party must return to democratic principles or it will fail to reconnect with the wider Yes movement. If that happens John's plan is dead in the water. The SNP may well win in 8 months time but if still on about 30% then with fewer MSPs. There may not even be an indy majority with the Greens. If that happens then independence is on hold (unless Labour MSPs are so freaked by Reform that they come on board. However, if that looked likely Starmer would probably have them all locked up as terrorists.)

    In short I think the SNP need to have this debate for the well being of the party. If conference then goes with John's plan then so be it, people will get behind it even if they have reservations but if debate is blocked then many will not get behind it, some may even give up. I really hope that the leadership of the party are in touch enough to realise that this is one of those pivotal moments.

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  5. I live in hope that the early draft was run up the flag pole as a tester and is now being refined from the feedback prior to publication of the final agenda. Time will tell.

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    1. I had hoped that too but Swinney almost immediately doubled down on his plan by saying nothing else will work.

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  6. F itb all goes up just imagine joann lament on charhe

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  7. As a lifelong supporter of the Union I don’t think I’ve ever been so downbeat on the prospects of its survival. Independence is inevitable. It’s all so very depressing.

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  8. The Swinney plan will pass. Conference attendance will be limited, obstructed and packed with payroll attendees. You know this, you've seen it countless years before. You're as well preparing yourself for any other outcome to be, at best, deeply unlikely. That doesn't leave the SNP as "the only game in town." That leaves there being NO game in town. It doesn't mean "there is no credible alternative to the SNP as the vehicle for winning independence." It means there is NO credible vehicle for winning independence. The most likely outcome here, on your own assessment is that is will be "impossible to achieve independence for literally decades to come." Time to be honest with ourselves.

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    1. I don't think you're a concern troll, but you couldn't have done a better job at sounding like one. If the worst happens, if the Swinney plan passes unchanged and the 2026 result is poor, we pick ourselves up and start again. It'll be harder but we never stop trying.

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    2. James, that is not the worst case scenario, it is just the most likely scenario, going on past form.

      The worst case scenario is if Swinney’s faction pass their leadership election reform plan, which gives them the effective power to veto candidates for all future leadership elections.

      Eternal Devo win. Now that’s what I call bleak. Can you really put it past them?

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    3. What happens if Fire Alarms consistently disrupt proceedings? Asking for a friend.

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  9. You’re spot on with your analysis James. We need to go for the least worst option. You would think Swinney would have learned from the “once in a generation” debacle. Now he seems set to tie his own and his successors’ hands for the foreseeable future.

    I wonder if the best we can hope for in the face of hostile UK governments is to argue for Scotland’s right to hold a referendum when Holyrood chooses, rather than when Westminster deems it necessary (and safe).

    Maybe it could be tied to something like in Northern Ireland, i.e. when it looks like Yes would win. But rather than the Secretary of State Against Scotland deciding when that is, perhaps base it on opinion polling or a nationalist majority at Holyrood instead.

    This way an important principle would be recognised, namely that the holding of a referendum on Scotland’s future should be Scotland’s decision alone to make. That would also be pretty hard for the unionists to argue against. It would also get us out of this interminable debate about how to get a referendum, when the constitutional reality is that Westminster can just say no forever.

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    1. Issue is: Unionists won't willingly agree to anything that could end up resulting in a pathway to independence, they have no reason to. The status quo suits them perfectly fine and the SNP are doing a fine job in harming themselves without any assistance... so from their point of view all they really need to do is sit back and wait.

      Also I don't think Holyrood will close, unionists also like getting bums on seats giving themselves inflated salaries. Holyrood allows them to do that, it's a perfect place for careerist politicians... and the only thing potentially greater to them than maintaining the union: their own greed.

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  10. No James, not concern trolling, just hard truths. I genuinely believe, looking at the last few years of conferences, that his motion will pass, unamended. The accountability of the SNP leadership to its members has been severed.

    My real concern is what happens to the still considerable energy for independence when you remove all valid, credible democratic routes for it to be expressed.

    It worries me.

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    1. Exactly, Ghav. If we use the same standard of evidence on Swiney as we do the British nationalists, and judge him not just by his words but by his actions, is there really any credibility to the idea that he doesn’t know what he’s doing? Going by his actions alone, he is nailing the coffin of independence.

      We can debate why, but we can’t debate his revealed, practical goal. He and his faction will be the end of Scotland.

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    2. The Swinney plan is the long term result of the SNP members lazy idolatry of Sturgeon and her cronies. Swinney was there during all the years of broken promises about a referendum and even told Sturgeon not to hold one. Amazing anyone expects anything different from Swinney.

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  11. YouGov, Westminster voting intention, field work 18th August.
    Scottish sub-sample (152)
    Con 10%, Lab 16%, LibDem 10%, SNP 38%, RefUK 19%, Green 3%

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    1. Labour are doing surprisingly well there. Anas Sarwar must be thrilled at this endorsement of his success as party leader. [No, I haven't been eating magic mushrooms and i didnt inhale them.]

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    2. The lowest yet for the Scottish Greens. They are heading for disaster, possibly complete wipeout next year.

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    3. Is it now dawning on you that Nicola was protecting her pesonal position rather than indy.

      The BBC had an thingy about immigration today and the protest in Falkirk.. won't be too long before they expose Nicola, then they followed with Christina Hendry, legal action.. James is not a fan..

      But in the grand world of politics the wind is changing, the old rules are less applicable.




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  12. James have you not gone from a party with no internal democracy (the SNP) to another party with no internal democracy (Alba) then back to a party still with no internal democracy (the SNP)?

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    1. Everything is relative. I was a delegate at the SNP constitutional conference in March and it was far superior to anything I experienced when I was in Alba.

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    2. What did that conference accomplish?

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    3. Could argue tough that being more effective at creating the illusion of internal democracy is actually worse than it being obvious. When the wool is being pulled over members eyes, any kind of meaningful change takes a lot longer to happen.

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    4. "What did that conference accomplish?"

      What would you expect it to "accomplish"? It was a conference held to revise the SNP's own constitution.

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  13. Robin McAlpine says it has been rejected behind closed doors. Did he expand on who told him that - or is it Robin jumping the gossip gun again to stir - which he is very good at?

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    1. Robin tends to get upset that matters in Scotland aren't fitting his agenda.

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  14. As a stalwart SNP supporter and member. I just don't think its worth me taking the time off and the travelling expense to go to conferance. It all seems like a stitch up. I won't get to vote on the things that are important to me.

    I'm sad and just feel the SNP are not invested in a free Scotland but are saying to us you need to keep us in the job ( and each year we get a bigger pension) and if you do that we will get better at it.

    James is there anything you think you can really do to advance Indy?

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  15. The trouble is, it's nearly impossible to have an opinion on Swinney's independence strategy without sounding like a concern troll!
    James is quite correct to say the SNP are the only game in town but also that the Swinney plan is obviously doomed and that the precedent it sets is an act of self harm (possibly as bad as Sturgeon going to the supreme court).
    On top of that, the SNP have a strong history of railroading their plans through without amendment. Debate is dissent, pretty much.
    From where we are right now, I honestly believe a change of leadership before next year has to happen but for all sorts of reasons won't / can't.
    I am as committed to indy as ever, probably more than ever seeing what is coming down the tracks from England with Reform but it feels like the politicians have given up on us.
    I just blindly wish that JS can give us the best year of his career and somehow make his plan work (or even get close). But, John, please give us a sign. Soon!

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    1. He's not the Messiah! He's a very naughty boy.

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    2. A massive issue: Unlike Swinney's last tenure as Leader this isn't anyone obvious in the wings who could realistically takeover, bring the Party back from the brink, restore competence and reprioritise independence.

      Many suggest the idea that Swinney can be replaced as Leader... but realistically it will need to be an MSP who replaces him and we know all of the candidates standing for the SNP in 2026... it's an incredibly difficult task to find any suitable names in that list with the qualities required.

      There is a severe talent gap and it's not looking likely that will change in the next Parliament.

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  16. I'm late on this thread for personal reasons.

    Two paths need to be followed at once. Combatting the Swinney 'careerists dream' as outlined by James and building awareness in our population that independence cannot be won by traditional parliamentary politics alone. SNP branches are the places for the first to organise, YES groups for the second. Various united fronts exist. Believe in Scotland, although imperfect is one, the new Sillars initiative may prove to be another. Even the Corbyn party might have a role.
    Activists are going to have to learn to wear several hats. Habits of hyper critisism of groups are going to have to be less bitter and personal, more politically calculated and new people integrated with a firm understanding that the UK is an authoritarian and deeply duplicitous state on the issue of self determination for Scotland. We need to break the grip of the myth of a 'gentlemans agreement' being possible.
    Never give up !

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  17. The fake rev once again showing his stupidity. An easily understood couple of lines in the N S autobiography and he really does not understand what they mean. Will the simpleton who rushed headlong into defending the fake rev by displaying his abject ignorance on the differences, substantive and consequential, between not guilty and not proven be quite so impetuous this time, or has he learned his lesson? I suspect he is too stupid to know to keep his rather dense head down. It could be another roasting for him. Poor thing. He should have stayed in the village.

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    1. The deliberate misunderstanding and misinterpreting of words is the wingsy go to strategy for his readers who are happy to misunderstand everything they read that is written by a man who can spell and understand the word *manipulation*

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    2. It's quite an important point to clarify though, the court case didn't conclude that the things Salmond was accused of probably happened but there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute… it concluded the events didn't happen.

      The suggestion that Salmond won the court case but is still guilty anyway is serious slander, and dragging a dead mans name through the mud to sell copies of a memoir is borderline evil. It's no wonder it has resulted in his widow Moira continuing the legal action he was pursing prior to his death.

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  18. John Swinney should be given credit for turning the party's fortunes around and steadying the ship.

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    1. Indeed.
      Some of the criticism of Swinney is ott.

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    2. Sadly, too many don’t seem to appreciate what JS has done.

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    3. ... he's swerved away from the rocks just in time to meet the on-coming icebergs.

      Well done Capt'n John!

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  19. Maybe we're just too tied into too many of the 'independence would resolve all of our problems right now' myth - because we know transitioning would truly depend on all of the stars aligning in our favour, particularly global economic responses. We go on about how we are a rich country - but we hardly own anything which could financially sustain us. Everybody but us owns the things which bring in the big bucks and we have been dependent on them. We brag we don't need the block grant - when we really really do need whatever we can get. We have no immediate massive source of finance that we can honestly say is our own - or enough to dig us out of any holes. And because UKplc is down the slippery slope - there is little practical move we can make to stop us, as a result, being also on that slippery slope.

    It's all very well saying if all the 'indy' parties unite - we have a chance of getting an indy majority at Holyrood - but we can't even be sure that majority is even likely. We still wax lyrical that in Scotland we think differently from doon sooth - where the Falkirk against asylum seekers rally (and no doubt there will be more) - shows us that Scotland is nowhere near being a groupthink cohesive tolerant country. We are still mired in sectarianism and misogyny and racism.

    There is not a single independence 'influencer' who can honestly say they have anything like a coherent blueprint for the realities of a transition to, or independence itself. Because they know that if the world's economists can't predict a week ahead right now - there is fat chance of any economist even beginning to map out anything realistic for an independent Scotland. It's impossible. Alex knew it was impossible - which is why he really was very worried of the chances of a Yes vote in 2014. It's why one of his closest aides said Alex had made Sturgeon the minister for the referendum 'in case anything went awry'. And then he walked off with a thank goodness that's over. It's hardly likely - for all he said to keep supporters on side and keep the myth going - that he truly believed independence could be had for Scotland.

    The construct of Alba was set up for one purpose only - and that was for Alex. The bulk of Kenny MacAskill's talk these days - is all about the past. Other activists from the past, Alex from the glory past days, how things were done in the past, how independence events were done in the past. He avoids anything about the future. He doesn't say here's an economic plan for an independent Scotland etc. Because he doesn't have one and knows nobody could produce one in current circumstances. He's not talking about independence - he's talking about managing devolution in Holyrood. Which is the reality of what has to be done and what would be best for Scotland right now.

    The country doesn't want to hear anything about independence - which is why those doing the 'destroy the SNP' talk - want the SNP to be stupid enough to front with it. The auld boys from the past just want to see 'Alex's' SNP crucified and out because they don't want it to exist without daddy Alex.

    There IS NO independence campaign for Holyrood 2026, it's all about a parliament that works for Scotland and most people think an independence majority would be unhealthy. They all want a cross-party rainbow parliament. This 'big push' notion for independence is a red herring - one they accuse the SNP of - but it applies to the other supposedly independence parties as well. Let's face it - how could MacAskill and Alba fully concentrate on an independence campaign for Holyrood - when their priority is the alleged 'justice for Alex' case. Ask the journos - they know - and some of them are event hinting they know who is going to win any such case.

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    1. An excellent post.

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    2. A lot of assumptions in there, bruv, such as 'most people think an independence would be unhealthy' That said you are correct about the preoccupation of a minority about justice for St Alex, To be rather brutal - he's died, move on to today's situation in Scotland.

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    3. Scotland “owns nothing”? Utter nonsense.

      Scotland has massive renewable potential—we generate the equivalent of 113% of our electricity demand from renewables. Offshore wind, tidal, hydro—these are not Westminster’s assets, they’re ours, and London skims the cream off them through grid charges and energy levies. Add whisky, life sciences, tourism, and world-class universities, and the “we own nothing” line collapses on contact with reality.

      “We rely on the block grant.” Yes, because we’re trapped inside a system designed to keep us reliant. The Barnett formula is not generosity—it’s a leash.

      “Scotland doesn’t want independence.” False. Polling has hovered around 50% Yes for years despite relentless Westminster sabotage and the SNP shooting themselves in the foot.

      And spare us the “no plan” lie — there have been detailed plans, growth commissions, and currency strategies spelled out for years. Just because careerists in Holyrood are too scared to act on them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. As for the smear that Salmond never believed in indy — pure fantasy. Nobody gives decades of their life, take the hammering like the one he took and kept fighting literally right up until their death if they don’t believe.

      The truth is simple: Scotland has the wealth, the resources, and the brains to thrive, and the only thing holding us back is the cowardice of our current leadership.

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    4. Anon@9:10The journos know who will win the 'Justice for Alex' case do they? And they all took the time to tell a nonentity like you about it? Leave off the glue next time.

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  20. McAlpine isn’t a member of the snp as far as I know but wishes to dictate policy. There are quite a number of prominent persons such as Riddoch who similarly believe they have that right. As a paid up member it gets my goat. My comment is solely on this point not the specifics of the argument. For that, Independence should be on the ballot paper. It costs nothing yet says plenty.

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    1. SNP can adopt any policy they wish.

      However, when it comes to the constitutional issue the SNP do not own it. They can offer up their 'strategy' in an election prospectus as to how they plan to achieve it.

      However, people are entitled to point out that when that offering is variously foolish, impractical, fraudulent and treacherous.

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    2. Anon at 10.39. You are facilitating the SNP policy of putting Indy on the back burner for the foreseeable future. It is your choice , but you need to own the consequences. A unionists govt will see Holyrood reduced to little more than a talking shop.

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  21. Anon at 9.10. A long winded version of too wee too poor too stupid. No thanks. Any contractual obligations of the Westminster government are a problem for them to sort out. We have no liability. We will be reclaiming and taking control of our natural assets. We are an energy rich country with legal and banking systems already in place. We have works class foods and strong fishing and agricultural resources. Why do you think Westminster is desperate to keep hold of Scotland? In your own time. You

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