This morning brings word of a new Survation poll for Angus Robertson's Progress Scotland organisation, which goes 1990s retro by asking a multi-option question on Scotland's constitutional future, rather than a straight Yes/No question on independence. The results have been given as an exclusive to the Daily Record, which is fair enough - if you can get Pravda to report on a bad news story for Labour and their Precious Union, why not? The only snag, though, is that the Record have - true to character - presented the results in a somewhat garbled manner. But as I understand it, these are the top preferences of voters:
Independence inside the EU: 34%
Independence outside the EU: 8%
More powerful Scottish Parliament inside the UK: 19%
The status quo inside the UK: 22%
Abolition of the Scottish Parliament, return to direct rule from London: 17%
There are two ways of looking at these numbers. If the two pro-independence options are combined, they come to 42%, and if the three non-independence options are combined, they come to 58%, which is a bigger gap than in conventional Yes/No polls. But that can perhaps be partly explained by the very fact that there are more non-independence options than pro-independence options - some people without strong views tend to gravitate towards the middle option, no matter what it might be.
On the other hand, the three options that involve a more powerful Scottish Parliament command the support of 61%, compared to only 39% for either the status quo or for fewer powers. So clearly the "line in the sand" and "enough is enough" narrative from unionists has failed to chime with voters.
* * *
Something very peculiar has been going on in the comments section of this blog over the last five days or so. What appears to be one person has been posing as an army of befuddled and indignant "casual readers", all posting anonymously and all with suspiciously identical writing styles, who purport to be downright *furious* that this blog used the easy-to-grasp concept of swing, introduced by David Butler as long ago as the 1950s, to extrapolate from last Thursday's local by-elections to a potential general election result. He's tried to dismiss Butler's concept as "hocus pocus" or "not cutting the mustard" - well, good luck with that, mate. The true reason for his anger is likely to be that the calculation shows that the SNP would have a national lead of around eight percentage points, putting them into landslide territory in Westminster terms. But he doesn't actually dispute the calculation, and nor can he, because anyone can replicate it for themselves. Instead, all he's left with is repeatedly spluttering "you can't extrapolate from local elections to Westminster".
Of course you can. In doing so, all you're saying is that if people vote in the same way in a general election as they do in local elections, and if last Thursday's results were typical, the SNP would win big across Scotland in a general election. So is there any particular reason to think people vote differently in general elections from local elections? Well, yes, recent history shows there is a modest amount of divergence. But here's the thing - the SNP have actually tended to do less well in local elections than in other types of elections. So if you make an adjustment to take account of that phenomenon, the SNP's big projected national lead would actually increase in a general election context, not decrease.
As the president of the Donald Trump Fan Club Of Somerset might put it: "what's your point, caller?"
61% pro-Home Rule, 39% pro-London Rule is probably pretty much on the money.
ReplyDeleteAgree totally.
DeleteDepends on how you think the 19% devo plus voters would vote if given a straight choice. More likely to vote YES I'd say, after the VOW was broken. That "I see what you mean" posting mine as well by the way.
DeleteIt's 17% London rule. The 22% status quo is a no more new powers but retain current devolution. Which we are told isn't London rule but superdooper devo to the max!
DeleteI see what you mean about the way the Record has presented the results. But the headline is OK:
ReplyDelete"Most Scots choose independence as first choice for constitutional change, poll finds"
2% margin of error accord survey monkey.
Says yet another concern troll from These Islands.
ReplyDeleteThe above is a reply to a deleted comment from KC.
DeleteI wonder if KC is Kelvin Vague?
DeleteThis KC is a right pain in the arse.
DeleteI'd like to know what happened to the Sunshine Band.
DeleteHeadline on Herald: "Independence emerges as most popular choice in poll on constitutional future". Headline on its article: "Independence leads in poll on constitutional future", and first sentence: "A new poll has found that Scots favour independence as their ideal constitutional future."
ReplyDeleteLooking good.
but Labour, tories, liberals, the farage lot, bbc, Liz Smith, Foulkes and the House of Lords, King Charlie and his bidey in say no.
ReplyDeleteOn this alone we must have a Holyrood election on Independence First and Foremost. SNP 1 Other Independence parties 2
Just as tight as all the other polls...
ReplyDeleteIndependence options 34 + 8 = 42%
UK options (discounting total abolition of HR) 19 + 22 = 41%
Persistent little concern troll aren't you Kelvin?
DeleteWhy would you discount total abolition of HR as a "UK option"?
DeleteI certainly know people who would abolish all politicians.
DeleteWhenever I delete KC's "sorry if this is off-topic but GLEN SANNOX" posts, I think of the real Glen Sannox, which is a spectacular glacial valley in Arran that I've walked up about four or five times over the years. I very much doubt KC has ever been there, somehow.
ReplyDeleteI think it’s fair to say most people would agree with KC regarding the ferries.
DeleteIt’s embarrassing.
I think it's fair to say you are KC, and yes, what you do on a daily basis is embarrassing. Didn't you tell me a few months ago that you were going to sod off? Whatever happened to that (excellent if I may say so) plan?
Delete17% for abolition of Holyrood seems unusually high.
ReplyDeleteSeems low to me, considering the SNP shambles of the last few years.
DeleteIt went down from the Devo Ref 24.6% NO, to 8 to 10% from 1999 to about 2004 in the SSAS, and was steady up to the last one. 17% is a bit of a worrier. I agree with the other comment - it is the fault of the SNP, and perhaps much of that is the way they blame Westminster even for devolved issues.
DeleteThe electorate isn't as daft as the SNP would like them to be; what is daft is the SNP's ivory tower where they smell each other. And think it's OK to use limos for jollies, but that's another story which unless there's repayment and proper apologies, will cost the moronic SNP dearly in terms of votes.
17% needing their heads examined.
Delete42% need their heads examined.
DeleteVote in 1997 for a Scots Parliament (from Wikipedia)
ReplyDeleteYes 1,775,045 74.29%
No 614,400 25.71%
Seems more Scots prefer our parliament these days. No doubt the hard line brit nats believe westminster inc. unelected Lords is more democratic.
The truth hurts it seems for some people. Great response.
DeleteI've always wondered how the pro EFTA + Yes Scots (like me) vote given these options.
ReplyDeleteChoices are potentially 1, 2 or none of the above depending on how you read it.
That's 'Independence outside the EU'.
DeleteEFTA is only a choice when there's no choice, you think about it EFTA
DeleteIt seems some of the folk that don’t like the eu voted pro Brexit which has been a complete economic mess, damaging Scotland. Only Northern Ireland profits while Scotland was denied is political mandate to remain. Pro independence in Europe or pro Brexit in the U.K.?
ReplyDelete17% for abolition. That's a surprise. I bet that tallies well with support for Reform.
ReplyDeleteMaybe a bit protest vote for Reform and abolition. Politicians are not flavour of the month of November.
Delete83% don't want this Scottish Parliament abolished.
Deletenew poll in : do you support nuclear annihilation of westminster, the rich parts of London and the anglo elite partially burned and hung from the gibbet?
ReplyDeleteYES : 100 %
NO : 0 %
Bloody "Statista" at it again.
DeleteStatista is worthless on this - they only quote Yougov.
DeleteYeah, Statista are hopeless, not worthy of the term "pollster" at all in my view. Much better to look at Ipsos, Favesurv, OpinoSpa and PollAndBangWe.
Deleteis that based on sub samples?
Deleteif current trends continue, we can confidently say that 87.8% of statistics are made-up, on the spot
DeleteSo, looking at the MOD cuts. Northumblerand type 23 was near end of service anyway, so a sensible decision with structural damage (there were hints of that before, frankly). The two Wave class oilers also sensible - there are replacements already in operation. But the two Albion Class is stupidity on stilts - it leaves precious no amphib capability, and is also bad news potentially for the Royal Marines which the previous dunderheids wanted to cut.
ReplyDeleteIf the RM get cut that's bad news for Scotland, both devolved and indy, as it's clearly a capability we'd need to rebuild - along with some cheaper equivalent of the Albion or Bulwark. Maybe we could get Independent real soon now and buy up one of the two. Should be going cheap cheap.
And now for something quite interrrrresting.
ReplyDeletehttps://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mod-confirms-alternatives-if-rosyth-unavailable-for-carriers/
"MoD confirms alternatives if Rosyth unavailable for carriers"
Which, translated, means the MoD are looking at what to do if or when, Scotland becomes Independent. Which also by the way, makes the Faslane / Coulport thing answered - there will be plans for swift relocation (within 10 years, more like 5). Probably are already.
Wrong.
DeleteIt would take at least a decade, if not longer, to relocate the Trident Boats and associated warheads elsewhere in the UK and at least £20 Billion in costs.
And that is only if planning permission would ever be granted to base that lot elsewhere on these islands - which is looking increasingly improbable.
Wrong.
DeleteIt would take nowhere near a decade to relocate the "Trident Boats" themselves - more like a couple of weeks or even none - to Devonport which has a nuclear licence. And similar for any warheads, to Burghfield which has a nuclear licence as well as Aldermaston.
You completely miss the actual problem in your attempt at passing off an opinion (a poor one) as FACT - ignorant arrogance - "wrong" indeed - which is to marry the warheads to the missiles, and load the 55 ton missiles vertically into the silos of the boats, which is needed to keep them operational.
And it's not my opinion on the timescale, it's Chalmers of RUSI back in 2014. And at a cost of well less than £10 billion. If you know how to use google, check out "Relocation Relocation Relocation Trident" and take the RUSI link.
You're welcome.
Garbage.
DeleteThat RUSI researcher is hardly 'independent' pal.
There is even a rider from RUSI stating his views do not reflect those of RUSI itself, in any case.
Attached is a link to independent Naval Experts/Academics/Ex Naval Personnel who conclude that, not only would any attempted relocation to anywhere outside Faslane/Coulport be horrendously expensive and very lengthy, but would simply not be feasible -
https://www.navylookout.com/why-relocating-trident-away-from-scotland-is-virtually-impossible/
Dearie dearie me "pal". You are being taken for a mug.
DeleteUnionists badly wanted and still want Scots to be convinced Trident can't be moved, as some Scots wouldn't want the UK to be deprived of its deterrent and would vote NO to prevent that happening. Same as CND who want unilateral disarmament instead.
But the reality is it can be moved, and quite quickly after being given 12 years notice of the alarming possibility of our Independence. In fact, for those who watch these things, there's been a lot of infrastructure improvements at Devonport for instance, and precious few at Faslane - partly because of the delay to Dreadnought, originally planned for 2028 or so and now into the 30s.
Anyway, here's a sample of the way these "independent Naval Experts" talk in the article you linked:
"It is clear an independent Scotland would be a disaster for UK defence and the Royal Navy in particular."
THAT was the conclusion which the article was written for. It's not at all true, by the way. Devonport for Faslane with the possible help of Falmouth for Coulport (though I did identify a better site long ago, available with a fairly cheap CPO).
Malcolm Chalmers is Deputy Director General of RUSI - with a reputation to keep, and a deep interest in doing his best for the armed forces and security of the UK. A total Unionist, but an honest one.
https://rusi.org/people/chalmers
next
Lol.
DeleteThe article I linked to went through, at some length, various alternative sites and the problems associated with them.
Their arguments are both reasonable and rational and every bit as competent as your named researcher whose views - I reiterate - do not represent RUSI.
Whether YOU accept their conclusions or not, is of absolutely NO Interest to me, pal.
If anyone wants to get angry about this, by the way, here's from a report from 2012, with this by Chalmers before he changed his mind somewhat (possibly after Francis Tusa gave his opinions about how easy it could be):
Deletehttps://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmscotaf/676/67607.htm
" You could not put the Coulport facility in Devonport because there simply is not the room given the safety margins, which would be higher now than they were in the 1960s.[55]
33. Coulport is not just a storage site, but also possesses the huge floating dock where the warheads are placed inside the missiles, three kilometres from Garelochhead on one side and Ardentinny on the other.[56] Any new warhead storage facility would need to provide safety assurances on a similar scale in relation to loading and offloading warheads from the missiles in the submarines.[57] To do so, such a site would preferably be near the submarine base and on the coast, as Professor Walker said:
In my view, the warhead storage is not the crucial issue; the crucial question is how you create a facility where you can marry the warhead and missile, load it on to the submarine and also remove it from the submarine, if you need to, and bring it back on shore. That is a very delicate and dangerous operation, so it is all to do with safety calculations. [...] You don't want to do anything like this near built-up areas, tourist sites or whatever."
Nice eh, innit! "You don't want to do anything like this near built-up areas, tourist sites or whatever.". Scotland you don't matter!
David Francis your use of the word "pal" marks you out as a real prick.
Delete" It is clear an independent Scotland would be a disaster for UK defence ....." It is clear that the UK wouldnae exist. Sums up the colonials they cannae even recognise the true reality.
DeleteYes. "Dave" or "David"'s article from 2016 lists a lot of places in Scotland needed for the Great British defence, and there's some articles and even a Scottish Affairs witness said that they should all be made sovereign territory of the UK - which would actually be the rUK or whatever they wanted to call it.
DeleteAnyone who supports that in "these islands" (an expression I've never heard an Indy suporter use), is either a staunch Unionist, or an unwitting tool of Unionists. That would indeed be the very definition of colonialism - like Chagos.
I guess such people would want to clear out the people of Tain for instance, as that's near a test bomb run site. Or people along the Clyde like me, to keep the seaways clear. And bye bye Helensburgh, Arrochar and many places like that. Sovereign rUK territory!
Fuck off.
Stamping yer wee feet is typical of an Anon Twat like you, sonny.
DeleteAnd you can take your absurd suggestion that I am either a unionist, or influenced by their subservient mindset and shove it into the dark crack where yer heid normally resides.
On a wider issue, James Kelly, is it not well overdue on here that ONLY posters who use their REAL NAMES are allowed to contribute and that Anon Cowards are banned from doing so?
David Francis. I agree only real names like yours should be used.
DeleteThought you died, pal?
DeleteDavid Francis - you are confusing me with the American guy. All the best the Scottish Elvis.
DeleteHave argued for ages that posters be required to identify themselves in some way. Of course, you can't tell if a real name is being used (obviously in my case) but it would clear up the arguments in the comments section. I don't understand why James is reluctant to do so but presumably it would take up too much of his time.
DeleteDavie, if I've told you once I've told you a million times. Get back to your homework or they'll never let you into Eton. And never mind your tantrums or your mama will deal with you when she gets back from number 10.
DeleteOwen, if I sing Burning Love for for you will that be sufficient evidence?
DeleteElvis, I'm not asking for evidence of anything, just a consistent username so that I can distinguish one poster from another. Apart from that, you can call yourself the Emperor of the Universe if you like as long as you stick with it.😁
DeleteSorry Owen, my mistake, good idea. I thought you were proposing the same silly suggestion as David Francis.
DeleteIndeed, some did vote to leave. Some others, like me, voted to remain in an imperfect EU but now that we're out it seems sensible to explore all the options.
ReplyDeleteI believe it would be a better fit for Scotland to be in a smaller alliance of natural resource rich nations, such as EFTA, better able to exploit our unique trading position. We'd be the big fish in the pond in GDP terms so we should tread carefully if we choose to apply for membership.
As I said, the above poll doesn't really cater for people like me. It's either none of the above or lump me in with the Yes + leave group, many of whom are resolutely against any future iScotland joining any European trade alliance at all.
Only by voting SNP can a better Scotland be brought about.
ReplyDeleteLOL
DeleteIs it Open Doors Day at the asylum?😁
DeleteThe SNP is the best party in Scotland.
ReplyDeleteHideous post.
DeleteThe 8.03 poster is correct.
DeleteDr Jim @ 1.52
DeleteDr Dim @ 2:57
DeleteI'm not that discouraged by it tbh. We're miles from indy being a hot topic and it's still well in touching distance and the first choice from a multi panel decision.
ReplyDeleteIf this is the nadir, what will the next shift be like when the SNP is the alternative to Labour in say 2030s?
To the relentless Hooded Claw-style "I'm going to destroy your credibility, Kelly, if it's the last thing I do", there are I'm afraid just two *tiny snags* with your latest line of attack -
ReplyDelete1) I quite plainly did notice the Survation poll had a preferential format, as you can helpfully see from the fact that the blogpost uses the words " these are the top preferences of voters". The lower preferences of respondents are of only very limited interest, hence why I only mentioned that point in passing.
2) You claim that respondents were given two preferences in the poll, whereas in fact they were given five. In a bombshell twist, then, you seem to have destroyed your own credibility rather than mine.
Ooops!!!
I can't understand why these particular options were chosen. Surely, there could have been an option for a Scottish Parliament in a UK Confederation, as was talked about some years ago in the Labour party?
DeleteThat would require England to be even remotely interested in such a thing. Of course they are not interested as it weakens their current heavily advantaged position.
DeleteAs with all things the Brit nats have to be forced into a corner be it for Scotland, Ireland and Wales. They are really English colonialists.
DeleteSo only the four furious ranting replies for me to delete, Hooded Claw? Disappointing, I was expecting sixteen.
DeleteNever let anyone say you're nursing an obsession.
Getting an independence referendum is easy, you just have to make Westminster believe support is at 28% like last time and they'll be forcing a referendum on us
ReplyDeleteThe way the questions/options were worded surely render this pretty much worthless? Perhaps it should be dismissed as such.
ReplyDeleteIn yes/no type polls Yes is in a slight majority. And that is before any campaigning starts. The problem is of course having a date and an event to campaign towards. SNP remain silent on this. And no other party can get us a date and an event. Depressing.
What hideous about it? Haha
DeleteGo and touch grass mate
Anon at 11.52. Care to explain? And anon at 12.02. No I’m not.
DeleteNats are very selective in the polls they look at.
DeleteYeh the British nats just tell the companies what questions to ask
Delete@1:05,
DeleteLOL, I think you’re one of many living in denial.
No denial. Realist. The Brit nats are always interfering.
DeleteThe International Criminal Court have issued arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant for alleged war crimes. These are the people Sunak and Starmer support. Blood on your hands of children if you voted Labour or Tory. The UK facilitating genocide and ethnic cleansing/land grab by Israel. Shameful but Britnats do not do shame.
ReplyDeleteChange the record IFS.
DeleteThe resident House Jock KC at 12.35pm demonstrates once again that Britnats have no shame. Starmer stated it was was ok for Israel to cut off any food, water and fuel to Gaza. The UK, a shithole of a country, supporting Israel carrying out war crimes.
DeleteAnon at 12.35 You are Sir Keir Starmer and I claim my fiver
DeleteStarmer's shafting the farmers.
DeleteWith the handover of Glen Sannox, seven years to the day since her launch to great fanfare by Nicola Sturgeon, there is finally a wee bit of light at the end of the tunnel in the Scottish ferry scandal.
ReplyDeleteIt'll be a brave soul who makes a booking for its maiden voyage.
DeleteNicola Sturgeon isn’t a boatbuilder and neither are you or I’m sure you would have finished it in several weeks although the bulkheads would have to been enlarged to take your ego.
ReplyDeleteI shall never vote for Sturgeon.
DeleteShe won’t vote for you either I’m sure. You sit on the sidelines carping.
DeleteDumbo anon at 3.24pm
DeleteSturgeon is sitting on the sidelines as well.
Sitting on the sidelines? You mean she's actually turned up at Holyrood for once?
Deleteyou obviously rate her hence the constant attacks by the mysoginists
DeletePlease learn to spell. If you're too thick to spell misogynist, stop using it and trying to pass it off as a typo like the other day. The odd capital letter at the start of a sentence wouldn't go amiss either. Or is it just a feature of all Nicola admirers that they're semi literate?
DeleteWhen can I get a high speed train from the north? I believe we have paid for this.
ReplyDeletePlaytime's over, kid.
DeleteDr Jim @ 1.49
DeleteDr Dim @ 2:53
DeleteArrest warrant issued for Netanyahu over Israel’s war in Gaza by International Criminal Court
ReplyDeleteThat'll keep the pensioners of Easterhouse warm this winter will it?
DeleteAnon at 3.19pm that is a really dumb comment.
DeleteThe National - the self styled newspaper which supports Scottish independence is predictably pleasuring itself with Netanyahu articles right now. Also, right now Scottish pensioners can't afford to put the heating on during the coldest spell of the winter so far. The National should be putting the spotlight right now on the SG to reinstate the WFM which would help the pensioners and be a good news story for the SNP, helping with 'good governance' remit towards promoting independence.
DeleteSo no, it's not a really dumb comment from anon at 3.19. What is dumb is deflecting away from a situation our elected representatives can do something about with an issue they have no control over whatsoever.
That's WFP not WFM, apologies.
DeleteAnon at 3.39. You haven’t really mastered intelligent deflection have you? Silly child.
DeleteAnon at 3.45. You really haven't mastered basic comprehension have you? Ya rocket.
DeleteNow that the ICC has issued Arrest Warrants for Genocidal Fascist Zionist Zealots Netanyahu and Gallant - what will Zionist-Funded Genocide-Denying Starmer, Lammy and Labour say and do???
ReplyDeleteIssue a benign press release and go back to having lunch
ReplyDeleteThey would finish lunch first.
DeleteNetanyahu and Gallant will get a fair trial if they turn up in The Hague either voluntarily or arrested. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians taken hostage over the decades by the IDF have either had no trial at all or an unfair military trial.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing stopping Swinney reinstating the UWFP. There was nothing stopping Swinney and his pal Sturgeon going for Indyref2 in past years. Independence is the real and permanent solution to Scottish pensioners freezing in a resource rich nation. That's where the blame lies. Expressing your disgust at the UK supporting the Israeli genocide is not a deflection it highlights the type of state the UK is.
Diva Francis @ 3:59
DeleteYet another wee Anon Wanker.
DeleteTime to weed them out, James.
I couldn’t agree more David.
Deletetime to put your money where your mouth is david
Deletehttps://www.gofundme.com/f/scot-goes-pop-fundraiser-2024
You can start with 'Elvis' and 'Monica', James.
DeleteFalse names - = Anonymous.
Get upstairs right now David or there be no toasted macarooneys for you.
Delete6 shit posts under my original post. Take your obsession somewhere else David Francis. Is that your real name - I honestly don't care.
DeleteWhy should the S G compensate for the actions of Westminster? The people in Scotland voted in the G E for unionist parties and this is a direct consequence. S G should be flagging up this point time and again and in the interim putting in place a system to inform and help those who will be affected by the cut in universal WFA. They are doing the second of those things already. Make the unionists own the cut in WFA.
DeleteFor anyone who’s not yet worked it out, there’s a very strong possibility that Angus Robertson works for the other side, and always has. This kind of muddying the waters only adds to me being convinced of this. There is no chance in hell of the UK ever giving Scotland meaningful power within the Union. It’s a red herring!
ReplyDeleteI won’t even start regards his choice of spouse
Parcel of Rogues candidates the pair of them
A dodgy character with an even dodgier wife.
DeleteLeave Donald Trump alone!
DeleteQuite obvious by the amount of unionist trolls on here that Independence is far from a defeated cause.
ReplyDeleteLet’s hope for something new and dynamic to hoover up list votes for independence next year
It's predicted to drop to -5C tonight across the Central belt. Meanwhile, the top seven stories on The National website are about Netanyahu.
ReplyDeleteSo? Its good you can count to 7 - biblical almost.
ReplyDeleteIt's as if anon at 4.12 cares about pensioners!
Delete