Postal votes are apparently dropping, so I just want to take this opportunity to reiterate that if you're an independence supporter, spoiling your ballot or voting for a unionist party would be a monumentally foolish thing to do. Please vote, and please vote for a pro-independence party. If the polls are right (and they're not always right, but they're the only guide we have), the election is going to be very close in Scotland between Labour and the SNP. With the right result, we could keep the flame of independence burning bright. But the wrong result would be a generational 1979-style setback that could remove independence from the agenda for the foreseeable future.
We need the SNP to retain as many seats as possible. Ideally we need them to beat Labour in the popular vote, and if they don't, we need them to get as close to Labour as possible. And if you don't want to vote SNP, remember Alba are an option in one-third of constituencies. But if Alba aren't standing in your seat, and if you don't want to vote Green either, I urge you to vote SNP anyway.
There is no way of "repurposing your ballot for independence" by spoiling it, in spite of what a certain gentleman would have you believe. A spoilt ballot is a spoilt ballot. It will be recorded as a spoilt ballot and as absolutely nothing else. The only way to purpose a vote for independence is to vote for a pro-independence party.
Believe me, you'll miss that pro-independence majority when it's gone.
* * *
I've previewed the constituency races in Glasgow East and Glasgow North for The National - you can read the articles HERE and HERE.
My postal ballot arrived today. I'm still not certain whether I'll vote, 70% likelihood that I will. If I do it will be for the SNP.
ReplyDeleteI quite liked last night's QT format as it focused on one party for 30min and exposed them for longer and you get to see a bit more of who theybare as a leader and as a person and how they handle questions from the public.
What I realised watching all four of them was that they were all able to identify the problems the UK and Scotland faces (even Sunak). They all also have an idea or vision for where they want to get the country to (again, even Sunak). What none of them really has is a reasonable plan to get us from one state to the other. They all sounded like they were making it up or reading from a script that they'd been coached on beforehand.
Undoubtedly John Swinney did the best, but then he's almost completely unknown to an English audience and maybe got an easier ride. The difficulty is that I don't belive that John Swinney has a plan to get us to independence, just more of the same micawberism or large quantities of hopium and hand wringing.
If the SNP don't have a majority or at very least a competitive number of MPs the media narrative will be Independence is over. Its not supported etc.
ReplyDeleteThen it really doesn't matter if there is s leader with a water tight plan.
As James says this is the only way to keep the flame of Independence burning in the next two weeks.
After that by all means hammer the SNP, Greens and Alba on lack of action.
Aye you are richt, vote SNP the noo
Delete. Afterwards maybe Alba?
Alba will be deid at this rate.
DeleteBut who do they fold into? The ISP?
The caveat I have is their position on women’s rights as long as they haven’t been a total TRA then SNP is a pro-Indy option
ReplyDeleteThe worry I have is Labour will use the GE as a platform to launch their Holyrood campaign. And it will give them a big advantage. If there is a unionist Holyrood in 2026 independence is sunk
But I think Swinney has to go before 2026 and a good SNP performance might keep his job so that is also a worry
Denise. General Election 2010 SNP won 6 seats. Holyrood 2011, SNP won an absolute majority. I doubt if Labour will be advantaged for Holyrood 2 years after a GE victory. I suspect their performance will not have impressed Scottish voters by 2026-and they won’t be able to say, unlike for Westminster, that the SNP cannot form a government, or people must vote SNP to keep the Tories out
DeleteAbsolutely agree wi James here vote fae SNP or , if ye cannae dae that , any indy party
ReplyDelete. There's a gey lot o britnats on here that are disingenuous and want us tae think that an SNP defeat will magically forward the cause o indy- it willnae dae that.. Hooever , when the time comes a vote fae Alba micht increase the pressure on the SNP ( aye , I ken they're no aa' as keen as we'd like). Vote on the regional list 2026. . Fa Kens.
Vote SNP the noo.
Saor Alba!
Been there. Done that. Already have the shame and guilt to prove it.
DeleteStill no Indy. Not even a clear desire for it among the lazy London lot of them.
"Vote fae," "gey lot o britnats," "vote SNP the noo" where are you from?
DeleteThe Sunday Post by the sound of it😉
DeleteFor those with postal votes, there is no rush.
ReplyDelete1). If you intend spoiling your ballot, or "repurposing it", please wait in case you change your mind a few days before 4th July. Same goes of course if you're thinking of ripping it up!
2). Whatever the merits of "repurposing your ballot", that is better than just abstaining. Nobody will notice if turnout is 1% less than normal. It will be noticed if 3 times as any ballots are spoilt as normal, and a relatively small number would be needed to be noticed. And don't just draw rude pictures on it to spoilt it, at least write "Independence" or "#EndTheUnion" on it.
I was going to spoil my postal ballot with "Independence" diagonally across it. Now it's about 75% I'll actually vote for a party, and it would be SNP if I do. Pass the anti-bacterial.
Why the (potential) change in your decision?
DeleteThe actual manifesto with page 1 (3 of the pdf) saying just "VOTE SNP FOR SCOTLAND TO BECOME AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY", and the little bit somewhat later that says:
Delete"Demand the permanent transfer of legal power to the Scottish Parliament to determine how Scotland is governed, including the transfer of power to enable it to legislate for a referendum"
A demand will do little in itself, a Bill by the SNP either as 3rd party or a 10 minute Bill would be voted down by a pack of laughing smelly skunk-like hyenas, but it would add to the growing evidence that Scotland is being denied self-determination internally by the UK and therefore needs to seek it externally. A hard and thorny path, if the SNP has courage ...
It will help if in the remaining few days the SNP proves that it does have guts, not gaiters, and it will help if they get pinned down rather than be allowed to escape with waffle.
But those waffles are so tasty!
DeleteBURRRRRRP
"Whatever the merits of "repurposing your ballot", that is better than just abstaining"
DeleteNo it is not. IT IS ABSOLUTELY BLOODY IDENTICAL TO ABSTAINING. If you are thinking of doing it, here is the two-step way forward:
Step 1: Change your mind.
Step 2: That's it.
A whole lot more of us will be abstaining than going out to vote and scrawling words across the ballot. The louder message is the slump in turnout than the eccentric with the busy pencil hogging the booth.
DeleteSpoilt ballot paper is hownits recorded and read out by the Returning Officer-not 5 independe now, 2 KTF or whatever. Empty gesture unless you vote specifically for a party,that could win a seat. The tories and labour in particular want a low turnout and spoiled papers.
ReplyDeleteThe agents and candidates themselves can inspect all spoilt ballots, in case an actual vote can be salvaged. Some will talk!
DeleteYou're also talking about a potential 2, 3 or 4 hour delay to the result being called, if there's enough of them - maybe 1,000 instead of the average 150 or so per constituency. Specially for counting centres like Glasgow where there's multiple constituencies.
I'm not saying it's good by the way to spoil the ballot. But it's way better than just abstaining.
DeleteNo it's not you clown
DeleteHe’s not a clown, but it is worse than abstaining. You turned out. God save the status quo!
Delete“With a respectable turnout of X% north of the border, it’s demonstrably clear that talk of independence minded Scots boycotting the election were greatly overblown. Sir Keir’s respectable seat haul in that windswept land is as sure a vote for the union as our win in 2014, I think it’s fair to say. A profound relief for all of us.”
DeleteBBC, election night. Impartially British to the last.
Nope.
Delete"Statistics relating to spoilt ballots (votes cast but which cannot be included in the count of votes) have been routinely collated for general elections since 1964. In 2019, there were 117,101 spoilt ballots."
That was an average of 180 per constituency, 0.36% of all ballots. Imagine if in Scotland it was an average of 900 per constituency - 1.8% of all ballots, or even more, perhaps 1200 per constituency, 2.4% of all ballots.
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7529/CBP-7529.pdf
Hyperbole is great; facts and figures are even greater.
Nope.
Delete"Statistics relating to spoilt ballots (votes cast but which cannot be included in the count of votes) have been routinely collated for general elections since 1964. In 2019, there were 117,101 spoilt ballots."
That was an average of 180 per constituency, 0.36% of all ballots. Imagine if in Scotland it was an average of 900 per constituency - 1.8% of all ballots, or even more, perhaps 1200 per constituency, 2.4% of all ballots.
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7529/CBP-7529.pdf
Hyperbole is great; facts and figures are even greater.
Sorry, missed out closing italic in first attempt.
yesindyref2, that's all very interesting, but I would delicately suggest that you have been online too long, and that your notions of the impact of spoiling your ballot in the real world are vastly overstated as a result.
DeleteYou may well feel, from the reactions you may get from IndependenceNow345 and AlbaForever79 on Twitter that your spoiled ballot has struck a mortal blow at the heart of the Union.
But in truth, it will be ignored. Yes, the Presiding Officer reads out the number of rejected ballot papers. But I rather suspect your interest in politics here is distorting the fact that most people don't care.
I mean this in the most gentle way possible, but you have lost all real-world perspective if you imagine that a 90 minute delay in counting the Cumbernauld ballots due to an uptick in spoiled ballots will precipitate any sort of response. Or that more people than usual spoiling their ballots in East Kilbride will provoke a constitutional crisis.
You're right that it will be noticed if many more ballots than usual are spoiled. It will be referenced in the Returning Officer's remarks, and never spoken of again.
It is an election geek's curiosity. But don't mistake an election geek's curiosity for tangible results.
Yesindyref2. You come over as delusional. A spoilt ballot paper is a spoilt ballot paper. And do you really not know how the BBC and the MSM operate in Scotland?
DeleteBeen to a lot of counts. Once the result is called the rest is forgotten. Seen the smiley face, the snp logo and more. It does not count. It is a waste.
ReplyDeleteWasted ballots don’t even count as reduced turnout. I’ve seen them counted in person. Only interest the parties have is in nabbing another vote for two in a really close contest. After that: the trash.
DeleteWorst of all: you still voted. Still a healthy turnout in the colony for a British election.
I’m abstaining. Can’t see an argument to draw me to the polls on voting day. Especially for the sickly super trans-jihad local SNP.
An SNP vote is a vote for Scotland against Westminster rule
DeleteAn SNP MP looks up from their plate, gravy dripping from their jowls, wondering who let you into their plush London canteen.
Delete"After that: the trash"
DeleteIn Scotland and probably the rest of the UK, votes in any election or referendum are locked up and kept for a year in case of any legal challenge. Perhaps it's different in the USA.
And they are counted, and the number of them is reported by the ERO when he or she announces the result.
Off the top of your head: name the seat in Scotland with the highest spoilt ballot count in 2019.
DeleteI’ll wait.
Valid votes + spoiled ballots = turnout. The higher the turnout the more legitimate this sham of an election.
Probably Glasgow Shettleston at 12.09% in 2007, compared to an average of 4.06% in Scotland.
DeleteA bit of simple maths. If 1200 abstensions from Indy supporters reduce the turnout from 66% to 64% in an average constituency, it's hardly noticeable frankly.
If, however, the same number of Indy supporters spoil their ballots, it increases the spoilt ballots from say 0.36% to 3.36% of all ballots - nearly 10 times as many as normal.
Ooops sorry, I shouted.
2007 was *the* spoilt ballot election thanks to the combined constituency + regional ballot on a single piece of paper *and* the brand new STV local elections being run on the same day. What a bùrach! No wonder many folk put numbers on both or just one X for Holyrood.
DeleteI’d be astonished if we see that level of spoiling again.
So would the media - and the Electoral Commission. It would be investigated.
Deleteyesindyref2, I was more diplomatic with you earlier in this comment section, but I see you're still here pumping out this tripe about spoiled ballots and their political implications being reported as seismic political events.
DeleteLet me now be less diplomatic. I have never heard such online-focussed, echo-chambered, innumerable GUFF in all my life.
You may well choose to live in this absurdist fantasy-land wherein an uptick in spoiled ballots results in headline news, where investigators are despatched and the end of the Union is near at hand.
Those of us who live in the real world recognise that turnout and spoiled ballots are the niche subject of psephologist's debates. They are minor curiosities. And no matter how much you wish that 3% of spoiled ballots would put Jackie Bird on the scene to investigate on behalf of the people of Scotland, our media would accept it as legitimate and you'd be left screaming about it in the annals of a blog.
A few more spoiled ballots than usual is not the recipe for Unionist collapse that you've indulged yourself it is. If you doubt that, step outside, speak to an ordinary voter, and ask them if an uptick in spoiled ballots would precipitate the constitutional crisis you imagine it would.
I guarantee they attempt to abscond from your company at the earliest opportunity.
5:36, why so personal, and, taking a leaf here, what are you doing writing a wall of shite like that at FIVE on a Friday night? Been absconded perchance?
DeleteI actually agree with your point about spoiled ballots, but making it so ad hominem weakens the argument.
DeleteToo many ad hominem attacks on this site, it's the curse of allowing so much anonymity (and, yes, I am aware of the irony and would be happy to be banned along with all the other anons).
DeleteAnonymous at 5.36 am
DeleteYour hyperbole is very interesting, but a bit of googling would have been better. The 2007 election generated a lot of publicity and investigations by the Electoral Commission prompted by the very media outcry you deny is possible:
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/DDenverScottishrejectedballotpapersreportFINAL_27847-20492__S__.pdf
In that particular case it was decided it was the design of the ballot sheets caused confusion. In 2019 in England and Wales it was the number of spoilt ballots for a protest about Brexit handling by both Tories and Labour.
Abstaining is a waste of a vote. Spoiling a ballot sheet can cause a lot of publicity and an investigation - if there's enough of them like 100,000 all over Scotland.
A valid argument is that this is very unlikely, as the campaign to spoil the ballot sheet exists only on the fringes of Indy.
Absolutely spot on 9:42 and 10:31. The SNP’s failings aren’t on us voters. They must face the consequences of their own action over all these wasted years. Give us hee haw? Well, here’s our verdict in the one and only way we can express it.
ReplyDeleteLabour’s supermajority—and their disgusting troughers—will be transient. Indy stays alive and very well in the hearts of half of Scots. We won’t forget just because BBC Shortbread told us to. Indeed, we never came to a Yes generation because of anything anyone in London ever said.
Well said anon at 11.12pm. Too much weight is given to what the English media have to say about Scotland and its right to self determination. They will ALWAYS put us down because they believe they own us. 50% want rid of the colonisers (England) despite the English media brainwashing Scots for centuries and a bit of ethnic cleansing to boot.
DeleteIs Craig Murray no longer a candidate with Galloway vanity party? Is he now forgiven by ALBA. Could they run a ménage?
ReplyDeleteWondered what you were on about. Went and checked. Well well!
Deletehttps://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2024/06/the-leaving-of-blackburn/
I think it’s absolutely right it local, Muslim candidate runs.
Quite what a white man from an Edinburgh mansion hundreds of miles away is doing representing Gaza in Blackburn of all places completely defeats me. Always did.
Yet he is radiant in his serenity.
DeleteThe people of Blackburn: who was that posh guy anyway?
DeleteSorry mate, wrong struggle. Let Blackburn represent itself.
I'm very disappointed in Craig. He should have insisted on a game of rock, paper, scissors and made it the best of five. A coin toss is a total anti-climax.
DeleteThis hopefully gives the true picture of Craig’s susceptibility and his antics. He is gullible (I am being diplomatic) and has been shamefully manipulated by some who claim to support Indy but in reality are unionist.
DeleteLike the SNP since indyref? 😉
DeleteLike yourself?
DeleteMurray sounds like he got beaten by the Punjabi mafia before he even put up a fight. He got ousted from a GE by Blackburn & Derwen Council! He looks like a waste of space.
DeleteAnon at 9.09 and 9.18. Grow up.
DeleteThere’s your Plan A dead on the floor, Swinney:
ReplyDeleteKEIR Starmer has bluntly refused to participate in negotiations for another Scottish independence referendum.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24403235.keir-starmer-gives-take-independence-talks-snp-win-majority/
Plead for indyref2 and get laughed at by the Brits. They have a mandate too. Ten times bigger than all of Scotland’s.
The route to independence won’t be paved by honourable Englishmen.
DeleteCan we have your plan A please?
DeleteDe facto.
DeleteThe route to Scotland becoming England's colony was mapped out by dishonourable Englishmen like the spy Daniel Defoe. England is not Scotland's friend or family. Never has been.
DeleteAs an independence supporter, I still see no reason to vote SNP. A vote for the current SNP is an endorsement of a corrupt leadership who have zero interest in achieving statehood for Scotland.
ReplyDeleteThey’ll lead us to Indy, all right. Just once they’re drawing their Westminster pension. And once their chosen successor is too. Let the weans have a ride on the gravy train. Can’t spoil it for them. Stop being so impatient and ungrateful for their decades of self service!
DeleteWon’t someone PLEASE think of the next generation of troughers! Spads are in it for their future, too.
DeleteI agree. The only way to show that we are serious about independence is by ensuring that Keir Starmer is installed in Number 10.
DeleteSwinney is pathetic about independence. Only by electing a Starmer-led government, relishing in British nationalism, will Scots show that they mean business about independence.
As Wings so wisely advises, only through a full-throated embrace of Unionism can independence be gained.
If you aren't playing in a flute band, frankly, you aren't doing enough for the independence cause.
Well said anon at 6.05. Worryingly there are some who will be taking your post seriously, and continue pushing the line that amounts to supporting unionism.
DeleteAnd don’t dare tell them to accept responsibility when a unionist labour Govt further dismantles devolution and damages the possibility of Indy even further. That’s not their fault apparently. It’s everyone else’s.
DeleteNo it's not everyone else's fault, it's the SNP's fault for abandoning independence as it's primary objective.
DeleteWe're getting a unionist government anyway. You may not have noticed but that's all we ever have had thanks to English votes. If only we had a party who would get us out of this union but alas we are stuck with the devolutionists of the SNP.
Absolutely, 7:16
DeleteWhen Swinney begs Starmer for indyref2, and the PM says no as he just promised he will, how the f does that spare us from anything.
The union is a prison. The PM has total power. Play by their rules and you will always lose. Get creative, FFS. We did it in 2011 and we can do it again if our leader is determined. But he’s not. He’s just another comfy devolutionist.
Anon at 7.16. Truth hurts doesn’t it. Accept responsibility.
DeleteWhat a facile remark! Believe me far from denying responsibility, I will be proud of any small part my vote plays in ridding the independence movement of the parasitic SNP. Don't judge others by your own shallow standards.
DeletePersonal abuse as you have no actual response. Grow up, take responsibility and stop blaming everyone else. As for the part you are playing in ridding Indy of the SNP, tell us all how that is going?
DeleteAre you illiterate or just plain thick? I've just written that I'm proud to take responsibility for what I do with my vote. As for personal abuse, that seems to be your speciality, a substitute for a lack of brainpower no doubt.
DeleteSo tell us how it’s going instead of personal abuse, especially when ironically what you have said actually applies to you. Your delusional beliefs are not taking responsibility. Too nuanced for you I know but try your best. And give me an example of personal abuse by me. And to avoid misunderstanding, me flagging up your inadequacies and nonsense is not personal abuse. It’s comment. Silly billy.
DeleteAnon at. 9.03pm says:- " give me an example of personal abuse by me". Anon that is a silly billy comment. How does anyone identify your comments on SGP as you hide in the anonymous crowd. Obviously me flagging up the inadequacies in your post is not personal abuse. It's just comment. No hard feelings then ya numpty.
DeleteAnon 9:03 You're deranged rantings are only evidence that you are a complete cretin.
DeleteAll the critiques of the SNP may be valid. But. I cant work out who an independence supporter would vote for if not SNP. Green, Alba?, but its surely only going to give Labour back the Westminster majority they crave, and will seek to damage the Scottish Parliament and stop any independence progress. I'm sure I'm not wrong.
ReplyDeleteSorry to break it to you, but England already decided. We are getting a Labour majority whether we like it or not. Just like we kept on getting Tories. Nothing we can do about it, not while playing by their rules.
DeleteThat’s why inaction on independence is so self-defeating. Yet here we are again.
ALBA supporters are the most enthusiastic when it comes to independence but let's be honest, the ALBA party is polling very poorly for the election and are not going to win any seats yet their supporters continually want the SNP to perform badly. Let's be clear, a bad performance for the SNP damages every independence supporters cause.
ReplyDeleteNo it doesn't. It could provide the SNP with the kick up the backside it needs to refocus on independence and stop wasting time on all the woke nonsense that Sturgeon introduced.
DeleteCorrect 8:36
DeleteI belong to no party. And I’m certainly not advancing any of them by abstaining in this election!
This is about so much more than petty party politics. This is about Scotland, independence, and sending the SNP the message the only way I can. No more lies. Get back to Independence.
@8:36, the SNP does indeed need a kick up the backside and this is our chance to do just that.
DeleteHopefully they get the message and they start really focusing on independence before the Holyrood election, which will be the big one .
In this U.K. election Scotland gets what England decides because Scotland is England's colony.
ReplyDeleteJust how many Prime Ministers telling the SNP to pissof with their sec 30 request will it take for some people to wake up. Starmer has already made it clear he will be the FIFTH. But dimwits cling on to people like Swinney prattling on about Westminster eventually caving in to Scottish democratic pressure. The same guff Sturgeon and Blackford spouted for years. There is no real democracy for Scotland. There never has been and today is no different. There is no pressure on Westminster. Colonies are controlled by their colonisers and only get the rights allowed by the coloniser (England).
If you don't identify the problem clearly then your chance of finding a solution that works is very much reduced.
Swinney is a gradualist - a devolutionalist - always has been. The backing away from a de facto referendum should tell anyone what the SNP have become under the leadership of Sturgeon/Yousaf/Swinney.
As anon at 8.54am said - " the union is a prison" and colonies are held prisoner by the coloniser. A UK court which has only been in existence for a few decades tells us we have no right to self determination - colonial masters putting us in our place. SNP reply by saying they respect the decision. SNP = House Jocks.
How many times will the SNP being told to pissof with their sec 30 request by Westminster PMs will it take for YOU to say enough is enough - 10? 15? - sadly some numpties will never wake up and that is why we are still a colony.
Personal abuse? Tick. Denial of reality? Tick. Hatred of SNP/Sturgeon? Tick. Welcome back IFS.
DeleteNo idea which troll you are anon at 10.16 am or if you are the same one posting multiple times but your one line trolling isnae very good.
Delete' Personal' abuse - whit to someone anonymous - get a grip ya anonymous numpty
Denial of reality - ? - an assertion backed up with nothing.
Welcome back - I posted yesterday ya numpty troll.
Snide, 10:16.
DeleteCare to explain to us how exactly Scotland is a free nation and not just England’s nuclear dump and energy donor of a colony?
Nothing worthwhile to say? Tick. Abuse of an individual poster? Tick.
DeleteBlind devotion to Lady Hee Haw? Tick.
Pointless contribution anon.
That’s your answer why we’re not a colony?
DeleteThanks for confirming my post. All boxes ticked again. Well done. The holiday has done you a power of good. Maybe take a longer one and spend more time reading WOS and Mail.
DeleteThe indications are that a lot of people are considering not voting. Many Tories in England are scunnered. The left in England are scunnered. Independence supporters in Scotland are scunnered. Unionists in NI are scunnered.
ReplyDeleteStarmer could win a huge majority on a very modest share of the total electorate. Will he be circumspect? Will he say a lot of independence voters stayed at home to teach the SNP a lesson? Or is he arrogant enough to say I have a mighty mandate. Independence is dead and I will ensure there are changes to secure the Union and make certain that parties like the SNP can never pose a threat again?
Refusing to participate is still a choice but if the ill intentioned use that disengagement to further their own ends then those that did not vote have to own that outcome because they did participate by abstaining.
Vote SNP, vote Alba, vote Green...just don't vote Unionist because if you vote Unionist they will claim your loyalty to the Union regardless of what you think.
Shrimp I agree 100% don't vote Unionist. So don't vote SNP or Greens because they are parasites on the independence movement promoting their own policies but using independence to get votes.
DeleteYour argument about Starmer is wrong. Starmer will do what he wants no matter how Scotland votes. The SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and did what exactly? Did they stop Cameron having his EU ref and taking us out of the EU - no.
To get me to vote SNP they would have to convince me that they are serious about independence, have a credible plan for achieving it and are doing something to root out the corruption in their own ranks. At the moment they are failing on all three and have less than two weeks to convince me otherwise.
ReplyDeleteFortunately, there is an Alba candidate here.
Even if you conclude the SNP are not "serious about independence", how would abstaining and letting in a unionist MP help? It. Makes. No. Sense.
DeleteAgreed. Sadly no Alba candidate in my constituency, so will be staying at home.
DeleteI agree 👍. Best to stay at home, not vote, then whine for a few years.
DeleteAnon at 9.48am - SNP are de facto a Unionist party - surprising people like you still do not seem to grasp the argument despite it being pointed out in many many posts.
DeleteSo I'll try and help you out - what's worse voting for a Unionist candidate or not voting. My answer is voting for a Unionist candidate is worse and the SNP are currently a de facto Unionist party. The SNP members have had the opportunity to change this but decided to stick with continuity devolution at a very slow pace. This makes the SNP a Unionist party supporting the British states control of Scotland.
@Gimply
DeleteThanks to the devolution-happy SNP, all that any free minded Scot can do is grumble. With them, we’re snookered. Ten years and zero action so far.
Anon at 10:27
DeleteBut as a unionist and pretend-independence-supporter you should be delighted some people are falling for your disillusioned act.
Oh aye, no true Yesser could be scunnered with 10 wasted years and counting. We’re on the verge of freedom sure enough. Just keep donating and voting for the soft unionist Scottish National Party and haud yer wheesht.
DeleteThe unionist trolls are in Bute House. Some of them are quite open about their lack of interest in independence, the very thing they were elected for.
DeleteSadly the media narrative won’t add the Alba votes to the SNP (and Greens) and say - oh look there’s an independence majority of the popular vote. If (or when) Labour win the majority of seats in Scotland it’s almost certainly going to be all over. Salmond and Sturgeon will be ancient history before independence is even a possibility again. It makes me so angry to see how the mandates of the last decade were wasted.
ReplyDeleteAye. To borrow Lesley Riddoch’s phrase: it’s a sore fecht.
DeleteI wouldn’t rule out Indy for a generation, though. Half of Scots, most of them younger Scots, still want it and answer so in all the polls. What we have lost is our leadership, not our cause. Remember that.
It's a sair fecht. Not Ms Riddoch's but a good Scots expression.
DeleteThanks. (Phone autocorrect barely plays well for English, let alone Scots.) I know it’s not hers, but fa kens anyone else who dishes the same out stock phrases any more regular!
DeleteThe reason to vote SNP is to not let the colonial masters in London spin it that the demand for independence is lessening
ReplyDelete.
2026 HR list is the time to hold the SNP to account.
A big Labour win in Scotland will only help Sarwar build a platform to win in HR and be FM. And independence will be off the agenda for as long as he's in power.
Hold your noses if you must but vote SNP for WM.
Who cares how the unionists and media will spin it. When have we ever let them influence us before?
DeleteThe only thing voting SNP gets us right now is well-paid bums safely returned to Westminster seats. That’s why the SNP cares. That’s what they’re addicted to. And it is the fundamental reason now that we are still British.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I wasn't convinced to vote SNP when this election was called, and to date, the SNP haven't done anything to shift my position.
ReplyDeleteTheir manifesto says the following:
***
At this election we are asking you to vote SNP for an independent Scotland. If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats, the Scottish Government will be empowered to begin immediate negotiations with the UK Government to give democratic effect to Scotland becoming an independent country.
It is through the power of democratic pressure that we will secure the right of people in Scotland to decide their future.
***
Who, hand on heart, seriously believes that "democratic pressure" will be successful this time when it hasn't been before?
For the 2017 General Election, the SNP said winning a majority of seats would give the party a "triple lock" of mandates to call a second referendum on independence and that the UK Government would find it "democratically unsustainable" to continue to oppose another referendum.
Sound familiar?
Then, at the 2019 General Election, independence was central to the election as Scotland had the choice between two futures: Brexit or putting Scotland's future into Scotland's hands, something Westminster would again be unable to ignore...
The literal definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome, but that's exactly what we're being asked here to do.
I don't want to be here again being asked to vote SNP in the 2029 and 2034 General Elections (presuming there are no early ones) to keep the independence dream alive.
I don't want to vote for the illusion of a pro-independence majority; I actually want a pro-independence majority, but that's not on offer in this election.
Just creating the illusion of independence support isn't why we've elected the SNP in multiple elections. We expected them to actually pursue it. Optics don't matter more to me than something actually being done.
I'm not inspired to vote for a party to just pretend that independence is being progressed; I actually want independence to be progressed, and maybe at this stage, the only way of doing that is to shock the SNP into action or rebuild from their demise.
The only thing that is clear is that if the SNP somehow manages to win this election, that gives them the green light to carry on with business as usual, the status quo is maintained, and nothing changes. How is that worth voting for?
You’ve seen the string around the carrot. Keep it to yourself!
DeleteI'm still intending to abstain, Scott. If anything I'm more convinced I won't vote now than when the campaign started. Swinney has performed well but the message is very clear - timid acceptance of Westminster rule will continue. I'm not voting for that. Let a Labour victory and five years of resultant Starmer ineptitude do the work for us in converting people to indy, is my view. Sure it's a bit of a gamble but against the certainty of SNP inaction it's worth a shot.
DeleteMy polling card sits on the kitchen shelf destined for our recycling bin at 10pm on July 4th unless something frankly unbelievable happens to lure me to the polling station.
In a moment of pure irony, I repurposed the polling card just this morning to usher a bumble bee to it's freedom oot the windae!
Couldn't agree more. A Starmer government at Westminster is likely to do more in for independence in 5 years than another gravy train full of SNP troughers.
DeleteStarmer is going to dismantle devolution, and put discussion of Indy out of the question, leaving only civil unrest as a way forward. Good plan.
DeleteBeen talking to him have you? Or just a febrile imagination?
DeleteIf you read his comments you would know that is what he fully intends to do. Keep up, silly billy.
DeleteSNP activists are very hard working, getting up before most people are up from under their covers.
ReplyDeleteSNP activists are passionate about SNP goals. Independence is an SNP goal. Therefore SNP activists are passionate about independence.
That same quality of argument got us section 30 for indyref2, right enough.
DeleteI see the headline on today's National going with Starmer saying you ain't getting a sec 30 or anything. What will Swinneys response be ?
ReplyDeleteNot one numpty posting on SGP will say how many refusals they will accept from a PM before they engage their brains and come to the conclusion - this approach isnae working. 5 PMs will have refused it - Johnston twice - but that isnae enough for a lot of numpties. So how many are you willing to accept? Or how long will you go along with this nonsense? Another 10 years? 20 years? You really think you support independence - do you? You ain't silent in accusing others of being unionists but you are silent now.
How many years? How many PMs? Go on HandandShrimp tell us.
Shrimp if you have no mind of your own why not ask Kavanagh for guidance/instructions.
IfS: If independence does not happen it will not be for any lack of hard work and careful strategy on the part of the SNP.
DeleteHard work in the HoC boozers, and careful strategy to delude the likes of you that surely *this election* they finally mean it.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThat's the million dollar question.
DeleteTo many it seems like their whole argument rests on that the basis that we should vote SNP for optics and to create the illusion that independence is going to be progressed.
I'm dumbfounded that they don't realise that isn't enough for many and that we don't want to waste another decade spouting baseless rhetoric and creating illusions when we could be spending it rebuilding as lets be honest the SNPs days are numbered regardless on how anyone on here votes.
Sturgeon in Dec 2019 UK GE punted - give us another mandate for Indyref2. On Jan 30th 2020 she gave her infamous surrender speech and capitulated to Westminster being in charge and said only the gold standard sec 30 was acceptable to her. There would be no " wildcat referendums" she said. To call asking the people of Scotland to exercise their right to self determination a wildcat referendum showed clearly she was under the control of Westminster - either voluntarily or reluctantly - it disnae matter. She is a charlatan who never said this before the 2019 election. She then punted the same con trick for the 2021 Holyrood election. Numpties assured us she would deliver Indyref2 in 2021 and then 2022 and then infamously 19/10/2023 and said anyone who called her out were unionists.
Delete5 years on numpties still go along with this SNP betrayal. Hang your head in shame numpties.
She will be commenting on the election for ITV alongside George Osborne and Ed Balls
DeleteAnon at 1.14pm - three Britnats togther. Osborne who imposed austerity on Scotland, Balls who did nothing for Scotland and Sturgeon Scotland's greatest Betrayer since 1707. No doubt she will get a selfie with her Britnat pals.
DeleteSturgeon stalker
DeleteSame troll at 5.15pm.
DeleteThere is little point voting SNP at the GE. Ok they’re making noises about independence in the run up to the election, but this is just an attempt to buy votes.
ReplyDeleteThey certainly won’t be getting my vote.
Short term pain for, hopefully, long term gain is the way I’m looking at it personally.
Thank you Keir Starmer.
DeleteIt's strange.
ReplyDeleteYes Supporters: Please progress independence.
SNP: Naw.
Yes Supporters: Okay I'll vote for you anyway.
Alba: Let's work together with 'Scotland United'.
SNP: Naw.
Some Alba Members: Okay I'll vote for you anyway.
Bonkers.
If you don't vote, you don't count.
ReplyDeleteAnd people who think this election has anything much to do with the independence cause are living in a deluded bubble. All you need to do to gain Scottish independence is to get 60% of people in favour of it. As far as I can see, any sembelenece of a campaign for indy over the last decade has consisted of 'shut up - it'll be great, just because', and I can't see that changing. You are unlikely to change people's opinions by being arrogant, stubborn, cloth-eared, blinkered, and vapid.
If you dont vote you have no right to moan about anything after the election.
ReplyDeleteYou gave up that right by not voting.
Its like being asked where do you want to go for dinner, then moaning the resturant you go to that rest of family or friends chose is shite. You had a chance to say im no going tbere but didnt.
So if you dont choose JSTFU
We can imagine the scene : miiddle of July . The new labour PM after choosing his cabinet and writing the King speech, comes up to Glasgow for an hour photoshoot .
ReplyDeleteA big union flag , Sarwar at his right hand and 20 , 30 or 40 smiling new " Scottish " labour MPs. All the Britnat media will give max coverage.
Great British energy will get a big welcome - Scottish energy keeping UK folk warm. At least folk in Yorkshire won't have to put up wi wind farms all over their hills.They will be in Scotland.
And so much better in 2026 to get two governments working together- Sarwar for FM. Libdems in coalition with Labour. Tories sit on their hands to allow a unionist administration .
And Alastair Jack's predictions is correct ; now we can have shiny new nuclear power stations south of Edinburgh and in Dumfriesshire.
INDEPENDENCE NO MORE.
You obviously don't have much confidence in the SNP's ability to turn things around by 2026. If you don't believe they can, why should the rest of us?
DeleteAye , let's give up , accept the wonderful union and become little Britons. End the division Fool Britannia, Land of Dope and Tory!
DeleteOf course , they won't turn things around by 2026 . But if we keep Indy alive in the minds of folk at least we have a chance to put pressure on the SNP on the second vote.
DeleteOr do we give up on Alba too?
Perhaps we just have to give up all together?
After all there will be a few more hundred thousand English settlers then too.
Scotland nae mair!
Hey Shrimp once you have posted your postal vote why not tell me how long you will put up with the SNP just getting told to pissof by PMs. when asking for a sec 30. Is it 10 PMs or is it 20 years? How long?
ReplyDeleteOf course other numpties can let us in to their thinking. Don't be shy. How long?
So peaceful when you were away for several weeks. The pro britnat.
DeleteAnon at 5.16pm - same troll.
DeleteI will put up wi the SNP doing F.A for 22 months and then vote Alba on the 2nd vote
ReplyDeleteand that what you and others would do too , if you had any sense. Unless , of course , you really are Britnats?
Anon at 2.52pm. That is not an answer to my question. For numpties like you I will repeat it.
DeleteHow many years will you put up with the SNP asking for a sec 30 or how many PMs will you accept telling the SNP to pissof before you wake up and realise this is a waste of time.
Voting Alba on the regional list is what should have happened in 2021. You will be 5 years late. You really are a numpty.
Hi is just an idiot, not a Britnat.
DeleteAnon at 5.09pm - same troll.
DeleteTee hee, you got that wrong, silly billy.
DeleteAnon at 8.54pm - you still in primary school and just got your first IPad.
DeleteObviously , I'm a numpty because I don't agree wi IFS
ReplyDeleteWe numpties think the time to put pressure on the SNP is in 2026 when we're not hampered by a FPTP system.
( obviously those English/ Brit Scots posting on here and pretending to be Indy supporters aren't numpties because they do agree with IFS.)
Alba gu brath!
You really are a numptie if all you've got is to constantly repeat this nonsense about 'pretend' indy supporters posting on here. Change the record ffs!
DeleteThe constituency vote is FPTP.
DeleteHow long anon?
22 months , I've felt thee that , are thee no listening?
DeleteYes constituency vote is FPTP , hence I'll vote SNP on that . Alba on 2nd vote. If Alba or other Indy parties do well they could hold SNP feet to the fire . Or medium term they could get established and go on to be a major player on both votes.
Politicians SNP or otherwise have to be pressured into action. This is oor best plan for independence .
Or give up and let Labour win in GE Scotland and strengthen their platform for the 2026 HR election .
Independence will then be oot o the public ken - fae a generation or fae ever!
At least the SNP keep the idea of independence alive in the public's mind . Folk are fickle, they might well forget about independence
The media will mak sure o it!
Alba gu brath.
Please don’t bring common sense into the argument. IFS and his wee Anon pals don’t like it, and it’s their baw. Cue abuse, and ah but your anon cries. IFS really does think he is not anonymous but we all are. And before you ask, no, he doesn’t identify himself. He’s just a bit thick.
DeleteWhat's the matter petal? Do you not have any wee anon pals to support you? Never mind you can always just agree with yourself as so many do.
DeleteCan you not think up comments of your own, you silly billy? Still, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so thanks.
DeleteMy god there Ain’t half some numpties posting on this site. If you don’t believe the SNP are for Independence. You must be from another planet. If you believe in Independence get up off your backsides and get out and speak to people and be less keyboard warriors. I have been in the SNP for nearly 30 years and do not intend to join any other party it’s SNP all the way. I have terminal cancer but it doesn’t stop campaigning. Even today as I was being transported to hospital in an ambulance. I managed to convince the paramedic to vote SNP and detailed to him why. He learned something new and will now vote SNP having previously been undecided how vote.
ReplyDeleteHow long anon?
DeleteBest wishes Anon, sorry to hear about your health issue.
DeleteIIS- how rude. Mind your own business.
DeleteAnon I think IFS means "how long to independence" not how long you have to live.
DeleteSame Anon, I was helping a paramedic give CPR in an ambulance and I managed to convince him to vote SNP whilst I was doing it and when the guy woke up his first question was about the election so I convinced him to vote SNP as well as he was being wheeled into Resus.
DeleteI'm just that good!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
DeleteAnon at 4.41pm - read my earlier posts ya numpty. I have asked how long will you accept asking for a sec 30 or how many PMs you will accept rejecting an SNP request for a sec 30. Why don't you answer my question instead of making stupid comments.
DeleteI have to say I’m getting increasingly suspicious that IFS is a unionist plant, on here for the sole purpose of riling supporters of independence.
ReplyDeleteSaid it often enough but I now think he is actually just really really thick.
DeleteAnon at 5.12pm - troll.
DeleteAnon at 5.14pm probably same troll.
Pathetic.
Nerve struck it seems.
DeleteMaybe James can explain why someone basically offensive to everyone is permitted? Strange doesn’t seem to attack the unionist parties despite the IFS pretendy. Maybe had too many Iv’s?
ReplyDeleteI mean he's allowed someone who consistently posts that John Swinney is the best First Minister in the history of Devolution and has proven his strategic brilliance. Fist bumping the air whenever there's a positive poll for the SNP etc.
DeleteQuite blatantly obvious trolling.
Weel , there's eejits on baith sides.
DeleteAnon at 5.20pm - obviously James believes in free speech something which you do not and are too stupid to wotk out for yourself. Your post contains lies.
DeleteAnon at 5.58pm - I'm on the side of independepence. You, who knows- you are anonymous.
Oh dear - you call so many people liars. Are you sure you aren’t seeing your reflection off the window?
DeleteAnon at 10.27pm stop posting lies about me and you won't be called a liar. Surely even you can understand that.
DeleteAlthough the biggest eejits are those that think that by not voting they'll promote the cause o Independence .
ReplyDeleteWell voting SNP certainly isn’t a vote for independence, that’s for sure.
DeleteFolk like you think that everything is black or white . Are you not capable of nuanced thinking?
DeleteAnon at 6.46pm - your post is a joke. You cannae even make it clear which of the anons above you are referring to.
DeleteIt’s blindingly obvious which post he is replying to. Maybe think before you post?
DeleteAnons too lazy like 8.49pm to make it clear who they are replying to are a pain in the ass.
DeleteIf independence does not happen it will not be for any lack of input towards this on the part of the SNP.
ReplyDeletePeople could vote for Alba because Alex Salmond wants independence doesn't he? or is it still Devo Max
ReplyDeleteAnd why are all the Alba supporters agreeing with Nigel Farage over Russia these days?
Dr Jim posting vitriol and lies but trolls decide to leave him alone as always. This shows that these trolls are fake when they say they are against vitriol and abuse. They are against the truth about Sturgeon's gang being spoken.
DeleteSturgeon’s gang? What age are you? Vitriol seems to be a speciality of the multiple poster IFS, (pal of yours) and and while I’m not going to descend to your level of calling people liars, his connection to reality does, on many occasions, appear somewhat tenuous. Your own post contains a direct contradiction, bit I’ll leave you to figure it out for yourself. Byeee.
DeleteAnon at 9.36pm - Dr Jim is a proven liar and I have proved it on SGP previously. What does my age have to do with it? Trolls like you won't be missed. Byeee.
DeleteYou're a fraud IFS and you're found out
DeleteThis guy is nuts he thinks everybody is in a Nicola Sturgeons gang
DeleteYeh, his fixation on the FM of who left early last year knows no bounds. Appears to be in some time warp and can’t move forward. You almost think ifs wishes her still to be there so he can call for her resignation again, again and again. Unintended consequences has now meant that those who thought they could undermine the SNP to collapse have now found that Swinney is looked on as a steady hand compared to the bitter Salmond’s crowd, tories and even labour are now seeing the SNP gaining back votes due to their Brexit policies and silence on Palestine.
DeleteAnon troll talking to himself at 10.20pm and 10.24pm and 10.37pm. Just how have I been found out? Go on spill the beans ya numpty.
DeleteSwinney certainly had a steady hand when he was redacting all the incriminating papers during the Inquiry in to the actions of Sturgeon, her government and her special advisers in persecuting Salmond. A bunch of crooks led by Sturgeon = a gang. The only people in a time warp are continuity SNP numpties.
You anon are a liar as I have never called for Sturgeon to resign.
Your post like you are full of shit.
I see Baroness Colonel Ruth Davidson of Somewhere-She-Couldn't-Get-Out-Of-Fast-Enough is touting herself around the celeb TV shows again. The House of Lords expenses can't be as lucrative as she must have been led to believe. *sad face*
ReplyDeleteBit of a mean comment. We are better than this!
DeleteOh, I'm ever so 'umble, sir. Mustn't speak ill of my betters, m'lady.
DeleteAway and waggle your union jack
I think you mean Baroness Rape Clause Ruth of Untruth.
DeleteI’m guessing you don’t care about rape victims?
DeleteBaroness Bedroom Tax.
ReplyDelete("I'll guffaw for the cameras and collect my fee!")
Ruth senses an opportunity to snatch the top job after an absolute catastrophe of an election.
ReplyDeleteThat or a plush position back at the BBC. Her career rolls on.
Only a numpty can't spot the difference between Anonymous and Anonymous
ReplyDeleteOn the SNP propaganda site called WGD arch propagandist and self confessed liar says this:
ReplyDelete" And there is no investigation into their finances. Only into max 3 individuals, none of which are even being taken to court, even after several years of desperate attempts to find evidence. "
Skier lying his face off once again and not one person on WGD challenges the blatant lies. Skier lies like a Britnat. What's desperate is Skier and his obvious lies trying to whitewash a shameful episode in the SNPs history. Sturgeon still being investigated by the polis along with the Treasurer Beattie and neither have been suspended from the SNP.
A reminder that Sturgeon suspended Michelle Thomson for two years and she was never investigated or interviewed by the polis.
Very few people read his Liarrhoea
Delete