Nominations for the general election have closed, so the die is now cast. I was hoping Alba wouldn't stand as many as nineteen candidates in a first-past-the-post election, but on the other hand I'm relieved they're not standing any more than nineteen, which at one point seemed entirely possible. So we'll now see how the strategy plays out. I've been to enough Alba events over recent weeks to know that the candidates have clearly had it drilled into them that if anyone challenges them over splitting the pro-independence vote, their answer must be that they are not splitting it, they are mobilising it, and will be taking votes from disillusioned former SNP voters who would otherwise be staying at home or voting Labour.
The obvious counter-argument is that it may be pretty much impossible to run on a strong independence platform without also taking votes directly from the SNP. So as Sheena Wellington said in the comments section of The National the other day (I'm not sure if it was *the* Sheena Wellington), it may be that Alba are both mobilising and splitting the Yes vote at the same time.
There's also the question of what happens in the thirty-seven constituencies where there is no Alba or Alba-backed candidate. There's not much use in mobilising the independence vote in one-third of constituencies if you effectively demobilise it in the other two-thirds. Surely that's a very real danger if your campaign is relentlessly negative towards the SNP and if you paint the SNP as not really being a pro-independence party at all. The message you're indirectly sending to pro-independence voters in those other thirty-seven constituencies is that perhaps they should stay at home, which would be absolutely disastrous.
It would be really helpful if Alba put out a clear message that, in spite of their misgivings, they think voters should back the SNP or another pro-independence party in seats where there is no Alba candidate.
* * *
I've previewed the constituency race in Central Ayrshire for The National - you can read the piece HERE.
Usually political parties do not usually do that unless there is an explicit pact. What can be done is to say "back another pro-independence party" in seats the party is not standing in but not explicit endorsement of a rival party.
ReplyDeleteAlba explicitly called for an SNP vote in the constituency ballot in 2021. However if they said "vote for a pro-independence party", that would be fine, that's all I'm asking for. At the moment the risk is that they're tacitly promoting abstention.
Deleteany vote for other so called Indy parties is a disruptor vote...yet they know this and dont care.
DeleteAlba and Salmond have been quite open with voters that they don’t believe the SNP will advance the cause of independence - given this is their position - one I think is completely disingenuous incidentally - how Woolf encouraging people to vote further their agenda - an agenda that seems primarily anti-SNP?
DeleteThe problem is there are many Alba supporters that believe the SNP are the barrier to Independence. If Alba were to say ‘back the SNP’ can you image the outrage from the likes of Wings, the Crossgate Centre, BarrheadBoy et al.
ReplyDeleteAlba cannot support the SNP when their prominent supporters want Alba to replace the SNP.
There has been a lot of anti messages from Alba on the SNP. Salmond saying they had destroyed his legacy and the Alba claim that the SNP have dropped support for independence. If you look at the Alba feed and for example Neale Hanvey’s feed it’s nearly all anti-SNP.
So I can’t see how they would be able to credibly say vote SNP
And if the SNP are worthy of a vote in the seats Alba are not standing then they must be worthy of a vote where alba are standing with more chance of beating the unionists
Its patently obvious Salmond wants to destroy the SNP and re-mould it in his fashion.
DeletePeople see right through this.
Alba will send 0 MP's to West minster.
The SNP MUST send a majority of candidates to westminster " TO BE IN STARMER'S FACE !
Does that include Galloway party ? Asking for an ex diplomat .. lol
ReplyDeleteOoh mercury! You're a naughty ticket and no mistake. Tell that to the sailors on a Friday night I Pompey. I say tell that to the sailors on a Friday night in Pompey! What??!!
DeleteIt isn't pro independence
DeleteI mean the SNP are making it increasingly difficult as it's being noticed that they're barely using the word "independence" in their election campaign.
ReplyDeleteAlso unlike previous elections the word "independence" won't be under the name of SNP candidates on the ballot paper. It's a task to ask people to support a party for independence who aren't actively prioritising independence.
I agree that Alba should be supporting ISP and the 'Independents for Independence' candidates in constituencies where they're not standing like they're doing with Angus MacNeil though.
Take this crap to WoS.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteWhat part was inaccurate?
DeleteAlso please don't give me the "Everyone knows that the SNP supports independence so they don't need to talk about it" nonsense.
Cobblers. Last 2 articles on the SNP website, 2nd last by Swinney ends:
Delete"At this election, let’s unite to protect our public services, tackle the cost of living crisis, and escape the disaster that is Westminster’s Brexit. Let’s put the interests of Scotland first and unite for the kind of brighter future that Westminster can never provide and is only possible with independence."
and the last from Forbes which doesn't have to mention Independence as it makes several comments like this one:
"Just Imagine how we could deliver for communities and businesses across Scotland if we had the fiscal and monetary levers currently hoarded by Westminster."
and this:
"This is cast iron proof that Westminster’s outdated ideas don’t deliver for our economy. Scotland’s divergent path – that of a modern, diverse social democratic country – is not only in keeping with our European neighbours but it’s a heck of a lot more successful than what Westminster offers us."
This is while Swinney's emphasised that the SNP are back to being moderate centre left (instead of being dragged far left by the extreme Greens), and Forbes pointed out that business really likes Swinney and Forbes (read the business news - it does).
The BHA left the SNP in a complete guddle - Yousaf ended that, and Swinney and Forbes have mended the fences.
I hope to see Indy front and centre just before the postal votes go out - 2 weeks before the election.
Judging by Stephen Flynn's interview today (after being pressed on why he didn't mention indy once in the debate) the hopeful message was: "It will be for Keir Starmer in all likelihood the next Prime Minister to then determine whether he'd adhere to the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland"
DeleteI'm not holding my breath that messaging will sway many as we've heard it before.
Stephen Flynn ploughs his own furrow.
DeleteAnon7:29 Blasphemer! Heretic! Get the pitchforks and burning torches out.
DeleteAre the independents 4 independence candidates actually putting that on the ballot paper so that voters can find them?
DeleteI was having a look at all the “notices of poll” for Edinburgh’s seats:
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/download/15754/uk-parliamentary-general-election-4-july-2024-notice-of-poll-election-agents-and-situation-of-polling-stations
I believe these candidate names and descriptions are final for the election. So why so many blank independents? Aren’t indies 4 Indy running anywhere in Edinburgh?
Also: look at the nominators for the independent candidate Alex Martin in Edinburgh South. Is he running for Gaza or something? Voters won’t know in the booth, without a lot of campaigning to get his name recognised first.
It’s a real handicap for independent candidates but only political parties can register descriptions with the electoral commission. Independents are just described as independents no branding. So the voter can’t distinguish between independent for independence and a candidate that thinks the family party are too soft
DeleteI thought Alba had said that every pro-independence vote (including SNP) should be counted towards the indy cause.
ReplyDeleteBy all means supply a quote, but as I understand it he's referring to a hypothetical future scenario in which the SNP adopt Alba's current position.
DeleteI can't find quote right now, just some broken links. Maybe it was hypothetical or a call for what should happen. Even if so, it at least shows that Alba considers SNP a pro-independence party, and SNP votes an indicator of public support for independence.
DeleteThink salmon said words to this effect on the interview with BBC and Andrew Neil.
DeleteSeems obvious enough anyway, I'd have thought.
Anon 2:07, it may seem obvious to you, but some on here insist that SNP are not pro-indy, so normalise the idea that independence supporters might abstain from voting SNP with no harm done.
DeleteYeh and ALBA have reported The Greens to the Police regarding hate crime legislation!! Really? Ross will be happy for the heat to be taken off him.
ReplyDeleteIs that Ross Thomson? The former novelty MP representing Aberdeen-Weirdsville?
DeleteI’ve recently found myself moving from abstain to vote SNP as at least they’re the pro independence party I’m not overly enamoured with as opposed to any abstention being taken as a decrease in support for independence
ReplyDeleteI keep meaning to post this in wings under my usual monicker aware of the derision it will be met with. It needs said. I’m at a loss with the naivety in both camps but doubt either are up for shifting perspective.
The only winner in the continuing stand off between Salmond and Sturgeonites is the UK Deep State, the architects of it all in the first place
I mean it can't be said Alba haven't offered olive branches or ways to mend the fences in the Yes movement.
DeleteThey've advocated for a Constitutional Convention to unite the Yes movement since Day 1 of their existence, encouraged supporters to vote #SNP1Alba2 in the last Scottish Parliament election, 'vote until you drop' in Council election, didn't stand in the Rutherglen and Hamilton West by-election, offered to work with Humza Yousaf to save his job as First Minister & advocated 'Scotland United' for this General Election to an incredibly ecessive extent until it became embarrassing to continue to do so.
SNP slapped away every single olive branch ever offered & they voted down a strategy to work with other parties at their Party Conference. If the divisions in the Yes movement are ever to be healed then it will require The SNP to make an effort as thus far they haven't.
Do you seriously believe Nicola Sturgeon is part of the so-called deep-state?
DeleteHonestly?
Sadly he does. And you cannot debate with that level of delusion.
DeleteAnalogy:
DeleteIf the UK deep state is the Solar System then NS is just an asteroid that has been deflected and pulled this way and that. But the outcome is that the KT Extinction Event of Scottish politics is rapidly approaching.
It's for intelligent Indy lifeforms to prepare, co-operate [!] and survive.
Completely aware of all that. I’m not defending anything they’ve done
ReplyDeleteLike when they slapped a pickled mackerel on Christanel McKenzie's face? I don't think so.
DeleteALBA should leave the Westminster election to the SNP and instead concentrate on the Scottish elections. After all, it was the Scottish national party via the Scottish parliament that delivered the independence referendum. ALBA can put pressure on the SNP if they get elected to the Scots parliament but standing at Westminster is just Salmond upping his own vanity ego.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely
Delete"After all, it was the Scottish national party via the Scottish parliament that delivered the independence referendum"
ReplyDeleteUnder who's leadership?
David Cameron's.
DeleteNo, that was Brexit.
DeleteIndyref certainly wasn’t Nicola’s doing. Nor comfortably British Swinney’s.
The idea that a political party would be concerned about taking votes from a different political party is absurd. Although not as absurd as Alba's last 'Vote SNP!' election campaign. That went well for them...
ReplyDeleteSo we have to vote SNP, even if we don't believe a word they tell us. Just because they are a so called nationalist party. Is this not tge heart of the problem. When one party becomes so entitled , they can do whatever they like.
ReplyDeleteThe SNP have lost their way. We do not steer them back by embolding them. We have to send a message, and they have to listen.
Nothing good will come of returning the same useless 47 MPs. The SNP have to earn our vote, not feel entitled to it.
Labour when they were the dominant Party in Scotland had the same sense of entitlement to our votes. Their supporters would only need to say that Labour were the only viable option available and by voting for anyone else you risked a Tory Government.
DeleteWhen all you're left with as a reason to vote for a political party is that they're "the only viable option" you've already lost.
I agree. By re-electing the same do-nothing chancers they learn nothing and settle back down to their pipes and slippers in London. The party needs a shock to bring it back to its senses and that can only be achieved at the ballot box. Votes need to be earned, not just taken for granted - that's the lesson they should have learned from what happened to that other bunch of wasters Scottish Labour.
DeleteHi Scott. Tell us more about deep state Sturgeon. Looking forward to the film. Anyone who thinks Alba are a viable option should read Scott’s posts. He makes IFS sound like a rational individual.
DeleteI haven't mentioned anything about a deep state Sturgeon. Not sure what you're on about.
DeleteHe's mistaken your reply to an anonymous comment at 8:24 for your own words. He does it again further on. In addition, somebody has bought him the Bumper Book Of Political Cliches for his birthday and he repeatedly tells us all to 'own' the consequences of not voting SNP. Oh, and he also thinks everyone is IFS or part of his gang.
DeleteBe realistic: At the last Scottish local elections Alba got a total of zero councillors elected. I don't think they have become any more popular over the last two years. Their existential challenge is more apt than balancing Alba voters on a pinhead.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure about that. Maybe true. Maybe not. Maybe neither.
DeleteI have been a member of the SNP since Margo McDonald won the Govan by-election in 1974.I have always wanted independence,and still do.When people on this site say that the SNP dont want independence,they are also talking about me,and that is hurtful. I was working with my SNP candidate in Inverness and he certainly wants independence as well.I quote from his election leaflet.
ReplyDeleteWith independence,we can build a prosperous economy,provide our people with the opportunities they deserve,and offer the support they need during difficult times.
My cadiate has also earned praise for his hard work for his constituents,and his advocacy for vulnerable and deprived communities.He also got a commitment from the UK government to fast track benefits for terminally ill people to securing millions of pounds of private and public investments to improve digital connectivity .He does not deserve the criticism on this site that he is usless,like all SNP MPs.Remember that all of them are heavily outnumbered in a hostile environment that does not respect Scotlands interests.
I do agree that their is a need for all parts of the independence movement to work together,and to help each other.It is also important that people on this site recognise that we face a legal challenge to our independence,and to focus on ways of getting around the roasdblock,rather than bashing one part of that movement (The SNP).
.
My candidate(Drew Hendry) was awarded an MP of the year award for his work supporting disadvantaged and rural communities reference to committed campaigns to get a fairer energy system for people living across the Highlands and Islands.He is just one example of many fine SNP MPs who hostile environment,to work on behalf of their constituents and Scotlands interests.It is sad to see people on this site dismissing their contribution .
In response to this: There are good people in the SNP and some SNP MPs who deserve to be re-elected. On the flip side of that we've also got some SNP MPs who seem to have grown far too comfortable to the Westminster lifestyle.
DeleteBut mainly when people say "The SNP aren't interested in independence" they mean the leadership. Because looking beyond the rhetoric we've pretty much remained stagnant for the last decade & when you look closely at the wording of the SNPs strategy for how to move independence forward it's to put it bluntly laughable.
The SNP have regressed to the old strategy of asking Westminster for permission and saying that the next UK Government will succumb to the democratic pressure and grant us another referendum... we should have moved on from that by now as it's obviously never happening!
Even Nicola Sturgeon after the Supreme Court ruling said that the Section 30 route has been closed off to us and in her view that only left a de-facto referendum as the only viable option. But it's now almost like that whole thing never happened, it's so bizarre.
We've also had wasted opportunities like Brexit, focus on other controversial issues (which arguably brought down the last two First Ministers) & there still doesn't seem to be a viable plan for the future.
Even in the comments on the blog people no longer talk about how independence would actually be progressed following yet another SNP victory, it's now just a desperate plea that we need to Vote SNP to "keep the dream alive".
Despite the big disconnect in the polls between support for independence and support for the SNP we've got people like Stephen Flynn saying that the plan is for Keir Starmer to respect the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland... you'd think at this stage they would opt for something a little more radical as looking at the polls they might as well try to win the indy supporters back!
People are understandably annoyed at the SNP with good reason!
Exactly right, Scott.
DeleteThe party has badly lost its way. Not the members but the leadership.
Well said. It’s easy to carp from the sidelines. Those who do are usually ignorant and in some cases delusional. Scott claims that Sturgeon is part of a deep state conspiracy. The lizards will be taking over soon.
DeleteAnon @ 1:04 PM Check the comments of the blog again. The only person who mentioned a "deep state" was an anonymous commenter who said they were moving from undecided to voting SNP.
DeleteIt doesn't help your argument when you attribute comments to the wrong person.
Okay Scott,I get your point.I often think that way myself.However,my concern is that while many people blame the SNP for wasted opportunities,nobody is coming forward with a clear agreed strategy to bypass the Westminster roadblock,.There are all kinds of ideas but no agreement about the best way ro go.Of course the delay in achieving independence is frustrating.I should understand that since I was working to achieve it since 1974 (about 50 years).In spite of my personal frustration,I still feel that it is vital to protect the SNP.They are an important part of the whole independence movement,It is not true that that they have given up on independence.If people stay at home,or vote for a unionist party,we should know what the consequences will be for independence.As an SNP member,I do want to avoidethat,and to see collaboration among all strands of the independence movement in order to generate creative thinking,in order to move things forward,.
ReplyDeleteAn agreed strategy on the best way forward would require all pro-indy parties and organisations to actually talk to each other though.
DeleteAlba for example has consistently called for a Constitutional Convention since Day 1 of their existence. We need something like that to take place in order to move forward but there hasn't been any willingness amongst the SNP leadership for that of cooperation thus far.
That's also part of the annoyance as there's an element who essentially say that the only form of unity on the table is for everyone else to just shut up and get behind the SNP. Alba's 'Scotland United' strategy for example was widely ridiculed & there's surprise that the supporters of it aren't going to vote SNP regardless after being laughed at?
There's also a big disconnect in the polls between support for the SNP and support for independence. That needs addressed and it's clear what the SNP have been doing and what they're doing at the moment isn't addressing that disconnect.
Yes Scott,I agree that there is a disconnect between the polls and support for the SNP just now.I am also aware of Alba calling for a constitutional convention.I think that is a good idea and I am not against that.I am no longer in a leadership position in the SNP, but we do talk about such things among ourselves.Of course there are problems to be overcome,but my concern is about the divisions within the independence movement.Especially when we attack each other in a manner that is not constructive.I know that politics is not perfect but I try to see the big oicture,and that is about the best route to independence.While the SNP ihas achieved much to be proud of in government,I know that they are not pefect,.However,I will work for them,and vote for them,because they are an important part of the independence movement .
DeleteAlba are serious about independence..
ReplyDeleteSNP aren't.
Alba needs votes from thicko SNP voters.
We get it..so they have to pretend.
But they've tried that already and snp chucked th m a rubber ear and colluded with the BBC to demonise them electing dozens of nawbags in 2021 instead..
No evidence they've changed..so sooky boy is over..
They're introducing themselves to the electorate for a big shot at 2026..
The real question is whether SNP will make a pact for 2026. I'm pretty sure they won't..in which case alba will stand everywhere on the constituency too .
It’s that you IFS? As rude as ever. Still in 5wks Alba will have no MP’s and call it success.
DeleteProbably be a broad Scotland United pact (mainly alba, angus, indeps for a indy on list) and alba will stand in lots of constituency seats...
ReplyDeletedats de way it is..sooky boy didn't work so need to fight em..real politik
Seek help wee man.
DeleteI dont agrre with you De sf June that the SNP are not serious about independence,Their problem is in finding a solutiond to the resistance of the UK government.I believe that Alba are also serious about indepence .but I dont see them offering an explanation about what we should do when Westminster says no.We know what the problem is,but what is the solution? I am sure that if all parts of the independance movement got together,we could find a solution.That would be more productive than insulting each other.For example calling, SNP members thick) on this site is disrespectful,and does not help us to achieve what all of us want.
ReplyDeleteTo avoid having a very lengthy blog comment this is Alba's strategy: https://www.albaparty.org/scotlands_strategy
DeleteBasically using every election as a mandate for independence itself rather than a referendum & the threshold would be a simple majority of votes cast for all pro-independence parties.
Then using a combination of Parliamentary Action, Popular Action, Legal Action & International Pressure to move forward as obviously obtaining over 50% at the ballot box in support for independence would put us in a completely different position and would open up new avenues to us.
Yes I did know that Scott.I have looked at the Alba website.However,my question remains,What do we do when Westminster says no,as they will? I think that there is a part of the independence movement called Salvo that is working on that.I am trying to find out more.There is much to do.I dont see the SNP as the entire independence movement ,just a very important part.For that reason,while listening to everyone else.I will work for them,and want them to come out of the general election with a good numer of MPs. being returned.
Delete1. Lobby internationally:
Deletei. EU - easy meat - we're not in it. - by leaving the EU you're country could literally break up. EU happy to recognise Scotland especially back into single market and future EU and as a deterrent to other Brexit type countries.
ii) African nations - Britain has few friends here - discussing reparations for imperial past would win plaudits.
iii) Eastern europe - maintain Nato membership commitment etc
to europe in general - Scotland's massive renewable energy potential and the ability to harness that for european transition.
to USA and rUK: UK enjoys a seat at the security council that its status doesn't deserive any more - rUK can keep it if they recognise scotland - if they don't we declare UDI.
To Ireland - Sinn fein will likely hold power in both sides from next irish gen election. lobby with them. they'll support us.
Appoint strnog nationalists to head of law and police doe Ian Anderson and Dorothy Bain. if rUK stil obstructs in the presence of majority support for indy at a plebiscite close borders with NI (don't want huns coming over) and declare UDI and appeal to the nations you've lobbied for recognition.
Alba don't reveal their hand because the strategy is multi-layered, they don't want to tell their opponents their strategy and because SNP , the media and many of the docile scottish population would have a field day if the acronym ID was mentioned despite it being the most well worn of successful indy routes.
I'm de sf not IfS. But I hold the same real yes beliefs.
Scott. That’s a general statement of possible action. It’s certainly not a plan. It’s pretty much what the SNP have said. Flesh out popular action for us. What will you actually do?
DeleteSorry,I meant to say: in my previous post:calling SNP voters thick is disrespectful, and does not help us to achieve what all of us want.
ReplyDeleteVote ISP if they are standing otherwise spoiled ballot
ReplyDelete#End The Union
Do NOT vote SNP for 5 more years of......nothing
I despair.
DeleteWhat good is voting ISP or writing “End the Union” on your ballot paper going to do?
Have you lost the plot completely?
If I was a unionist I'd come on here and make posts like that. Don't vote SNP; if in doubt who to not vote for, don't vote at all.
DeleteNeth,with respect,a spoiled ballot paper,is not going to help us end the union.I might not be around in 5 years,so you can understand that I am in a hurry to end the union .For tht reason,I will be voting SNP,although I respect all views
ReplyDeleteWe used to have a laugh in the Yes movement, now we're calling our own 'idiots" and "thickos".
ReplyDeleteCan't remember the last time some concentrated on unionists rather than fellow yes supporters.
Perhaps some are Unionists just looking to sow discord.
DeleteIt's also very tiring being told we're just helping the unionists if we intend to vote Alba or it's somehow an MI5 infiltrated Party designed to protect the union.
DeleteI don't want to tire you out, but I think it is too.
DeleteI sign back up to Yougov plus Survation yesterday, and get polled by both of them this morning on voting intention / political questions.
DeleteWe all need to own the consequences of how we vote. Strangely those who oppose voting SNP are reluctant to do so and get angry when the consequence of their action is put to them.
DeleteOP here here
DeleteLabour are not being skewered for brexit nearly enough
By ceasing to be a far right anti-EU party, and becoming an economically centre right pro-EU party, NR has managed to grab some of the centre right vote. Scotland wouldn’t be dragged out of the EU by the French National Rally if they were in power here in the UK. By contrast, Labour does keep Scotland out of the EU as it’s far more right-wing anti-migrant.
DeleteI understand how you feel 8:49 am.I am also tired at being told (wrongly that the SNP does not want independence..The real issues are:
ReplyDelete1) For all parts of the independence movement to get together and agree on a strategy to achieve independence,since there are many different ideas about how best to progress.
2) For all pro-independence parties to cooperate with each other,in order to maximise the election of pro-independence candidates.It is self -evident that if they compete against each other,that can result in a unionist candidate being elected.While we could count the total vote for SNP.Alba and Greens in the general election,we know that the unionist dominated media will only concentrate on the number of SNP MPS that are elected
2)
For point two wouldn't that have been the "Scotland United" strategy Alba pushed for but the SNP rejected?
DeleteI believe that I answered your question 9:31.I would add that Kate Forbes,the Deputy First Minister argued during her campaign to become SNP leader and First Minister that cooperation with all parts of the independence movement.While politics is a messy business,plenty of us in the SNP agree with her.She also argued for the need to explain the relevance of independence to everything that matters to voters.I see that John Swinney and SNP literature in my constituency is also saying that.It is tragic that there is division within the independence movement because together we will win,divided we will find it more difficult.
DeleteActions speaker louder than words though.
DeleteThe Greens for example are directly responsible for Humza Yousaf being forced to resign and Yousaf implied in his resignation speech that working with Alba would be "selling his soul".
A new leader was the perfect opportunity to do things differently (ironically Swinney didn't run last year because he said the SNP needed a fresh approach but I digress), but since taking over I don't believe Swinney has made any attempts yet to heal the divisions in the Yes movement? If anything he's insisted "Only the SNP can deliver independence".
All this going on and on and on about the SNP and all the waspish minutiae being repeated year after year is a red herring and you all know it. It's all about Alex's strategy to get into Holyrood with his own chosen people and he'll work with anybody anywhere anytime to achieve that and the other things he wants. It's not about using this GE to get independence any quicker than anybody else because that's a nonsense. He merely needs some current SNP people to be around for him and his chosen ones to piggyback their positioning because he can't attain that advantage without them.
DeletePretending this GE can speed up getting a referendum or independence is for the birds. Alex simply needs bods in Westminster so he has the continued excuse to float around down there and expand his freelancing and solidify his positioning for a return to Holyrood with his chosen ones, do the few years of competence, work closely with Labour, try and get enhanced powers for Holyrood to make sure they are in the energy game with Labour, work for a few years to get the public on side during competence efforts and then maybe think about independence if at some point the stage is reached where it looks like a convincing goer to put before the Scottish public. Ms Cherry has presumably been an obvious need for him by fuelling the GRR to hysterical levels to get the much needed women's support which was always a difficulty for Alex.
The years of convincing the overall Yes movement to abandon the SNP for 'whatever' reasons - does the job for now for Starmer, Labour and to enable Alex's return to Holyrood with his chosen superior minds. Whether independence is the driving force - time would only tell. But for now - it makes life easier for the Starmer messaging that SNP losses, split Yes movement also aiming to give the SNP 'a good kicking' - enables Starmers UK messaging that weakening and kicking the SNP, for this GE, is going to 'change the face of the union' and he and his colleagues already messaging that Labour deserves to be back in it's 'natural home, Scotland'.
All the time-wasting stuff about the necessity to 'give the SNP a kicking and maybe then they will listen' - is red herring nonsense and merely a pretendy enabler for moving on as above.
Should Alba and ISP send weapons to an army that refuses to mobilise under the Independence flag?
ReplyDeleteAnd what are the odds of The National and James Kelly getting together to publish a critique of Continuity SNP?
Suggested title: 'Demob Happy'.
Entitled to look for flaws but I do agree we spend heck of a more time bickering among ourselves than turning on Sarwar, Cole Hamilton et al.
Delete50% of Scots vote independence and 30% support the SNP. They've lost 15-20%, at least half of whom they have really, really lost. That's who Alba are chasing. It isn't actually that difficult to work out.
These people may not vote Alba but they aren't going to be brow beaten to vote SNP either.
The SNP are entitled to go after those they can bring back to their voting pool but there are plenty people who are too far gone. We say splitting, it isn't. They're not voting SNP anymore.
ironically 30% support is considered a big backing of support in many european countries - see Meloni, le Pen, Socialists in Spain etc etc.
DeleteWe've become accustomed to needing 40plus percent (quite rightly) but all this talk of a busted flush when 1 in 3 (in a low ebb) support SNP is wishful thinking from unionists. It's short term fun but could still be long term pain for them.
Meanwhile in the real world?
DeleteALBA policy. All SNP supporters are apparently thick so vote ALBA. ALBA are the purist independent supporters, as all other parties work for the security services. We prefer the SNP to be defeated as it gives “ them” a bloody nose allowing ALBA in 20 years to lead the way to Independence, independence, independence, independence……by saying it many times gives independence. Vote for ALBA so we can remove SNP leaders helped by the unionist parties.
ReplyDeleteThe delusion is incredible but their actions since their creation is worse.
John Swinney: Independence will be front and centre of our election campaign so that's why we're removing all references to independence from the ballot paper.
Delete"as all other parties work for the security services"
DeleteMate, it's Alba that's constantly being accused of being created by the security services to create divisions in the independence movement, Salmond has been bought off, if you don't vote SNP you're a yoon etc.
In reality Alba has offered countless olive branches (scroll up, Scott listed them above at June 9, 2024 at 8:38 PM). There's a reason why there is such a big gap in the polls between SNP support and indy support and you can't blame Alba for it. They've only provided explanations as to why that's the reality and even suggested solutions to address that problem.
Alba is in no position to offer anything to anybody, they are a rogue party set up and designed to destroy, everybody in politics knows it except the mugs that believe what they're doing is constructive, it's not, wake up and smell Salmond's bullshit
DeleteIt is quality bullshit, Salmond's good at it, but it nevertheless is bullshit in large smelly quantities
If Alba didn't exist then something similar would have been created.
DeleteIt's ludicrous to imply that without Alba everything would be sunshine and rainbows within the Yes movement and we'd all happily supporting the SNP. The SNP have lost the support of a large chunk of the independence movement, that's not nonsense or bullshit. All polling backs up that assessment.
It's easy to 'shoot the messenger' and blame anyone and everyone else for your own failings but unless the SNP take a good hard look at themselves and do something quickly then all those polls showing a catastrophic electoral defeat in this election will become a reality.
all Alba are saying is "we're making this our primary objective" and mobilising a disenfranchised Yes vote disillusioned with the SNP.
DeleteI know my own parents are in this camp. They don't see the point of voting at all. They probably will still stay home but at least Alba is attempting to give them an alternative.
The SNP should have seen their unpopularity coming as a governing party and planned in advance. The decoupling of Yes and SNP was always going to happen and should have been planned for. You don't maximise the independence vote by tacking it to one political, governing party. That was always folly and why Yes Scotland of many colours was formed.
Still I see we can agree that The recent resignation of the Israel…… bbc news TV still to inform us that Tory 3 jobs in Scotland is resigning. I do like Salmond’s comments about Ross though.
ReplyDeleteIf Ross resigns as a list MSP another tory is appointed without any fuss. Does this prevent him from being investigated by Holyrood though?
ReplyDeleteYou know, Labour's manifesto doesn't mention Europe and Brexit only once. I hope the SNP does lay down a marker on that issue, because the ~30% of voters who apparently think Labour's going to take us back into the EU are bound for a rude awakening.
ReplyDeleteI find some of the comments about the Yes movement on this forum sad.I am not the enemy of Alba,or any other part of the Yes movement,but I think that the best way for me to make a contribution will be to concentrate on getting my excellent SNP candidate elected in the Inverness,Skye and West Ross -Shire constituency.I am all for collaboration with all parts of the Yes movement,but some of the comments attacking the SNP is a big turn off for me.Yes the SNP are not perfect,but I guess that Alba or the Greens are probably not perfect either.The stalling of progress towards a second referendum is not the fault of the SNP,it is caused by the UK government and the legal challenge.What we need to do is to stop attacking each other,and work together to find solutions to problems.The bitterness has to stop because we have enemies out there who are probably rubbing their hands with glee
ReplyDelete"The stalling of progress towards a second referendum is not the fault of the SNP"
DeleteThe annoyance lies in the fact that the SNP aren't exploring alternative avenues in the face of that reality (Even Nicola Sturgeon said following the Supreme Court ruling that the Section 30 approach has been closed off to us and that only leaves a de-facto referendum).
But since then the SNP have regressed and have just accepted that Westminster has a permanent veto and the only thing left to do is just hope that one day they'll have a change of heart and grant us a referendum out of their respect for Scottish democracy... which is quite frankly bonkers.
the route is
Deleteconvince a majority of votes
request a referendum on that basis
if refuse, go to Defacto vote
in that order.
What SNP have failed to do though is enthuse people to get step one. Alba are trying to enthuse people.
Okay 12:26pm.I do accept your concern.O discussed this with my SNP candidate yesterday.The explanation about the route that the SNP are following is as follows:
Delete1) Wind the general election in Scotland.
2) Next negotiate with the UK government for a referendum
3) If that fails make the next election for the Scottish Parliament a defacto referendum.If that is necessary,I do think that the Scottish election is best for a defacto referendum than a UK wide election,where access to media is more limited
Now that is jut one strategy.I am an SNP member but I do admit that there is some merit in the Alba strategy.There are a variety of ideas about how to advance.An organisation called Savo are looking at some different appproaches,such as establishing that Scotland is a nation,not a colony that needs permission to seperate.While I welcome ideas from all strands of the Yes movement,my concern is about the attitude that we need to give the SNP a bloody nose to teach them a lesson.That does not help any of us,other than those of a unionist persuasion.I think that there is a need for much discussion to fine tune our approach to winning independence.While there is much merit in the Alba strategy,the elephant in the room is always the resistance of the UK government and the attitude of the international communities gold standard for recognition as an independent nation.Parhaps Salvo are onto something
The Alba strategy is effectively the same strategy, they're just talking about it in plain terms.
DeleteAnon @ 1:04 PM You can understand the cynicism people have though as that could be perceived as: They just want to use independence to get safely to the other side of the next two elections.
DeleteThere's an understandable lack of trust due to the inaction of the past decade and all of the 'electoral mandates' acquired during that time.
Why isn't point 3 outlined as being part of the plan on the SNP's website?
DeleteAs far as I'm aware this is still the plan for the General Election: https://www.snp.org/our-strategy-for-winning-scotlands-independence/
Though the SNP seem to have dropped the last part of "Conference further agrees that the SNP will seek to add the words “Independence for Scotland” or words to that effect, to the party’s name and logo on the General Election ballot papers to make it clear beyond doubt what’s at stake at this election" without any consultation with Party members.
The strategy as currently outlined seems to just be a list of demands but doesn't mention what happens when those demands aren't met. It's all very well what candidates might be saying in private but it's meaningless if it's not the clear official position being stated to the electorate.
Alba isn't serious about mobilising the independence vote. It's deliberately undermining it.
ReplyDeleteeh?
Deletethe 15% of people who have stopped voting SNP has nothing to do with Alba.
Let's say at least half of them are not available to the SNP at this election, unpersuadable, but are independence supporters. Alba gives them something to potentially vote for. An alternative.
Astonishes me folk can't see that.
Greens are doing exactly the same. Many green voters wouldn't vote SNP, are pro independence and will vote for another pro independence party.
you don't maximise the independence vote by assuming everyone who wants independence is an SNP supporter. Leaves people out. Clearly so, given the disparity in Yes to SNP polling.
Deletemaximising the yes vote means having more than one party to vote for with different visions.
indeed. The unionists have 3 major parties and we're in the union.
Deletehttps://www.snp.org/theres-only-one-route-back-to-full-eu-funding-choosing-independence/
ReplyDeleteKeep up James. You are not allowed to say things like that. Or so I am told when I tell people to own the consequences of how they vote.
ReplyDeleteWhilst the SNP continue to hold unhealthy grudges against Alex Salmond. The parties will never be united as one front. Alex held out the olive branch to the SNP. They refused to listen, because they believe Alba are insignificant , and the SNP machine can just roll right over them.
ReplyDeleteThis is the entitled SNP. An SNP who happily said good bye to thousands of 30 year plus members. Because the Yoof wing decided we were dinosaurs. That we knew nothing about modern Scotland. That we were yesterdays news.
Well look where the SNP are now! This is what happens when you become entitled and think you have the monopoly on wisdom.
Some truth there but the antagonism went the other way too. Not from Salmond but some of the hangers on were overtly nasty.
DeleteThe Alba vote is not significant at the moment but it has the ability to split the grassroot activist base. Both sides need to send an olive branch in my view
Anon@2:14pm "The Alba vote is not significant at the moment but it has the ability to split the grassroot activist base. Both sides need to send an olive branch in my view" - well said, spot on.
DeleteBrian
Also worth keeping in mind and for some reason people are less annoyed about: The Scottish Greens are standing in 41 seats, Alba are only standing in 19 (20 if you include their support for Angus MacNeil).
DeleteSurely the Greens are more likely to win more votes than Alba (taking them away from the SNP), especially the ones who are annoyed at Kate Forbes being made SNP Deputy Leader but like Alba the Greens won't win a single seat?
I am an SNP member who has nothing against Alex Salmond.I am grateful for what he did for our cause,and I have his book at home,which he signed.I do believe that many other members feel the same. as me.What you are talking about 2:07 was done by a very small number of people within the party,and I do believe that John Swinney recognises that and will deal with it.I do hope that many of the 30 year members who left (I am a 50 year member) will return because it is critical at this moment in time that the SNP do well in the next election.I am not dismissing the contribution of Alba,nor do I feel an entitlement.I just feel that is self evident that a serious blow will be dealt to independence unless the SNP can hold on during a very difficult election
ReplyDeleteWhen support for independence was at 30% the Tories allowed Alex Salmond to have a referendum, they realised this was a mistake when they did not win as easily as they thought, when Nicola Sturgeon took over they flatly refused to allow the same thing under any circumstances because they knew she would definitely win
ReplyDeleteThe problem with Alba supporters is they don't want to admit the truth that the UK government of any stripe will not allow such a thing to happen again because of the clear evidence that independence for Scotland is a real desire no matter who the leader of the SNP is
Nicola Sturgeon proved it to Scotland using the supreme court as evidence that the undemocratic country of England is ruled by a British Nationalist regime every bit as vile as any dictatorship the world has ever seen, and still Scottish people did nothing
No political leader can GET independence, it can't happen in any democratic shape or form, England simply will not allow it
But what England will do is foment argument and discontent amongst ourselves by using certain figures to shatter our desires and togetherness
Unity is how Scotland wins, which party doesn't matter as long as we stick together, and that is why it is 100% certain that Alba and Alex Salmond is not a party of independence or they would not be in existence in the first place
Alex Salmond blew it by his own volition, that's past and done but he is the one who won't let it drop by using it as a grievance tool to amplify his own ambitions instead of Scotland's ambitions
Be in no doubt Alex Salmond is on his own business, not Scotland's
“England simply will not allow it”
DeleteNeither will the 50%+ of Scots who want to remain in the union!
Maybe 50%+ of the resident population but certainly not 50%+ of Scots
DeleteWe most definitely want independence. English colonialism is at work here
"The problem with Alba supporters is they don't want to admit the truth that the UK government of any stripe will not allow such a thing to happen again"
ReplyDeleteUm, isn't that exactly what Alba supporters believe and that's the reason why they've been calling out the folly of the SNP's strategy which hinges on the UK Government agreeing to a referendum?
LOOK , forget ALBA in this general election its totally stupid to vote for ALBA or any other indy party instead of SNP because all you will do is give those english parties Labour Conservative and Lib Dem a better chance of winning the seat , SNP is fighting for Scotland being recognised as a country this time , that does not mean independence is off the menu its still there but you can be absolutely sure that if the english parties get enough seats all the things we have in Scotland e.g. free prescriptions free university education ,etc will be scrapped by the english , they want control of Scotland given back to england they want it big time and are going all out to get it , their tactical voting is back with labour voters still voting Conservative if Conservative have the best chance of winning a seat lib dems and conservatives doing the same , you have been warned votefor your country , if you are Scottish vote SNP .When the Scottish parliament comes around with its different voting system we change tactics and give our second vote to ALBA .Terence Callachan Dundee
ReplyDeleteIndependence won't come via a Uk controlled referendum. We have to move on from the referendum idea. The next Scottish election should be a de-facto. But sadly I have my doubts.
ReplyDeleteWhy should Alba back the SNP as the SNP are now just a Woke Yoon Party? They haven't been an Indy Party since the Woke traitor Sturgeon became leader of it. She is still pulling the strings despite resigning as leader.
ReplyDelete