Yes, I know all the arguments backwards: Pete Wishart is so comfortable in Westminster that he's referred to as "Slippers", John Nicolson is an identity politics extremist who is unacceptable to feminists, Stewart McDonald is (at best) a devolutionist who is infatuated with British militarism, etc, etc. But all of that is totally irrelevant in the current context and I'll explain why.
What people are overlooking is the importance of momentum and story-telling. Think back to the aftermath of the failure to pass the 40% threshold in the 1979 devolution referendum, and the SNP losing nine of their eleven seats a few weeks later at the general election. That created a narrative that the Scottish people had slammed the door shut on devolution through lack of interest, and indeed a generation passed by before Home Rule became possible once again. The media and London establishment are eagerly waiting to declare this election the decisive 1979-style turning-point at which voters put independence back in its box, where it can be safely ignored for the next twenty years. Nobody will give a monkey's about the minutiae or nuances of the views of individual SNP MPs - if someone like Stewart McDonald loses his seat, it will be seen as confirming the narrative of a generational rejection of independence. If he holds his seat, it will be seen as calling that narrative into question and keeping the flame of independence alive. And that's our task for this election: simply to keep the flame alive so we can live to fight another day and hopefully press home for independence in 2026. I very much doubt we'll have that opportunity if the SNP are routed in July. The media will tell the public that they've moved on from the independence question, and the public will believe that about themselves.
If you can't bring yourself to vote SNP for whatever reason, there will be other pro-independence parties like Alba and the Greens to choose from in some seats. But I make no bones about it: if the SNP are the only pro-independence party standing in your constituency, the logic points overwhelmingly towards voting SNP. If you don't, you're either using your vote to do harm to the independence cause, or you're refraining from using your vote to do anything constructive.
But if we always vote SNP "for indy" and they don't actually do anything meaningful to move us towards that goal doesn't that essentially leave us stuck in permanent stagnation?
ReplyDeleteIt will be 10 years since the 2014 referendum this year and we're frankly in a worse position now than we were then. Are we seriously expected to wait another 10 years and continuingly vote SNP purely out of faith that they might one day do something?
What motivation will they have to reform/do things differently if they're just going to keep being elected regardless?
In 10 years time Sturgeon's gang well may put Yousaf up again as FM for a second wee stint to boost his bank account.
Delete"But if we always vote SNP "for indy" and they don't actually do anything meaningful to move us towards that goal doesn't that essentially leave us stuck in permanent stagnation?"
DeleteIt's just a nonsense question. This is an emergency situation, and the outcome is either going to be unionist MPs or SNP MPs. If you think unionist MPs are the better option for independence, you've lost the plot completely and it's time to have a stern word with yourself before it's too late.
I think that's a bit unfair. It's not a nonsense question.
DeleteI agree we should vote SNP but it's a fair question that at some point, they may be stealing votes.
The nonsense us that at this precise moment, the Scottish people want an independence referendum RIGHT NOW. Clearly they do not and the main party needs to convince us. Moaning about that doesn't change this situation.
There are bad actors in the SNP who need purged though. The one mentioned in your arrive is one of them. Been gotten at by airs and graces of Westminster. When you're having wee nicey security meetings with the state you're meant to be breaking up, you're obviously in the wrong party.
This is just ridiculous. I don't think people have any idea of the extent of the crisis we're facing if they think we've got the luxury of "purging" a select group of SNP MPs and replacing them with Labour MPs who we'd probably never get rid of.
DeleteThough if we're facing a crisis in this election wouldn't we be facing the exact same crisis in the next General Election 5 years down the line?
DeleteWhat does that even mean? No, there is nothing inevitable about that, and hopefully common sense in this election will lead to independence before the next general election. But even if we were still on crisis in five years, what's your logic here? That we should embrace the crisis now? Revel in it? Vote unionist? What?
DeleteWhy would we never get rid of a Lab MP?
DeleteEven on a high they're only just ahead.of SNP? They're marginals!!
And if Scotland wants independence, why would we not get rid of Lab MPs?
Delete"Why would we never get rid of a Lab MP?"
DeleteYou just don't get it, do you? Once Scotland returns to voting Labour at Westminster, it will be habit-forming. We'd probably return to the pre-2015 pattern where the SNP is competitive at Holyrood, but Labour are totally dominant at Westminster.
My point is the literal definition of madness is doing the same thing over & over again expecting a different outcome.
DeleteThe biggest roadblock to independence at this point are the SNP. Attempts have been made to reform them from within & attempts have been made to pressure them from the outside all of which have been unsuccessful.
They've had more than enough electoral mandates to progress the cause of independence but all they've done instead is string us along. For me enough is enough and I'm tired of the status quo. If they want my vote they're going to have to do a lot to convince me that by voting for them things will actually change.
At present I don't even see them as being a pro-indy Party as they seem to be perfectly happy with the current settlement with people like Ian Blackford ogling for a place in the House of Lords, and Pete Wishart might have another chance of fulfilling his dream to become the Commons Speaker.
I'm leaning more towards not voting as there isn't an Alba or ISP candidate standing in my Constituency at the moment, if that changes I'll vote for them. Otherwise the SNP have 39 days to change my mind.
I agree totally Scott. I'll vote for a pro-independence candidate if possible but not for any SNP candidate as I no longer believe them to be a pro-independence party. We can't keep letting them gaslight us every time an election comes round only to sit on their bahookies for another five years.
DeleteNo, Scott, the literal definition of madness is to look at a situation where the pro-independence movement is on course to lose dozens of seats, and to think to yourself "I know what I'll do, I'll abstain, that'll help!"
DeleteSo what is this "pro-independence movement"?
DeleteI'm not sure I have much of a say in it.
Hats off to you James, this is exactly the situation we face and kudos to you for saying it out loud despite your party affiliation. I'd add that labour in particular are desperate to increase their vote in Scotland simply to give them legitimacy as a UK party. Really hope folk take heed of what you have said here
ReplyDeletebrobb
Absolutely
DeleteIt's a sad state of affairs if we're being asked to vote SNP to keep independence alive as it's gotten to the point where that's all that's left: Desperation.
ReplyDeleteGone are the days of feeling positive about voting in an election as you genuinely believe that by doing so it will lead to positive change. They're not even trying to answer the question as to why there's such a big disconnect in the polls between support for the SNP and support for independence and rectifying that situation.
We should be demanding that the SNP reaches out to the wider movement and make attempts to heal the divisions, that's much more likely to have an impact than blackmailing former SNP voters to return their vote to the Party otherwise indy is dead. Scots in particular really don't like being told that they must do something.
It's not about "blackmail", it's about pro-independence voters themselves exercising a bit of common sense and realising that you don't get independence by contributing to a unionist landslide.
DeleteShouldn't the SNP be the ones making an effort to retain voters though?
DeleteIf they do end up losing seats it would be quite something to blame the electorate rather than the Party for failing to convince people to vote for them.
James,
DeleteI agree wholeheartedly with your call to arms. I do think the 100/200 (if that) who vote Alba in constituencies are not going to be the deciding factor on this race. Labour also have lib democracy, tories and other partied to contend with. Appreciate we're Alba focused here but the movement needs to turn its sights on Labour and their frailties, and the thousands of votes going that way.. rather than the "Indy splitters"
SNP and Indy need to focus on Labour weak points.
Just my view.
Abhainn
Apologies for typos, I hope point is made!
DeleteAbhainn
Scott, I'm going to ask you politely to stop cynically twisting everything I say. You know perfectly well I am not "blackmailing" voters, I am not "blaming" voters, I am simply urging them to act responsibly and to ignore siren voices like your own, who seem to want them to act as destructively as possible.
DeleteAt long last you have said it outright. Regrettably the IFS brigade will ignore your plea and actively harm the cause of Independence to further their we hate N S agenda. The Indy cause, for them, is at best secondary. And some of them are unionist trolls. Cue the abuse.
ReplyDelete"At long last"? I've been saying it all along. If people have contrived not to hear it, it's because of that faulty translator chip I mentioned yesterday.
DeleteAnon troll at 1.02pm - James has always taken that position. I disagree with him but you are a uninformed numpty. I have no brigade and am not a leader of any brigade. I express my opinion on James blog that's it. I don't do Twitter and number of followers etc.
DeleteSo you support criminal wrongdoing do you anon - just because it is done by the SNP but you hate Tory wrongdoing do you. Guess what that makes you. It does nothing for the Indy cause trying to hide and cover up wrongdoing. I would have thought even for the slow witted that might have sunk in by now.
The self confessed f*****t enters stage left. Read what I said, but slowly this time.
DeleteAnon at 2.13pm - who are you? Numpty I cannae read what you said if you don't tell me where you said it. F*****g moronic troll.
DeleteQuack Quack Mr Britnat
DeleteIsn't IFS a unionist activist? I always got that impression from her posts.
DeleteIt’s, I really don’t see a lot wrong with anon@1:02 post to be honest.
DeleteI think you really need to get a grip!
A new record - three moronic trolls in row. One of them even managed TWO lines. A wee extra bonus from Murray Foote there for troll at 3.05pm.
DeleteSo anyone who disagrees with IFS is a moronic troll!
DeleteOh to be as wise and knowledgeable as IFS.
Anon at 6.15pm - clearly not as James Kelly our host disagrees with me and I aint ever called him a troll. So if you cannae tell the difference between disagreeing and trolling in a post then you anon are just plain stupid or a moronic troll. Take your pick. I know what I think - the answer lies in your second sentence - extra few pennies from Murray for that gem.
DeleteI, and many like me, worked hard pounding the streets for the SNP vote in '15/'17/'19, the referendum before it and the two Holyrood elections contemporary to them.
ReplyDeleteOur successful Westminster candidate told us that he was going to Westminster to make himself redundant and that he did not want to be a career MP - he is standing again this time.
We were successfully misled and effectively deceived. Most of the then activists have left the party and been replaced by those of a more passive outlook. A great betrayal ? YES !
A reason to not vote SNP - NO !
We face a harsh reality but please read James' arguments above again. A big SNP defeat, in the absence of a VIABLE pro independence alternative will damage the cause of independence for years. Grow up, do what is best for the long term - vote for the betrayers while we have to - but also work to build a better option for the future. The rest is kids stuff- playing at politics !
Well said Alt. The IFS brigade have never gone out and knocked a door and canvassed. Keyboard Indies and trolls. Suffocating debate on this site.
DeleteAnon at 2.01pm - are you the same moronic anon troll I told there was no IFS brigade. You anon cowards are pathetic bully boys.
DeleteQuack Mr Angry
DeleteHow do you know who has been out canvassing in the past, you arrogant tosser? Indeed, how do we know that you're not a keyboard warrior trying to stifle dissent? The sooner you anonymous trolls are banned the better the debate will be.
DeleteDonald Duck the anonymous troll at 2.46pm - probably the same person trolling all over SGP. Are you getting paid by Murray Foote the Britnat on a penny per line posted or is it a penny per post? Either way you need to up your game you are nowhere near minimum wage.
DeleteYou have to laugh at the troll saying others are suffocating debate.
iis - vote for unionism troll. Quack
DeleteIFS - illiterate troll. Quack
DeleteDonald Duck the troll at 6.54pm must be getting paid for each post by Murray Foote. What a way to earn some money. Wonder where Foote gets the funds to pay these trolls comes from.
DeleteIFS has never knocked a door or staffed a stall in support of Indy, by his own admission. Who is the troll?
DeleteI will be voting snp as I do at every election. I can't understand why anyone who wants independence would ever consider voting alba. As Humza and John have said as long as we get 29 seats we are in a position to negotiate for a referendum or independence outright.
ReplyDeleteLOL. I was wondering if you're a parody account and that seems to confirm it.
DeleteEveryone is entitled to an opinion, whether you agree with it or not it's entirely your decision. All I ask is you respect my opinion like I respect and value.your opinion.
DeleteOh no the beg for a sec30 surfaces again. May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak all had the same reply - pissof.
DeleteIt's not about "agreeing" with your opinion or not, it's just about whether you're a real person expressing real views, or a wind-up merchant. "As Humza and John have said..."
DeleteThat Constitutional Convention Alba called for really should have happened tbh. Imagine how the last 3 years would have been different if all Pro-Indy Parties & organisations had actually sat in a room together and discussed the best way forward.
ReplyDeleteThis might even have been a proper 'Independence Election' rather than a scramble to keep the dream alive.
Your article puts forward a decent argument for voting SNP if there is no other independence supporting candidate available in your constituency. Now I am fortunate in that I believe I will be able to vote ISP who say they would not attend Westminster if elected and that suits me just fine but others will have to make their own decision.
ReplyDeleteSorry to say you won't get any thanks from the SNP for your support. You didn't previously - all you got was abusive trolling. Not that I think that is your reason for taking this position. I believe you genuinely think this is the best for independence - others think diffferently. I would respectively point out that giving the SNP all these mandates and elected politicians over the last 10 years has left independence in a worst state but the people responsible are still there, have never apologised or pledged to change their ways. Not even the teeniest micro sized bit of remorse.
Apart from that there is what I would describe as the moral quandary of having to vote for people you know without any doubt have carried out unacceptable actions. I did this in 2021. I'm not doing it again.
The major gap in your argument is how will the next ten years be any different from the last 10 years with the same people in charge who clearly are happy with how things are now and are all for continuity.
Are the people of Scotland who want independence still unduly controlled by the Britnat media as they were in 1979 or even 2014. I’m not so sure. Surely most independence supporters know by now exactly who controls the media in Scotland and why. I have personal experience of many people who in 2014 never thought of describing the media as liars and agents of the British state are now comfortable expressing that view and see it as a given.
As I have posted before - gradualism ( the Swinney approach) is about the long run - in the long run we are all dead - and thats what will happen to Scottish independence. Although having 65% identify as Scottish gives me hope.
I think many folk do now recognise media bias but has the damage not been done already? All of us in our different indy factions believing we are right, believing we have been wronged by former allies, believing if only our people were in power we would have secured independence already. The fault lines were maybe always there but it is our self pity and stubborn pride that will allow the unionists to divide and rule us.
Deletebrobb
Anon at 1.38pm - amazingly you seemed to have missed the simple fact that Sturgeon's gang have been in power for 10 years now with multiple mandates. That is who has been doing the dividing and breaking promises.
DeleteI agree, this is the reality. The only message the unionists and British media - and hence world media - will take from this election is the number of pro-indy seats won or lost.
ReplyDeletePeople can and will vote for who they want and for whatever reason, that is their entitlement, but the idea we could more quickly rebuild the movement by allowing the main pro-indy party to fail is fanciful, especially in the environment of a ruthless and unaccountable media who frame the agenda. The Tories and Labour are always given space to rebuild between elections but for independence movement it doesn't work like that. The 1979 case is an excellent precedent. It set things back a generation.
When I said I agree, I mean I agree with the article. Needed to be said.
ReplyDeleteI would like to endorse James Kelly's message. If the SNP is the only pro-independence party in your constituency, please vote for the SNP.
ReplyDeleteIf the SNP is not the only pro-independence party, then vote for the one best placed to win.
A vote for a Unionist party is a vote for the Union. You can be assured that is exactly how the likes of Murray will spin it after the event if you do so simply don't do it.
ReplyDeleteI still think the SNP are the best bet but if you can't vote SNP at least vote for one of the others, don't be apathetic.
As far as the British establishment is concerned the SNP is Scotland and Scotland is the SNP, nobody can say differently because that's been the narrative from Westminster since the day and hour the SNP took power in Scotland
ReplyDeleteThe SNP is the target, if they can be destroyed then Scottish independence is politically destroyed
The first question asked by all media when the issue of Scotland is brought up is "how will this affect the independence question"?
and what they mean by that is *so it's all over then* which always always refers to any defeat the SNP suffer
Look at what happened in the Rutherglen by election when SNP voters just failed to turn out to vote, Labour immediately pronounced themselves as the crushers of Scottish independence following a landslide win that in actual fact was as low a Labour turnout as they have ever had in that constituency previously
If you are English the only politics you've ever heard of about Scotland is SNP, to those people there are no other politics in Scotland, their newspapers at every election are filled with hatred of the Scots and cartoons of our elected politicians
This election is not about the SNP, this election as they all are is about them or us
Independence comes first, then when you've got that you can vote for whoever and whatever politics you like, that's real democracy and not British democracy, which is English British empire rule for life and death until the end of time
I don't care if it's a Plum Duff with a Haggis sticking out of his/her ear is the FM of the Dashing White Sergeant party, I'm voting for Scotland not the man/woman in the suit, and the SNP is all there is when it comes to a choice between my country or theirs
Indeed, to the extent that independence is a democratic movement, the 'fight for freedom' must include what can be done at the ballot box, rather than be derailed by spats about personalities and 'gangs'.
DeleteAny serious, self respecting independence movement has to rise above petty party politics (though the British state must love for us to treat it as a party political/personality game) but use the means at its disposal which means voting to get pro-indy candidates into Westminster.
Many Irish nationalists were ready to vote Sinn Féin despite not necessarily agreeing with everything they stood for, and despite the fact they abhorred Westminster and didn't expect their MPs to do anything once there. But they knew the signal it would send to the British state.
Sturgeon's boy Yousaf made the mistake of arranging a meeting with Ash Regan to discuss the vote of confidence. It didnae happen because Sturgeon gave him his marching orders for even considering it and told him to put a jibe in his resignation speech about Alba/Regan.
ReplyDeleteSturgeon and her gang are the root cause of all the problems. I don't believe the SNP are currently a party of independence. Where is the promised referendum? A de facto Holyrood referendum could have happened in 2021.
iis - you are quite boring at times.
DeleteIt's IFS. You are quite illiterate all the time.
DeleteI'm boring says the one line moronic troll at 3.10pm😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
DeleteMaybe not my first choice but I will vote SNP, alba was never meant to stand in the uk parliament when it started, if the union drags out after the Scottish elections and they do well, then that is the time to put pressure on for Scotland united uk parliamentary candidates, I wish they could of done a deal with the SNP, but the Scottish elections put pay to them having that leverage. if all goes well we could bypass the uk with a constitutional convention, if salvo’s plans hold up. Unfortunately the SNP under sturgeon did a lot of self harm but Alba have now started playing a bad hand. Maybe a compromise could be reached with the SNP in the western lsles north east and Galloway and the borders? But I think it might be to late for that.
ReplyDeleteI remember how the media focused on Alex salmond in the run up to indy ref 1, relentless, often personal attacks following the theory that to destroy the figurehead was to destroy the movement. Eventually they got enough folk doubting Alex, a ploy so successful they use it with each new leader. This means we end up with a AS group, a NS group, no doubt a HY and a JS group all suspicious of each other if not downright hostile. Job done, we'd rather stay in the union than ignore personalities and personal grievances, maybe we are too stupid to go it alone
ReplyDeleteBrobb
The only route to Irish independence is to vote Irish Parliamentary Party. No ifs, no buts!
ReplyDeleteYou think Alba are Sinn Fein, do you? They're going to win the election outright? Delusional.
DeleteIrish independence wasn't won by purists sitting at home on election day watching marginal seats fall to unionists.
DeleteWhat happens if there are multiple candidates for Independence in a constituency? What should I do in Alloa?
ReplyDeleteUse your brain, Who is the best Independence party to win the seat.
DeleteThe SNP obviously.
DeleteWhatever it takes to survive.
DeleteIn Alloa they can't hear you scream.
The problem isn't a few SNP MPs who are blah blah mediocre about Indy, it's that some people think the whole of the SNP is blah blah lukewarm about Indy.
ReplyDeleteAnd that continuing to vote SNP seems to accept that total blahness and indeed, encourage the SNP to continue being blah blah lukewarm and say
"oh yes we support Indy but all in good time you can't rush it, in another 30 years I'll be ready to retire from my cushy presumptive number when I know I can rely on stupid dikwad Indy voters like you brainless moronic plebs continuing to vote SNP because I threaten you that Indy is dead if you don't and like the mugs you are, you then vote SNP.". (genuine SNP candidate quote !!?!!)
The election is in less than 6 weeks time I think, but if just a few days before that (though they should take account of early postal voters), the SNP suddenly show they actually mean business like making the GE a DE FACTO REFERENDUM AS PROMISED then they may get overwhelming support from the long abused YES movement who would actually go out and vote for that; they may even get 57 MPs.
The point is to force the SNP to finally get off their cushy well-padded well-fed and taxpayer subsidised drunk as a lord bottoms. They have less than 6 weeks to do so.
Swinney was pretty clear on this when he was elevated to the leadership.
DeleteAye - Sturgeon "elevated" him for REDACTION services rendered.
DeleteI wonder if any of the people of whom you speak amout actually do anything inma positive sense politically. I want change in the SNP and have worked alongside others to start to deliver it. The return of our National Council being the first of our successes. If the people wjo do all of the moaning on websites about the SNP devoted half their energy into actually working for change and independence then there would be a reasonable chance of delivering it.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened in the 'good guys' election then, when the old guard were simply reinstated through the back door and the members choices were nullified?
DeleteBut wouldn't that imply that attempts at internal reform within the SNP haven't already been tried?
DeleteMost of the founding members of Alba for example used to be SNP members and were involved alongside people who are still in the SNP with an internal "good guys" campaign for the SNP's National Executive Committee (NEC). Their aim was to push for greater transparency and accountability in the party's governance.
The campaign seemed to be initially successful as a lot of new people were elected to the NEC... but that NEC was undermined by the leadership, wasn't able to implement any meaningful changes and eventually previous members who had lost the election were simply just reinstated. This all led to the conclusion that internal reform wasn't possible.
Nobody voting Labour instead of SNP is doing it because wee Jean didn't get a vote on the SNP NEC.
DeleteSeriously..
Go out and talk to voters ffs
Plague on all your houses btw
Of course. But it also starts with you going after unionists first and foremost.
DeleteIt's all friendly fire at the moment going after SNP instead of Labour
The vote has undoubtedly gone to Labour, get real
One problem is that it’s not clear that the SNP are a pro independence party. For good reason some people have their doubts. A second aspect is that whilst one may prefer independence v Union the fact is this may not be a big enough priority among other things that we know the election outcome can actually influence. So any political party who is pro independence has to make the case for independence being the top priority among the range of priorities. I don’t see any doing that with real drive and vigour. So maybe vote whoever has a realistic chance of delivering something positive and hope the failure to promote the independence cause this time pushes the supposedly pro independence parties to be more positive about its importance (as well as their delivery strategy) next time. In any case I can’t see the point of 50 pro independence mps, we tried that and got nothing.
ReplyDeleteSNP "not a pro independence party"! What absolute nonsense!
DeleteI know, it's laughable, isn't it.
DeleteWhat have they done to deliver independence or even a referendum since 2014? And what do they propose to do this time that is different?
DeleteThey proposed an indy vote and lost seats. Want to blame someone blame Scots
DeleteIf you think Alex Salmond tried to deliver independence in 2014 you need your head looked, why do think Nicola Sturgeon can't stand the sight or sound of the man? it's not because of his sexual exploits
DeleteWhat do you think he founded Alba for? he's trying to undermine independence again
Dr Jim at 5.13pm with his nonsensical theories again. You really are a coward Jimbo.
DeleteSNP aren't about independence? You'll tell us that Labour aren't for labourers next.
DeleteIf you listen to SNP politicians they say they are for independence but just not right now. On the marches the chant was " what do we want - Independence. When do we want it - now" It was NOW It wisnae some time in a distant future when everyone alive today is dead.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at the actions of the SNP politicians they don't want independence.
So do you believe what politicians say - like Labour saying they want to abolish the House of Lords for three centuries - or what they actually do.
You're a silly wee troll that talks nonsense
DeleteAnother one line moronic troll from the anonymous coward called Dr Jim. These trolls are like an outbreak of shingles on SGP.
DeleteThe difference, of course, is that Labour were in power in a sovereign country and could abolish the House of Lords, without having to ask anyone else or gain recognition from other countries. Independence is more complicated than that. Simply declaring it is not enough.
DeleteEveryone understood that in 2007, Alex Salmond became FM but did not have the power to call a referendum nor mandate to declare independence. They didn't say 'ooh, he didn't want it enough, so I'm not voting for him'. They knew he had to wait till he had a stronger mandate from the electorate and/or the parliamentary arithmetic.
Excuses and poor ones at that.
DeleteNot excuses. Realities.
DeleteLurker - Realities - some are. I agree with your first paragraph.
DeleteThe second paragraph is just a poor excuse. Sturgeon had plenty of mandates - strong mandates and made loads of promises re indyref2. No if no buts remember. Remember 19/10/2023. Remember the promise of a de facto referendum at this election. These are the realities that count - betrayal.
The union will remain a reality unless pushed against by those we elect. Why did they sit on their hands while Hardcore Brexit was voted through parliament in front of them instead of throwing the place into disarray for us?
DeleteLurker says at 8.57pm - " didn't have the power to achieve it" - well if you believe that then surely you need to be asking yourself why did they make all the promises. Why did they raise money specifically ring fenced for Indyref2?
DeleteYou seem to be putting forward the case that they want independence, knew they couldn't deliver it but pressed ahead anyway made a series of rash promises and fraudulently raised money on the back of false promises. Disnae seem to do the SNP any favours that scenario.
On the other hand my scenario that they don't want independence, never did and are charlatans - well that disnae seem to do the SNP any favours either.
Lurker the SNP had the power to hold a de facto Holyrood referendum whenever they wanted. So sorry but your they couldnae really do anything is just plain wrong. Apart from that what's the point of voting for them if they are as useless as you say and so defeatist. No the truth is they are devolutionalists or as Swinney called himself a gradualist.
You keep shifting the argument; you are making several new arguments and intemperate claims to say why you don''t like the SNP - we get it - but you are not any more convincing when you claim the SNP "don't want independence, never did."
DeleteThere are several reasons independence-supporting voters may not vote SNP - they are there for everyone to see, all across the unionist media - but I don't think your adding "because they don't want independence, never did" is a credible one, or helpful to the independence cause. It is just adding to all the voices trying to depress the independence vote.
Lurker - the sticking your head in the sand approach has got us to where we are now. Everything I said about the SNP on this blog since 2020 and Sturgeon's surrender speech in Jan 2020 has come true. I have had over 4 years of abuse and trolling for doing so but I think it is important to tell the truth. But people just want to keep voting for the same people who have lied and betrayed independence - amazing and surprising. I am continually astonished at how we are stuck in this situation.
DeleteYou say my opinion is not credible - I say once again they could have carried out a de facto Holyrood election in 2021 or 2022 or 2023. 2021 would have been the best when the vote would have been high. You ignore this point.
I am always amazed when people just keep on believing what politicians say even when all the evidence shows otherwise. Politicians words are cheap. It's what they do or don't do that is reality. Blackford said on many many occasions that Scotland would not be taken out of the EU against its will. What did he and the SNP do - nothing. Blackford is currently using his energy to promote SNP MPs joining the House of Lords in future. Is that an independent future for Scotland - of course not - charlatans.
You say I am adding to the voices trying to depress the independence vote - nope - wrong again - I have never advocated voting for any British state controlled party. You seem to think the SNP owns independence supporters votes - they don't. That is the same old time Labour approach.
You are shifting the argument again and again to other things; this is not about Sturgeon or Blackford.
DeleteI did not say you supported 'British' parties nor do I think any party owns anyone's votes.
I said your claim that the SNP "don't want independence, never did" is not a credible one, or helpful to the independence cause. I said that view - that the SNP don't want indy - is adding to all the voices trying to depress the independence vote.
But you could clarify very quickly and clearly on the key point. Should an indepndence supporter vote SNP in a constituency where there are no pro-independnece alternatives?
Lurker you say I am shifting the argument. Who are you to tell me what I can and not say in my argument. The fact is you have no answer to my points. You seem to want to control what anyone can say or who anyone can vote for. It is not for me to tell independence supporters who to vote for specifically. I do tell people if they are for independence do not vote for British state parties.
DeleteUpon reflection I was careless in my comment when I said " never did" - to make it clear I meant never did under Sturgeon's reign - 10 years and counting now.
I don't believe the SNP are pro independence under the control of Sturgeon's gang. Surprised this is news to you. I have been posting this for years on SGP. Where have you been?
In an election you have choices, in the coming general election the choice is the same old same old , either you vote for the bettertogether sheisters or you vote for Scottish independence, thats it , ALBA and the green party are wasted votes thats obvious very obvious , lets get one thing straight this is not about the SNP or nicola sturgeon or alex salmond this is about whether you want Scottish independence or are quite happy to see england take more control of Scotland SNP have their problems but so do Labour and the Conservatives and Lib Dems all those english unionist parties have been involved in corruption on a way higher scale that SNP and they have all had loads of their MPs dupmed or charged with sexual misconduct so before you go dumping the SNP because of murrell or sturgeon or salmond or missing money just remember the millions and millions your english politicians handed out to pals during covid only scotland gets the huge police investigations and court cases down in england where the amounts stolen are on a much higher scale nothing happens other than a few headlines in the papers.A vote for SNP is a vote for Scottish independence thats a given , you wont get your independence this year or next year even but a vote for Labour wont make you better off this year or next year either , a vote for Scottish independence over and over tells a message that its what we want meanwhile labour come labour go conservatives come conservatives go and your life doesnt change , it never will until Scotland makes its own decisions and handles and keeps its own resources and money.Terence Callachan Dundee
ReplyDeleteCome on Terence, give us a break. A paragraph break. That is another choice.
DeleteQuite agreed. Good arguments (mostly) in need of the occasional breather for the reader, via the Enter key. 😄
DeleteSo currently we have on SGP:
ReplyDelete1. A Britnat f*****t trolling.
2. A Britnat trolling.
3. Nasty WGD numpty and women assaulting Dr Jim trolling.
4. Assorted other moronic SNP/WGD supporting trolls.
5. Bloody robots posting artificial pish.
6. Murray's minions trolling - penny a line?
Still not as bad btl as in the days of that horror GWC 😀
I think you've missed some of us Anonymous footsoldiers making excellent insightful and undisputed points, not called out either as trolls or AI. ;-)
DeleteAnon at 5.37pm - you were missed out for that very reason. So I think you missed the point of the post - I was listing all the baddies that have turned up since James removed his moderation controls.
DeleteAre we the baddies? ;-)
Deleteof course, in the twisted fake IIS mindset in order for Scotland to move forward the unionist's must win. doesn't care about the people of Scotland
DeleteIFS.
DeleteAnon troll at 6.52pm - are you a category 4 troll or is Murray Foote paying you for your trolling? Come on don't be shy.
DeleteFemale aged 56 SNP member and activist since 1985 here. The blog is right. You need to be voting SNP. Did you think this fight would be easy when you joined it? Are you frustrated and annoyed? Are you hurt and offended? Well get this. So am I but I can still see that not getting Indy mps at this election will set our cause back. The SNP remains the most viable way of keeping our vision alive. It’s also the party with the best and fairest policies and also spoke out for Palestine. Not voting or voting unionist only means your dream of Indy is more likely to die. It means Starmer and Sunak and their successors win. And for a long time. Is that really what you want? Sit at home and moan online if you want. Or get out and help deliver the vote. I for one am not for giving up. I’ll defy the unionists now and every time I get a chance to be an activist…esp since the SNP policies are by far the sanest (bar the sideshow of gender). Refuse to vote and cry in your beer if you want. I and others intend to do the work anyway. We will win our independence *despite* you even if it’s a longer haul than you can handle. I’m hoping you can see the light but in the end you’re either up for this tough journey or you’re not. When we get it I will know I was part of it. If you want to remain a keyboard carper/hurt/offended/black affrontit …whatever that will be your choice but don’t for a minute claim you helped this movement from your chaise long with your smelling salts and drama. This is not a game. This is serious and this is hard. Perhaps too hard for some. But you have a choice. Use it or lose it as they say.
ReplyDeleteWell said
DeleteParagraph breaks are possible you know.
DeleteJust how long are you planning to live? You better hope medical advances allow you to live to 150 if want to be alive at independence with glacial Swinney in charge. It's hard alright and Sturgeon's gang are making it very hard indeed.
5.34: agree 100%. Exceptionally well argued post.
Deleteiis - quacks too much. Wants the unionists to win.
DeleteIFS.
DeleteDonald Duck Anon at 6.49pm - are you a category 4 or category 6. troll. In other words are you getting paid for your contributions?
DeleteIfS is right about you, dipshit troll. You're a dipshit until you prove yourself and make an argument.
DeleteAs for the 56 year old activist: best of luck on seeing 90 fit and hale. You'll need to, at this rate. Maybe the century!
DeleteI remember in 2010 that the SNP only won 6 out of 59 seats.
ReplyDeleteStrangely, after such a supposedly apocalyptic event for the independence movement, there was an indyref only 4 years later.
The SNP has become fat, lazy and useless. A bit of slimming down will make it fitter and healthier.
Don't be daft. Being on 6 when you previously had 48 is psychologically unrecognisable from what happened in 2010.
Delete2024 itself is psychologically unrecognisable to 2010 or 2014. The movement's in a miserable and rancorous state after so many years misuse.
DeleteSo you want brit parties to win in Scotland. Go away.
ReplyDeleteNo.
ReplyDeleteI don’t care about WM & i’m not voting for SNP anymore. The N in their party name stands for Nawbag.
I'm starting to feel apathetic myself if I'm honest.
DeleteBut I think it's time to give them a chance. It prob is my last. I want to vote for actual day to day policies as well as being blackmailed to independence.
"You are nothing without me, babe, NOTHING!"
DeleteEmotional blackmail is never pretty, and feeding it never wins.
So you are content to let the unionist / Brit nationalists win. Not sure why you bother to blog?
DeleteWhile all this makes for an entertaining debate, there is a much bigger problem than division and skepticism among us Yessers.
ReplyDeleteThe great majority of Scots who don’t put independence at the top of their priorities have grown impatient with the SNP’s rank incompetence as a party of government. The SNP is getting thumped for the same reason as the Tories will be: folk are tired of both them.
Honestly, look at what Scotgov has done since 2014, and especially this past year, and ask why would you support them if it weren’t for the national question? To most folk, indy isn’t the be all and end all of their vote. And to most folk, this Scottish government is past its sell by date.
DeleteI bring up Scotgov as yes, it matters even in a WM election that’s nominally just for the few dozen gravy slurpers we send to the palace on the Thames. Why? Because Scots as a whole are scunnered, even furious. They’ll not vote for this shower of a party, whatever parliament is written at the top of the ballot.
DeleteNobody will give a monkey's about the minutiae or nuances of the views of individual SNP MPs - if someone like Stewart McDonald loses his seat, it will be seen as confirming the narrative of a generational rejection of independence. If he holds his seat, it will be seen as calling that narrative into question and keeping the flame of independence alive.
ReplyDelete...
If you can't bring yourself to vote SNP for whatever reason, there will be other pro-independence parties like Alba and the Greens to choose from in some seats.
So which is it? There is an Alba candidate in Glasgow South. He has no chance of winning, so voting for him instead of Stewart McDonald increases the chance of the seat going to Labour. Your argument that nothing is more important than avoiding the narrative impact of such an event surely precludes voting for anyone but the SNP in any seat at all, except arguably East Lothian, Kirkcaldy, and the Western Isles.
To misquote Angus MacNeil, voting SNP in Glasgow South would appear to be best for independence, but of course that is using logic and sense. Using politics as I do, it’s vote Alba in Glasgow South of course.
DeleteAlba is not the party now that James and many joined as founding members. He's made his position clear, many times, that they really shouldn't be running candidates besides their two incumbent MPs.
DeleteAnd one of them - Kenny McAskill - isn't even going to run in the seat which he holds!
DeleteYeah, that seems truly daft to me. I like George Kerevan, but neither he nor Kenny stand a chance.
DeleteWell, he has an elected position within Alba, where he can make his case for change. That's a compelling platform. I know he was in the SNP previously, and made no secret about it on this blog, but I don't know how senior he was there.
DeleteThe SNP's internal democracy is a sore topic, as we all know. The party's snatched a lot of power away from its members. It's a much tougher nut to crack.
Anon at 8.40 (now deleted): I strongly suspect that's the second time you've posted a variation on the same comment. I know exactly what game you're playing, and you know exactly why I can't and won't allow it. Your characterisation of my position is completely wrong anyway, and you know that too.
DeleteThe bind created by the SNP. For which we all fell for time and time again. Is giving Indy supporters the 'Hobson's Choice'. Vote for us the SNP to preserve the mandate, the momentum or keep the Yoons out.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that is like forcing someone to take an inflated interest loan, because noone else is lending. It doesn't help the individual, the collective or their future. Because we all end up paying for the failure.
The SNP are not an independence party. They are not going to deliver independence. Voting SNP gives them a sense of entitlement to fanny about for another 5 years. Sure it means they can say to WM . Look Scotland still wants independence . We know it does. But that should not be tied to the SNP.
I will vote Alba if I can. But I will not vote for the corrupt SNP. This is a moral decision. I am not helping our cause if I help them stay in power. They are the road block to independence.
The UK Government is the 'roadblock to independence'. It will remain so, irrespective of whether it is Labour or Tory. Enabling Labour or Tory MPs to replace SNP ones at the General Election won't solve the 'roadblock', it will further entrench it.
DeleteBoth of you are right.
DeleteThe UK government is the ultimate obstacle to Scottish independence. But without a determined party of independence, with the popular will of the Scottish people behind it, the status quo can continue for generations to come.
I think we can all agree that the UK Government is the biggest roadblock to independence. But that's all the more reason why we should have moved on from the Section 30 approach by now.
DeletePart of the reason why the SNP have lost support and pro-indy people don't feel motivated to vote for them in the General Election is because their election strategy is just a reworded version of the previous one's we've already given them mandates for.
"If the SNP subsequently wins a majority of the seats at the General Election in Scotland, the Scottish Government is empowered to begin immediate negotiations with the UK Government to give democratic effect to Scotland becoming an independent country"
That "democratic effect" bit means asking for a referendum & we all know that the UK Government will dismiss that out of hand.
If we're expected to all come together and vote SNP to keep the independence dream alive wouldn't it be helpful if we also had something worth voting for to move the independence effort forward?
In the (implied) absence of a determined party of independence and/or the popular will of the Scottish behind it (or them), what then to do? Sit on our hands and watch British nationalist gains roll in?
DeletePeople fighting for their rights and freedoms around the world from positions of weakness resist with whatever meagre means they can, and however imperfect those means may be. (The poster at 5:34 put it, or a similar point, well.)
What would fit the description 'something worth voting for'?
Lots of good points made - any loss of pro-independence MPs (and that almost exclusively means SNP) will be pounced on and used as evidence that Scotland "doesn't want Independence" and give Westminster an excuse to reduce Holyrood powers, undermine the Scottish parliament and push back the very limited devolved powers we have.
ReplyDeleteIf Starmer abuses Scotland, though, he will stoke the flames of separatism (as his advisers would call it) or in other words: inflame more Scots desire for independence.
DeleteThis is where James and I differ. 2024 is not another 1979. Back then, indy and even devolution died because we had the hardest right wing Tory rule we'd ever seen come in, and devo just wasn't that popular here anyway. But 1999 and then 2014 transformed us. Independence isn't going away. The harder they fight it, the worse they treat us, the more Scots they will provoke.
(1997's devolution referendum, I mean. 1999 was when Holyrood started. The pace we went from easy Labour victories to SNP hegemony and indyref once the Scottish parliament started speaks volumes to another era of the SNP: when it clearly wanted independence. When those in charge really want something: deeds get done.)
DeleteHow many people here are persuadable? Or has everyone made up their minds? If balance of commenters on this blog is any way representative of former SNP voters then the outcome of the GE is easy to predict, but not to swallow.
ReplyDeleteBrian
For me it would require a radical shift in the SNPs election strategy and efforts being made to heal the divisions in the wider Yes movement.
DeleteBut with under 6 weeks to go I'd be really surprised if that happened.
I'd be astonished, too. I’m also persuadable, though. What it would take from Swinney to get me to vote SNP this July:
Delete1. Declaration that this election is a direct plebiscite election on Scottish independence, not just "a sign" or "message"
2. A full and formal plan for what happens in the case of an outright majority Yes vote
3. Welcome Alba, Alex Salmond, and every other cast-aside group from the Yes movement in an alliance to secure the vote for Yes
If he did all that, I'd be absolutely speechless. And you bet I'd vote SNP/Yes.
Do I expect any of it, though? No, I expect I'll have no one worth voting for, and the SNP will keep their heads buried and duly lose most their seats.
I think that people calling for partys to run single-issue election campaigns in Scotland haven't paused to think just how bad that would look to the general population at the moment. I think that the general attitude would be that they were uncaring about people's actual concerns, and had disappeared up their own arse.
DeleteThinking on this, one thing the first minister could do right now would be to repeal the Hate Crime Act and Public Order Act. This would be popular in its own right AND save money AND be good public policy - a rare treble.
ReplyDeleteA reset to Scottish politics is required to raise the debate above where it currently resides, is his leadership up to the task?
Brian
Didn’t it pass at Holyrood with a majority. Stop playing the right wing tories game.
DeleteThe HCA is trash and repealing it would be a good sign of sense in Bute House. A lot of stuff the SNP prioritised under late stage Nicola and Humza is guff, and only passed Holyrood because of that very attitude: "get it up the Tories."
DeleteWhat do the Tories matter? This isn't the Get it up the Tories Parliament. This is the SCOTTISH Parliament. Acts become the laws that Scots must live by. It's not a peurile student talk-shop.
Of course Starmer will pounce on any SNP loss of face. Saying Scotland has rejected independence All unionists do this, because they are not Democrats. The thing they believe in " The Union' usurps democracy itself.
ReplyDeleteBut on the other hand. Giving the SNP another mandate won't actually move us forward. Because they have no will to contest WM's veto. Madness is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
The SNP arent even doing a good job in government. Some of their policies are hair brained. So the only unifier is belief in independence. But because that is now debateable the yes voters are struggling to put pen to paper.
In truth, most of us are thoroughly scunnered with all politicians.
"won't actually move us forward" - but it could hold our position, rather than being knocked back. For years, minority causes have repeatedly voted doggedly for their cause, despite being a minority. That is not madness, it is resilience in the face of the odds.
Delete"because that is now debateable" - who says? There's a lot of loose talk, it seems successfully, sewing seeds of doubt on this point. In some cases, on internet sites by anonymous voices, who could be playing us all.
Anon's right, Lurker. There's been no fight in the SNP since Brexit at all. If they wanted to contest London's veto, they would. Instead they nodded it all on by.
DeleteAnons at 1022 and 1158.
DeleteAlmost convincing, but your union jacks are showing. Try harder next time to get a prize from Baroness Baillie and Sir Starmer.
'Awa and bile yer heid, KC.
DeleteYou'll see how many of us abstain in this election. The slump in turnout will be there for all to see. Scotland was energised by indyref and turnout stayed sky high here until the SNP's mask slipped. Promises promises are only good for so long. Eventually, people's patience and belief runs out.
Dinnae fash yersel with blog comment wars. Just watch the figures on July 4th. It'll be there in black and white, right across Scotland. We're scunnered.
It seems the Brit Nats tactics particularly labour is to try and encourage Independence voters from voting at this election. No harm, but when I see Sarwar, Jackie Baillie and co grinning away , hell will freeze over before I Let them win. So so called independence supporters are you really wanting this shower to have more seats than SNP ?
ReplyDeleteATTN: Britnats pretending to be independence supporters and claiming they aren't voting SNP in an attempt to make waverers believe it's a mass movement.
DeletePlease try to be more convincing in your disillusionment with the SNP. Thank you.
It's a zero sum game, aye. The SNP's losses will be the Brits' gains.
DeleteBut it's a zero interest contest for many of us. Those SNP MPs have done NOTHING for Scotland or independence. Just their bank accounts and waistlines.
ATTN: Teeny Bash. Your handle stinks of KC 😉
DeleteKC and the Sunshine Band?
DeleteKeep it coming, love.
KC gets his trolling kicks out of pretending to be an independence supporter - he once was Tartan Tam. Is he now Teeny Bash? Well are you Teeny?
DeleteNot voting to be clearer. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of the people of Rutherglen who abstained and let Labour win the by-election on their rump of the vote?
DeleteI sympathise with them. They had a shite election, brought on before it was due by eijit politics, and they had a shite choice on their plate. No wonder they stayed at home. I would have, too.
If you doubt everyone's credibility because you disagree with their opinion. Then you are not thinking objectively.
ReplyDeleteYou cannot accuse people who don't like the SNP of being unionist. I was a 30 year member. But I am not a dumb sheep who votes SNP regardless of the evidence.
The final straw for me was Sturgeon's performance in the Salmond enquiry. It was an act of utter betrayal.
She is gone but the SNP are still run by the same cultists who followed her evangelicaly.
She is not gone.
DeleteI know what you mean. Accusations of unionism are thrown around on here like confetti at anyone who expresses criticism of today's SNP. I myself have been called a liar and a 'Britnat' despite having voted for the SNP for over 30 years. The fact is there is a serious decline in the SNP vote share as evidenced by the polls James brings us for analysis. Support for independence is holding up but that isn't reflected in support for the SNP and that's why the party loyalists are lashing out. They know that the game is up and the fault lies with Sturgeon's disastrous time in charge which saw the party abandon independence as its primary goal.
DeleteAs Swinney protects his pal and fellow member of Sturgeon's gang from his punishment for wrongdoing people should reflect on the reality in the rest of society where if someone had done what Mathieson had done they would possibly be in front of the polis and sacked from employment. If it was a benefit claim they would most definately be in court. Yet Yousaf and the WGD numpties supported him. It seems there is a mentality in some of the SNP that if someone carries out wrongdoing but they are SNP then it disnae count.
DeleteAlso it is unbelievable that Beattie and Sturgeon are not suspended from the SNP and it shows as the poster at 1.31am says " she is not gone ". Sturgeon suspended Michelle Thomson for years for something in which there was no evidence, no polis investigation. One set of rules for Sturgeon and her gang and another set for others.
Yup your right here James, petty acts of self destruction and anger by individuals are just setting us all back.
ReplyDeleteThey SNP and Greens and the whole independence movement has had to deal with the sneaky unlimited power of the British establishment undermining it for a very long time, undermining it at levels that these self important commenters cannot imagine.
It's extremely difficult to operate and aim for your ultimate goal when your up against that, and the SNP and independence movement deserves credit for getting this far ahead when you've got so much working against you
I have voted SNP for years and years but now because of SNP failure to move independence forward i wont vote for SNP.
ReplyDeleteI have voted SNP for years but because of SNP corruption i wont vote for them anymore.
I dont like Sturgeon , i dont like Salmond , I dont like Yousaf , i dont like Swinney so i wont vote for SNP anymore.
I dont like the bottle returns policy , i dont like the gender policy so i wont vote SNP.
Have you ever heard such a load of absolute nonsense as this kind of stuff that we see constantly online on sites such as this one , the childish minds that are taken in by the propaganda in newspapers , BBC news , SKY news etc that we all know is controlled ultimately by Westminster , people are fickle.
What i would like to see is the writers of all the Scottish independence blogs come together and lay out a constitution of sorts so that we can have some form of Scottish independence discussion that is not dragged down by the continual negativity of hopelessness that is usually spawned from the newspapers or BBC or SKY , or Question Time , they all manage to keep to their script of Scotland too stupid too poor too small , why cant we keep to our script ?
We cant keep to our script because we dont have one.
We are always firefighting the britnat script or bickering with each other i blame the blogs such as this one they just cant team up , they all want to be separate entities competing with each other for the most readers , always trying to come up with the special headline ahead of each other , what a shame , theyre in the same trap as the SNP and ALBA.
I say to these bloggers and to ALBA and SNP set you pride aside and team up with each other , communicate with each other openly , constructively , so we the people can see you doing it , do it for the people , for Scotland , for Scottish independence .
Terence Callachan Dundee
"I say to these bloggers and to ALBA and SNP set you pride aside and team up with each other , communicate with each other openly , constructively , so we the people can see you doing it , do it for the people , for Scotland , for Scottish independence"
DeleteIt can't be said that Alba haven't tried though.
They advocated for a Constitutional Convention to unite the Yes movement since Day 1, #SNP1Alba2 in the 2021 Scottish Parliament election, 'Vote until you drop' in the Council elections, didn't stand in the Rutherglen and Hamilton West By-election, offered to work with Humza Yousaf to save his job after the Greens threw a hissy fit & they pushed 'Scotland United' for the upcoming General Election to an incredibly excessive extent.
There's only so many times an olive branch can be slapped away until you start thinking the SNP simply aren't interested in healing the divisions in the Yes movement.
I was following you up to "i blame the blogs such as this one". The blog post you are responding to is literally urging people to put aside their differences and vote for a pro indy candidate. I think you could have a case about some other blogs but not this one. It is one of few where there is enough difference of opinion to allow for reasoned debate and not just entrenched opinion.
DeleteTerence - first the positive comment. Happy you took my advice and used paragragh breaks.
DeleteAs Scott says above, multiple olive branches have been forwarded to the SNP and rejected. They also did the dirty on their partners the Greens. Yousaf was told to chuck his job as FM because he dared to arrange a meeting with Ash Regan. The SNP are not interested in unity they believe they own independence votes. They are the problem.
you need to vote for an Indy supporting party and in a fptp election, it has to be the SNP, no faffing around with the wee parties, no ifs but or mibbies, it's the SNP.
ReplyDeleteIn a Holyrood election you can cast your 2nd vote for 1 of the wee parties, but that's for laters.
I wonder if these same arguments about holding your nose and voting SNP. Were employed by unionists telling Labour supporters to vote Tory to keep the SNP out in 2017.
ReplyDeleteWe accused Labour supporters of being Red Tories , and morally bankrupt for doing this. Yet we are being told to vote SNP because on paper they are Nationalist. On paper because in reality they are devolutionists in their actions.
Returning 40 SNP mps will change nothing. They already have 48.
I'd argue it's more like when Labour were the dominant party in Scotland and they didn't need to give any reason to vote for them except for "Vote for us as we're the only viable option to keep out the Tories".
DeleteNow we're at the stage where all that's left with the SNP is "Vote for us as we're the only viable option for independence".
I agree with James we need to vote for Independence. In Caithness Sutherland and Easter Ross we have a close contest between Lucy Beatty SNP and Jamie Stone (of Destiny) Libdem. And now I am told Alba is standing a candidate. To me it seems as though this may well cost the SNP the seat.
ReplyDeleteLucy is young, intelligent, local, honest and heavily involved in rural affairs. Jamie Stone is old and has a long track record of being stupid. The latest is he wants one of the UK's much touted modular nuclear reactors to be installed in Dounreay. Unfortunately for him the owners of the site have just said that it will be cleaned up and ready for another use in 313 years!
How is Alba standing a candidate here going to help?
Some questions:
ReplyDelete1. Is independence a good thing?
2. Does the SNP have a credible strategy for independence?
3. Does the SNP want independence?
4. Should independence supporters vote for SNP?
For independence supporters let's assume the answer to 1 as given, Yes.
The current state of debate, and current blog post is mainly about question 4. Much of the argument is about trying to convince people who would answer No to questions 2 and 3, to vote for SNP, at least in cases where there is no other pro-indy candidate.
But those who argue that the SNP are not even pro-indy are I think unhelpful or even corrosive to the cause.
Independence supporters are already fighting against those who are against or unconvinced about independence, and it seems that it would be more helpful for genuine independence supporters to be out there making the case of independence to the undecided, or coming up with an alternative credible strategy for independence, (ie to help turn Nos into to Yeses on questions 1 and 2) that trying to give independence supporters reasons not to vote.
As far as I have seen (happy to be corrected), the Alba strategy is that all Alba, SNP, ISP etc votes should be counted towards an overall pro-indy mandate. That implies voting SNP if there is no other pro indy candidate. If that is good enough for Alba, then it seems good enough for any independence supporter.
"The Alba strategy is that all Alba, SNP, ISP etc votes should be counted towards an overall pro-indy mandate".
DeleteIndeed, the only way to move the independence cause forward is to prove that a majority of Scots want it, and that can only be done at the ballot box with over 50% of the voting electorate clearly indicating that they want independence.
But the SNP rejected that strategy at their Party Conference and it's a difficult task to ask pro-indy supporters to get onboard with the SNP's strategy when they believe it won't change anything.
"Indeed, the only way to move the independence cause forward is to prove that a majority of Scots want it, and that can only be done at the ballot box with over 50% of the voting electorate clearly indicating that they want independence."
DeleteSo that implies voting for the SNP where they are the only pro indy candidate.
I don't understand or see the need for adding "But the SNP..."
You don't need to get on board the SNP strategy. You'd be voting SNP to fulfil the Alba strategy of maximising the pro-indy vote.
The strategy is kinda contingent on all pro-indy parties getting onboard with it otherwise it's meaningless. For any realistic chance of reaching over 50% a coordinated campaign would be required.
DeleteWe would also need to know that if we actually reached over 50% of the vote what would happen next. Without the reassurance that something would actually happen afterwards it would be a waste of time.
DeletePerhaps someone from Alba can provide answers to posts at 9.21 and 9.27.
DeleteFor the purposes of my argument, it is sufficient that Alba have the strategy, which (a) recognises SNP as a pro-indy party and (b) that is it worth voting for SNP to maximise the pro indy vote (i.e. even if you believe the answer to question 2 is No, that needn't stop answering Yes to questions 3 and 4.)
It is ALBA's position that the independence movement in Scotland needs a united and comprehensive approach to bending the Westminster Parliament to the will of the Scottish people.
DeleteThe ALBA Party believes that every single election should be used to seek a mandate to begin negotiations for independence, not just another mandate for a referendum. The threshold would be a simple majority of votes cast for all pro-independence parties. ALBA is committed to having an explicit declaration of our intent to begin negotiations for independence, if that threshold is met, on the first line of our manifesto. All pro-independence parties should do the same.
We believe that the next UK General Election should be fought under a "Scotland United for Independence" banner. The key to winning is to attract a substantial cadre of Labour independence supporters who would be unlikely to switch to the SNP in a straight-party contest.
The focus should then be on how the Westminster Government can be forced into independence negotiations. This would involve a combination of:
• Parliamentary Action, where MPs should intervene in the Westminster Parliament on a daily basis to grind all business in that parliament to a halt.
• Popular Action, to remind Westminster and the wider international community that the independence movement is not willing to meekly return to the shadows.
• International Pressure, enlisting international sympathy and support, paving the way for recognition of an independent State.
• Legal Action, as over 50% of the voting electorate clearly indicating that Scots want independence would be a significant change to the status quo, opening the door to other legal avenues we can pursue.
Thanks for the response. I think 2 and 3 are already happening to an extent. 1 should have been happening for years but SNP MP’s lack the courage to do it. 4 is hugely problematic, and it is essential we can show a majority vote for Indy before legal routes can be considered. There is no easy way. Fighting among factions, and the vitriol and hatred that is evident from some prolific posters on here, makes it all the more difficult.
DeleteLurkerNoMore May 27, 2024 at 8:30 AM.
DeleteI think you dance around the fundamental question, which you have been in denial about since day one, that any referendum and it terms and timing is set by Westminster, and whatever doubt you had about that Sturgeon completely removed with the Supreme Court case.
Its in the hands of Westminster alone and you seem in denial about that unless you are arguing for an undemocratic route to independence which would likely see the SNP banned as a party and its leaders put in jail for misuse of public office.
And then you have the problem that you have no mandate to refer to, because most of the polling shows that you regularly fall short of 50% support on the indy question and therefore there is no sustained majority for it that you can demonstate.
Equally an election of 50%+1 for Indy parties is not a proven mandate unless its well past 50% because
1) How do you prove that everyone who voted SNP did so for independence and not for other manifesto commitments?
2) How do you prove that those who voted Green voted for independence and not other green policies.
The simple conflation of a vote for a party is not a guarantee that it supports any single policy, and it may be just for governance of Scotland or because you think other parties potential governance would be worse.
So a 50%+ vote for Indy parties is not a CLEAR mandate for independence unless its well past 50%.
And then, like Brexit polling it frequently varies over the years, its been as high as 65% to leave and as low as 30% going back to the 70's, can you demonstrate a sustained clear majority over time?
And then again, you don't know what independence will be like on a range of critical issues like borders, trade, the EU, currency, debt, borrowing requirements, borrowing interest rates, state pensions etc etc.
What you need is a negotiated divorce settlement from the UK so you can show people what the reality would be, then you might have a chance.
Last time they told you it would all be based on oil revenue, that's now out the window or are you throwing you supposed green credentials out the window and do a Trump with "Drill baby drill"?
So the plan you sold in 2014 is now demonstrably out of the window, so what confidence would the population have in a new fantasy manifesto for independence?
The first step to independence is a majority vote for independence. The SNP refused to facilitate this under Sturgeon's gang for the last 10 years. Where is the evidence it will happen under Sturgeon's gang in the next 10 years?
DeleteThat's the problem - not posters btl on a blog.
I think the biggest issue is that pro-indy parties simply aren't talking to each other. Alba was laughed at and ridiculed for advocating the 'Scotland United' strategy and no one seems to be interested in the Constitutional Convention they've called for since Day 1 of their existence.
DeleteI can understand the anger at the SNP, the annoyance at the instance that we all just need to unite behind the SNP without question or cooperation with the wider Yes movement and the feeling that if we did all Vote SNP it wouldn't change anything anyway.
"What you need is a negotiated divorce settlement from the UK so you can show people what the reality would be, then you might have a chance."
DeleteAny how exactly do we get the UK Government to enter into those negotiations prior to a vote taking place?
p.s. When I say "coming up with an alternative credible strategy for independence", this could mean, for example, explaining how it would help to see the SNP vote crash, and how and over what time period we could expect renewal within the SNP or the emergence of another party to become a credible political force that could win power or win independence, in any reasonably foreseeable timescale.
ReplyDeleteA problem is that many of the unionists posting here are masquerading as Alba supporters or disillusioned SNP voters, and that some readers might fall for their shtick. It's not the first time.
DeleteStevie, sure, that may be the case, and certainly many posts on here are indistinguishable from unionist arguments.
DeleteI guess I'm suggesting that especially in an election period where something is imminently at stake, it would be better if independence supporters focused on the case of independence, and credible strategies to get there, rather than saying why this or that party or person is bad, why their strategy is rubbish and reasons not to vote for them or not vote at at all.
Aye. KC it's not your first time is it.
DeleteLurkerNoMore - If you were the SNP leadership, what would your "credible" plan be for independence?
DeleteBecause to me, after the Supreme Court case, there is no credible path to another referendum except for asking Westminster, and they will just keep saying no, its a once in a generation vote.
What's going on in western Isles btw? Get mcneill back under the snp banner
ReplyDeleteHamas are terrorists but the IDF are not according to the UK. Vote for Sunak or Starmer and you have blood on your hands.
ReplyDeleteThe IDF seem to have been unable to consider that if you carry out a " precise strike" in amongst tents closely located to each other that a firestorm could result. Aye right - they did it on purpose. Hamas and the IDF both murdering savages. Netanyahu and the IDF hold no moral high ground. The IDF excuse for bombing buildings was there are tunnels underneath. Now they bomb tents - no tunnels underneath them.
Twice, I have agreed with you. getting worried
ReplyDeleteWhat - you are turning in to a decent person and it is starting to annoy you.
DeleteOf course it changes nothing, do you have some notion that you live in any kind of democracy that the government of England recognises ?
ReplyDeleteVoting SNP tells England that Scotland doesn't want to be a part of their empire, voting for any other party doesn't count as anything at all except it tells England that Scotland is disunited and that's exactly what England wants to see
What do you think they're paying folk like Alex Salmond to do?
It's his job to split Scottish votes so they don't count then he gets his peerage as an independent in the house of lords
Salmond can't continue to crowd fund cash from punters to keep himself going, they'll begin to notice