Saturday, July 1, 2023

The incompatibility between NATO membership and signing the treaty banning nuclear weapons is actually a golden opportunity for the SNP to get themselves off the NATO hook

It's not often that one of the unionist usual suspects on Twitter makes me grudgingly say "good point", but that happened a week or two back when it was pointed out that Humza Yousaf was using coded language to shield anti-nuclear Yes supporters from the fact that the SNP government do not intend that an independent Scotland should sign the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons.  He apparently said that Scotland would join NATO on the same basis that Finland recently joined - which is indirectly getting at the fact that Finland started opposing the treaty in line with NATO wishes, having previously abstained in the relevant UN votes.  

It was also suggested (and I don't know whether this is true or not) that Alyn Smith attacked the treaty more directly, saying "a piece of paper isnae going to keep us safe".  If so, and just as an aside, could I appeal to all politicians and political activists to stop abusing our wonderfully expressive Scots language by only switching to it when they want to make a particularly stupid point that they know they can't justify through rational argument.  It's like: "How do we bypass the voters' adult intelligence to win us a hearing on this one?  I know, let's switch to Scots, and then they'll all revert to childhood."

My own view is that the existence of the relatively new treaty is a golden opportunity for the SNP to get out of the mess of trying to oppose nuclear weapons and support NATO membership simultaneously, which is practically a contradiction in terms given that NATO largely exists to extend the so-called American nuclear "deterrent" to European countries who join up.  The SNP was traditionally anti-NATO to maintain consistency with the anti-nuclear policy, but got cold feet in the run-up to the 2014 referendum due to polls showing overwhelming support for NATO membership.  But here's the thing - polls also now show substantial support for the nuclear ban treaty.  I asked that question myself in one of the polls I commissioned for Scot Goes Pop - 

Scot Goes Pop / Panelbase poll, 21st-26th April 2021:

Nuclear weapons were banned by an international treaty that came into force in January this year.  However, the nine countries that are currently believed to possess nuclear weapons, including the UK, have so far refused to sign the treaty. Do you think the UK should join the treaty and dismantle its nuclear weapons?  

Yes: 47%
No: 33%

With Don't Knows removed -

Yes 59%
No 41%

If the public start to understand that there's an either/or choice here, and that they can't have both the things they want (ie. NATO membership and signing the treaty) they might start to be a bit more forgiving towards a political party or government that rejects NATO membership for the specific reason that it wants to join the treaty.  It would be interesting to see a poll in which a straight choice is presented to respondents to see what they regard as more important.  If I ever commission another poll in the future, I might ask that question (assuming no-one does it before me).

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I launched the Scot Goes Pop fundraiser for 2023 a few weeks ago, and the running total has now passed £1800.  The target figure is £8500, however, so there's still quite some distance to travel.  If you'd like to help Scot Goes Pop continue by making a donation, please click HERE.  Many thanks to everyone who has donated so far.

31 comments:

  1. I agree that there is an inherent contradiction between NATO membership and opposing nuclear weaponry.

    A more consistent approach would be becoming a member of the Partnership for Peace at the same time as supporting the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons.

    The on-going war in Ukraine has had an impact on relations and some countries, like Finland as you say, have converted recently to NATO membership.

    But like Ireland we would then be genuinely neutral and nobody could consider us to be hypocritical saying we're against nukes whist sheltering under their protection at the same time.

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  2. Living within a handful of miles of Faslane and Coulport means that this issue always figures large. Some sort of retreat from the anti nuclear position of the 2014 campaign has been rumbling at the top of the SNP at least since then.
    Individually I'd prefer indy Scotland to be non nuclear and neutral but with the world as it is we'd never win a 'popular democratic vote' on that basis.
    I hope it's the only one but I think I've buried my head in the sand on this issue.
    The social democratic 'flavour' of indy Scotland which was so apparent in 2014 also seems to have drifted away into gender radicalism and self serving careerism.
    I presently stagger on as a non party 'Yesser' but I think that if 'nuclear accepting' Scotland run by smug salary takers, with contempt for the rest of us, becomes the norm then it really will become time to 'hang up my guns'. I'm a self determinationist, not a nationalist. Indy Scotland for it's own sake is no good to me - it has to be a vehicle for doing things better for the majority and especially the economically persecuted.
    I spent 40+ years voting Labour as a slightly lesser evil when I lived in England....surely it's not going to come to that again - especially with the miserable, reactionary Starmer ?
    Ending my political days voting SNP as slightly less bad is deeply unattractive.

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    Replies
    1. Independence means the freedom to choose our own direction, forever. Dependence, in Britain, deprives us the right to ever choose change.

      Democracy is a process, not a once in a lifetime event.

      Delete
  3. Would Scotland be in a strong negotiating position with NATO? If we reject the nuclear base but make it clear that we back NATO’s aims they would certainly want us in, due to Scotland’s strategic location.

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  4. For what it's worth, I've found support for Nato membership among people I know surged when Russia invaded Ukraine, and has stayed solid since. The indy-curious, mostly Edinburgh based, No/Remainers I know are nearly all ardently pro-Nato. But about half of them are also favourable to nuclear disarmament. The others vary on whether an independent nation should really be hosting another nation's nukes, and one believes all Nato members are required to host American warheads like it or not. I’m quite sure that's not the case but people Want to Believe.

    I myself would order the Indy / Europe / Nato list in order of preference like this:

    1. Independence + EU membership + Nato membership
    2. Independence + EU membership no Nato membership
    3. Independence + EFTA membership…

    Etc, etc, as Independence outweighs all other objectives. The others are all questions for a free Scotland, which can be revisited at any time future generations choose. Yes, I’m strongly pro-EU and middlingly pro-Nato, but I'd gladly see Scotland take the Norwegian route, too. Just not sure much of Edinburgh or the switcher vote would be up for it.

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    1. I would say that analysis is spot on.
      This then requiries, as with Independence itself, to have leading Yes campaigners and, for the SNP/current Scottish Government to have absolute clarity about their offer/proposition, come a de facto/plebiscite election or referendum.

      As with the independence offer itself, bluff and smoke and mirrors just won't cut it. Be clear, be bold and set out the case to persuade those 5-10% of undecideds (and those disenchanted activists) that we need to get over the line.

      Delete
  5. In an ideal world I'd like us to be neutral and have no nuclear weapons but unfortunately the world we live in is far from ideal and under the current circumstances I'm happy that we are NATO members. I'm not exactly delighted that there are nuclear weapons on Scottish soil but I'm not going to be a nimby about it. I would not be so happy however for an independent Scotland to host nuclear weapons if they were not 'ours'.

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    Replies
    1. Not be an nimby ? With WMDs less than 30 miles from our largest city ? Sure.

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  6. Personal view: would prefer to stay after independence in NATO and ally with other defence partners including France, UK, US. Either that or we would truly need to expand our military spending a lot in order not to be vulnerable/weak.

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  7. Commonweal's "How to start a new country" is a good reference point for this issue.
    https://commonweal.scot/shop/publications/a-short-guide-to-starting-a-new-country/

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  8. It's Just Not Cricket

    Back from holiday and what do I see in the English media. The Aussies beat them at cricket and the English are giving it big licks about integrity, fair play, decency etc etc. Whinging hypocritical poms that's what they are.

    The English like to portray themselves as these honourable people who would never do any wrong to anyone. Unfortunately for the English lots of countries know otherwise. The English had more colonies than any other European country and certainly did not treat them honourably. This continues to this day in N. Ireland and Scotland. It's just not cricket you know. England take your nuclear weapons back home.

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  9. The Scottish Nat si Gov are supporters of the USA led NATO aggression towards Russia. Socialism is now dead and buried in Scotland.

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  10. A question for the WGD and Sturgeon supporting numpties.

    Why did the SNP let their own President Mike Russell prattle on about using a horsebox to campaign in Indyref2 when they had a luxurious motorhome which they have said was to be used for campaigning?

    I have no idea what the SNP said or agreed ( if anything ) about independence during their conference. They are all full of shit. Beats me how anyone can take them serious about independence after all their lies and broken promises. The membership had the chance of a fresh start when electing a new leader and went for more of the same lies and broken promises.

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  11. For anyone who might be wondering after reading a load of rubbish elsewhere, if ferries stopped sailing from Lochboisdale for a decade before 2013, Wayback would have been their friend if people were interested in truth rather than blaming islanders for complaining their ferries have been cancelled because of an unfair matrix. Here's one from 2010:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20101007225628/http://www.calmac.co.uk/Timetables/summer-south-uist--oban-lochboisdale.pdf

    We are not going to gain Independence while the Truth is buried in attempts to show the Scottish Government and the SNP are blameless and it's some mysterious plot by the media to undermine them. Talk about spin and paranoia. And yes, the media is biased. But seriously, I don't understand the willingness to believe a lie rather than seek out the truth.

    And the Truth shall set us free. Lies and spin keep us in the infernal Union because voters aren't thick.

    I despair.

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  12. Oh, and happy Independence day. When will we celebrate ours?

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    Replies
    1. It's WOS you should be on, he's a Tory too

      Delete
    2. By an amazing coincidence, someone penned this on WGD earlier on:

      "I much prefer not to read your shite over on the Scot goes Plop alternative universe blog."

      Wasn't you was it Alex?

      Delete
    3. LOL. Lomax, the troll who dares not speak his name.

      Delete
    4. No, not that one. A 7 year-old Alex, whose ad hominem post has actually been moderated out.

      Delete
  13. The Survation poll released today has it Y47/N53. However it has quite a large up weight to the 65+. If that didn't happen it would be about 50/50.

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  14. Good to see that there are some people in Edinburgh today who are not Royal grovellers. There is nothing like the Scottish type of Royal groveller. They worship and grovel before a royal from another country. Pathetic people.

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  15. Poor old Bathtub Admiral is not Ferry popular with his fellow WGD numpties these days. The Admiral is a bit slow on the uptake if he thinks the numpties on WGD want to hear the truth or any facts that do not worship Sturgeon and her SNP gang.

    No doubt the Admiral is in Edinburgh today worshipping and grovelling before his English Royal betters. Plenty Union flags will be flying, lots of English accents and other foreign accents will be heard in the crowds and lots of British service personnel will be seen.

    Not my king not my armed services.

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    Replies
    1. He just whatsapped me asking what you did with his bright shiny new sword?

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    2. Well Admiral if you are in contact with charlieboy you could ask him if he loves Scotland and the Scots so much why did he knowingly fly up to Scotland with covid from England probably infecting more people with Covid than a certain SNP MSP and why was he not charged by the polis like Ferrier. You could also ask him if he enjoyed his many outings with Jimmy Saville.

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    3. Good grief, another whatsapp on the "itsjustchuck" group. He asks if you can return the sword so the two of you can play pin the tail on the donkey like the last time you two were together. He says as long as he gets to pin the tail. I've no idea what that means.

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    4. The Bathtub Admiral clearly demonstrating his multi tasking skills by playing with his toy warships in his bath, popping magic mushrooms and listening to YMCA's hit song In The Navy.

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    5. Darn, must have wiped the electrical tape off the camera on my laptop last time I cleaned it. And magically reconnected the Mike.

      Delete
  16. Somehow I doubt the carry on in Edinburgh will be shown in England. The English would find it unacceptable that their English king is vowing under god to serve the people of Scotland.

    Who would have thought that in the capital of Scotland a Muslim First Minister would be reading passages from the bible in St Giles cathedral in a service dedicated to an English king. The statue of Knox was probably shaking with rage. It's all a load of religious bollocks but the music is good.

    The Humanist says we are all equal while attending a service for an English king - unsurprisingly Charlie boy disnae agree with him You couldnae make this stuff up.

    I wonder if any of the Dukes/Duchesses of Rothesay have ever been to Rothesay or was it a problem because Sturgeon couldnae guarantee the ferry would be on.

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  17. Top BBC groveller Sally Magnusson says she is sure charlleboy would have found it all very moving. Personally, I think his face reminds me of what Irish golf commentator once said of Scottish golfer Colin Montgomerie that "he looks like he is chewing a wasp".

    Minor BBC groveller Martin gets the role of interviewing grovellers who try to convince the viewers that charlieboy and his missus are really Scottish - aye right.

    No surprise that Lady Dorian plays a part and blasts out god save the king with great gusto. Can any independence supporter expect a fair trial in her court? Even old Tory Baroness Goldie gets to say how great charlieboy is.

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  18. The BBC's Rebecca Curran says the crowds thronged along the Royal Mile. STV news showed that the turnout for charlieboy was modest by broadcasting aerial shots of the crowd with parts of the route empty of anybody. The BBC did its best to create the impression the crowds were substantial.
    Of course the British State propaganda broadcaster could have shown the pictures of massive crowds at the independence marches in Edinburgh but chose not to.

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