Sunday, May 28, 2023

If even the poorer poll results are lulling SNP MPs into a false sense of security, we have a major problem on our hands

By choosing a leader who is so unpopular with the public, the SNP have condemned us to an Alice Through The Looking Glass world where bad polls for the SNP are arguably good, and good polls are arguably bad.  The reason?  Bad results in polls might just wake senior people in the party up to the uncomfortable reality that they need to replace Humza to have a realistic chance of avoiding defeat in next year's general election, whereas good (or passable) results in polls lull them into a false sense of security and we all continue drifting helplessly towards the iceberg.  There was a frankly terrifying piece in The National a few days ago in which anonymous SNP MPs reacted to a projection from YouGov showing that almost half of them are on course to lose their seats with "zen-like calm", by muttering "meh", and (worst of all) by saying they need to "keep the heid".  That gives you some sense of just how catastrophic the polling evidence would need to be in order to inject a sense of realism.  A possible explanation is that SNP MPs played a key role in the very recent mistake (electing Humza) that has led directly to their plight, so at this stage it's psychologically impossible for them to admit to the depth of the hole they're in, because that would mean admitting to themselves why they're in it.

In spite of the very obvious decoupling in recent weeks between Yes support and SNP support in polls, suggesting that the Yes vote is remaining strong in spite of what the SNP are doing and not because of it, we saw the other day the first signs of how good polls for Yes, just like decent polls for the SNP, can have a negative side-effect by being used to shore up Humza's position.  That certainly does not mean, incidentally, that we should start wishing for poor Yes results in polls - quite the reverse, in fact, we desperately need a strong Yes vote for Humza's successor to inherit.  But The National's front page about the Ipsos poll putting Yes ahead by 53% to 47% featured a photo of a smiling Humza, which could be interpreted in two ways - either a) that the poll was good news for Humza, as indeed it was for him and for other pro-indy leaders like Alex Salmond and Patrick Harvie, or b) that Yes were doing well because of Humza.  Needless to say, the man himself preferred the latter interpretation, and tweeted a screenshot of the front page as an indirect boast.  One of his supporters followed his example and added "the whole independence movement needs to get full-square behind this man" - the implication being that Humza had got us to 53% without our wholehearted support, so just imagine what he could do if we were behind him.  Predictably, there were also some nods to Humza's "sustained supermajority" nonsense, with exhortations to "get the Yes vote even higher", as if the masterplan was working and the independence vote was building nicely under Humza's watch.

Let's be brutally honest - that narrative is complete tripe.  The Ipsos poll was a horror show for Humza, showing the SNP vote has dropped ten points on Westminster voting intentions, and eight points on Holyrood voting intentions.  And the independence vote was actually down as well, albeit thankfully by a much more modest three points.  You could look at that in one of two ways - you could say that independence support is essentially unchanged, and that the three point drop is just margin of error noise, in which case Humza hasn't been able to do the same damage to the Yes vote that he's done to the SNP's own vote.  Or you could say that the three point drop for Yes is real, in which case perhaps Humza has done some damage to Yes, but it hasn't been anything like as severe as what he's done to the SNP.  But either way, there is clearly no basis in fact for the belief that Humza's leadership has led to a boost for Yes.

As far as the SNP are concerned, it's true that they were starting from a higher base with Ipsos than they were with other polling firms, and thus the sharp drop in their vote still leaves them with a decent cushion over Labour if Ipsos are to be believed.  It's also true that there is no good reason for leaping to the conclusion that other firms are more accurate than Ipsos.  But I would just note that, around two weeks before polling day in the 2017 election, Ipsos conducted a poll that overestimated the SNP's eventual lead over Labour by no less than six percentage points, and their lead over the Tories by ten percentage points.  That may have happened due to a late swing against the SNP that the poll was too early to pick up, or there may have been a big methodological error, or Ipsos may have been missing a disproportionately high abstention rate among SNP supporters.   But none of those explanations offer any comfort to the SNP in the here and now, because they could all apply again this time around.  In particular, the danger of SNP supporters staying at home is arguably even more severe than it was in 2017, due to the leadership abandoning all plans to win independence, thus leaving people with no easily discernible reason for voting SNP in a Westminster ballot (unless they feel particularly strongly about the trans issue or glass bottles).

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I launched the Scot Goes Pop fundraiser for 2023 a couple of weeks ago, and the running total has now passed £1450.  The target figure is £8500, however, so there's still quite some distance to travel.  If you'd like to help Scot Goes Pop continue by making a donation, please click HERE.  Many thanks to everyone who has donated so far.

22 comments:

  1. If the SNP can’t command a pro-independence majority (with or without other parties) at Holyrood then the Yes vote percentage is irrelevant.
    Obviously a “de-facto” referendum bypasses that, but ironically would, in itself, produce a pro-Indy majority at Holyrood anyway if over the magic 50%.

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    1. Exactly. The hardheaded case for a de facto referendum is now *stronger* as a result of the SNP's decline, because Yes support could be the only thing capable of dragging the SNP back up (unless they change leader).

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  2. How much evidence is there in polling that independence overrides all other issues and could rally lost support back to the SNP, with this continuity leadership? Could Humza really win a plebiscite defacto indyref?

    My own gut feeling is they’re lost in the wilderness until a major shakeup, change of leader, and credible refocus on the one thing they ultimately stand for. Not only don’t I think he wants to do it, I dont think he can.

    The argument I believed in the Nicola years was that soft Nos and the Indy curious were crucial to getting us over the line. Scotgov had to govern for all Scots and earn their trust that there’s more to independence, and those who support it, than a hopeless romantic daydream.

    So do we have evidence there are undecideds / No voters who still back the SNP in any case? What do those cross tabs look like, across the firms and indeed the “change” in leadership?

    I still sense a lot of the “gradualism” (never never!) at the top of the party is rooted in the fear that indyref triggered in 2014, when much of the SNP’s heartland in the North East voted No, and duly elected Tories in 2017. The people who were voting SNP there weren’t the people who voted for them in the central belt, and who still do. They don’t have a good sense who their supporters are.

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    1. "How much evidence is there in polling that independence overrides all other issues and could rally lost support back to the SNP, with this continuity leadership?"

      I'm not really clear what you're asking there. How would you define such evidence, and how would you define the absence of it?

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    2. Apologies for the fuzzy thinking.

      As far as I remember from looking at the occasional poll’s cross tabs myself, there’s often (or always?) a breakdown by recalled 2014 vote for each of the parties current support. Those current SNP voters who voted No to independence could be switchers who’ve changed their mind since, of course, but knowing how that’s changed over time could be informative; especially if they’re also asked which way they’d vote on Indy now. People who remain No yet still vote SNP are what I was on about above. I think the SNP grossly overestimates their numbers, especially beyond the old party homeland of North East Scotland. The leadership would rather keep them loyal than attracting non-SNP voting Yessers.

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  3. I may (or may not) be asking for the same as the above but to fully understand the uncoupling of Yes from SNP I'd like to see the breakdowns of the voting intentions of the people who said Yes in the Ipsos (and all subsequent polling) results.

    Are Yes people who are drifting away from the SNP drifiting towards Greens, towards Alba, towards Labour, towards another party, or towards staying at home and not bothering to vote?

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  4. Humza must go and all the SNP members that voted for him must take a long hard look at themselves. He is not up to the job. The SNP have become the labour party and have no idea what the average Scot needs or wants. I hate to say it independence is dead in the water. I did think 3 or 4 years ago I might see independence in my lifetime but not anymore.

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    1. I agree. I’m 62 now and have sadly come to the conclusion I’ll never see independence. I’ve been an SNP supporter all my life, but will be voting Labour at the next GE. At least a Labour government in Westminster can only be better then the Tories.

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    2. I wouldn't go as far as to vote Labour, but I might do something that I have never done and that's not voting. If the SNP don't see independence as their main principle then they aren't getting my vote

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    3. .. you could also spoil your ballot paper which I'm thinking of doing if there's no alternative.

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    4. Just write "INDEPENDENCE" diagonally across the ballot.

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  5. I suspect I'll be banned from another forum for failing in the bounden duty of groupthink, and daring to have my own opinions. Well, so be it, if that's OK with you ...

    ... surprisingly that is on topic for this thread about - groupthink.

    yesindyref2

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    1. @yesindyref2
      And what opinion might that be? Show us yours!

      I don’t sense an echo chamber of groupthink here. The polls back us up, just as James predicted they would during the leadership contest. Our dismay is quite unwanted but rational. This isn’t the path we wanted to be on.

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    2. The groupthink is the other forum, SGP is on the money.

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    3. That reply "The groupthink is the other forum, SGP is on the money." was me.
      yesindyref2.

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  6. I found this from Giuliagno incredibly wrong, stupid, arrogant, ivory tower, blinkered, and indeed, part of the tragic groupthink that seems to have taken over the previously "broad church" SNP.

    "“Scottish independence ‘off the agenda’ if SNP lose General Election”"

    It should be the other way around. Just move the “if ” to the front.

    I don't understand how anyone so thick could be the policy convener. But it does explain the way the SNP have been faffing around and slapping each other on the back as their opinion poll ratings plummet. Whoopee! We're losers.

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    1. och for goodness sake, forgot to put yesindyref2 on the next line.

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  7. Yesindyref2 just a word about posting. When you click on the line that says 'Enter comment' you will see it changes to see the 'Comment as: Anonymous'. Beside that there's a wee arrow if you put your cursor over that you can click and it gives you the option of NAME/URL on a drop down menu, just pop your name in there then ENTER, then continue. It baffled me at first and sometimes I still forget, hope this helps.

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  8. Online , the SNPy folk still think one is a Brit if one dares criticise Saint Nick, or the SNP - with such people surrounding Humza there is less chance he'll kick ass to rejuvinate the lumbering SNP zombie.

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  9. With the General Election being in 2024 would realistically need an Oct/Nov leadership contest at latest to give new leader a run-in period.

    If polls got worse for next 4 months for SNP this could happen but not sure what would cause that to happen.

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    1. With all due respect that's simply untrue. If you still have the wrong leader in July 2024, the rational thing to do is still to change leader. You're far better off having the correct leader with a short run-in than you are having the wrong leader with a long run-in.

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