Sunday, February 26, 2023

The case for thinking this contest is winnable for Kate Forbes

I agree with a fair bit of Craig Murray's latest blogpost, but there's one part I'll pick up on, because it's not actually the case that there have been no membership-wide votes in the SNP for twenty years.  There have in fact been three depute leadership elections since 2014, and I remember them well because I voted in all three.  On the face of it, the outcomes do not appear to bear out Craig's suspicion that there is a tide of radicalism within the SNP membership just waiting to burst forth...

2018:

1st) Keith Brown
2nd) Julie Hepburn
3rd) Chris McEleny

2016:

1st) Angus Robertson
2nd) Tommy Sheppard
3rd) Alyn Smith
4th) Chris McEleny

2014:

1st) Stewart Hosie
2nd) Keith Brown
3rd) Angela Constance

The 2018 result almost gives the impression that SNP members were deliberately ranking the candidates from least radical to most radical on independence strategy.  The most radical candidate of the lot, Chris McEleny, finished last on both occasions he stood, and although his vote increased markedly between 2016 and 2018 as dissatisfaction with the leadership's over-caution grew, many of his supporters have since followed him to the Alba Party and thus can't vote in this election.  (I'm in that category myself.)  So it might almost be assumed that The Trendies, ie. the Sturgeon-aligned youthful identity politics obsessives who want decades-long political careers and don't want independence getting in the way of that, are in the ascendancy in the membership, and that Humza Yousaf is thus bound to win.

I'm actually not at all sure that's right - after all, Alyn Smith is the undisputed "Daddy" of the soft unionist, identity politics wing of the SNP, and he only finished a distant third in 2016.  I think what actually happened on all three occasions is that SNP members picked the candidate they knew best, liked most and instinctively trusted.  So that resulted in them going for an establishment choice, but I don't think it should be inferred that any of the winning candidates would have suffered if they had offered a more radical independence prospectus - in fact, if they had done, they might have won by an even greater margin.  It's just that being strong on independence isn't sufficient in itself - the members will always choose on personal qualities first.  All other considerations are just the fine-tuning.

That would fit in with the analysis mentioned in The National that 70% of SNP members are over the age of 50 and not as socially liberal as might be assumed.  There are reasons why the membership have leaned towards establishment candidates in recent years but those reasons may have little to do with identity politics issues or a perverse desire to kick independence into the long grass.  Which would be great news for Kate Forbes, because she's just as 'establishment' as Humza Yousaf in that she's a very senior member of the government, and is equally as well known to members.  So if Yousaf and Forbes start on a level playing field in that sense, and if Forbes' social conservatism isn't necessarily a barrier, is there any reason to doubt that SNP members might just come to the same conclusion that the general public are expressing in opinion polls - ie. that Forbes is by some distance the more likeable and trustworthy of the two, and is thus the most deserving of support?

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16 comments:

  1. Craig Murray also says the depute leadership election in 2016 was "of course" rigged (though provides no evidence, at least not in his most recent post), which suggests we can't really extrapolate anything from the results.

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  2. A wee thought, back in 2016, Alyn Smith wasn't yet seen as a yoon Daddy Bear. This was just after his impassioned speeches (and they were great, let's not revise history!) gave him a higher profile, and people assumed he was a proper independence supporter. It was really only after he became an MP that people realised who he really was.

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    1. Very true Andrew. If only phoney independence supporters walked about wearing Sweatshirts/T shirts saying Independence Supporter on the front and Only Kidding on the back it would be so much easier to spot the time wasters/charlatans/parasites.
      Always useful to look at actions of the current leadership:
      1. Multiple independence mandates unused.
      2. Sturgeon declares she will not carry out an illegal referendum and then appoints a Unionist Lord Advocate to get a London Court to declare any referendum she wants to carry out on independence will be illegal. She then says she respects the decision of an English court overriding mandates for independence from the people of Scotland from 2016.
      3. She promises a de facto referendum instead and then resigns and sinks it.
      4. Money raised for Indyref2 being investigated by the polis.

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  3. A WGD numpty posted that there is no problem with Murrell overseeing the election as his wife is not standing.
    I'll spell out the problem for the numpty. Murrell's job and/or his 'lifestyle' could be in jeopardy if the 'wrong' FM is elected.

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    1. Another of the WGD intellectuals has posted - and it's not the one with the naval fixation:
      "As far as I can tell it is in reality a two horse race between Humza and Forbes, I’m discounting Regan for many reasons. Both are admiral people..."
      :)

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    2. A different WGD numpty states whats the problem about Murrell being in charge of the leadership election it's not as if he will be sending out the ballots personally. Looks like this numpty is so clued up (not) that the numpty thinks there will be paper ballots sent out. The Sunday Mail today stated Murrell will be able to monitor the votes coming in on screen in real time throughout the voting period and if Murrell is not impartial that could give an advantage to his preferred candidate.

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  4. Forbes has shown that she answers questions directly and truthfully - perhaps some one could ask her exactly what her plans are for independence. Are they Sturgeonite or Salmondite? ie Youssef or Reagan.

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  5. Some more Skier Propaganda.

    1. Skier says:- "Spectator backing Regan/Salmond."

    2. Skier says:- " Yousaf unquestionably voted for the same sex marriage bill. Did so at Stage 1."

    Sadly SGP poster Keaton also thinks Yousaf voted for same sex marriage although he gives it an asterisk.

    Listen Keaton an asterisk does not give you a get out of posting pish. Aligning yourself with the mad lying propagandist that is Skier does your credibility no good. Yousaf lied to get out of voting in the final vote ( that's the one that ultimately counts) and then has lied ever since on so many other occasions it would be impossible to count. Lying like that is no problem for Skier as he is a proven liar. Keaton as an honory WGD numpty you seem to be picking up more of their bad habits.

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    1. Another cracker from the Irish/British/French/Scottish Skier ( as he NOW loves self ID so much I guess he selfIDs each nationality each day depending on what he is having for breakfast - croissants oh la la - square sausage hoots mon - a cup of tea jolly good show old boy - white pudding - top of the morning to ya.

      Multi National Skier says:- " Yousaf does seem more progressive on women's rights...." Wow Skier says the Muslim man is more progressive on women's right than the two women candidates. Who would have thought that. Wait a min is he talking about trans women's rights only.

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    2. Thanks for the tips on maintaining my credibility, but stage 1 "ultimately counts" as much as the subsequent stages do: if the bill falls at that point, it doesn't proceed. Still, maybe you could employ your clearly superior knowledge of parliamentary procedure to explain how voting for the "general principles" of a same-sex marriage bill doesn't constitute voting for same-sex marriage.

      Yousaf allegedly received a backlash for that vote, and consequently arranged an excuse to miss the next one. Hence the asterisk. I'd say my summary of the situation is closer to reality than Skier's, and certainly closer than yours

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    3. To be closer to reality than Skier, a wild guess is generally sufficient.

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    4. Keaton clearly you do not appreciate my tips but to most people I think lying about your reason for not voting and then continually lying about it on tv whilst criticising someone else at the time for honestly SAYING hypothetically they would not vote merits more than an asterisk. But in Skiers world you may be happy to think it does I don't.

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    5. The Daily Record says that Sturgeon's Unionist Lord Advocate has recused herself from the polis investigation in to the £600 k funds.
      Why has the investigation taken so long and when did the Lord Advocate recuse herself?
      Is it just a coincidence that the Chief Constable has decided to go just as Sturgeon is going ?
      Is a lot of shit about to hit the fan? Will the shit land on Britnats?

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  6. Skier continues his full on Sturgeon propaganda mode and says:- " Salmond now promoting the Daily North British Labour with an article attacking the SNP. " of course it is just more of usual Skier pish.

    WGD numpty Capella responds:- " I don't see anything wrong with what he said in that article. He may be tarnished but he's not stupid and I believe he still supports independence. Good advice IMO."

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  7. Correction accepted James. But I would caution against presuming people will act in a leadership election as they would in one for Deputy. They are more likely to pay attention and at least watch a TV debate. That will lessen the effect you rightly highlight of the desire to just vote for someone they have heard of an respect.

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  8. Humza Yousaf appeals to the progressive wing of the SNP and Greens but his numbers suggest that he does not appeal to the wider electorate.

    Others can discuss the reasons for this but my own anecdotal evidence would confirm to that he is not popular .IMHO he would be an electoral disaster waiting to happen for the SNP.

    Ash Regan has got absolutely no chance .
    Kate Forbes however is the one who seems to connect with the public as the numbers demonstrate The chattering classes maybe trying to monster her but I sense there is a lot sympathy towards her given the treatment she has received .In comparison to other politicians people are attracted to her honesty also I get a sense people admire her fortitude for not caving and withdrawing from the contest.
    Honest with integrity and got a bit of backbone perfect leadership material IMHO.It helps that she is smart and unlike Humza is on top of her ministerial brief
    She also doesn't seem to spook the comfortable middle classes that voted No in 2014 .
    I don't like quoting the Unionist zealot Daisley but he thinks she makes Independence seem reasonable and almost common sense.
    The Daily Mail will find it difficult to demonise church going honest Kate .She ain't going to be involved corruption will not be involved in sleaze .She is like a character out of the Walton's or Little House on the Prairie .She is a mega problem for Unionists and unlike the other two I think she could sway a number of soft No's.
    She is also getting back to basics it's the economy stupid .Again I know anecdotal most of the people I know are angry when the SG is tying itself it knots trying to explain why a woman can have a penis and they can't afford to heat their house or eat properly.That should be a priority and of course tying that into support for Independence
    I think Kate will shine in the hustings.
    I agree with you Humza needs to get 50% or near enough it in first preference votes as Ash second preferences are most likely to break for Kate.
    You can get 7/4 on Kate winning at the bookies I think I'll have some of that

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