Thursday, January 21, 2021

A reply to the agenda-driven attempts to undermine the poll result showing a majority for "Plan B"

On Tuesday night, I published the result of a question from the Scot Goes Pop / Survation poll showing that voters are in favour of the so-called Plan B option to use this year's Holyrood election to seek an outright mandate for independence.  Here is a reminder of the question and the result.

The UK Government has stated that it will seek to prevent a Scottish independence referendum taking place for several decades, regardless of whether Scottish voters elect a Scottish Government committed to holding a referendum.  In view of this stance, do you think pro-independence parties, such as the SNP and the Scottish Greens, should or should not include an outright independence pledge in their manifestos for this year's scheduled Scottish Parliament election, to give people the opportunity to vote for or against independence?  (Scot Goes Pop / Survation poll, 11th-13th January 2021): 

Should: 45%
Should not: 36%

With Don't Knows excluded -

Should: 55%
Should not: 45%

Some people obviously felt quite threatened by these numbers, because practically within seconds there was a sustained attempt to discredit the wording of the question.  It's possible that a minority of people may have been raising objections in good faith, but there's no doubt at all that the majority of the criticisms had an agenda behind them.  They were being made by people who are known to have a dogmatic view that an election cannot under any circumstances be legitimately used to gain an indy mandate.  The most prolonged exchange I had was with Cameron Archibald, who notoriously let himself down very badly a couple of weeks ago by calling Joanna Cherry MP a "deceitful moron", simply because she argued that a plebiscitary election is a legitimate option that has a clear precedent in the UK's own history.  So there's no secret at all about where Cameron is coming from on this, and the idea that he was just innocently offering textual quibbles about the question should thus be taken with a heavy dose of salt.

Of course Cameron's real problem with Joanna Cherry is her stance on the trans issue.  And this is something I've noticed in recent weeks - isn't it odd how completely unconnected issues can become irrationally linked in people's minds, especially when tribal loyalties are involved? Even though there is no possible connection between trans rights and a plebiscitary election on independence, Cameron probably feels on some level that he is defending the former by scathingly attacking the latter.  That's because his allies on the trans issue just happen to be mostly opposed to a plebiscitary election, and his 'enemies' just happen to be mostly in favour of one.  

I had thought about writing a follow-up blogpost on Tuesday night to rebut some of the criticisms of the question, but I decided against it, on the basis that it might lend credibility to what were mostly bogus and politically motivated objections.  However, the fact that there's still chatter about the question after two days demonstrates once again that it's possible to mess with people's heads if you're really determined.  If you have enough friends who can insist loudly enough that there's a problem with something, and even if you take a scattergun and contradictory approach to identifying what the problem supposedly is, people will eventually start doubting themselves and think there must be at least some truth in what you're saying.  It's a bit like the "doesn't she look tired?" snowball effect in Doctor Who.

So the time has come to knock this nonsense firmly on the head.  The main criticism I had anticipated with the Plan B question was its wordiness - but that was pretty much unavoidable, because the concept of Plan B and the reasons for thinking it may be necessary are not familiar to most voters.  Unless you put the issue in context, you won't get meaningful answers from respondents.  An empty question will produce an empty result.  I also expected one or two people might suggest that the question is leading on the basis that "opportunity" is a word with positive connotations - although I thought that would be a bit of stretch.

But no, those weren't the main criticisms.  Instead, the absurd line of attack was that the term "outright independence pledge" was somehow "vague" or "unclear". It got to the point where Cameron was repeatedly asking me to explain what it meant - although I have no information on whether he managed to maintain a straight face while doing so.  Eventually I said to him in exasperation: "Cameron, if I asked you what 'spade' means, how would you reply?" The point being that I literally cannot think of any simpler or clearer way of expressing the concept of "outright independence pledge" - it's already the most straightforward language available, which is why I used it.  An independence pledge is a pledge of independence.  'Outright' means that the pledge is for independence itself, rather than just for a referendum.

Someone claimed in all apparent seriousness to have read the question and to have concluded it was about a pledge of a referendum.  Answers on a postcard, folks, if you have any ideas as to how "outright independence pledge" can even conceivably imply such a thing - it plainly can't.  The same person then asked me "why didn't you just ask whether the Holyrood election should be used as a national plebiscitary vote?", as if that would somehow have been a much simpler question.  I didn't know whether to laugh or cry - I doubt if 90% of voters would have the first idea of what a 'national plebiscitary vote' actually is.

Another suggestion that has been made, and this is perhaps not intended quite so vexatiously, is that the question could simply imply that the SNP should beef up the language about independence in their manifesto as compared to previous elections, without going the whole hog of a Plan B.  But that fundamentally misunderstands what the SNP have been doing in elections since the start of devolution two decades ago.  They haven't been making lukewarm manifesto pledges about independence that can now be strengthened.  The reality is that they haven't been pledging independence at all - merely a referendum.  When SNP spokespeople, all the way up to the leader, were asked during election campaigns whether a vote for the SNP was a vote for independence, the reply was absolutely explicit: "No, it's a vote for an SNP government and a referendum". Making an outright manifesto pledge of independence would be a radical departure for the SNP, and it would be the first time that a vote for the SNP has directly been a vote for independence since the 1997 UK general election.  If the SNP had won the 1997 election in Scotland, they would have claimed a mandate to negotiate independence.  That's exactly what Plan B is now.

The final point I'd make is that commissioning a poll from Survation is a slightly different experience from commissioning one from Panelbase, because they're more likely to change the wording of the client's suggested questions (with the agreement of the client, of course). They changed this question slightly, and one of the other questions in the poll was actually changed quite radically.  That suggests to me that they were probably satisfied that the approved wording of the Plan B question was clear and was not going to be confusing for respondents.

13 comments:

  1. The question comprises 3 components:

    Background: On-going UK government obstruction to referendum
    Action: Include item in pro-Indy party election manifesto(s)
    Purpose: to give folks the opportunity to vote for/against Indy

    Seems fair and clear enough to me.

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  2. The result suggest the question wasn't leading as 55/45 for Yes is just, within variance, the current Y/N average.

    So all that happened is that those which support indy felt if a referendum was denied to them, then they should be allowed a different means to vote for it. In contrast, those against we inclined to be against, unsurprisingly.

    I believe an election is a perfectly acceptable route if a referendum is blocked, it's just I don't see how a referendum can realistically be stopped.

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    Replies
    1. A referendum can realistically be stopped by continuing to say no to one. My problem with continuing to press for one has always been simply that there is no way to pressure a UK gov't that has no reason to care about Scottish opinion. As George Osborne said in his article advocating simply denying a referendum (and only a slight paraphrase) if the Scots don't like it, so what?

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    2. How? Saying 'no' doesn't prevent a referendum. Only a successful legal challenge against referendum legislation could do that. Johnson doesn't have the personal power either; a S30 is matter for the UK parliament, it's not an executive decision.

      The recent referendums act (2020) is now law and allows for Holyrood to hold referendums on any topic.

      A referendum on independence does not change the law in any way, so does not alter the Scotland Act.

      Scotland can hold a legal referendum, just not one which binds the rUK or any other government to accept it.

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    3. Actually that point is being is being decided by the Court Of Session currently.
      https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/pas30/

      I know in the past you have been critical of this case citing the problems that it could cause if the court rules that a section 30 is needed.

      Mood music seems to be that the court will either not pass a judgment on the grounds of the case being hypothetical or it will defer the case for the UKSC to rule on.

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    4. I agree Skier. But it's amazing how many believe Johnson alone has the power to stymie an Indyref.
      Make no mistake the Brit establishment will crumble and change their tune when denying democracy is no longer an option.
      Believing Boris IMO is a form of the Scottish cringe.
      A political deal between Scotland and EnglandUK will happen when it is inevitable and Boris Johnson will be history.

      Delete
  3. A comment by Scottish Skier that appeared in my inbox and then disappeared into the ether -

    "Must admit I have found it weird to be called a 'woke transfan' when questioning elements of the Salmond conspiracy.

    #unionistconcerntrollredflag"

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  4. just a quick follow up to this article posted in the last thread:
    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-border/british-to-face-ban-on-entering-eu-under-german-plan-to-shut-borders-the-times-idUSKBN29Q021

    Even if the UK was still in the EU, other EU countries could close their borders to people from the UK. It would be no different to when, for example, Germany closed its borders to traffic from France, Austria and Switzerland last March. So nothing to do with Brexit.

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    Replies
    1. I imagine this legislation serves a purpose.

      Closure of internal borders is not normally permitted between member states and the closures you refer to were just for leisure travel. Commercial and essential were still permitted. Many people e.g. live in Germany and work in France...have a house in one but their doctor is in the other... It is not possible to close borders to all traffic for a good reason.

      I understand the legislation is looking at allowing complete closure for non-member states such as the UK, so even if you lived in Spain but worked in England (as someone I know does), you could be prevented from travel into the EU completely, unless you hold an EU passport like me. Commercial traffic would generally still be permitted.

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    2. I get the purpose. If a country thinks it needs to shut its borders to people from another country because of the high rates of Covid in that country they should do. Of course if they decide to do that then its needs to be for all the people in said country. Having a EU passport does not reduce the chance of you having Covid and therefore transmitting in another country. Things like this need to be based on public health/risks not the type of passport they have.

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  5. Seems the mass xodus of skilled workers due to brexit is far bigger than thought. I suspected this was the case, but jeez; 1.3 million is 2% of the entire population.

    Mystery of the UK’s vanishing foreign-born workers

    When hundreds of thousands of eastern European migrants came to the UK after the EU expanded in 2004, official statistics did not spot the arrivals for a long time. It is fitting therefore that the Office for National Statistics now stands accused of also failing to notice an exodus of 1.3m foreign-born people during the pandemic, including 700,000 from London.

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  6. What disturbs me about the Salmond-Sturgeon conspiracy cult is that they don't want justice, but want revenge* on Sturgeon/the SNP/Yes voters. You can tell this from their posts; the anger and spite is all too evident.

    It's why I don't have time for them. Hopefully Salmond doesn't either.

    I would like justice done if it is justified, but unlike the BBC et al., I abhor revenge.

    ----

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/evolution-the-self/201402/don-t-confuse-revenge-justice-five-key-differences

    5. Revenge is about retaliation; justice is about restoring balance. The motive of revenge has mostly to do with expressing rage, hatred, or spite. It’s a protest or payback, and its foremost intent is to harm. In and of itself, it’s not primarily about justice but about victims’ affirming their inborn (but non-legal) right to retaliate against some wrong done to them.

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  7. Am I just naive ( or stupid) in thinking this bbc article is a surprisingly clear and apparently fair summary of the current referendum court case?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55751064

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