Thursday, July 21, 2016

One Country, Two Systems : How Scotland can remain in the EU

A guest post by Alasdair Stirling

It is an understatement of some magnitude to say that the words of the ancient Chinese curse - ‘may you live in interesting times’ – are apposite today.

The EU referendum vote set the good ship ‘UK’ on an uncharted course and just for good measure has thrown the captain and his officers overboard. And if that wasn’t enough, fate determined to set the reserve captain and his motley crew fighting amongst themselves. Now a month from the referendum we have a new captain but no course and no compass. However, all is not disarray. The first mate of the northern part of the ship is showing worrying signs of leadership and competence and is threatening to launch the lifeboat; most horrifyingly of all she may have both charts and a compass for the voyage.

Seafaring analogies aside, the Unionist establishment are far from worried about any peril to their blessed Union from this turn of events. Quite the reverse in fact: the Unionist media in Scotland is cock-a-hoop with delight at the way that Theresa May’s first order of business was to come north and ‘sucker’ Nicola Sturgeon into participating fully in the forthcoming the Brexit negotiations. Their delight is grounded in the belief that Theresa May has killed any resurgent demand for independence with kindness. However, their view is underpinned by the logic that there is no possible way for Scotland to remain in both the British and European unions. Thus the logic goes: give the SNP the time and chance to propose the impossible and when they fail gracefully accept their capitulation to the inevitability of Brexit.

However, this type of thinking is what is known as an informal fallacy: specifically it is ‘argumentum ad ignorantiam’, or in English an ‘argument from ignorance’. You see, the Unionist’s delight at Theresa May’s political positioning putting Scotland in an impossible position is the measure of their ignorance. How delighted will they be if Nicola Sturgeon puts forward an arrangement that can see Scotland remaining in both the British and European unions? Not so delighted I suspect, and no doubt inclined to write off any such proposal as a crazy CyberNat/SNP fantasy. But there is a giant fly in that particular jar of ointment: you see the British Foreign Office negotiated and the British government approved the working template for just such an arrangement.

In 1984, the British and Chinese governments agreed the Sino-British Joint Declaration founded on the constitutional principle of ‘One Country, Two Systems’ formulated by Deng Xiaoping (the Leader of the People's Republic of China). The imperative driving Deng’s thinking was the obvious difficulty in successfully reunifying Hong Kong’s advanced free wheeling capitalist economy with the mainland’s underdeveloped bureaucratic command led society. Deng’s suggested resolution to the problem was that there would be only one China, but distinct Chinese regions such as Hong Kong could retain their own capitalist economic and political systems, while the rest of China uses the socialist system. Under this principle, Hong Kong could continue to have its own political system, legal, economic and financial affairs, including external relations with foreign countries.

For those interested, the full text of the Sino-British Joint Declaration is available HERE. However, in mischievous spirit I shall use it to set forth a draft text of a possible Anglo-Scottish Joint Declaration that Nicola Sturgeon might put forward for Theresa May’s consideration.

• The national unity and territorial integrity of the United Kingdom shall be upheld and a Scottish Special Administrative Region (ScotSAR) shall be established.

• The ScotSAR will be directly under the authority of the Government of the United Kingdom (GovUK) but will enjoy a high degree of autonomy, except in defence affairs.

• The ScotSAR will be vested with executive, legislative and independent judicial power, including that of final adjudication. The laws currently in force in ScotSAR will remain basically unchanged.

• The Government of the ScotSAR will be composed of local inhabitants. The First Minister will be appointed by Her Majesty the Queen on the basis of the results of elections or consultations to be held locally. British and foreign nationals previously working in the public and police services in the government departments of ScotSAR may remain in employment. British and other foreign nationals may also be employed to serve as advisers or hold certain public posts in government departments of the ScotSAR.

• The current social and economic systems in ScotSAR will remain unchanged, and so will the life-style. Rights and freedoms, including those of the person, of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of travel, of movement, of correspondence, of strike, of choice of occupation, of academic research and of religious belief will be ensured by law in the ScotSAR. Private property, ownership of enterprises, legitimate right of inheritance and foreign investment will be protected by law.

• The ScotSAR will have the status of a free port and a separate customs territory. It can continue the current trade policy, including the four freedoms: goods, services, people and capital.

• The ScotSAR will be an independent financial centre with free flow of capital and a freely convertible ScotSAR currency. The ScotSAR may authorise designated banks to issue or continue to issue ScotSAR currency under statutory authority.

• The ScotSAR will have independent finances with its own budgets and final accounts, but reporting it to the GovUK. Additionally, GovUK will not levy taxes on ScotSAR, but the ScotSAR and GovUK will agree financial transfers one to another as required in respect of the use of defence facilities and mutual defence arrangements.

• The ScotSAR may establish mutually beneficial economic relations with the United Kingdom and other foreign countries.

• The name used for international relations will be ‘Scotland, UK’. In doing so it may maintain and develop diplomatic, economic and cultural relations and agreements with states, regions and relevant international organisations on its own account and it may issue ScotSAR passports for its citizens and local inhabitants. The ScotSAR may agree and implement international agreements to which the GovUK is not a party.

• The government of the ScotSAR is responsible for the maintenance of public order. GovUK military forces stationed in ScotSAR, for the purpose of defence shall not interfere in the internal affairs in the ScotSAR.

Of course this sort of arrangement should not be any obstacle to the Unionist establishment who a mere two years ago were offering ‘Devo SuperMax’, a ‘powerhouse parliament’ and ‘as near to federalism as is possible’. More than that, such a ‘one country, two systems’ arrangement would allow Theresa May (who is no doubt ‘respectful’ of Scotland) to avoid being the Prime Minister who lost the Union. However, I suspect that if Nicola Sturgeon were minded to make such a proposal, the Unionists will likely want to put a flea in her ear and tell her to ‘go home, be a good girl and eat her cereal’ - or rather they would if Scotland had no other option.

98 comments:

  1. Not sure it would not work due to the loss of revenue to England & Wales, UK (assuming a similar deal was in place for NI.

    Not sure how the EU would view it.

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  2. Interesting idea but probably won't fly with HM Government in London.
    China and Hong Kong are "foreign countries" as far as the Britnat mentality goes and Scotland is part of England so must remain fully under Westminster control.
    When some said that May's visit to Scotland was simply to buy time for their exit negotiations,I was sceptical but after her visit to Germany that appears to have been confirmed.
    The intention,clearly is to stave off Scottish aspirations until they have negotiated the exit deal with the EU and then force the issue through an independence referendum,or by simply ignoring us as usual.
    We cannot sit idly by and allow this to happen,or we will find ourselves outside the EU with our rights being decided by England's Tories and probably some sort of constitutional pronouncement that the UK is indivisible forever and ever amen.
    Perhaps we could ask the Chinese to intervene on our behalf (they have the money).

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    1. "Interesting idea but probably won't fly with HM Government in London.
      China and Hong Kong are "foreign countries" as far as the Britnat mentality goes and Scotland is part of England so must remain fully under Westminster control."


      Yes, but that's Alasdair's whole point : this is a perfectly feasible idea that the UK government would never accept, thus providing the casus belli (not that a further one is really required) for a second indyref.

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    2. Agreed.

      There was a referendum in 2014. Nicola and our government respect that; they bend over backwards to find a solution that takes into account that 55% of the population wishes (or wished at that time) to be a part of the UK.

      However, the UK government must also realise, as our government does, that 63% of the same population wish to be part of the EU.

      Nicola continues to bend over backwards to accommodate two results of two referenda.

      The UK only cares to recognise one referendum result in Scotland. The 2014 one. The other must also take into consideration the wishes of the English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Gibraltar people.

      Reluctantly Nicola, having bust a gut has to announce that she must ask the Scottish people to decide whether, unable to accommodate both votes because of British intransigence, they would prefer to go with the 2014 (55%) or the more recent 63% result.

      In the end it is the only fair thing to do.

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    3. Nicola has to get the engine running. We need her summer offensive right now. And yet she needs some further resolution on what Europe might do. I have the feeling that getting the timing right on this will either make Nicola Sturgeon a hero or a failure.

      So, no pressure on her.

      I hope she takes all the time she needs to win a Scottish referendum, but it is going to be very, very hard to do so. For timing seems to be against us. We need a window of opportunity to stay in the EU as expressed by us, when the tide is for chucking the whole of the UK out. It is certainly the case that Scotland, as a subsidiary member of the EU agrees to all it's legislation. That is a plus.

      So, I could see a scenario where a sub state, in EU terms, already converges. So, why chuck them out?

      No reason.

      However, we would probably have another referendum or two.

      The horrible people that care about threats to their pensions will be threatened again. The 80% trade UK / 20% trade EU lobby will be out in force.

      An independent pound will be the subject of, probably, satire by the Economist, The Financial Times and Viz.

      These are, joking apart, barriers that we have to overcome.

      It is going to take a completely new platform, one that learned from the failures of Indy 1 to address and turn these into positives.

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    4. If you added NI to the SAR it would probably be welcomed by the UUP, SDLP & SF and might even appeal to the DUP as the only way of avoiding a 2nd [NI only] referendum to meet the Belfast Agreement (aka Good Friday Agreement) itself, and particularly to Page 3’s:
      CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES
      1. The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement, they will: ….. (iii) acknowledge ….. that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people;


      The GFA is an international treaty which it would be hard for May to ignore.

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    5. PS to my previous post.....

      I should have added that a joint Scottish & NI SAR would be a gradualist approach that might actually be acceptable to Westminster.

      Not only would it solve many problems even for the unionists in NI and be seen as helpful by the Irish government, it would unarguably be seen to be respecting both the 2014 and 2016 referendum results in Scotland.

      Over time, it could only improve the prospects of indyref2.

      Delete
  3. Bumblefuck tories for unityJuly 21, 2016 at 3:38 PM

    "the Unionist establishment are far from worried about any peril to their blessed Union from this turn of events."

    Which does indeed speak to their ignorance but a core reason for May proposing a quasi Veto on Brexit does seem to have been simple stalling tactics.

    She needed an excuse for booting Brexit firmly into next year and will likely need it again when the comedy trio of Boris, Fox and Davis find themselves laughably out of their depth.

    Need more proof?

    The simple fact of the matter is that Brexit could also easily threaten the NI peace process and the complete silence on the matter from May and her ramshackle cabinet of tory third raters speaks volumes.

    So for all the chaos of Labour it is abundantly clear that the wafer thin veneer of 'business as usual' and 'unity' from the tories is incredibly fragile. It won't take much at all before it cracks and shatters into a thousand pieces.

    As for deals and counter deals, THE VOW is all the proof in the world that any westminster establishment pronouncements on Federalism will have the somewhat crucial "trust" factor to overcome long before they will be taken seriously by the scottish public. Not something that will be helped by a tory PM and Davidson being the very public 'face' of their rhetoric.

    Their problem is they have no choice. They can't seriously expect the scottish public to listen to ever more strident tory shrieking for scots to 'know our place' and just accept any old bollocks without the slightest attempt to address the gaping chasm between the scottish polity and England/Wales.

    Lip service aside, they will have to have a plan to accommodate the radically different situation in scotland which will need to involve just a touch more than Road signs and bobby-trapped tax 'powers'.

    Sadly for them, well thought through planning certainly doesn't seem to be the westminster bubble's strongest area of expertise, to say the least.

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    1. The stalling can only go on so long. Other EU members are keen to see UK trigger A50. I hear news on the radio saying the economy is working as normal, but I'm not so sure if that is true. At the same time they are talking interest rate cuts. Those two "facts" are incompatible.

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    2. Bumblefuck tories for unityJuly 21, 2016 at 11:01 PM

      The stalling isn't there just so tory MPs can run off on their lovely hols and try to forget about the all-consuming clusterfuck that awaits them when they come back.

      May is stalling because the tories still don't appear to have have the slightest idea what form Brexit will take and have put three absurd clowns in charge of the negotiation and 'plan'.

      If article 50 were triggered tomorrow the result would be hysteria and panic on the stockmarkets that would make 2008 look like a mere blip. They have NO PLAN and Brexit is about as serious as it gets economically.

      Not only that, but they need a plan that will, according to May, satisfy Northern Ireland and Scotland and still somehow satisfy the hardline Brexiteers while keeping the Cameroons and remainers on board.

      But the sheer GENIUS that also has to be factored in is that the tory leadership 'campaign' was a total scorched earth affair.

      It annihilated everyone BUT May with dirty tricks, smears, backstabbling, frontstabbling, threats, broken promises and betrayal.

      All very jolly for the westmisnter bubble journos no doubt, but unless they really do have their heads stuck firmly up their arse they surely can't have missed that nobody in the parliamentary tory party trusts anyone right now. It is a snakepit of rumours and revenge plots waiting to blow up. The only reason it hasn't is, they do indeed go on their hols soon and the obvious trigger of the Brexit 'deal' has yet to take shape.

      Nor do the remainer tory establishment trust their own conservative membership. Which is precisely why they did everything in their power to make sure May didn't have to face them.

      Indeed, the sheer amount of bruised egos, turf wars, and out and out blood feuds that have been set in motion cannot possibly be glossed over forever and they WILL resurface soon enough.

      Most likely when the first broad-brush outlines of the Brexit 'deal' begin to surface and the Brexiteers or the Remainers decide to push back. Hard.

      Freedom of movement and the single market are inextricable.
      That has been made crystal clear by the EU.

      The tories will not get to have their cake and eat it, no matter how hard they try to convince themselves otherwise.

      Whatever 'fudge' they come up with will have to fool either the remainers or the Brexiteers into backing it. The chances of that happening is precisely zero what with the rampant mistrust, suspicion and paranoia between the tory remainer and Brexiteer factions.

      you pile on the tories tiny majority and the fairly low bar of disgruntled MPs needed to set another tory leadership contest in motion and you have the perfect storm of yet another colossal hypershambles waiting in the wings.

      It's why the hilarious hubris of witless tories shrieking about Corbyn is on a par with the same westminster bubble twits stunning lack of self awareness as they wittered on about just how much of a certainty a remain vote was.

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  4. One significant issue is that Hong Kong had a (more or less) fully established tax system. Scotland still does not and there is huge reluctance for full devolution of tax to Scotland (see Barnett Formula!).

    Still seems like the best way forward for independence is to make independence about choice above all else. Scotland did not choose to leave EU, re-new Trident, adopt Westminster policies etc. My personal experience is that many of my friends and relatives are put off by the those who see independence as a way to adopt a left-wing constitution.

    Anyone know if anymore opinion polls have been commissioned recently regarding independence? I am curious to see what effect the current issues have had!

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    1. What on earth is a "left-wing constitution"?

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    2. I think it may be related to the Monarch,or lack of.

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  5. As part of the sleazy corrupt UK it cant. Drawing parallels between Scotland and HK is just plain insulting. How many of us would tolerate Westmiddens corrupt sleazy placemen and women handing down London dictates to us? We have enough of that already.

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    1. "Drawing parallels between Scotland and HK is just plain insulting."

      Not sure about that. I don't think any of us envy the lack of democracy in Hong Kong, but there's no getting away from it - Hong Kong enjoys a level of autonomy far in excess of what Scotland currently has.

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    2. They even get their own Olympic team despite not ever being an independent country.

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    3. What level of real autonomy is there when the Chinese Govt picks who can and cant stand for any "Admin" posts in HK James. Is any kind of real autonomy possible without real democracy.

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  6. My sanity wouldn't survive a EU + offer

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  7. James - The Faroe Islands have more autonomy from Denmark than we do from WM and they are tiny. Scotland's devolution is farcical given places like the IOM and the Faroes having greater power than our ancient nation.

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  8. Sturgeon can walk away at any time after she comes face to face with the actual intransigence of Davis et al whenever that comes and i suspect it won't be too long given the strong eh clues let's say about his position re Scotland. No need to get embroiled in convoluted academic long shot distractions such as this. I can't see even the most staunchly unionist SLABer saying that she hadn't fulfilled her promise to parliament if she walks away without exploring this nonsense.

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  9. Glasgow Working Class 2July 21, 2016 at 4:42 PM

    The UK voted oot so there you are Nat sis. Over one million Scots voted oot. Over two million Scots voted to remain in the Union. What do you fash bhoys not get. Knickerless is an embarrassment and anti democratic. May should tell the wee shite to stop crawlin tae herman and the frogs. We are oot hen you do not represent Scotland.

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    1. GLASGOW WORKING CLASS 2.0July 21, 2016 at 4:51 PM

      I MUST REPLY TO EVERY POST.

      Delete
    2. "Over one million Scots voted oot."

      Er...so what? The result in Scotland was Remain 62%, Leave 38%.

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    3. Dont bother replying to this nyaff, GWC2 - he's just a unionist troll/heidcase

      Delete
  10. Looks like 23 made an early start on the turps this evening.

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  11. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, and displays a strange and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor.

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  12. I wouldn't bother anymore. He obviously hates himself. Wouldn't you if you spent your time say trolling a unionist site? Wouldn't wanna be you troll!

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  13. James if you don't ban that arsehole Glasgow lazy Arse then your site will die. I am sick of the cretin. First it challenged me to violence and when I said bring it on any time any place It Bottled it. Surely you should ban comments if they are from anon or with no name attached as anyone can say any poison and think they can get away with it. Ban the Arse!!!!!!! or I will never visit the site again.

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    1. Look, there are only so many times I can say this. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO BAN PEOPLE ON THE BLOGGER PLATFORM. Clear?

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    2. I understand entirely.What I don't understand is all the posters who give him encouragement by engaging with him.If everyone just ignored him we'd soon hardly notice him.

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    3. Glasgow Working Class 2July 21, 2016 at 7:45 PM

      Nat si fascist.

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    4. The poster above is a far-right racist troll from EnglandJuly 21, 2016 at 7:47 PM

      .

      Delete
    5. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor.

      Delete
    6. Wee Ginger Dug uses Wordpress. I need to login to post there. He doesn't have wank trolls.

      And we have offered to finance the move.

      I'm away for two weeks. If you do it, or fundraisefor it, ask me in a fortnight. £100. Guaranteed!

      Delete
    7. "Wee Ginger Dug uses Wordpress. I need to login to post there."

      That's right. That's a different platform. I use this platform. I have no plans to change platform.

      Delete
    8. Don't consider moving at your peril . Look what happened to Bella when they were looking for annual funding .Bella had changed it's stance from being a pro indy site to a pro Rise , pro Green , pro anything , before the Scottish elections and that cost us having a majority government , hence they did not get close to their annual funding .They also were very dogmatic in what they would do and not do , they are now suffering the consequences .

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    9. Aye right John. You should really join GWC2 in higgledy dumpty lala land. You'll be saying next that we should all get behind the SNP as the main Indyref2 Yes platform, and ignore all those other terrible Greens and lefties and non aligned people. Still on Bothvotes2 are we John? Eat yer own cereal.

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    10. Paul, literally every post by you recently has been about GWC. Even when he hasn't appeared on a thread, you make a post wondering where he is. It's amazingly gullible. If you "never visit the site again", all we'd lose is troll bait.

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    11. Aye , still on both votes SNP for me , the rest are a waste of space !

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    12. John : Every time I run a fundraiser, people tell me to switch platform and ban GWC. If making my own decisions about that sort of thing is your idea of 'dogmatic', I'm no more or less dogmatic than I was at the time of the last fundraiser.

      For what it's worth, my own view of the Bella fundraiser is that it was pretty successful, albeit mainly because they have advantages that other sites don't have, such as an enormous mailing list, which as far as I can see they add people to every time someone leaves a comment on the site. So they were able to send out multiple emails along the lines of "Only 72 Hours to Save Bella!" and every time they did, they got another couple of thousand. Probably their only mistake was to set the target figure too high.

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    13. Tel't John! The other thing about Bella is that there is a surprising dearth in the last few months of the SNP bigot and abuser variety. The rest, still the majority probably, seem pretty reasonable and prepared to work across the political spectrum for Yes again. That's unsuccessful?

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    14. RISE to obscurityJuly 22, 2016 at 2:58 PM

      All the crowdfunding in the world can't buy Bella back the trust that site has lost after it lied and lied again.



      Delete
    15. Tel't lol Def not a sockpuppet.

      Delete
    16. Rise to Obscurity
      Got it in one !

      Delete
  14. Here's the problem: Hong Kong is a more or less liberal capitalist economy attached to a China in which the state has far greater control over the economy (and in which, for example, residents need 'internal passports' to work in different provinces). However, the HK-style solution proposed would presumably leave Scotland and rUK with relatively similar economic and social governing structures. An rUK which wanted to significantly lower net immigration, then, would find it difficult to be attached to a Scotland in which EU citizens would still have the right to live and work: unless there were controls on the movement of peoples between Scotland and rUK.

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    1. "unless there were controls on the movement of peoples between Scotland and rUK."

      I'd imagine there would have to be. There's certainly a hard border between Hong Kong and the rest of China.

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    2. That would be a very hard sell, to put it mildly. The Yes campaign and the SNP went to great lengths during the Indyref to insist that independence would be a seamless and comfortable transition. Part of that was insisting that there would never be a hard border between Scotland and the rUK. Given the flow of trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK, I can't imagine that the SNP would be so foolhardy to pursue a policy that would result in economic catastrophe. A hard border between Scotland and the rest of the UK would make the problems caused by Brexit seem like a picnic.

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    3. But they would encourage the EU to help us put in infrastructure to bypass English ports. The Irish also export via England - and Stranraer. This Brexit is a disaster.

      I used the Rosyth ferry a few times, but it was too expensive. If we got regular cheaper ferries from the East coast to Rotterdam or Calais then I would far rather sail on those than from Newcastle. I am not interested in going any further south.

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    4. You might not be all that interested in heading south, but there are a great deal of people who are interested in keeping an open border. Especially the people (And their families, friends, etc.) whose livelihoods depend on free movement across the UK. I don't think that a little EU investment in ports would be enough to make up for that.

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    5. Controls doesn't automatically mean a hard border.
      If it did then wave bye bye to peace in NI.

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    6. And what of those with relatives in Canada or Australia or New Zealand or Poland or France. If the English are proposing a hard border then its their own people who are going to be particularly affected by it. And its goods transiting through a non member state where it is a particular pain.

      It is not in England's interest to put up a hard border. Going into Switzerland from Germany you need to show your passport and buy a vignette to use the motorway. Its not a big deal.

      Are the zillions of illegal migrants desperate to take Englishmen's jobs going to swim the North Sea to get there? There is no good reason to have a hard border at Gretna. Iceland ( not in the EU ), Norway ( in the EFTA) and the members of the Nordic Council all are free to move between each other freely. Other than spite or xenophobia, why would England want to put up a barrier which affects their own people most?

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    7. I used the Rosyth ferry a lot, as I was often in Belgium and France. It may have been a bit expensive, but what you lost in money you far and away gained in relaxation, sleep and time compared with heading for Dover by car. If it re-started tomorrow, I'd have no hesitation in using it.

      Derek

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  15. This is a very interesting piece by Alasdair Stirling.It highlights yet another possibility in a sea of possibilities.Most of them look highly improbable until you consider that Theresa May doesn't want to fight an indyref2,nor does she want to ban the Scots from having one.

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  16. Another possible scenario might be that the EU,in negotiations, recognises Scotland as a state within the EU without the need for another referendum (Scots having already decided to remain through a referendum).
    Sovereign state recognition is mainly about being accepted by other bodies as being so and in many aspects,Scotland already fulfils most of the required credentials in international law.
    This would satisfy the democratic decision of Scots to remain within the EU and importantly continue to be subject to EU laws and rights.
    Who could object?
    Can only really think of one entity and they would be dealing with the 27 states of the EU and not just one.

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    1. Scots did indeed decide to remain within the EU, but that is an entirely different question from the one asked on 18th Sept 2014. As much as I'm eager to leave the cesspit that is the UK, we can't do so in the absence of a clear majority who agree with that. What you are suggesting is well on the way to being chicanery, and if we are to leave the UK, there HAS to be a clear, unequivocal majority of Scots.
      Alex Birnie

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    2. Glasgow Working Class 2July 21, 2016 at 7:43 PM

      Strange language to use 'cesspit'. I assume you are not part of the cess! Anyone south of the Scottish border I assume.

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    3. The poster above is a far-right racist troll from EnglandJuly 21, 2016 at 7:49 PM

      .

      Delete
    4. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor.

      Delete
  17. Why do people even acknowledge the mentally disturbed trolley. He is genuinely suffering from hallucinations and paranoia. No point communicating as he is operating on the left side of cerebellum only.

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  18. go home and eat your porridge would have worked better

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  19. Glasgow Working Class 2July 21, 2016 at 7:55 PM

    James young lad you are aware that Scotland voted NAW in our referendum and those who voted at that time should have known the Tories were going to have an EU referendum. Now if we had voted to leave the Union then we would have been out of the EU. The only conclusion I can come to is the Scots do not put as much credence on the EU as political commentators would suggest. The people are hardly rioting in the streets!

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    1. Still waiting on you idiot. I know why you bottled it. You are really Kezia Dugdale that is why she is posted missing. How's your far left getting on Oh that's right nobody votes for them loser!!!

      Delete
    2. Glasgow Working Class 2July 21, 2016 at 11:21 PM

      Paul, wan heider
      and you would be dribbling at the mooth an greetin fur yer maw ya wee tollie.

      Delete
    3. The poster above is a far-right racist troll from EnglandJuly 21, 2016 at 11:41 PM

      .

      Delete
    4. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor.

      Delete
    5. Glasgow Working Class 2July 22, 2016 at 1:00 AM

      Fred Dibnah from the grave says you are a tosser eeh by gum lad an never worked a day in yer life.

      Delete
    6. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor.

      Delete
    7. Nadine, my darling. Have you been drinking again? Not prosecco, I hope. You know how it makes you silly. Off to bed, now, my loveliness.

      Delete
  20. Of course there are two relevant examples a lot closer to home than China. Both the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are outside the EU (and even the UK) although they share the same currency as the UK (or a separate pound pegged 1 to 1 with sterling?). Westminster is responsible for Defence and Foreign Affairs, but that's all. So if it can be done for them, why not (in reverse as far as the EU is concrned) Scotland?

    ... although I think we all know that the answer is that Westminster would never willingly give us that amount of autonomy as to grant it would render all Unionist arguments stone dead.

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  21. The border issue would be problematic but not impossible (unlike HK we have a continuous land border with rUK). If WM agrees to some movement of people with the EU (which looks unavoidable), then the border issue with Scotland is not so much of a problem. It requires the EU-Scotland people movement agreement to be compatable with the rUK-EU people movement agreement. Not easy but certainly doable with a bit of political will. EU political will should be no problem, but I do suspect WM poilitical wioll for such an arrangement6 woill be less forthcoming. Still, this is where soime heavy leverage from the EU would come in handy.

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  22. I suspect the fudge on free movement may be that if rUK were to accept free movement over its border with Ireland and an Independent Scotland then the EU will agree to partial single market access.

    This allows rUK to close its border with France where most of their immigrants enter. Given the lack of passenger ferries (and clearly no tunnel) from mainland Europe to Scotland and Ireland it gives them something to present back to their electorate as an element of control.

    I would suspect the French would be ok with this if rUK's access to the free market excludes some banking rights and banks are encouraged to relocate to France.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bumblefuck tories for unityJuly 22, 2016 at 1:32 PM

      The Cameroons and economic tories would go ballistic at the thought of cutting the balls off the City of London and handing them over to the French on a plate. Not to mention waving cheerio to most of the tories big city funding.

      But a political party maintains a healthy relationship with their membership so they always have access to funding for the essentials of campaigning.


      Krishnan Guru-MurthyVerified account ‏@krishgm

      The Conservatives have started offering refunds to people who joined the party after referendum thinking they'd have a say in leadership


      Oh right! LOL


      On 'deals', horsetrading only gets you so far when it involves 27 others who usually prefer to speak with one voice. They might just insist on that if they grow tired of the 3 comedy Brexiteer idiots trying to cut deals behind their backs.

      Delete
  23. Incompetent Blairites of Mass Destruction #ChickenCoupJuly 22, 2016 at 1:06 PM

    Michael Deery ‏@Michael_Deery 2 hours ago

    'Corbyn told me to vote with my conscience but I don't even have one,' cried the Labour MP #LabourBullying

    ReplyDelete
  24. Incompetent Blairites of Mass Destruction #ChickenCoupJuly 22, 2016 at 1:07 PM

    Angry Salmond ‏@AngrySalmond 1 hour ago

    Jeremy Corbyn once sternly explained to me that Star Trek was better than Star Wars. #LabourBullying

    ReplyDelete
  25. Incompetent Blairites of Mass Destruction #Chickenhawks #ChickenCoupJuly 22, 2016 at 1:08 PM

    Alistair Davidson ‏@moh_kohn 1 hour ago

    There's something inevitable about the people who posture for others to kill and be killed in far away lands turning out to be wimps.

    ReplyDelete
  26. It is interesting to see Martin McGuinness talk up the prospect of a hard border between UK and ROI, which he is doing because it strengthens the case for Irish reunification. By contrast hard borders are an obstacle (possibly the biggest potential obstacle) to Scottish independence.

    Personally, I don't think hard borders will be necessary between UK and ROI or an indyScotland. The example of the Isle of Man has already been given. EU citizens (and even UK citizens) do not have the right to live and work in the IOM, yet it remains within the Common Travel Area, meaning there is no immigration control between IOM and UK or ROI. This is the same situation that would apply between BrexitUK and ROI or indyScotland.

    EU freedom of movement allows EU citizens to spend up to 3 months in any other EU country without any restriction. It is unlikely that the UK after Brexit would seek to restrict visits of less than 3 months from EU citizens, as that would impact on tourism. After 3 months EU member states can require those staying longer to register that they are doing so. Provided Ireland and indyScotland have such a registration system to keep a record of those exercising their right to live and work there, it should be possible for the British Isles to retain a common external immigration border, without needing internal borders.

    Of course things become more complicated if free trade of goods between the UK and EU is not retained after Brexit as then there is a need for customs controls. However, I think it is very likely that a customs union between the UK and EU will be retained and no need for tarrifs and restrictions on the free flow of goods.

    Even in a worse case scenario where there is no customs union, a hard border could be mitigated by a combination of online customs declarations by freight companies before leaving depots and spot checks of goods vehicles either at the border or at the registered departure or arrival depot. No need for cars to queue up at the border, just drive through a nothing to declare lane.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bumblefuck tories for unityJuly 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM

      "It is interesting to see Martin McGuinness talk up the prospect of a hard border between UK and ROI"

      Which is why May did the obvious thing and went over there to assuage fears and lay out in detail what was planned or at least outline what she and the tories wanted to happen.

      Or would have if the tories had the slightest idea what they were doing. Which they don't.


      Wish lists are fine as long as nobody confuses them with the absurdist idea that May and the tories are the ones in the position of strength to dictate anything. Quite the reverse.

      Everything will have a cost and it is exceedingly unlikely one wing of the tory party will be willing to swallow that cost happily. Be it on the immigration side for the Brexiteers or the economic/FOM side for the Cameroons and remainers.

      The entire EU referendum megashambles happened because Cameron tried and failed to appease his tory Eurosceptics. It was purely for internal tory party reasons. Scotland voted convincingly to stay IN and did so with no shortage of working class areas.

      So the idea that the blame for it's effects can be somehow shifted onto the SNP or anyone else is certainly an amusing one. But not one based in the real world we live in.

      Delete
    2. Glasgow Working Class 2July 22, 2016 at 9:31 PM

      There never was a hard border between the ROI and the North. That would screw up the black market.

      Delete
    3. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor.

      Delete
  27. Glasgow Working Class 2July 22, 2016 at 9:51 PM

    Bumbkefuck it was a UK referendum however the Scots not all chose the EU as the subsidy from the UK is getting less as the years pass. The EU will not subsidise Scotland.
    The Jocks need to live within their means and the better off need to pay more tax.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor.

      Delete
    2. Glasgow Working Class 2July 23, 2016 at 10:39 PM

      The troll advocates that you are a tosser and waiting for an explorer to discover you.

      Delete
    3. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor

      Delete
  28. This Hong Kong/ China arrangement might have legs and be relevant in the EU/Brexit context, but wouldn't it be administratively simpler and and more logical to create an EngSAR?

    ReplyDelete
  29. With regard to Scotlands constitutional arrangements,the will of the people is unsettled and so the status quo remains.However,the status quo is about to be pulled apart due to Brexit.Massive change is on the horizon what ever.Or is it?

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  30. If Scotland remain in the EU then what is the incentive for the NO voters to turn the the YES camp, none.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If we are just going to make random comments, and answer them ourselves, then I might as well join in......If an independent Scotland remains in the EU, then what is the incentive for No voters who wanted to stay in the EU to change their vote to yes? Total!
      Alex Birnie

      Delete
    2. Glasgow Working Class 2July 23, 2016 at 11:30 PM

      What is the incentive to remain in the EU? Is it so good that we will have a border with England? And where will Scottish surplus labour go if not allowed into England? You Nat sis Nat sis have so much hatred for England that you do not give a toss for the Scottish people.

      Delete
    3. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor

      Delete
    4. Glasgow Working Class 2July 24, 2016 at 10:00 AM

      You should advocate putting and end to your repetitive posts you sticky insect.

      Delete
    5. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor. The troll also dehumanises opponents by calling them insects.

      Delete
    6. Glasgow Working Class 2July 24, 2016 at 12:09 PM

      Sticky the sticky insect hates the English and the Scots that voted NAW. A real fash Nat si that hates democracy. Probably still being breast fed.

      Delete
    7. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor.

      Delete
    8. Glasgow Working Class 2July 24, 2016 at 2:51 PM

      I do praise May for accepting the democratic will of the British people inspite of her being on the losing side.
      Knickerless and Kim Jung Eck spent two years leading up to the Scottish referendum telling porkies and changing Nat si policy to pacify the intended NAW voters

      Delete
    9. The troll also advocates arming Leave campaigners to "defend democracy", uses racial and ethnic slurs while claiming they're not insults, praises Theresa May and displays a strange. perverted and poisonous obsession with the First Minister and her predecessor. The troll also dehumanises opponents by calling them insects.

      Delete