Tuesday, February 20, 2024

Peston was wrong: Labour MPs will yet again be whipped to abstain if the SNP's ceasefire motion goes to a vote

So the premise of my previous post turned out to be wrong, although in fairness to myself that was only because Robert Peston's sources proved to be wrong.  Keir Starmer and Labour will in fact not support the SNP motion calling for an immediate ceasefire, and will instead once again abstain unless their own amendment is passed, which would remove the call for Israel to stop the collective punishment of Palestinians, and would render the call for an immediate ceasefire rather hollow by adding an absurd line about Israel having the right to carry on with the violence if Hamas don't stop.  There's also a statement about Israel having the right to be free of any threat of a repeat of 7th October, but notably not a trace of any balancing language about the Palestinians having the right to be free of any repeat of the events since 7th October, or about Palestinians having the right to carry on with the violence if Israel don't stop attacking them.  I trust the SNP will not be remotely tempted to "compromise" on such an outrageous basis.

Much will now depend on whether the amendment passes, because if it does, there will be no proper vote on the actual text of the SNP motion, merely on the motion as amended.  That would be a very frustrating outcome, although from my vague recollection of Commons procedure, there may be a chance the Labour amendment won't even be selected by the Speaker - sometimes one amendment is selected and that's a government amendment, so the Tories may determine what happens.  If the Labour amendment does pass, it's really important that the SNP win the battle of competing narratives and make it abundantly clear that Labour weaseled out of a meaningful call for an unconditional stop to the violence.

Luke Akehurst of "Labour for Likud" will still be fuming regardless of what happens, though, because even the Labour amendment uses antisemitic language like "ceasefire" and "immediate".

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On this blog and on pretty much any blog where opinion polling is discussed, the subject of the famous Yes Minister scene about polling will inevitably come up from time to time, because it's such a compelling demonstration of how poll results can be manipulated.  Sir Humphrey uses Bernard as "the perfect balanced sample" to show how the same respondents will both support and oppose the reintroduction of National Service, depending on how they've just been primed by four preceding leading questions.  As a bit of fun, Ipsos have just polled two Britain-wide samples using Sir Humphrey's exact questions to see if he was right, and what's fascinating is that they very nearly proved him wrong.  It would have been a bit irritating if they had done, because the beloved scene would have seemed somewhat tarnished as a result! 

By a narrow margin of 45% to 38%, Britons support National Service after being led along the positive question sequence, and oppose National Service by 48% to 34% after being led along the negative question sequence.  So Sir Humphrey was right, but only just, and it turns out that impressively high numbers of respondents are resistant to leading question wording.  They must have a stronger sense of self than Bernard Woolley.

78 comments:

  1. And I was wrong too. Mea culpea.

    Big mistake by Starmer. Bonkers, really.

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  2. Britnats will use and abuse the rules to suit themselves. SNP and Alba MPs are fools for playing along with it all. Sinn Fein has the right idea.

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  3. Correct - “ although from my vague recollection of Commons procedure, there may be a chance the Labour amendment won't even be selected by the Speaker”

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    1. On opposition day debates, the convention is for the opposition to table a motion, then the government to table ammendments will be what is voted on.

      The Tories have tabled an ammendment, hence convention would dictate the SNP motion and Tory ammendments

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  4. Gaza shmaza. So bored of the SNP trying to deflect attention from their own failings with somebody else's war.
    The top five stories on the National's website tonight are about Gaza. It's the only subject the FM shows any conviction about.
    Is this it now? Do we have to wait for peace in the Middle East before we're allowed to have a conversation about Scottish independence again?

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    1. There is no linkage of any substance. The two matters are functionally separate. So: no, there is no need to wait on account of Middle East politics or conflicts.

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  5. What’s happening in the Middle East is terrible, there’s no doubt about that. However there’s sadly little anybody in this country can do. If Israel was going to listen to anyone it would be Joe Biden, but they’re not, so what chance is there of them listening to the SNP?

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    1. This country as you call it, the UK, could stop giving Israel money, stop trading with it and stop giving it arms and ammunition. It could also vote for a ceasefire in the UN?

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    2. Trust people's actions, not their words.

      UK supports IDF atrocities with its arms suppliers. Israel doesn't even need to get down and plead for it like Ukraine does.

      But what does give Israel nightmares is BDS. They kick up a storm every time an American politician dares to try it.

      Back up your words and boycott, Starmer.

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  6. Terence Callachan Dundee here , look , SNP can never ever ever be seen to present a motion of great importance that succeeds , nothing to do with competition between SNP and Labour or SNP and Conservative or SNP and Lib Dem , no no no this is true because its the bettertogether campaign , its still going , ten years later and will continue until Scotland is an independent country .SNP is hated in Westminster , when are people going to realise that England in its parliament hates Scotland because Scotland becoming independent will overnight show England to be the small country it really is.England have always press ganged other countries to make itself look big.

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  7. Labour shadow on Defence tonight on C4 news has the gall to say Starmer has been calling for a ceasefire for weeks. Prince Willy of Wales suddenly getting a big exercised by the genocide in Gaza as well now. Even Piers Morgan who back in October was all guns blazing for Israel to attack attack is now rowing back. All these people will soon be rewriting history and telling us all that they were always against the genocide. Disgusting people the lot of them.

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    1. This Labour prick Healey says the IDF are NOW threatening a human catastrophe in Rafa. What the hell does he think has been happening for the last 3.5 months. Does he think the Palestinians have been going on camping holidays. The USA once again has vetoed a UN Resolution calling for a ceasefire.

      All of the above are responsible for letting loose the XL bully dog that is the IDF on the people of Gaza.

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  8. SNP leadership deserve credit.

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    1. Stature in growing, sureness-of-touch much much. Agree we all can.

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    2. SNP leadership deserve a kick up the arse. What about OUR independence, guys? You’re in the British parliament, not the bloody Knesset. Spare us some thought would you?

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    3. The SNP are rightly concerned about Gaza. This is not about petty party politics or trying to score points against other political parties. That would be wrong.

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    4. Politicians playing politics? Perish the very thought!

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    5. I think it’s pretty obvious the SNP are trying to make political gain out of this tragic situation, just as Sturgeon did during Covid.

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    6. There is a balance to be strick between playing politics and standing up for your principles.

      SNP deserve credit on this issue so far, in my view. If the political capital is to be gained from it, that's a biproduct but it's based on the party's principles. Same as trying to manage a pandemic for the benefit of our people, just as Northern Italy and other "regions" did.

      Politics is about saying what you believe to be right and having the people take a view on that. Its the essence of politics. If it shows differences, that's the point.

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  9. But wait, what are the Tories voting? Really are they letting a motion pass asking for an immediate ceasefire?

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    1. The Tories will vote no and it will fail, of course. Everyone takes that for granted. This is merely a posturing exercise to make Labour look bad. Don’t worry yourself, it’s not about actually helping Gaza.

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    2. This is about SNPs rightful concern for Gaza and is not politiking.

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    3. Vote SNP: Stronger for Gaza.

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    4. Canvassers chap door.

      Canvassers: Hello. Like you we are appalled—APPALLED—at what's going on in…
      Punter: Hey, you're the SNP, right?
      Canvassers: Yes, as we were saying. The gruesome spectacle of political cowardice going on in…
      Punter: See, me and the missus are on the fence for independence. I'd like to know what you're really going to do about the border. We're surely going to be in Europe or EFTA or the like while England stays out, so it'll be a frontier of the…
      Canvassers: Sorry, you ARE NOT LISTENING. We are APPALLED, SHOCKED I say, about the situation in…
      Punter: And the wife she's really hung up on our future currency. Are we going to join the Euro? Will we be lumbered with the wrong interest rate for Scotland's needs? Or if we launch our own currency, what will the exchange rate…
      Canvassers: For goodness sake. All this prattling on about nothing in particular when squirrels are happening abroad! You, sir, are part of the problem. Your obsession with parochial concerns makes me sick.

      Oh, here's a leaflet and a coupon for the National.

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    5. Too negative towards SNP stand.

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    6. Just stand up for bloody Scotland, will you? Is that so much to ask?

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    7. So the SNP a party that wants Scotland to play a full part in world politics is just to stay silent on the matter? Don't be daft.

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    8. A motion for Peace on Earth does not create world peace. Shocker, I know.

      Two motions, though: now we’re talking!

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    9. Well, according to Dan Hodges, if British politicians would just call on Hamas to release the hostages, Hamas would be magically forced to release the hostages and a ceasefire would magically follow. Indeed, he says this is the *only* way a ceasefire can be brought about. Which I presume means a ceasefire has already happened, because every British politician I can think of has already called for the hostages to be released umpteen times.

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  10. In other news: YET ANOTHER failed Trident test. A damn fine nuclear deterrent that flops as soon as you whap it out your trousers, UK.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/21/labour-seeks-trident-assurances-after-missile-test-anomaly

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    1. The Ministry of Defence assures the Guardian that Vanguard passed the shakedown exercise with flying colours, as the minister's tea was optimal, the periscope well polished, and the sailors uniforms superbly ship shaped. The fact the nuclear missile flopped like a drunken seal on launch was but a minor mishap, and a delightful spot of comic relief for the chaps on board. Worse things happen at sea, joked the captain.

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  11. The BBC article I read this morning attempts to give the impression Labour are being more grown up as they are mentioning both Israel and Hamas, rather than the SNP motion which is stronger on one side.

    I've not been followed this in great detail but it seems Labour are seeking a ceasefire?

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    1. No, they're just pretending to. They clearly want the war to go on, otherwise they would have backed the SNP motion.

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    2. It's all pure posturing, anyway. If there were a Labour government, and a potential majority in Westminster for passing such a resolution, the stakes would be real. But they're not. It's sandcastles.

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    3. In fairness I think everyone outside of the protagonists want a ceasefire. I dont think Labour, Tories or SNP are that evil.

      The question people are seeking to answer is how to make it sustainable peace. They're all onto plums though as both Hamas and Israels current actions have already set the next round in motion in 8 or so years after this has "died down". The murderers on both sides are consumed by hate based on grievances regardless of who's right or wrong on the political level. A kid in Gaza losing his parents is going to grow up hating Israel. A kid in one of the border towns is going to grow up hating Palestine and on we go in the circle of doom.

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    4. Which is precisely why it’s none of our business. America is the power which props up Israel. It’s their game.

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    5. Nonsense, it was Britain that precipitated half the problems in the first place and stating our position is entirely legitimate. Could say the same about uigers and apartheid, none of our business.

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    6. Israel isn’t listening to America. What chance is there of them listening to Britain? They certainly won’t be taking any notice of the SNP, that’s for sure.

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    7. Let's assume that is correct for the sake or argument, what precisely is the problem highlighting their opinion? They're a political party, representing people's views is what they're supposed to do. They're not the local butchers. Perplexed by this.

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    8. A vote on telling off Israel (that’s doomed to be lost as the Tories are against it anyway) achieves diddly squat for Palestine or Scotland.

      Quit wasting your parliamentary time on guff and kick up a storm for Scotland! Use it or lose it. Labour’s MPs won’t do it for you.

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    9. Kicking up for Scotland is representing actual Scottish peoples' concerns about an international conflict causing death. Guff. Deary me.

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    10. Just so we're clear, Labour and the Tories are the big boys and only they should state their opinions on international issues of humanitarian war? What a smalltime way of thinking about our nation. It reduces us as a people.

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  12. What any government says publicly is unimportant, that's solely for the consumption of local voters, a pacification if you like
    The whole Israel Gaza question has been decided and agreed upon beforehand
    The West needs and wants the Arabs gone and Israel powerful in total charge of that chunk of land solidly an ally of the West so that Putin can't get his war in the middle east going dividing up Western cash and forces from battling him
    Israel will do what's already been agreed upon, if they need to wipe out every man woman child and dog leaving the place a desert then that's what'll happen, and the West will breath a sigh of relief while publicly and roundly condemning Israel for the terrible atrocities
    Netanyahu will resign and a new guy will take his place and we'll be told he's a humanitarian nice man that want's a two state solution and we'll all work together to do that
    And it'll all be prearranged Mince on a stick, dripping off it as they promise peace will stick honest it will

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    1. Not enough pressure has been brought to bear to finalise the two state solution but the idea the west want the Arabs "gone" is not conducive to stability or western diplomacy. All sides are truly aware nobody is going anywhere.

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    2. Gaza sure looks less full than it used to…

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    3. The glib comment above doesn't change the fact there are no Western leaders wanting genocide. Complete nonsense.

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  13. Hamas has already put forward a proposal for the release of all the hostages and a permanent ceasefire. It was rejected by Israel - make no mistake - Netahanyu wants the killing to continue.

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  14. That's a year now since Sturgeon ran away from being FM. You no longer hear from the WGD/SNP numpties about her being offered a top notch international job from all her admirers across the globe. All we have heard from a few WGD numpties is ( like the Boris Johnston supporters) some hopeful mutterings that she will make a comeback as FM. You never hear them suggesting that she may resurrect her career as a solicitor - that isn't going to happen as she left the legal profession under a very dark cloud. Now that she has passed her driving test she cannae even take the motorhome out for a wee jaunt as it is still in a polis compound. So what is she doing with her time and what should she do next. Is she reading a lot more books now - no wait a minute she must be writing her own work of fiction entitled " How I faked It and Ran Away".

    It's long overdue she let her husband out of the garden shed - he has not been seen for many months. The polis may be back at their house digging up the back garden for a body in the near future if there is no sighting of him but at present they are occupied with wanting to re-interview SNP staff about the SNP finances. What an SNP legacy the Murrells have left but nicophants still love them or is it just her? Remember Sturgeon threw him under the bus when she said she was totally innocent of any wrongdoing. With regards to hubby Peter she said he can speak for himself. I say to Sturgeon let him out the garden shed so we can hear what he has to say.

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    1. You are a really hateful person

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    2. Anon at 2.07pm It wisnae me who tried to put an innocent man in prison for potentially the rest of his life. Now that is truly hateful actions. I note you do not dispute any points I made.

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    3. They never do, do they?

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    4. The Israeli's, as per Trump, like their very high walls. I wouldn't be surprised if they put up a high wall separating north Gaza from South Gaza fairly soon. They just need to get the remaining Gazans/ Hamas out the North. More land for the colonial settlers to colonise in the future.

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  15. I'm not a SNP member but to accuse Nicola Sturgeon of running away is just nonsensical, the woman and her family were under a deluge of death threats with 2 or 3 guys currently in jail serving sentences for it
    How do we know she wasn't under the same threats from UK
    Be fair for goodness sake she was the most under pressure politician in Britain from every angle
    How would you like people coming round your or your parents house shoving excrement through the door and threatening to kill them
    I don't know all the reasons for her getting out but I don't think it's because she was any kind of thief or anything to do with all this police crap

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    1. 600k ring a bell?

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    2. Anon at 2.06pm - you say Sturgeon didn't run away but you just said she ran away because of death threats. So she ran away. You just prefer your reasons for her running away. Your post is illogical - nonsensical even

      You say "police crap". So I'll ask you some questions:
      1. Where is the "ring fenced " money?
      2. Why was a secret motor home purchased and sat on Murrells mother's driveway for years unused?
      3. Why did Murrell provide the SNP with secret undeclared loans?
      4. Why did Murrell continually lie about the SNP membership numbers?
      5. Why did the polis arrest and interview Sturgeon, Murrell and Beattie?
      6. You say Sturgeon is innocent but not the other two arrested and interviewed. Are they guilty then? What info do you have that tells you they are innocent and the other two not.

      I suspect you will run away like Sturgeon.

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    3. I've never heard of these 'death threats' before. Sounds like made up pish to me. In any case, the Internet is full of keyboard warriors making empty threats - nobody takes it seriously

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    4. You've never heard of any death threats? but you'll invent a scenario in which nobody cares, when what you mean is you don't care
      The threats were real and attempts were made on five separate occasions over the years, and not just keyboard warriors like yourself who don't care what Scotland turns out to be as long as you think you've got what you want

      It's no wonder Alex Salmond will never be elected again by Scotland when people like you represent this fraud of a man
      You should be ashamed of what has happened not delighted

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    5. Anon at 2.06pm - so you choose to run away just like Sturgeon - no answer to my questions

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  16. New Record!!
    7 (seven) consecutive headlines about Gaza on The National's website.
    If you're part of the 54% Yes, I'm afraid you'll have to scroll down a while to find anything about indy!

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    1. Fundamentally, it is about the Palestinian right to self determination. It is standing up against colonialism. We may not be getting bombed but the same basic rights are missing in Scotland and Palestine.

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    2. IFS, dear oh dear. Talk about exaggeration!

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    3. Dear oh dear my troll has turned up again with nothing of value - well nothing at all actually - to say.

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    4. Get a grip, the reason nobody takes The National seriously has been that all it ever talks about is parochial SNP/Indy matters.

      A more considered view would give it a credibility which might means people take it slightly more seriously.

      As a committed independence supporter, being overly obsessed with independence, at a time of crisis of other issues, actually doesn't win over our people. It makes you look tinpot.

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    5. The reason we are obsessed about it is that after nearly a decade of missed opportunities the SNP STILL don't know what they're indy strategy is (and Humza certainly seems confused about it). We also have no idea what the plan is when the UK government flat refuses to negotiate (which they already have said they would do).
      So forgive me for hoping the SNP might actually do what they were elected to do rather than meaningless posturing about a war between two sets of genocidal maniacs thousands of miles away.

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  17. Labour will be pleased with how the vote is turning out, SNP now backing their amendment. It’s not really a win for Scottish Labour, our attentive branch office, instead for them it’s about not giving the SNP a stick to beat them with. Job done, it seems.

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    1. For the SNP this is absolutely not about petty party politics within Scotland such as what you mention. It is in fact about helping the people in Gaza who have suffered too severely in recent weeks and months..

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    2. Today the SNP have played a key role in the House, raising their position, profile, influence and power. Which deserves a lot of credit.

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    3. “ Today the SNP have played a key role in the House, raising their position, profile, influence and power. Which deserves a lot of credit” - yawn 🥱

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    4. My reading of some of the above posts is: for the SNP this is about the SNP.

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    5. Meanwhile Tel Aviv City Council have passed a motion calling for Scotland to leave the UK and the world agrees 😂😂😂😂😂

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    6. I'm confused by the comment above. Is it the case that only some parties should put forward amendments about world events? What a parochial and small minded, and in the circumstances of what's going on, quite sad view.

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    7. It's that the whole thing is pointless. Nothing the British Parliament says will make a jot of difference in Gaza, whichever party proposes it. You may not like that, you may think it's parochial, but it's the world of realpolitik, all the rest is empty virtue signalling.

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    8. Anon 5.54: today the SNP have shown they have maturity and a seriousness of approach that ensures they have to be taken more seriously by other MPs in the House as an opposition.

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    9. Where’s the block button on this site?

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    10. anon at 5.54: Totally disagree, the British Parliament is a small cog in a Western world of medium sized entities with different views meandering towards consensuses that shape world events. The idea of just abdicating all "big boy" stuff to Washington doesn't make short term or long term sense. As well as being undemocratic and unrepresentative of constituent views. Even the US has to consider what it's allies are saying ocassionally, and certainly it helps opposition senators point to a western consensus. To be honest, I think your view that it's just virtue signalling is as shallow as the word virtue signalling.

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    11. Well we'll see what difference it makes to the situation in the Middle East. About as much as all those previous UN resolutions have on bringing peace to the region I'll wager. Nothing shallow about it, I'm a realist and bleeding your heart over the Internet is just virtue signalling to me.

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  18. Not sure what the public will make of all of this. Except general bewilderment.

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  19. Off you go now, number one SNP fan. Here’s an opportunity for you to say how wonderful your party is…. Etc. etc.

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