Wednesday, December 15, 2021

Carrot and stick: The Wishous Circle

"We cannot risk calling a referendum unless we are 100% certain of victory.  To lose again would be catastrophic, there would be no possibility of a third referendum."

"Your premise that there can't possibly be a third referendum seems a bit dubious, but if you really think you're right about that, clearly it's always going to be far too risky to hold a second referendum, because referendums are fundamentally unpredictable things and there would never be a 100% chance of victory.  So it looks like the onus is on you to come up with an alternative to a referendum.  What do you propose?"

"A referendum is the ONLY conceivable route to independence! It's the gold standard!  It's the only mandate the international community would ever regard as valid!  To depart from the one true golden path is deeply irresponsible!"

"Well, departing from it wasn't my idea, but it seemed to be the inescapable logic of your own position.  OK, so you're now saying a referendum is our path to independence.  When are we going to hold one?"

"We cannot risk calling a referendum!"

"OK, so what's your alternative to a referendum?"

"A referendum is the ONLY conceivable route to independence!"

"This sounds like a vicious circle."

"You're only saying that because you're a BLOGGER.  Urgh.  Shudder."

"You seem pretty disgusted about me being a blogger."

"I am.  In fact I'm going to write a blogpost about how disgusted I am and call it The Blog That Everyone's Talking About."

"Doesn't that make you a blogger too?"


"Would you like a carrot?"

"Oh yes, I'd love one, thanks so much."

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You can catch up with my Scot Goes Popcast interview with iScot editor Ken McDonald HERE (on video) or HERE (audio only).


  1. Every time I see this ever decreasing circular argument from SNP leaders I ask myself how many nations who repatriated their sovereignty sought it via referendum? I believe it's zero. Those who achieved it by electing people with spines & gumption have. The current SNP are a disgrace.

  2. The SNP is a party for political cowards. They are a disgrace to Scotland.

  3. IndyRef3 or IndyRef4 or IndyRef5 - as many as it takes - anything else is dictatorship

  4. The poster John Muir posts on WGD the exact words of a post he claims he has posted to SGP and says let's see if it is posted on SGP. This is bizarre stuff.

    John is a do nothing about independence slowly slowly catchee monkey type of guy when it comes to independence. A bit like a younger Pete Wishart. You know the now is never the right time sort of guy. Bravehearts these people are NOT.

    PS this is the real INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND and not some saddo numpty impersonator.

    1. That's truly bizarre. John Muir has not even attempted to post here recently, but I see he's claiming to have been "nixed in moderation". Their stunts are getting ever more elaborate and peculiar. "Ah well" as the man himself would say.

    2. In fact, to be absolutely specific, I've searched my email account and the last time John Muir attempted to comment on Scot Goes Pop was way back on 5th November. It was a perfectly reasonable comment about voting systems so I almost certainly published it. God knows what he's playing at, or why he's doing it - maybe he's been "radicalised" over the last month, as Mark McGeoghegan would say.

    3. You did publish his comment in November. Oddly enough, he doesn't seem to understand the STV system as his complaint was that his vote eventually transferred to the tory who was eighth and last on his list of preferences. He didn't seem to understand that he's under no obligation to rank EVERY candidate on the ballot. A true numpty as IFS would say

  5. I've resigned myself to the fact that independence will not come about because of a referendum. Here's why, and it's very simple.

    The 2011 election caught everyone on the hop. The SNP had only a few years to campaign from a relatively poor starting position, and the UK govt. decided (correctly as it turns out) that acceding to a referendum was the best thing to do because it looked like democracy was being served, and they would win. It was a closer call than they expected, but they got away with it.

    The problem now is that the UK will now NEVER 'allow' or recognise a referendum if there's the slightest chance that they'll lose it, and the SNP will (arguably sensibly) never actually get around to holding one if they in turn don't reckon they can win it.

    The inescapable conclusion is that independence is not going to come about via a referendum.

    Time to come up with that plan B boys & girls (& non-binaries).

  6. The carrot question must be extended to the whole of Scotland to be fair. I object to losing out on 16 points.

  7. You are asked to believe that the SNP members will deliver independence for Scotland. They cannae even deliver independence for their own political party.

  8. Well the competition between WGD NUMPTIES hots up with this from the well kent liar Scottish Skier.

    " Does very much look like ex-pat Scots/new English in the South of England were lying and the SNP do want independence soon."

    You really cannae keep a good WGD numpty down can you. Let's look at this statement:

    the SNP want independence - evidence for this - Nicola says so.

    soon - evidence for this - Nicola says when Covid crisis is over - the numpty Skier is therefore forecasting Covid will be over soon. Whatever soon actually means.
    Numpties will be numpties.

    1. Imposter try thinking up your own name and your own words.

  9. What is the problem with the comfy slippers crowd?
    Are they worried about their pensions? About their salary at Westminster? We can pay that for them. We could even pay them more!
    After independence there will be a lot of work to do, so we could use a Senate to help with the parliamentary work. Just move the MPs to that, add a few more people (even Ruth!), and pay them the same. Over a few years we can cut their numbers as the workload is reduced.
    But they like the good life, and they want a good job somewhere interesting - who doesn't?
    There are about 200 countries in the world and we would need ambassadors in at least half of those, plus extras at the UN, the EU, NATO and on all the international bodies we'd be joining. Who would want to be our ambassador in Brussels, Paris, Washington...?
    There would be more good jobs, and more comfy slippers, than we have MP's and MSP's combined. Can we afford to pay them? I'd rather pay them for working for us as senators or ambassadors than pay Westminster.
    We're big enough, rich enough and clever enough to do this. It's just a pity that so many at the top of the SNP aren't.

  10. Personally I think a stronger case can be made for an FM who has a mandate for a referendum and fails to action it to resign than an FM who actions the mandate but loses the referendum.

    That does mean in my opinion Sturgeon should have resigned years ago. It is better to try and fail than be a coward who does nothing.

    The real thing posting not some pathetic numpty imposter.

    1. (She can act No Ref required or S30,s )she and her cabal are destroying lives destroying Scotland and #NoActionSnp sit comfy lying lying and lying Again. Wid love t stick her and her tsunami where the sun don’t shine along we her Cabal n Rotten carrots.We can be out tomorrow she lies as she wants her way Again! Meanwhile lives are destroyed job losses homes lost lives lost She and her Cabal paid we our hard earned taxes are failing everyone of us #NoActionSnp are responsible them alone.

  11. Despite everything 12,032 people still voted for the Tories in North Shropshire. 31.6% of the vote. Scotland and England two different countries but one of them still controls the other one like a colony. We need political leaders who can get Scotland out of this union with people who can vote for a clown like Johnson. The current lot leading the SNP are only any good at making false promises and moaning about the Tories.

  12. Dilly ding dong Bojo
    It's all going wrong.
    And here comes Omicron.