Monday, December 23, 2024

54% for Yes on the standard independence question is more than enough - it's plenty enough

It's not the normal practice of our resident Brit Nat troll KC (who I recently found was self-identifying as a youthful Italian stallion on Twitter) to tell direct lies - he normally takes something with a very small grain of truth in it and spins it for all he's worth.  But he broke that habit today by lying through his teeth.  In two comments that I've since deleted, he falsely claimed that the recent 54% for independence in the Norstat poll was merely from another hypothetical, conditional question and was based on the idea that independence would lead to everyone in Scotland being given a large lump sum payment.  That's complete rubbish - it was the standard independence question 'Should Scotland be an independent country?' and there was no jiggery-pokery at all.  It will have been asked by Norstat at the start of the question sequence and so repondents will not have been affected in any way by the leading wording of the supplementary questions that were posed later in the sequence on behalf of Believe in Scotland.

However, I think this highlights one of the dangers of the hypothetical "would you vote for independence if condition X applied?" questions, because they've led people to start talking as if the 54% on the standard question somehow isn't good enough and that we instead need a "Yes supermajority".  In fact, Yes 54%, No 46% is an almost exact reversal of the 2014 referendum result - the winning margin of which BBC journalists repeatedly referred to at the time as "decisive" (almost as if they'd received an order from on high to call it that).

And yet we know John Swinney isn't remotely interested in pressing home for independence with anything that might look like a slender Yes majority - his plan seems to be to do nothing until there is overwhelming public backing for independence.  There are two ways of interpreting that stance - either a) he's the de facto devolutionist that his critics portray him as, or b) he's genuinely trying to achieve independence by the slow road, and has in mind the precedent of devolution finally being achieved when the majority in favour of it was so huge that it could be safely described as a "settled will".

But there's one huge problem with the devolution precedent.  It took a genuinely pro-devolution Labour government in London to actually give effect to Scotland's settled will in the late 1990s.  No matter how high the Yes vote goes, there is never going to be a pro-independence government in London, so sooner or later the SNP themselves will have to force the issue.  If Mr Swinney is serious about independence, he will eventually have to confront the "process" problem, whether he likes it or not.  Supermajorities in opinion polls are not somehow self-enacting, although you'd occasionally be forgiven for thinking some in the SNP's "slow boat" faction believe they are.  "The barriers will just melt away", etc, etc.

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41 comments:

  1. You’re correct James, 54% is enough.

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    1. It's double the support at the start of IndyRef 1, so not a bad place to start from.

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    2. Indeed. Nobody can deny it’s VERY encouraging.

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  2. 50% plus 1 vote should be enough. It is enough elsewhere, but remember who you are dealing with - they will attempt to move the goalposts. E.g. this bullshit in the scotsman, funny, but serious

    https://archive.ph/qxU3O

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    1. This. 50%+1 should be enough!

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    2. the scotsman wants 60% or 66% and a 2 out of 3, with a 20 year gap - total gerrymandering

      but hey, westminster govts are elected on 35% of a 50% turnout and it is "democracy"

      - why not an annual referendum on staying in the union, which need to be won by 75% of the electorate, otherwise we revert to the original nations?

      is that not fair?

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    3. Gotta say I agree with that.

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    4. I accept it, like the majority.

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    5. Eh..........the most recent polling clearly showed that 'the majority' have definitely NOT accepted BrexSHIT and want to Rejoin the Single Market, Customs Union and EU itself.
      And it was predominantly BritNATS who voted for that crap
      Apart from those minor details, you are spot on, pal...



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    6. I seem to have replied to a Brexshiteer BritNat post which was then deleted?

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    7. What the hell is Francis prattling on about?

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    8. Read my explanation, sonny.
      Ta much.

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  3. Agreed.
    54% on the day, would certainly be enough.
    But......the more the merrier and probably the easier, in the longer term.

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    1. It would be enough.

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    2. About the same time as you acquire yer first wee neuron???

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    3. Agree without reservation.

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    4. Christ.
      James is quick on the delete button tonight.
      That is the second Yoon Post I have replied to which has then disappeared!

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    5. It doesn't allow for free flowing debate. It's pretty crappy and just encourages trolling

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    6. Do we want an echo chamber?

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  4. I’m sure I’m not the only one eagerly awaiting the next Ipsos and Find Out Now polls.
    Could be mega.

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  5. "If Mr Swinney is serious about independence, he will eventually have to confront the "process" problem, whether he likes it or not."

    Spot on.

    Neither Swinney/SNP nor any of the other political parties claiming to be desirous of Scottish Independence have produced a credible pathway to establish such.

    All 'plans' that they have advocated allow for British interference involvement in, influence over and interference.

    Scotland's Cause will never be realised in such circumstances.

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  6. Nice to see the reform vote creaping up.. you know it make sense folks. There are about 1/3 of scottish nationalists that are conservartive with a small "c". Mind you I don't think few here know what conservatism means with a small "c"..

    Yes they are the elephant in the room.. the farmers and folk that work in engineering in Broxburn and Greggs puting in a full shift day in and day out.

    Yes the SNP may get a majority in 2026 but at the end of the day indy is over. Woke is past peak. The rest of the world is changing rapidly. If the SNP look like any serious threat the UK GOV.. my country.. British it says on my passport.will just change the law.

    We are getting a clear culture change forced on us day to day "Scots" and we don't like what we see! The bad thing is that I can't say more as I'll get accused of a hate crime. Our free speach is curtailed. James eventually they will come for you.. well Alba are doing this already to you.

    I suppose you'll call me "far right" but how are we going to get a balanced economy in an Indy Scotland without balancing the books?

    That means drilling like buggery in the North sea, cutting benefits to illegal migrants.. to encourage them to go home and support their own county, cutting taxes to encourage inward investment.. see Aregentina.. they seem to have turned things around.

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    1. They're not going to encourage "Scots" by telling them their support for independence doesn't matter.

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    2. Sorry, Anon at 10.25, but unless you emigrate, you'll die a citizen of both an independent Scotland and the European Union. It's got nothing to do with "Wokeness". Britain has had it, and ironically Reform will be the midwife of its demise.

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    3. You are entitled to your opinion, of course.
      My opinion is that Reform are Human Trash of the worst kind.
      Racist, White Supremacist, Far Right, Fascist Trash.
      Apart from that, they are not even a political party and have no 'policies' worth a shite.
      Farage's only 'legacy' in Scotland will be the BrexSHIT Disaster which the vast majority of Scots voted against and still hate and which even the idiots elsewhere who gave it support, now also want binned.
      Son of a stockbroker, privately schooled and an ex-commodities trader in the City of London, Farage attempts to portray himself as a friend of 'the working man/woman' are as false and pathetic as his attempt to get that other Racist Enoch Powell to endorse UKIP in 1994.
      Now hanging on the coat-tails of genuine imbecile Trump and demented God-Complexer Musk for finances, I reckon he will get chased out of Scotland with his slimy wee tail beteeen his legs, just like last time he appeared up here.
      BTW........The last time the UK had a 'balanced economy and balanced the books' was a full 24 years ago, WM has run a Deficit every single year for the past 40 years, apart from 2000/2001 - and also has a present National Debt of a gigantic £2.8 TRILLION.
      Merry Christmas, pal.

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  7. But there are not enough Scots who are that financially convinced enough to vote for indy on the day. Its a dream.. the reality is that global events are no longer condusive to indy. The world has changed dramatically... becoming polarised. You must (but I doubt it) be able to see (if you can take all events in the round) that Indy is no longer a priority. Get yourself out in Cambuslang, East Kilbride, Denny in Fife Inverness, the Black Isle .These folk can see the results of the SNP.. they smell shite and that coupled with global events makes indy OVER.



    "Sorry, Anon at 10.25, but unless you emigrate, you'll die a citizen of both an independent Scotland and the European Union" Thank you for wishing I'll live to 200 years old at least! I love your commitment and wish you good health too. Come on.. you must by now be able to see the writing on the wall for Indy.

    Funnily some in the SNP, Scots Nats associate a free Scotland.. for Scots.. I think its about 1/3 of the Nats. Maybe these folk think that immigration should be curbed,t hey may take a view "Scotland for the Scots"? Now that is a bit tricky when the other 2/3 want to go all woke, have mass immigration and let men into womens toilets!

    I'm all ears!

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    1. "Come on.. you must by now be able to see the writing on the wall for Indy."

      Oh, I do love your bluster! Let's face it, it's yourself that you're trying to convince. You and I both know the era of Union is drawing inexorably to a close.

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  8. "Sorry, Anon at 10.25, but unless you emigrate, you'll die a citizen of both an independent Scotland and the European Union"

    Why don't you come up with some reasoned argument as to why you think so and how you are going to force Indy through.

    The public can smell the grift coming off the SNP. That in itself means its over. I feel for you if you have supported Indy all your life.. but it really is over. Maybe time to move an and do something else?

    The Wee dug fella for example will keep milking the nats, James will keep doing his stats and folk like me will post in the hope that some of you willl get back to work and do something for your local community.





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    1. Bloody cheek. Why don't you get back to work, I doubt if you've done a day's honest work in your entire life. It's probably your own lack of producivity that has brought the UK to the brink of destruction. Own it. You're certainly the only scrounger on this page.

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  9. "Bloody cheek. Why don't you get back to work, I doubt if you've done a day's honest work in your entire life. It's probably your own lack of producivity that has brought the UK to the brink of destruction. Own it. You're certainly the only scrounger on this page. "

    Typical uninformed response and that is why Indy won't happen. Shoot the messenger why don't you. Feeling a bit guilty at your end maybe? What would you say if it turned out that I had contributed a lot more than you in tax? Probably more deflection from you.. another excuse.. another day..and most Scots are sick of your rubbish now.. they no longer believe you.

    You have a mountain to climb to rebuild what used to be the intergrity the SNP had. Strugeon exposed the dream and feathered her nest at your expense.

    Grow up, recognise things have changed, address the issues and give us some ideas, make your case for indy.

    Come on lets hear it..maybe in a modern context if you can manage that level of intellect and comprehension.

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    1. "What would you say if it turned out that I had contributed a lot more than you in tax?"

      It won't. Repent and make a charitable donation from your welfare benefits. For symbolic reasons, please do so BEFORE the dissolution of the UK. You'll need to get your skates on.

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    2. Pride comes before the fall! I think you mean the “Truth will set you free” come on what about dealing with the issues rather than deflecting.If you have paid more tax than I have then you should be financially competent and be able to put forward a good case for indy. Come on demonstrate your grasp of economics don’t be shy!

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    3. I may consider following instructions from you once you've repented for your decades of scrounging and made a long overdue donation to charity. Let me know once you've done it.

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    4. I think we are both off the hook as James will delete once he eh “finishes” what ever xxx

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    5. To clarify. Imagine You came back from the line dancing and found out piss discussion on your blog!

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  10. Okey-doke. Taking that Norstat poll for the Sunday Times we get with don't knows excluded, for the constituency vote:

    SNP 37%
    Lab 21%
    Con 14%
    Reform 12%
    LibDem 10%
    Green 5%
    Other 3%

    https://aws.norstat.no/uk-political-polling/ST%20Tables%20for%20publication%20v1%20101224.pdf

    That's not bad really, but with enough incentive given that 1/3 of Reform (4%) could vote YES, and if 2% of the Green vote and 1% of Other could be persuaded onto the SNP vote you get SNP 44%.

    Now comes the fun part - put Indy right on the line, and perhaps very very carefully using the BiS polling figures giving 57% and 66% YES as an inducement , perhaps you could even get 2% of the LibDem, 2% of Con and a massive 6% of the Lab vote.

    Giving a grand total of 54% for the SNP on a very very solid platform for Independence, and perhaps indeed, a de facto referendum.

    I commend this action to the SNP chamber. Happy Christmas Eve.

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  11. Yes to indy ref. Go for it. Your idea is a cracker.

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