As I mentioned a few days ago, a reader very kindly sent me screenshots of the questions in the latest Scottish poll from Panelbase that has been in the field over the last week. It looked to me like another multi-client survey - some of the questions had Wings written all over them (yes, there's yet another trans question coming), but others were on subjects that it was hard to imagine RevStu asking about. Part of that theory has been proved right, because the first of the results has now been published on Wings - a very useful question that found overwhelming support for border restrictions between Scotland and England if they become necessary due to higher infection rates south of the border. However, it remains to be seen whether the results on the standard independence question, and also on the Westminster and Holyrood voting intention questions, will appear on Wings or elsewhere. One obvious possibility is the Scottish edition of the Sunday Times, which has been commissioning polls from Panelbase for many years. However, there was no sign of any results at midnight, which is often when they've appeared in the past.
But while we're waiting, let's take a look at the wording of one the other questions that probably come from the Wings section of the poll -
We'd like you to imagine a new pro-independence party was formed for the 2021 Scottish Parliament election, contesting seats ONLY on the regional list, and that party was led by Alex Salmond. Do you think you might vote for the new party with your list vote?
Options:
* Yes, definitely
* More likely than not
* Possible but unlikely
* Definitely not
This is the "Archie Stirling"-type question that I've been warning about for the best part of a year -
"What is an Archie Stirling-type question? Just weeks before the 2007 Holyrood election, the wealthy businessman Archie Stirling (ex-husband of Diana Rigg and father of Rachael Stirling) commissioned a YouGov poll which asked respondents whether they would consider voting for his new centre-right political party, Scottish Voice, on the regional list ballot. 21% said they would. Mr Stirling sent the results to the newspapers, which breathlessly reported that Scottish Voice could be on course to win dozens of list seats and to hold the balance of power. But a few weeks later when the actual results came in, the party received only 0.3% of the list vote and didn't come remotely close to winning a single seat. It had won just one-seventieth (!) of the number of votes that the YouGov poll had implied was possible."
To get a meaningful sense of the likely support for a new party, you have to present it as merely one of a menu of options, alongside the established parties. If you instead ask about it in isolation, as Stirling did, you're likely to get a massive overestimate. So be on your guard for any breathless commentary in the coming days that suggests a new list party is on course for 20% or 30% or 40% or 50% of the vote, because that is the total number who tell Panelbase they would "definitely" or "more likely than not" vote for it. Any such result cannot be considered reliable, simply because of the way the question was posed.
That said, the shortcomings of this particular polling exercise don't change what is already obvious - that a party led by Alex Salmond would stand a realistic chance of winning seats. Is that a prospect we should be excited about? Here are the pros and cons as I see them...
Pros: Any Salmond-led party would, almost by definition, be a lot bolder in its pursuit of independence than the current SNP leadership. That could help to break the impasse on adopting a Plan B in the absence of a Section 30 order. If the new party held the balance of power, it could make Plan B a condition for supporting an SNP government. And even if it didn't hold the balance of power, its success could still shock the SNP into becoming more daring.
Cons: There would be the whole psychodrama of Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon being in direct competition with each other. My guess is that Mr Salmond would play that aspect down and would portray his party as a complement to the SNP rather than a competitor. But our unionist-dominated media would still have a field-day, and there would be a danger of the broader independence movement being damaged. The broadcasters might also be tempted to bend their already flexible "rules" on who qualifies for TV debates in the hope of getting sparks flying between the former colleagues. An additional concern is that some senior SNP parliamentarians foolishly launched thinly-veiled attacks on Mr Salmond in the wake of his acquittal. That could make it psychologically harder for the two parties to work together if the parliamentary arithmetic makes cooperation necessary.
Looked at that way, it might appear that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. But it really just depends on whether you think the current SNP leadership will ever take the steps necessary to give the people of Scotland a choice on their future. If you genuinely don't think they will, then accepting the risks (and those risks are substantial) becomes much more logical.
I've no idea whether Mr Salmond is actively considering the possibility of fronting a new party. But if he is, I don't envy him the choice, because it's very hard to judge the right course of action, and the future of Scotland could hinge on his decision.
Splitting the vote never ends well. Salmond used to have excellent political nous but his ego has clearly got the better of him if he thinks this would be a remotely helpful move. Would it help the cause of independence? Not by siphoning away votes from the party that can deliver it. But if it gets Alex plenty of column inches and some opportunities to kick those he feels wronged him, then maybe he'll go for it anyway.
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts exactly regarding Salmond. Since 2014, he has been suffering from Short Man Syndrome as he has lost the political limelight which he'd got used to before losing the first referendum. If he puts his ego before the objective then he must be denounced and binned for good.
DeleteAmusingly, it now appears that Nigel Farage is getting a bad case of limelight withdrawal symptoms, as his recent antics regarding Dover Channel boats, on-air racist remarks (which, deliciously, got him fired by LBC) and multiple Covid-19 lockdown violations strongly suggest. He's becoming the English Alex Salmond, and it couldn't happen to a more deserving chap.
Here in Catalonia the pro-indy parties have split, and split, and split. The unioninst press, and the unionist parties have had a field day as a result, and are now skilled at putting up debates that simply create more division. I really hope that Mr. Salmond does not go down that path.
DeleteLet's keep on pressing the SNP to get us to independence, and then, when we have our own parliament and our own sovereignty, the parties can split into as many factions as they want.
it is ever the case that rats will gnaw at the soles of the shoes of great men.
DeleteWhy ignore the elephant in the room?
ReplyDeleteThe SNP activists and members are already approaching breaking point. Like many members who have remained in the party to "recover" the direction of travel I WILL give any competent list party MY vote. I will not give the Greens my vote because I do not trust them to pursue Independence above Party interest.
In your article your comment about "another Wings self ID question" - do you have any idea how big an issue women's rights are? I think many of the polling models have got it badly wrong by not factoring in that literal vote changer.
Fear you are becoming victim of your own bubble. A 'because something is important to me, it must be important to others' kind of situation.
DeleteWhen polling has shown majority support among *women* for trans rights.
I seem to remember that Wings have asked questions about self-ID and GRA in the past that never saw the light of day. Maybe they didn't like the answer?
Finally, speak to women in Ireland. They have similar GRA legislation and none of the catastrophes people predict have materialised.
Nevertheless, this whole issue is an entirely avoidable distraction. The SNP is necessarily a broad church, and the SG is in effect a "caretaker" government, there only to maximise support in order to usher in a new era.
DeleteYour analogy with Ireland is apposite. This is the kind of issue that should be put to the people of Scotland, as it was to the Irish, after we are fully sovereign, and entirely divorced from the issue of independence.
First things first.
I should have added to my comment above that I am an admirer of the competence and skills of both Nicola Sturgeon AND Alex Salmond. My primary focus is on Independence and having BOTH at Holyrood has no downside for me.
ReplyDeleteThe key issues.
a) kick it Unionist deadwood who crawl in on list votes.
b) force a shakeup at SNP HQ and force them to start listening to members.
Hear, hear Julia,
DeleteWhat fucking ego, they tried to frame an innocent man. I look at my own ego if I was you, what a load off shit. I don’t want the Indy vote split I want the SNP to deliver what they promised, independence. They have massive external problems with this set of Tory wankers done south. They now have the great support of the Scottish population. We want them to use this support and strike whilst the iron is white hot. This shit that Alex Salmond wants to split the Indy vote is just a fucking red herring. I think he is going after the people whom sought to do him evil, if there are SNP people whom were involved that’s their problem, they are legitimate targets.
ReplyDeleteThink you're on to something. Alex Salmond doesn't want to split the indy vote, its OTHERS that are saying he should.
DeleteIf Alex Salmond were to go after 'legitimate targets' in the SNP, do you think this would help or harm the independence cause?
DeleteI get that he led the movement for a long time, but the fact is we LOST the referendum when Alex Salmond was at the helm.
ReplyDeleteThink he could serve better in a backroom advisory role highlighting the things that went wrong last time so the same mistakes aren't made again.
I still don't understand how the comical shambles of Vote Leave and Leave.EU won their referendum, but it does make me wonder if a certain demographic will actively support something *because* it's chaotic and ridiculed, rather than despite it. Does that demographic exist in Scotland? Splitting the vote may be fraught with danger, but can broadening the appeal ever be bad, particularly with a binary question?
ReplyDeleteLikewise, could the Nat vs Nat press feeding frenzy that would ensue actually help to normalise independence in the minds of those who aren't engaged in politics, rather than it just being SNP vs the rest?
And if a Salmond party did gain traction, it's highly likely that at least one or two big hitters could jump ship. A Salmond/Cherry "dream ticket", anyone?
Wouldn't touch it with a bargepole myself, mind.
Paragraph 1: the English press have been sowing anti-EU sentiment for literally decades, so it was out there in the population, Cameron too out of touch to realise it existed
DeleteParagraph 2: I see your point, but for most Salmond will always represent SNP
Paragraph 3/4: have said before, maybe its because I'm no from Edinburgh but I do not get the 'popular' appeal of Cherry
I am frae Edinburgh, and her "popular appeal" seems to come mainly from either the "Sturgeon is an MI5 plant" crowd, due to her being willing to courageously speak out about a plan B which of course has nothing to do with raising her profile for future leadership aspirations, no siree bob, not a bit of it, pishtosh, perish the thought etc...; and from the "GRA is basically the Holocaust" crowd who see her as a respectable beard since she's more capable of couching her opposition in "reasonable" language except for occasional mask-slips like the whole "TERF is a misogynistic slur" line(the reasoning for which is that it's primarily used by trans women to describe cis women, and the people making that argument originally believe trans women are just delusional men in dresses). There's also some residual support from the more fanatical end of the anti-Brexit brigade.
DeleteA question for James, even with 50% of the list vote how many list seats do you estimate the SNP will win?
ReplyDeleteIf it is less than say 4 seats any list vote for the SNP is a wasted vote. I say this as a long time SNP member who has never voted for any other party in my life (73 years old) I will gladly give my list vote to any independent independence party.
Back of a fag packet says EXACTLY four as published by Sunday Times.
DeleteBut that depends on
- results of 73 constituencies going as expected (they won't)
- turnout (no clue in advance)
- vote share of other parties going as expected (no way of knowing)
Under our inherited AMS, the PR list votes determine the composition of seats in Parliament, so winning a disproportionately-large number of constituencies under olde-worlde FPTP (as can happen) does create an initial obstacle to garnering much more in the regions. Nevertheless, the greater the list vote for the SNP, the more it will begin to tell.
DeletePR is fairer, so tends to adjust-out any initial imbalance created by the constituencies, but it would eventually register a substantial swell of support for the SNP, were that to occur.
All this "gaming" talk is just piddling about because until now the country has been roughly split down the middle, but there's nothing that beats getting significant majority support at the ballot box.
And that's maybe where we're finally heading. That changes everything.
Every year, for the last forty-odd years, I have coughed around £400 (in today's money for buildings insurance for my house. I am glad to report that, to date, my house hasn't burned down, and those premiums have been "wasted".
DeleteEven although the chances of my house burning down are minuscule, the consequences of it happening while the house is uninsured would be so catastrophic for me and my family, I'm going to keep on paying the premium.
In comparison, the chances of the pro-indy parties losing their majority, are many, many times higher than of my house burning down. This is not 2007, when the unionists did the "honourable thing" and allowed the SNP (as the largest party) to form a minority government. If the unionists win 65 seats, they will form a " grand coalition" government faster than you can say "Indy is dead", with Surname Surname as FM, Ricardo Leadbetter as deputy FM, and Wee Willie Winkie as minister for road signs.
If I wake up the morning after the election, to discover that my list vote has been "wasted", I'll be tickled pink, because it will mean that Sturgeon (or whoever) will be FM, and the indy project will still be alive.
I COULD gamble, and use my insurance premium money to buy myself a new Sage fly rod, but, nice as that would be, I'm going to keep paying the premium, keep voting SNP/SNP........just in case...
Brilliant post Alex Birnie
DeleteI say that as a passionately independence supporting green voter
Looks like there is about to be a power grab from westminster.now is the time for the isp and alliance party.to join and be led by alex salmond.westminster will use the torys in hollyrood to bring about this power grab.the least amount of torys / unionists in the parliment will be our only defence.we go on about nicola having to be more assertive and bold.well now it's our turn we have to accept that if we want independence we need as many independence msp in hollyrood as possible.votes and % of votes will be the only indication people outside scotland can judge the true legitimacy of what we have voted for.this is a critical time. if the prominent bloggers dont stop this stupid oneupmanship and get together I think that will do more damage than a meek snp.our next chance could be our last chance.the time for pros and cons is over.VOTES win and numbers give you recognition and legitimacy.they also make it harder to remove powers.
ReplyDeleteWhat we need right now is for Alex Salmond to get his ''book'' out to clarify what has been going on. Put some of the myths to rest. Then to indicate if he's one bit interested in returning to Holyrood. All of this rumour and speculation being used by Campbell to manipulate people needs to be quashed, asap.
ReplyDeleteSo many words and accusations being put in Salmond's mouth.
DeleteQuestion is, what will the new party saviours do if Salmond comes out in support for trans rights?
Which is more important the end or the cause, Stuart Campbell screams willing the end but only his way and if it's not his way then another cause becomes more important
ReplyDeleteAlex Salmond's time in front line politics is done, guilty or not it makes no difference because they media would crucify him mercilessly and wreck the end which as far as I see it is what Campbell hopes for
The very idea of Alex Salmond coming back fills me with horror, both for him and the YES movement
Stuart Campbell is a twisted individual with a grudge against the current FM and the SNP because they won't listen to him and do things his way, well his way lost the 2014 referendum remember
Can't wait for the next World cup so Wings can demand bringing back Billy Bremner as well he's bound to win it for us
The media are going to crucify everyone in the independence movement Not just alex salmond.the difference is people and I mean a lot of people will follow alex salmond.so let's not get caught up in the oh we cant do that because the MSM will not like it.salmond is a big player in the yes movement.his name and stature brings a lot of credence and votes to any list party.
ReplyDeleteAlex Salmond is not popular with women, he never was and since the trial women will not vote for this man
ReplyDeleteIt makes no difference whether he's guilty or innocent, voters vote for people they like, it's human nature, and they don't like Alex Salmond, and you know what they're right because he lost in 2014 because he knew he was going to lose, the Lord Advocate of Scotland warned him beforehand that even if the YES vote held up, because he did the stupid deal he did with David Cameron he locked Scotland into the section 30 situation forever which gives the UK the power of veto for as long as they like
Alex Salmond gambled with Scotland and lost, he should stay out of it or we lose again because he buggered it up with his poker playing the first time
Alex salmond took us from nowhere to within 6% of independence.i dont think boris is that popular but hey look at the numbers hes got. think what we are witnessing is a meltdown of unionists who are panicked by a nicola snp.and alex list party.best to leave them thrashing about and talking pish...I'm away to get popcorn.
ReplyDelete"what we are witnessing is a meltdown of unionists who are panicked by a nicola snp ..."
ReplyDeleteTrue that. Manifestly.
"... and alex list party" You wish. (What "alex list party"...?)
Exactly right
DeleteJames Kelly wrote: "But it really just depends on whether you think the current SNP leadership will ever take the steps necessary to give the people of Scotland a choice on their future. If you genuinely don't think they will, then accepting the risks (and those risks are substantial) becomes much more logical."
ReplyDeleteYes, and it is clear to me that as long as Sturgeon and her cadre of Union-centric devolutionists control the SNP she/they will never, of their own volition, seriously seek to deliver independence.
De facto, a vote for *this* SNP led by Sturgeon is a vote to continue the Union not to end it. The cause of Scottish independence will not be advanced by voting SNP in 2021 if Sturgeon is in control.
There is no cadre of union-centric devolutionists in the SNP except in the fevered mind of that headcase Stuart Campbell who's only objective is to damage the SNP because that's what he does, he's a subversive by his own admittance, he doesn't care about Independence, he cares about whatever cause he thinks he can twist to suit his own ends like Farage and George Galloway
DeleteWhen the ffff will you people wake up
When supporters of the new List party write "....as long as Sturgeon and her cadre of Union-centric devolutionists control the SNP..." everyone must see that this project is not about maximising the pro-independence vote but about undermining and damaging the SNP.
ReplyDeleteChristian Wright up there was a long time Unionist troll on Wings over Scotland, now all of a sudden he agrees with Stuart Campbell, that tells its own story of who's paying Campbell these days and it isn't Alex Salmond because he would be a madman to return to politics in any capacity and no harm to him but we dont need him anywhere near the SNP and he probably knows it
DeleteNicola Sturgeon union centric? these people are round the ffffffff bend trying to pull this shit, still if Dominic Cummings is paying the bill for Campbells sweeties and walks in his local park and his comfy life
Speaking from my own experience, Lithuania 1991, the international will be more amiable to a single main party. You need the independence government party to speak for a solid support. Plus the SNP has formed real relationships with other governments in Europe. These countries know who they are talking to and that they are not some bunch of crazy nationalist as they are finding the UK government.
ReplyDeletePicking up a few extra seats to make the YES majority feel more secure is not worth losing that.
Thanks for that insight Tamas
Delete