Those of you of a certain vintage may remember that the Guardian newspaper was widely regarded as having made a complete fool of itself twenty years ago when it tried to influence the US presidential election by getting its readers to send personalised letters to voters in Clark County, Ohio, urging a vote for John Kerry rather than George W Bush. If it had any effect at all, the perception was that it slightly increased Bush's margin of victory in Ohio, because people disapproved of outside interference in American affairs.
Anyone who was involved in that miscalculation may draw some satisfaction from learning that the boot is apparently on the other foot this year, and people from the US are sending handwritten notes to registered voters overseas urging them to vote. I received the above note from a lady in California a couple of weeks ago, and although it doesn't say "please vote against Trump", I do detect a bit of a subtext there!
But here is my dilemma. I have a history of voting for left-wing third-party candidates in presidential elections, but in 2016 and 2020 I held my nose and voted for Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden respectively, on the basis that any election in which Donald Trump is on the ballot is an emergency and you don't muck around.
The same logic applies this year, but I just could not have imagined the scale of the Israeli atrocities in Gaza and the Biden/Harris administration's seemingly unconditional backing for the genocidal Netanyahu regime. Any vote for Harris thus feels like an endorsement of the genocide. Additionally, I felt happier about voting for Clinton and Biden because they seemed to have abandoned their previous support for the death penalty, which is a key issue for me, but I gather opposition to the death penalty has been removed from the Democratic platform this year, and Harris is being evasive about her own position.
I'll have to make a decision very soon, so I'd be interested in your thoughts. What would you do? Vote against the genocide by voting for the Green candidate Jill Stein, or vote against Trump by voting for Kamala Harris?
Had no idea you were American!
ReplyDeleteHarris is a bore who's got to the top via chicanery of the party. But the world doesn't need Trump and the anger and angst that he brings.
I sometimes find Trumps anti establishment, mix it up rhetoric entertaining but the world's superpower and its fractious society needs a boring unifier more than someone who will stir the pot.
Biden reneged on his commitment to serve a single term. There really should have been a contested primary but the party caved to him. If not for his visible decline—and the concession to his party to have a conspicuously early debate in the hope to quash the rumours—he would be up against Trump and could well have won.
DeleteBut you did see him in that horror show of a debate, right? His party were staring into the abyss. They twisted his arm so hard it almost popped off!
Look on the bright side: at least there’s no 4 more years of Biden to shelter Israel now. I don’t expect much from Harris, but she’s got a deep limbo to stoop any lower to Netanyahu the war criminal.
I'm no lover of the patronising Democrats but Trump is not fit for office after declaring against the democratic vote last time.
DeleteAnyone who thinks this is a close judgement call who's not affected by their local American biases is off their head.
What state are you registered in?
ReplyDeleteIf it’s a swing state like Pennsylvania: take it seriously. If it’s not, like California: vote for whoever makes you feel best. You’re off the hook in that case.
Most states, and therefore voters, are essentially worthless thanks to the electoral college.
I ask which state because there is no electoral college representation for overseas voters. I believe you get to participate the in the Democratic primary but not federal elections, without a US address and therefore state.
DeleteOne thing I’ll give California: they sure do get their full share of referendums. Just look through the state’s official voting guide:
Deletehttps://vig.cdn.sos.ca.gov/2024/general/pdf/complete-vig.pdf
I’d vote for all the propositions besides the last one if I lived there.
But as I’m merely Scottish, I’ll have had my referendum. Once in a generation? Once forever, more like. We can’t be trusted to fluff it again.
To be honest I think the sooner we move on from Trump the better.
ReplyDeleteIt was actually interesting seeing parts of the JD Vance v Tim Walz debate. Both often agreed with one another, showed each other respect, didn't resort to name calling or hubris. It was very reminiscent of the "normal" Presidential debates from pre-2016... that kind of normality is sorely missed.
Until the bit where Vance couldn’t criticise the mob who invaded Congress with the intent to murder the vice president of the United States. That was still Trumpy.
DeleteThere are no circumstances under which I would vote for anyone who supports a genocide, ever. If that isn’t a red line what is? The Democrats don’t just support, they fund it, guide, and probably execute a lot of it themselves for all we know. Did you see the report that Blinken personally gave the okay for medics to be murdered? We need to prosecute everyone involved in this, much less vote for them.
ReplyDeleteThe way American politics has descended into the gutter, smashed down into the sewer, and just keeps on going downwards ever faster, I wouldn’t criticise anyone with moral conviction for getting the hell out of the United States.
DeleteMind, the place was founded on genocide, as we all know and yet somehow just shrug off as irrelevant. Perhaps it’s really not so.
The genocide status is contested. Not that it matters to dead people in the music festival that were humiliated, abused and murdered but they were murdered for being Jews.
DeleteAnd subsequently outnumbered 50 to 1 by those murdered for being Palestinian.
DeleteAnd that retaliation killing is still ongoing, in several more countries.
DeleteStill, Muslims somehow never count. It’s antisemitic to say they should.
Neither are right and both are evil. I dont get what is hard to get about that.
DeleteThat 50 times as many murders is 50 times worse? And that we are arming them?
DeleteThey would be alive today if oct 7th hadn't happened.
DeleteAnyone can play that game. Thr victims of October 7th would be alive today if it hadn't been for Israel's illegal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank.
DeleteI'm sure the hostages are having a rare game of all this. The lack.of empathy is telling
DeleteI'm sure 50,000 Palestinian corpses are having a fab time. No empathy at all from you.
DeleteFounding Israel—and uprooting a whole people from their homeland—did not atone the Holocaust.
DeleteDestroying Gaza—and taking aim at Lebanon and other countries now—just as surely doesn't mend the deaths on October 7th.
Someone started all of this, and they weren't Arabs.
There's load of empathy from me. I think they're both evil, leaders of both sides. It's wicked. I can't he arsed with those that downplay either sides losses.
DeleteOr for those who count those losses accurately and can tell the difference between 1000 and 50,000.
DeleteThe IDF have approximately 11, 000 hostages taken from the West Bank. Israel calls them prisoners - but they do not have any trial and never will. A prisoner taken in an occupied land with no rights to justice is just a hostage. These Palestinian hostages also have family who cannot visit them and worry about their treatment.
DeleteSo anon at 10.38pm have you any empathy for them. Do you ask yourself why the Britnat media never tell the story of what Israel does in the West Bank where there is no Hamas for them to hide behind as an excuse.
I dont condone it but I'm not sure all 11,000 prisoners are lovely people who had no intent on killing Jews.
DeleteWe'll get nowhere if each side wants revenge and can't stand in each other's shoes. Easy for me to say with little skin in it.
Sparks would really fly if Celine Gottwald was allowed to take part rather than be muzzled by the oligarchs who run the good old US of A. Tragic.
DeleteAnon at 2.34pm - there is also the over 700 Palestinians killed in the occupied West Bank last year. This includes children throwing rocks at tanks shot in the head. Israel is a colonial project taking land by force and oppressing Palestinians by force of arms over 8 decades. Arms supplied by the US,UK,EU. An apartheid state not a democratic state. A long term ethnic cleansing project. Are you really surprised that the Palestinians hate Israel?
DeleteThe idea Jews just came there 80 years ago is a gross over simplification.
DeleteOh, does it say something different in your holy book?
DeleteAnon at 9.36am - "the idea Jews just came there 80 years ago is a gross over simplification" - something I never said and it is not just an over simplification it is wrong. So you did the old trick of erecting a straw man so you could knock it down. Comment on my actual words please, not your straw man.
DeleteI'd be voting Jill Stein of the Greens personally. Obviously your choice, James.
ReplyDeleteRegards,
Michael
Jill Stein is a Putin stooge.
DeleteShe's crackers. Insane.
DeleteI will vote Harris on the basis of economic policy which has been excellent under Biden/Harris. I am also concerned at Trump's attitude to NATO which is not as strong as Harris's.
ReplyDeleteTrump's contempt for Nato, and the speed at which Ukraine will be forced to negotiate an end to the forever war, are perhaps Trump's least objectionable policies to me.
DeleteI'm hugely concerned that Trump will pull out of the Paris Climate Accords again. That's been one area where Biden has exceeded my expectations. If he does win, the consequences for the whole world could be even more devastating than what is currently happening in Gaza.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that the US are funding a genocide, and I understand the huge reluctance to vote for Harris - but I'd probably end up voting for her in any state where neither candidate has a double-digit lead in the polls, as a purely desperate last resort. Otherwise, Jill Stein or Cornel West are both good ways to register your protest.
Trump is a big pal of Netahanyu. Remember he moved the USA embassy to Jerusalem knowing how inflammatory that would be. Trump would probably encourage Netahanyu. I would go for Harris and hope she is not a monstrous Zionist like Biden.
ReplyDeleteShe's certainly zionist because the USA absolutely sees Israel as an important ally.
DeleteI see there are now reports that the IDF have been shooting at the UN's international peace keeping soldiers in Lebanon.
DeleteEven Unherd can see through Kamala Harris'z tissue thin disguise.
DeleteShe is another self-promoting willing servant of the Donor class.
Like Biden, utterly Neoliberal through and through.
The idea that Harris or Biden are on the Left is Ludicrous. Risible,
https://unherd.com/2024/09/kamala-harris-is-a-neocon-in-disguise/
Pretty much everyone might agree Trump is narcissistic. I'd go much further: I think a lot of his behaviour is psychopathic, and he's a dangerous person anywhere near US levers of power.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't say much for the Democrats that they've only been able to find such dreadful candidates to stand against Trump. Clinton, Biden and Harris are the lamest of ducks.
DeleteI'd still vote for any of them in a heartbeat to keep out the narcissistic pr1ck.
Finding candidates is bloody difficult. Ideally, you want someone that is positively recognised by at least 70 million Americans to begin with. If you don't already have that in hand, you've got to introduce them and that can backfire.
DeleteIt's why former First Ladies have become viable long-term candidates.
Jilary Cllinyon didn't stand a chance. Waving at people she didn't know but pretending she recognised them. And now that Rachel Reeves and the onecwho stays I apartments of Lord Hawhae in New York. Not a chance. Crazy.
DeleteTrump is totally off his rocker. Biden's senile. Surely anyone is better?
ReplyDeleteMain concern with Trump is Ukraine and lack of commitment to NATO.
DeleteThe comment at 9.14 is right. If you are voting in a swing state then a third party candidate is a wasted vote. I don't remember a time when the choice of president carried so much global consequence and Trump is a disaster.
ReplyDeleteBut as an overseas voter how does your vote affect the Electoral College? Looking online you need an address in the US which establishes which state you are voting for.
If your state is solid R or D then vote as you please, because it won't make any difference.
The Israelis setting the Middle East on fire is a huge problem for all of us but Trump is unlikely to stop that either. US politics seems to be in thrall to the Israeli lobby in a way which is wildly disproportionate to the actual number of US citizens in that ethnic minority, I don't know why.
I hope Harris wins, and sets about curbing Israel's excesses. Looking at the history of Israel I have come to the conclusion that it is a failed colonial experiment. Without arms from Germany, the UK and the US, it would have to come to terms with its neighbours which might be quite hard after the last year.
Good god, I cant believe you are influenced by all the propaganda, Clinton is the biggest warmonger in the usa, she and kerry want to change the constitution because they say there are too many protections for their citizens and they cant rule, they mean Musk of course and article 1 about freedom of speech, what hope for the future when you and ginger dug vote with the bad guys, and believe the msm BS. sheesh.
ReplyDeleteFatherTedCrilly
For pity's sake, that's a bit harsh. I voted for left-wing candidates in presidential elections until 2016, and even in 2016 I voted against Clinton in the Democratic primaries. I very, very reluctantly voted for her in the main election because her opponent was Donald Trump. Do you really not understand how finely balanced decisions like that are, and inevitably have to be?
DeleteVoting for a supporter of genocide shouldn’t be a finely balanced decision. Can you imagine a conversation in 20 or 30 years time - what did you do during the Palestinian genocide? I strongly opposed it, of course, and I even considered not voting for one of the leaders who supported and enabled it
DeleteThe trajectory of American policy in the Middle East, if not the policy itself, throughout the 50 years I have observed it, is that all the Palestinians die. This will not change no matter who is elected president.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Trump supporters will accept ‘another stolen’ defeat. Could send the country into a period of serious civil/militia disorder. Is this worse than voting Trump and helping him win? I have no idea. Trump does seem to be anti-war, in that it is bad for business (arms companies aside).
ReplyDeleteSNP members need reminding that their previous Chief Exec ( Murrell) has been charged with embezzlement of SNP funds and their current Chief Exec (Foote) is the man who broke the Edinburgh Agreement by creating and publishing the Infamous Vow in 2014 in his Daily Record and therefore helping no win the referendum. Who recruited Murray Foote - the Murrell's. Both the previous and current Chief Exec were found to have lied about losing 50,000 members and instead were claiming the membership was increasing.
ReplyDeleteDisnae sound like a party leadership interested in independence.
SNP members need reminded. Reminded, not reminding unless we're all totally anglicised in our idioms. Heartbreaking.
DeleteWho leads the independent socialist Republican Party of one? Is that their name. Please remind us. They will never be elected ever! Aye same old record by the jealous one.
DeleteNo idea what you two are going on about but don't bother trying to explain it.
DeleteI quite believe you have.no idea. Watcher, mate . Diamond geezer!
Delete5 massive pump hydro schemes planned fae Loch Ness. Similar huge scheme in Lochaber. Now we're seeing the end result of the dash for wind: ecology of Lochs destroyed, damage to our wild lands and biodiversity. Nae sense as climate change predictions indicate 1 year in 2 will be drought years.
ReplyDeleteScotland is going to be turned into a huge battery fae England. Even that won't be enough for oor wonderful UK : nuclear will be forced on us yet. And they'll want water shipped sooth too.
This is why we won't get independence unless we stand together.
Great British energy!
Only a minority want independence, so it won’t make a button of difference if you stand together or not!
DeleteOnly a minority says the one lone Britnat.😂
DeleteThe polls say the same consistently IFS.
DeleteWhat do the Germans say and do they say it consistently.
DeleteDear oh dear 🤣
DeleteHe's crazy. Off his rocker. Deranged
DeleteRoll out the barrel. God bless ye ma'am. Another Sir Marmaduke Tweng if you asked me.
DeleteIf I had a vote I’d vote for Trump.
ReplyDeleteMore likely to end the war in Ukraine
Not as beholden to Netanyahu as the Dem establishment
Knows what a women is and isn’t at all captured by gender ideology
These issues will effect us in the UK
Condoning and funding wars and genocide which the UK will inevitably go along with
And gender ideology tentacles will effect the UK and make it harder for us to fight against the madness
This madness must end.
DeleteWhich one: the forever war in Ukraine or Trump?
DeleteIt’s widely accepted that “left leaning voters who vote for a 3rd party candidate” cost A Gore Florida in 2000 and therefore handed Republican Bush the presidency. (97,000 votes going to Ralph Nader). Virtue signalling has real consequences. Now it’s “ooh should I be seen to vote for Israel backing Democrats? - I’d rather let Trump in”.
ReplyDeleteGore really should have won his home state, too. Nader wasn’t to blame there. It was dullard Gore himself. Tennessee voted for Clinton after all.
DeleteSigh. It has nothing to do with "being seen" to do anything. It's about behaviour modification. Why do the Democrats back Israel so slavishly? Because the Israel lobby fund them, and they would lose those funds if they did anything else. If the Democrats can see that support for Israel is costing them a substantial number of votes, that might just be an effective counter-weight.
DeleteI have got no real choice but to delete Anon at 9.17 because it contains at least three direct lies.
DeleteSigh yourself. It’s a 2 party system and if you want to vote effectively against Trump you have to vote Democrat. Voting a 3rd party is just selfishly voting for something that will make you feel like you’re some kind of SJW who knows better. I once again point you to the very real instance of Florida 2000. That’s reality. Handwringing over Israel just helps Trump. Also, you seem to conveniently overlook the massacre by Hamas that kicked this whole thing off - exactly as they intended with reactions such as yours exactly as they intended. I won’t insult you with the Useful Idiot label but I would expect you to know better.
DeleteAnon 10.21pm - the whole thing was kicked off by the British state a long time ago.
DeleteOne poll does not an autumn make.
ReplyDeleteI’d be very surprised if independence ever falls below 45 in the averages, which smooth out outliers like this. Especially with Britain in such a miserable state.
This is off topic I know, so apologies.
ReplyDeleteIt’s disappointing to me as a lifelong unionist that support for independence appears to be much higher than it was back in 2014.
According to PollAndBangWe, 57% support freedom with only 43% favouring the Union (back in 2014, it was of course 45/55).
What makes this all the more concerning is the fact that PollAndBangWe is just about as reliable a source as you can get.
Bugger.
DeleteGot a nasty KC infection again, haven't we?
DeleteFlanelbase poll shows 43% of Scots love King Charles. The whole of Edinburgh were polled with Edi uni students asked to vote twice
DeleteI touch kids.
DeleteIt's a bloody disgrace that Swinney attended the Gordon Brown designed council of Nations and Regions. Where was England - oh that's right there was all the UK people and not to mention the multitude of English mayors. Yorkshire had 3 representatives (mayors). Swinney, the devolutionalist, would feel right at home.
ReplyDeleteDid Swinney take him to task for supporting the Gaza genocide or the new start up genocide in Lebanon? Or did he give him a hard time over the winter fuel payment? Or what about giving him a hard time for being a colonial bastard who denies Scotland its right to self determination?
Being a devolutionist house jock it would never enter his mind to do any such thing. Mustn't upset master would be his thoughts.
Your just another apologist sorry wee apologist for the greetin group of no hopers
ReplyDeleteYou Dr Jim at 10.37pm are a nasty nicophant who has a thing about violence being the solution to everything.
DeleteJames. Are you able to vote in the next US election? If so why? Would be good if you could clarify.
ReplyDeleteGenocide is the ultimate red line. And for once, Stein has the very real chance of getting to 5%, which means official funding for her campaign. The US (like the UK) needs to get rid of the uniparty. I recommend Stein.
ReplyDeleteLike my American partner, I would definitely urge you to vote for Harris because the prospect of Donald Trump winning is just too appalling. Trump is the most dishonest and personally repugnant candidate to stand for president in my lifetime - and that includes the racist George Wallace. He has no redeeming features at all. The most dangerous characteristic of this hate-fuelled narcissist is his utter disregard for the importance and morality of truth. Lying does not bother him in the slightest, and truth is only of value when it works to his advantage. Anti-democratic, racist, xenophobic, climate-change denying, misogynistic, vindictive, bullying and boastful - not to mention a convicted felon, multiple sex offender, and a grifter who stiffs the little people who do contracting work for him. It is essential for the world that this unmitigatedly dreadful apology for a human being is stopped. Harris is a far from ideal candidate, but her imperfections and pro-capitalist policies are not remotely as threatening as Trump's increasingly neo-fascist posturing. However reprehensible Harris's position on Gaza is, she does not use terms like vermin, cockroaches, bacilli and scum to describe anyone she opposes. That language is identical to what appears in Mein Kampf where it is the Jews who are the target. Trump's first wife recounted how he kept a collection of Adolf Hitler's speeches by his bedside, saying they were inspirational. Trump is a full-on Netanyahu supporter, so he will never restrain him - Harris just might when she no longer is in electoral mode and has shrugged off the shackles of Biden. Significantly too, both Netanyahu and Trump need to occupy the highest political office in their respective nations to stay out of jail - and are willing to sacrifice any number of people for their own interests. In this election, voting for a third-party candidate out of principle is fraught with danger and potentially self-destructive. This is an election where the paramount priority is voting AGAINST an existential peril.
ReplyDeleteNo brainer. Trump loves the death penalty and boasts about his love of it. He also champions Netanahu, who licks his boots. Vote Harris.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how clear it can be. This is an existential election with Project 2025, with Trump's support of Netanyahu. Even if you think a vote for Harris is a vote for Palestinian genocide, then a vote of Trump is a vote for Palestinian genocide AND a vote for Ukrainian genocide. It's a shit choice to have to make, but really the ultimate question is: who can beat Trump? No one but Harris. She's the only game in town. Do you want to play the game? No, but that's life. You play the cards you're dealt.
ReplyDeleteDoes a third party have a chance to win? No, it doesn't. It never has, and as long as FPTP and the Electoral College exists, it never will. Therefore, any vote against Harris is a vote for Trump. Because it is a binary choice. That's the be all and end all of it. Leftier than thou nonsense doesn't cut it.
The KPD wouldn't vote with the SPD because of what happened in the Spartacist revolt. Ask them what they would have done differently after 1933...oh, you couldn't because they were the first to be rounded up.