Tuesday, June 4, 2024

According to the snap YouGov poll, Keir Starmer has just lost a head-to-head debate with one of the most hapless and distrusted Prime Ministers in history. Perhaps Rebecca Long-Bailey would have been a better idea after all?

When ITV and the BBC rig their debates to totally exclude the largest party in Scotland (and other parties with significant support like the Liberal Democrats and the Greens), there's not really such a thing as a good outcome to a debate.  You lose, and democracy loses, simply by the event taking place.  But probably the least worst outcome is either that the whole thing is considered such a borefest that no-one emerges as a clear winner, or in this particular case that Starmer fails to win and is unable to generate further momentum in Scotland in the absence of his major rival.  The snap YouGov poll effectively gives us both of those least worst outcomes.

Leaving aside your own party preference, who do you think performed best overall in tonight’s debate?

Rishi Sunak 51%
Keir Starmer 49%

It was also helpful that Starmer allowed his Anglocentricity to seep through on a couple of occasions.  He'll have offended some voters in Wales by scoffing at the idea that anyone could possibly regard the performance of the Welsh NHS as being of the remotest importance, and when you're trying to win seats in Scotland it's bordering on amateurish to not at least briefly acknowledge the existence of the Scottish national football team when asked a question about the Euros. 

101 comments:

  1. Being British means taking pride in Britain’s boys in Europe, and not getting tangled up with those no hope, dour and dullard Scots. British voters in actual Britain would rightly never forgive you.

    Long live British rule! Keep it to yourselves, Jocks. 😉


    Honestly, though, I think an embarrassingly Anglocentric “Labour”’ government will do support for independence a world of good once the relief of Tory ouster wears off. What keeps half of Scots opposed to Indy? Sir Keir may well help us to find out.

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  2. Starmer never mentioned Scotland during the debate

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  3. In his head England includes Scotland, Wales and Ireland

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  4. Starmer is exceedingly lucky he has Sunak as an opponent. The moment he runs into a Tory leader with the vaguest trace of personality or charisma, he's toast.

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  5. Sunak is there mainly because he is not Truss or Johnson. Starmer is there mainly because he is not Corbyn.

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  6. Rob here, there was a comment on another site that made me wonder if this snap poll breaks down by region and nation. Is that the case, or is it a simple whole-UK opinion?

    The new Led By Donkeys video profile of Sunak is scathing. Though I doubt enough people will see it to affect his polling, it really should. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnwurflqrfQ

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    1. I've tickled the.mistrel with a strawberry dimple.

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  7. " Democracy loses" - the coloniser only allows the colony the amount of democracy it wants it to get at any point in time. That is, of course, a phoney democracy. There is no real democracy in Scotland - never has been. Scotland is England's colony. We are there to be abused, have our resources stolen and ignored when they want. So many people in Scotland having been born in to this situation don't even recognise it as abnormal.

    Our telly/media is totally controlled by England. So much that independence/SNP people are boasting about people like Flynn getting a few mins (possibly as often the English news media cut away to some other more important story) on news channels at PMQs. Pathetic and desperate stuff. Westminster needs to be blanked completely - like Sinn Fein. Show your contempt for the coloniser and its phoney democracy.

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    1. If Sinn Féin had been representing their electorate Theresa Mays government would have been defeated over Brexit. Their 7 votes were wasted.

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    2. "Westminster needs to be blanked completely - like Sinn Fein."

      But Sinn Féin don't completely blank Westminster, they stand in Westminster elections, and ask people to vote for them, and use that as a gauge of support for Irish nationalism/reunification.

      You seem to be arguing that hearing the Scottish point of view (on TV watched in Scotland) doesn't matter. As if to say

      "Don't watch, don't speak, don't vote, that'll show 'em!"

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    3. Anon at 8.31am - and then what? Are you saying Brexit wouldn't have happened or just scrambling about to find some reason to send a bunch of useless MPs to Westminster.

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    4. Lurker you are starting to build up a case file of misrepresenting me. Please stop it.

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    5. Your'e saying you won't watch the 'English' debates, you are belittling an MP commenting on them, you are scorning participation in Westminster, you think a vote for SNP is a wasted vote. That's how you come across. But if that is wrong conclusion, please correct/clarify.

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    6. IFS, what a load of nonsense.

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    7. Lurker I have asked you nicely to stop misrepresenting me. Do you think I am here just to prove your misrepresentations are wrong?

      How about I keep listing all sorts of stuff you having said and let's see you spend time explaining why I am wrong. Fancy that Lurker?

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    8. The waters of the east coast of Scotland are getting littered/covered with offshore wind farms to send even more electricity down to England. Loads is already sent down at present. Did the people of Scotland get a say in this happening - no. Do the people of Scotland get any direct income from this massive money generator - no. Just the same as with the great oil and gas rip off. This happens because we are a colony of England.

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    9. Dear oh dear IFS, you’re getting worse.

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    10. LURKER

      Your posts misrepresenting me.

      8.51am -
      1. I know exactly what Sinn Fein do so I do not need you explaining it. I have posted on numerous occasions I will vote ISP who have the same policy as Sinn Fein of non attendance if elected.
      2. You don't need people in Westminster to hear the case for independence. There is a bucketload of MSPs in Holyrood. Westminster is the coloniser - they will ignore it. So wrong I am not saying " the Scottish point of view doesn't matter". We need the Scotgov to do something about increasing this. Insist the BBC show live coverage of Holyrood all the time on the BBC Scotland channel.
      3. " Don't vote" - where do I say that? Read what I said in 1. above. I will VOTE ISP.
      4. " Don't watch, don't speak, don't vote, that'll show em!" A complete misrepresentation.

      9.04am - " scorning participation in Westminster" correct - about time you got something right.
      " a vote for SNP is a wasted vote" it is if you want independence. If you want Labour with a cloak of Tartan around it then it is not. So you are partially correct but your comment was imprecise.
      " belittling an MP " happy to do that to some SNP MPs but my comment re Flynn was about the English media belittling him by not showing him. So wrong again.

      In summary, your 8.51am completely misrepresents my position.
      Your second post is slightly more accurate. Lurker stop misrepresenting me and stop wasting my time. This isnae the first time.

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    11. IFS, I'm sorry for any misrepresentation, it easily happens on these fora, when people use rhetorical exaggeration or try to encapsulate a position in a short phrase. I have been on the receiving end of similar.

      But you seem to have missed my caveats "You seem to be saying...As if to say... That's how you come across."

      That is my impression; you may not literally be saying it, but the effect of what you're saying seems to boil down to: it's not worth independence supporters voting SNP.

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    12. Sinn Fein may not attend Westminster but they merrily trouser the expenses. It's one thing they're really good at.

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    13. Lurker your apology does not seem genuine to me and you seem to me to be a windup merchant. Not in the least genuine.

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    14. IFS, sorry you think that, sounds like you are now misrepresenting me, by calling me a windup merchant. But I acknowledge that you use the term 'seem' which I used in my own defence, so I accept any misrepresentation is unintentional.

      I just think it's fruitless to have a line by line argument over every clause in any post deemed to be 'wrong' - which we could both do, to no advantage.

      On reflection I think the gist of our disagreement is that you think voting SNP is futile while I think indy supporters abstaining from voting is futile; but I respect your choice of ISP's principled stance on that matter, but you seem full of derision towards SNP politicians and supporters and other posters you disagree with.

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  8. I didnae watch the two Britnat morons last night just as I won't be watching any debates in this ENGLAND dominated election. I did watch every leadership hustings for SNP leader because that was important to Scottish independence. What did the SNP members vote for - Yousaf - a complete waste of space - a continuity con. Only 11% of the members voted for Regan - the only candidate putting independence first.

    This was then followed a year later by another continuity con ( John REDACTOR MAN Swinney ) except there was no election this time as Sturgeon's gang wurnie sure they could pochle it.

    The SNP - a total waste of space as a party of independence.

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  9. I didn't watch and haven't heard of many people commenting on it. I've a feeling this may be a record low turnout.

    i'm in two minds, a tory victory is probably better for independence but they need turfed out. Debased the office.

    Abhainn

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  10. Regan stood for snp leader and was beaten- soundly. She then resigned as an MSP in a juvenile huff. Alternative view she was always Alex’s girl and deceived the local SNP membership. Not a nice characteristic. Not sure why you are fixated so much on a party you are not a member off nor wish to join, but attack. Nicola Sturgeon is now 2 FM’s ago. You seem to have some clinical fixation on her and this is unhealthy. You want the snp to lose any gift the election to the britnats. Quack 🦆

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    1. You seem to have some fixation about ducks which is both 'juvenile' and 'unhealthy'.

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    2. Donald Duck says Regan " resigned as an MSP " - wrong. Donald is just another WGD numpty.

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    3. You seem to have a fixation about other websites.

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    4. The wise one is back!

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    5. Isn't SGP lucky to have so many clinicians posting btl. One of them does seem to be taking self I D to an extreme by thinking he is a duck. Best heal yourself first Donald before offering advice to others.

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    6. Ok. Britnat - is that better.

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    7. So Donald Duck is now self IDing as a Britnat at 11.36am. Strange person. Perhaps now that he is no longer a duck he will know the difference between resigning from a political party and resigning as an MSP.

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    8. I think Donald is just a silly goose. It's a pity he doesn't shoot the craw and swan off to pollute some other blog with his parroting of the same chicken shit every day. If you ask me, he's stork raven mad. Maybe he should join the Greens where they're partial to the odd cockatoo.

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  11. I have just rejoined the SNP and I have some empathy for the perceived view that the SNP have disapointed those who want independence.However,I do not agree that the SNP are a waste of space.The problem that all of the independence movement have is how to achieve independence when Wesminster says np? At the moment there is no clear answer to this and disagreement about how to progress.However,I like Kate Forbes idea that we need to increase the numbers of those wanting indepemdence by explaining the relationsjip between independence and everything that is important to voters.She is one of the best people in the party to lead that campaign.I also agree with her that there is a need for all parts of the independence movement to work together and share ideas.At the moment it does seem that different parts of the indendence movement are focised on attacking attacking each other.I do believe that delays independence and the only people who benefit from that are the unionists.The strategy that I mention here are actually reffered to in the SNP Website under the heading Independence.

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    1. The elephant in the room is that polls for independence have barely moved for the last decade. The electorate doesn't believe it's on the horizon and it's incredibly difficult to win people over to supporting it when there's no prospect of it becoming a reality any time in the foreseeable future. For many people they feel "What's the point, it's not currently a priority so we're better campaigning on other issues in the meantime".

      The biggest increase in support for independence happened during an active unified campaign from 2012-2014 when we had a date, and the electorate knew there was a prospect of it actually happening so were open to being convinced one way or the other. We'd actually be in a considerably better starting position now than we were then if we could agree on a mechanism to make independence a reality.

      I don't understand the logic that we need to increase support before we talk about a mechanism to put independence into practice as the previous time showed that we actually need a mechanism first to focus a campaign on/rally around.

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    2. The polls also now consistently show a big disconnect in support for independence and support for the SNP. They can no longer be considered one and the same so any prospect of progressing the cause from this point will require genuine discussion and cooperation between pro-indy Parties and organisations.

      It's no longer enough to just say that we just need to unite behind the SNP as looking at the polls todays that's not accepting the reality of the situation. We need something radical such as that Constitutional Convention Alba have literally been calling for since Day 1 of their existence.

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    3. @9.30am
      The logic of increasing support without a referendum is that the UK is unlikely to allow a referendum when the result is unpredictable - the old lawyer convention of never asking a question unless you know what the answer is. This does not mean the UK will block a referendum forever. It means that, as with Northern Ireland, the UK government wants to be sure that they will definitely lose, so they can lay the necessary groundwork and make it a self-executing What You Vote For Is What You Get referendum. They can't lay that groundwork until they've already accepted defeat, because it'd be seized upon as a concession by the opposition. They can't possibly accept defeat when the outcome is unpredictable.

      It may seem like a catch-22, but it's not. All we have to do is break past 55% of the popular vote in parliamentary elections. We've managed to exceed 50% on the Holyrood list in 2021, but not where constituencies are concerned.

      This is why I think Alba should never have aped the SNP's broad church approach. Going hard-right from the start and targeting the Tory voters who have since switched to Reform UK... devastating to the unionist cause.

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    4. If it became apparent that they would definitely lose wouldn't that make a referendum even less like likely as no UK Prime Minister would want to risk being forever remembered as the PM who allowed the breakup of the UK to happen?

      All they need to do is just keep doing what they've been doing: Deny Section 30 Order requests and if the SNP aren't willing to do anything beyond asking for permission the UK Government don't have anything to fear.

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    5. By that point it will have been baked in. Whoever becomes the PM subsequently would know it's a fait accomplici. They would be looking to establish themselves as the first PM of a refreshed nation, not the last PM of an old nation.

      It's like that Sue Gray's Shit List that got leaked a while back. Thames Water collapse, public sector pay negotiations, prison overcrowding, and universities, the NHS and councils going bust. They know these things are coming, can't be stopped and they're in damage control mode - no longer trying to stop, but to soften the impact.

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  12. ****** ATTENTION PLEASE ATTENTION******

    This is an appeal to all supporters of independence to get behind the SNP.
    Don’t waste your vote, vote for the one party who can lead us to independence.

    TO KEEP INDEPENDENCE ALIVE, VOTE SNP.

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  13. I don't think Sunak is one of the worst PMs in history. He was following a total charlatan who followed a liar.

    I'm not a fan of the Tories but I think this ratings are due to the party he's in more than anything else.

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  14. I note that Craig Murray is no longer included in the 'other blogs' list. Is this because of the things mentioned in an earlier SGP post?

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  15. I agrre with Anonymous 9:30 that the lectorate doesnt believe that independence is on the horizon.However,I do believe that in order to convince Westminster to let us have another referendum,we need to find a way of increasing the Yes response in surveys,substantially.The thinking here is that this will either put pressure on Westminster to allow a referendum,and/or that outcome it can be used to appeal to international community community to put pressure on Westminster.In order to increase the Yes vote beyond the current range of 45-51 percent,it is necessary to demonstrate clearly how independence could improve the quality of life,and is important to everything that people care about.For years the unionists have complained that the SNP are so obssesed with independence that they are ignoring what people are concerned about,such as,poverty,cost of living,health care etc.It is time to demolish that argument.

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    1. " It is time to demolish that argument." Why just now? It's always been there as a fundamental argument for independence. So why just now?
      The SNP government have continually produced the GERS report that undermines that argument by falsely stating that Scotland has a laughable massive deficit. You cannae really have a deficit or surplus unless you are independent but still the Scotgov have never kicked GERS in to touch or even replaced it.

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    2. Important question to ask: Why would Westminster be more likely to allow a referendum when it's all but certain that they'd lose it? No Prime Minister wants to be remembered as the one who broke-up the union.

      If anything the higher the support for independence is the more likely Westminster are to do everything they can to prevent it from happening.

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    3. This thinking is everything that is wrong with the SNP/ALBA approach to independence
      Use of phrases such as "convince Westminster" "let us have" "allow a referendum" "pressure on Westminster" show a complete lack of understanding that we are already a sovereign nation and our sovereignty rests with the people
      Sadly the SNP and ALBA have not yet grasped this either and in the SNP's case do not want to rock the Westminster gravy boat which funds them
      Anon at 9:30 is correct - mechanism first then campaign around that and the mechanism needed is for pro-independence parties to stand on manifesto commitments to introduce legislation for Holyrood to run referendums in Scotland on ANY subject including the constitution
      If a Holyrood majority is secured on that basis to ASSERT Scotland's sovereignty by holding a non-Westminster-sanctioned referendum i.e NOT S30 then do that and let the UK take it to court to argue either that Scots DO NOT have a right to self-determination or to explain what the democratic route out of the union is

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    4. I really think a lot of people are pretty sick fed up of the independence argument.
      Personally I think the whole thing should be put on hold for now, maybe revisited in a few years time with increased intensity, after in all probability, Labour haven’t delivered and people realise they’re no better than the Tories.

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    5. My contribution at 10:17 has had a response that I wanted.There must be many ideas about the best route to follow in order to achieve independence.What we do need is a stuation where all ideas are examined,and all parts of the independance movement can contribute without being insulted.I think that the current divisions are not helpful because they prevent the the development of creative ideas and an ability to think outside of the box.That is essential if we are to move forward.I especially the contribution
      from Neth.It is something that could be developed further.While I share the frustrations as many others on this forum,I do believe that it is critical that the SNP retain a lot of seats in the coming election.While heavily outnumbered SNP MPś in a very hostile environment can do very little,this side of independance we need their voices to speak up on our behalf.


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    6. What really should have happened is that Constitutional Convention Alba called for following the last Scottish Parliament election. All pro-indy Parties and organisations need to get into a room together and discuss the best way forward.

      Part of the annoyance within the wider Yes movement is that some insist that the only form of "unity" on the table is for everyone else to just shut-up and get behind the SNP.

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    7. Anon at 11:59
      Absolutely agreed all ideas should be on table and debated and agreed also to Anon at 12:12 that some Constitutional Convention is required
      I get where you're coming from re SNP seats but for me the danger is that returning (ineffectual) SNP MPs to Westminster
      tells the SNP that they can carry on being ineffectual
      They need a wake up call that they need to employ some new thinking and not just continue to sell our sovereignty short by their commitment to working within the UK idea of what sovereignty is
      If ISP were standing in my constituency they would get my vote
      As it is it will probably be a repurposed ballot as per

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  16. NEW: Starmer beats Sunak in televised debate overnight poll

    Who won the debate:

    Starmer (44%)
    Sunak (39%)
    Don’t Know (17%)

    1,153 UK adults, 4-5 June

    Savanta

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  17. Get Craig Murray the fuck out of the Workers Party. The Workers Party needs workers not cunts like Craig Murray.

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  18. I dont agree with the comment that we should put independance on hold ,until a Labour government makes a mess of things,which is very likely.We need independence quickly.I say this not because I have wanted it all of my life,and am now 78 years old.I think that we need independence now because we have so many problems that can only be fixed when we become an independent nation.I would also add that as an SNP member since Margo McDonald won the Govan by-election in 1974,I know that the party is not perfect.However,I do hope that many former voters who have turned away from them,will vote SNP on the 4th July.I always try to see the big picture which is not to damage a major part of the independance movement.I welcome the fact that the indepence movement is wider than the SNP,but if the SNP are seriously damaged on the 4th July,that will be a serious blw to all of us.

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    1. Independence (the restoration or re-asseertion of sovereignty) should never be put on hold
      It should be front and centre of every debate until the message get home to voters that it is the key to all of the other issues which affect everyday lives in Scotland
      Most voters don't engage with politics except during elections and then they vote broadly with what they perceive parties are about based on media soundbites
      Independence parties should be unequivocally about independence

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    2. Trouble is also that many see the SNP and Independence like 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf' as they've used it to get elected in election after election but now many think: 'I just don't believe you anymore'.

      Apathy has taken hold as there's a feeling that whether the SNP wins or loses nothing will happen to progress independence regardless so what's the point?

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    3. It's never on hold for me. But I don't understand how the SNP have ran out of money. I think we've been completely ravaged by charlatans in that party. It doesn't make sense that a party of 70-100k members paying in subs, plus MPs dibs, for the best part of ten years has little money left.

      Like seriously what have they spent it on?

      Why was the "chief exec" on 130k a year? There are public bodies where the person is the "real" head of the organisation on less money than that. The "chief exec" should be running an HR department and making sure the posters and raffles are getting printed.. why has he taken annually this fee out of the cause?

      Why did we spend so much money on Office revamps?

      Why did we spend money on campervans.. i hesitate to say this?

      There's something not right about the accounts or at least why things were spent the way they were.

      PS I know this is a rant about SNP finances which is different from the post and I am thoroughly in the "we must give Swinney a chance and the SNP are the only ball in town" but I can't help but feel that they should be in a much better financial position.

      They should be in a position to be campaigning on the independence economy, democratic deficit etc. They haven't been investing in making the case.. all the while saying we need to "make the case".

      It feels like they were hollowed out. I can't fathom the finances thing at all. It hasn't been explained to me sufficiently.

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    4. I dont understand the finances either, or even the salaries on public record.

      I cannot understand why as an independence supporter you would think you should be taking 4 times the median salary out of the party. Would 75k not be enough for example? Even then I don't see how party admin should be on that. That's more than lawyers and accountants are on.

      I see Nicola Sturgeon present one way and then think, how did she think her husband should be on that kind of money. 165k is the FMs salary for goodness sake.

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    5. It was greed like that over the common man that moved me to independence.

      Maybe they are all the same. All of this under the Scot Parliament control. I have to ask if the CEO of Scottish Water stopped turning up would we really see much difference? Our CT freeze has been wiped out by Scottish water increases.. yet he gets a bonus? Seriously why?

      It seems to me little has been done to curb greed and the party i trusted to be different did nothing different really. When it came down to it

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    6. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-quangos-bosses-pocket-22m-30476763

      This was the link to above post

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  19. I agree mostly with what Neth has said.However,I dont agree that all SNP members have been inefectual at Westminster.Irrespective of our views about,an important question is what the impact will be on the independance movement as a whole,if the SNP do badly on the 4th July.I am an SNP member and I share the same frustrations that people who want to teach the party a lesson.However,I do hope that they will think about the cost.We know for certain,that the only people who would benefit are the unionists.They will be delighted,and there will be fewer voices speaking up on Scotlands behalf.



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    1. Something needs to change though, people are fed up of the status quo and don't want the next decade to be the same as the last one.

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    2. I do get the concern that fewer SNP MPs will be perceived as a lack of support for independence but we all know that is not actually the case - Yes/No has been broadly 50/50 for the last ten years
      My question is what good are those voices speaking up on Scotland's behalf? What do they actually achieve?
      Did they prevent "Scotland being dragged out of Europe against it's will"?
      Incidentally a "material change" in circumstances which was a promised trigger for a second S30 referendum
      Did those voices achieve a second S30 referendum?
      Are they preventing the imposition of freeports in Scotland?
      Are they getting nuclear missiles removed from the Clyde?
      Are they achieving anything?
      If not why vote for them?

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    3. SNP get fewer seats, as Starmer and UKplc are already punting, to them this shows that Scotland is now leaning surely towards wanting 'more of the union'. All the debates about what the SNP has done and hasn't been able to do are pointless right now because it's only when a vast majority in Scotland show interest in independence, that the SNP would ever have the clout to stand up and say 'this is the will of the Scottish people'. The Yes Movement, the thousands of them - haven't engaged the Scottish public into gagging for independence - which is odd given how many are in the Yes movement. The circling around domestic independence debates at this point is ignoring the fact that the SNP are globally the symbol of what Scotland wants and the SNP are the symbol of what Scotland wants in relation to how many MPs it has being returned to Westminster. That IS how the important influencers decide what Scotland wants whether you like it or not.

      The stupidest thing independence supporters can do at this GE is to NOT vote SNP. Starmer and his party already talking about how to change Scotland - the ONLY thing holding back some of those big moves from Westminster, have been the SNP presence in Holyrood and in Westminster.

      This is last chance saloon. SNP get wipe out or big loss - you don't even know if Holyrood will exist in its present legislative form in 2026. Listen closely to the messaging from the unionist parties. They think they have it in the bag. All those alleged independence supporters now declaring they are moving to Labour, going to mess up their ballot papers - this is kiddy stuff and pretendy stuff and not how any real independence supporters with a brain would behave. Listen to what all of the media presenters are saying - they are on script MORE than they were for the 2014 referendum. People still going on about indy party differences at this point and refusing to just this once back the independence symbol - the SNP - are not taking things seriously and are just wasting time. And of course will just turn out the trope they have been fed by rote by the you know who the last 4 years that everything is Nicola Sturgeon's or the SNP's fault. How accountable is the Yes Movement for not getting the majority of Scotland gagging for independence? Oh nae accountability - we jist sit back and moan aboot the SNP. People are not serious enough to see the writing on the wall here and there are an awfy lot of 'supposed independence supporters' who are past Labour voters in the Yes movement who are really fair excited at how their beloved Labour is on the up - and are just drifting to where they would be expected to drift when it looks like Labour are on a high and a win. Nostalgia mindsets have been a killer for the independence movement right through. Just like 'oh look there's a spitfire'.

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    4. Another SNP drone telling everyone who disagrees with him how stupid they are. Way to reach out and persuade waverers with that attitude!

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    5. Anon @ 2:03PM... You kind of contradict yourself there. You say that the SNP are the globally recognised symbol of what Scotland wants but then essentially say the SNP are blameless when it comes to a lack of progress on independence and it's all the wider movements fault.

      If it's up to the wider Yes movement to progress independence... what exactly are the SNP doing? Are they just there for optics but pass the buck on doing the actual work? It's astonishing that you're essentially saying that we need to elect leaders but it's not their job to actually lead.

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    6. ......only when a vast majority in Scotland show interest in independence....

      Unfortunately the SNP are doing NOTHING to move people in this direction either by their performance in (devolved) government or by their blind adherence to UK constitutional fallacies

      ...SNP are globally the symbol of what Scotland wants...

      They need to be more than just a symbol (and an ineffective one at that) otherwise we will just get decades more of 50+ SNP MPs bleating at Westminster and being totally ignored
      If they start showing some understanding of the constitutional realities of the UK and engage with the wider movement (including Salvo and Liberation.scot) in identifying strategies to combat the illegal usurpment of Scottish resources since this accursed union began then I might consider once more giving them my vote

      ...This is last chance saloon. SNP get wipe out or big loss...

      They will lose seats (and short money) in this election but they won't get wiped out - there are enough party faithful among the wider voters who don't really analyse what the SNP currently are and will vote for them as your "symbol" of independence even if they are not offering any way to actually achieve independence

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    7. Anon at 4:57 is me
      Forgot to add name!

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    8. Anon at 3.19

      Agree and disagree

      The SNP cannot progress something which is not backed unequivocally by a majority.

      Sturgeon made a mess of Supreme Court. if she was going to go there, she had to go Defacto and not chicken out. If she didn't think Scotland was ready for Defacto, she should not have gone to Supreme Court.

      However, Scotland not being ready for Defacto referendums is not necessarily in the SNP's hands.

      Sturgeon left a mess for others to handle (and I like(d) the women). Swinney can't go in 2 weeks before a GE, with no build up, and claim a Defacto vote is on the cards. That needs to be built up in the Scottish psyche first.

      Bottom line, SNP have made errors but getting rid of them would be a worse one.

      Just my take.

      Delete
    9. "The SNP cannot progress something which is not backed unequivocally by a majority"

      Isn't the defining purpose of the SNPs reason for being not to convince people that independence is a good idea?

      They've been elected on more than one mandate to hold another referendum on independence, that route has been blocked so the onus is on them to pursue alternative avenues to achieve the same goal.

      Then when we finally have a viable mechanism in place we can win people over to our side during a proper campaign in the lead-up to it. Keeping in mind that the biggest increase in support for independence was during the last proper campaign when there was a realistic possibility of it actually happening.

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    10. Yes and the mechanism prob is a GE defacto vote but the circumstances right now don't lend itself to that . Spinney can't magic that up right now.

      We can have the mechanism and allow the people to have their say.

      On the other hand we had a vote in 2014 and should we really have another one when no clear majority wants it? You can see how London cam say no when the people haven't really moved.

      Delete
    11. Anon at 2.03pm - everything I have posted about Sturgeon and her gang controlling the SNP has been proven correct. Anon at 2.22pm has you described perfectly - SNP drone.

      Delete
  20. I heard that Stephen Flynn won it and he wasn't even there.

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  21. Neth,I have some of the same frustrations as you.However,while the Yes/No split is broadly 50/50 just now,we do not know how a bad election for a major part of the independent movement would effect that.We do know how the unionists would respond,and that could damage moral of many people.While I am comfortable with different ideas about how to progress,I do believe that a desire to teach the SNP a lesson is risky

    The prevention of Brexit and removal of nuclear submarines could only be achieved by independance and it is unrealistic to expect SNP MPs to achieve that in a parliament dominated by English MPś and larger parties.That does not mean,that this side of independance they should not be there.I think their prescence does put a break on some of the excesses of that parliament.In spite of the fact that the arithmetic restricts what they can achieve,it is better than nothing.Unlike Tory and Labour MPs elected in Scotland Scotland,they speak up for Scotlands interests.Of course we could ask:What is the point of any MPs from Scotland,at Westminster? I guess the answer is that they are there because we are not yet an independent nation,and if we dont take part,we might be totally ignored.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. “We might be totally ignored” we have been
      for hundreds of years. Where have you been?

      Delete
  22. "The prevention of Brexit"

    Isn't it a little late for that?

    Even if you're pro-EU at this stage we would need to join as a new member (which can take a number of years) and it wouldn't be on the same terms/opt-outs we had previously. The ship has long sailed on preventing Brexit.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why do you britnats waste your time on here ; you will never influence Indy supporters wi your pathetic comments.
      Soar Alba!

      Delete
    2. What's pathetic in saying that Brexit has happened? Unless we have access to Doc Brown's DeLorean it's a little late to prevent it.

      Delete
    3. When will eejits like anon 3.45 realise that they are simply British nationaliats - britnats. Worse still they are imperialist inclined and deny other countries like Scotland their right of self- determination. As to the EU. Aye we ken fine it might take a wee while to get back in .. Meantime though, we could be back close to Europe and back, for example, in the single market like Norway -
      Soar Alba

      Delete
  23. Pathetic nonsense? Independence is natural and normal.It is about an ability to make your own decisions and have them respected.All independent countries in Europe,many smaller than Scotland,with fewer resources,manage their affairs very well,and would find your notion Anonymous 3:08 that independence is pathetic nonsense to be bizzare.One example is my wifes country of Finland.It has the same population as Scotland and a good quality of health care,free education,and a good infrastructure.Nobody needs to sleep on the streets in Finland unless they choose to


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anon at 4:18 pm .... Don't be silly.

      Delete
    2. Anon at 4:37, ?????

      Delete
  24. A SNP vote is informing England that Scotland rejects their union no matter what they say or do
    A vote for anyone else is informing England that Scotland is disunited which is exactly what they want

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    Replies
    1. Well said.
      I find it utterly incredible that many Indy supporters are considering shunning the SNP at the GE. Absolutely bonkers.

      Delete
    2. I find it utterly incredible that many Indy supporters are considering voting SNP at the GE, given their record of non-achievement over the last ten years.
      Absolutely bonkers.

      Delete
    3. Anon at 5.12. Take some responsibility. Blaming everyone else is easy. What have you done?

      Delete
    4. Isn't that what SNP supporters are doing: Blaming everyone else rather than their own Party leadership?

      Delete
    5. Anon at 5.39pm - well worth repeating. Dr Jim WGD nasty numpty at 4.44pm posting his nicophantic rubbish again as if the SNP own independence supporters. Sturgeon and her gang created the division.

      Delete
    6. Anon 5:31, I've done nothing bar waste my vote on the SNP on every election for 30 odd years. The difference is I'm not asking people to vote for me so that I can sit on my arse for another five years while I ignore the people who put me there. Stick that in your ballot box and smoke it.

      Delete
    7. Anon at 6.29. Up off your arse and do something. It has always been our responsibility to persuade others on an individual one to one basis, to support Indy.

      Delete
    8. And how successful have you been wise guy? We're still not independent I see.

      Delete
    9. Sitting on your arse then, like all the other naysayers on here. Never knocked a door or given out a leaflet in your puff. Your anger at being confronted tell its own story. I’ve done what I can as an individual. You’ve done SFA.

      Delete
  25. Does anybody know if the SNP battle bus is available for election campaigning?

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    Replies
    1. hahah that is a good one. Black humour there.

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    2. Seen that one already. The regular Tory posters on the BBC HYS think that is zenith of political satire. Coincidence that it appears here? I don't think so 🤔

      Delete
    3. In fairness it is quite funny

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    4. Of course it's funny, as is the idea of an SNP election campaign.

      Delete
  26. Or you having an original thought. Britnat

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  27. Tell that to all the indepedant nations in the world.I think that they will surprised to learn that independence is complete and utter lunancy.

    ReplyDelete