Saturday, April 20, 2024

On the whole, it would be a relief if the Greens withdraw from the coalition

As long-term readers may recall, I initially supported the idea of an SNP-Green coalition after the 2021 election.  The unionist establishment and media were rather implausibly arguing at the time that the SNP falling one seat short of an overall majority somehow tarnished the mandate for an independence referendum, and it seemed to me that putting together a government with a clear parliamentary majority comprised of two parties that both had commitments to independence and to a referendum in their manifestos was a powerful way of making the point that the mandate was in fact watertight.  There was also quite a bit of harmony between the SNP and Greens on non-independence matters, and although I passionately disagreed with both parties on some of those points of harmony, it seemed to me there was no harm in the independence movement benefiting from a strong basis for cooperation.

However, that logic only held true if the Scottish Government was actually going to do something about independence during this five-year parliamentary term.  Clearly they intend to instead let yet another mandate expire, in which case the underscoring of how clear the mandate is no longer has any great relevance, and all we're really left with are the downsides of the Bute House Agreement.  Fergus Ewing is probably overstating the case when he says the public will heavily punish the SNP for association with the "extremist" Greens, but it's undoubtedly the case that the agreement has left the SNP with far less flexibility than they otherwise would have had in reacting to disquiet on a whole range of policies the public have found objectionable or irritating.

It therefore ought to be something of a relief for SNP members if the Greens do the hard part for them by breaking off the agreement.  That's probably the only way it would ever happen, although it's unlikely to happen even that way given that Patrick Harvie and Lorna Slater sound extremely keen to be allowed to remain in ministerial office.

The one caveat I'd add is that there is - amazingly - one key policy on which I think the Greens are completely right, and both the SNP and my own party Alba are completely wrong.  That's the Green opposition to the heavily ideological (some would say "woowoo-based") Nordic Model on prostitution law.  Although that subject is excluded from the Bute House Agreement, it's probably fair to say that Green involvement in government has helpfully put the brakes on any move towards introducing the Nordic Model in Scotland.  But that benefit perhaps isn't enough to outweigh the bigger picture.

*  *  *

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76 comments:

  1. From the National: 'An SNP spokesperson said: "The Bute House Agreement has been in place for two and a half years and has delivered a shared policy programme to face the challenges and opportunities Scotland has ...'

    ... during which time support for the SNP has dropped from 48% in the opinion polls to 32% and dropping.

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    1. Lord of the SlippersApril 20, 2024 at 12:54 PM

      I'd expect at least half of that lost support to return overnight if the BHA is torn up. If Yousaf can build on that momentum and soften up his cabinet a bit with a few dissenting voices much of the damage will be undone.

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    2. Yes it’d help some. Way too optimistic, Lord of the Slippers.

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    3. Yes, I think it could recover a fair bit. Half sounds about right. Yousaf has already ditched some of the least popular stuff.

      In that tine roughly, the Greens have gone from 9% to say 12% and back to 9% on the regional vote.

      James would do a better job of course.

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    4. It’s obviously just a guess, but I’m estimating a third recovery rather than half. Happy if I’m proven to be underestimating :-)

      Southside Ian

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    5. Yi2- I think you will be proved wrong despite your attempts to undermine here and at WGD.

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    6. Is 'undermine' your new word de jour? Buy a dictionary for God's sake!

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  2. Chill out everyone. All that matters at the moment is that the Greens exit government. Unlike James, I’m reasonably confident that’s exactly what their membership is about to vote to do, perhaps handily.

    Hopeful :-)

    Southside Ian

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    Replies
    1. If they sat together it might be true. But watch our for weasel words from the thrumbles.

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    2. I sympathise with the regular ecology-minded green party membership. I hope whatever mechanism they have to make their voice heard works well for them at the coming “extraordinary” general meeting. The SNP has failed them, too. It’s time to leave the coalition and leave them to sink or swim.

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  3. Better yet if they collapse SG in a big stooshie about who will benefit most from embezzlements arising from the sale of our oil - then embrace the opportunity to clarify the situation with 2 defacto referendums on the same day.

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  4. Delusional. I can see why albanists want to hurt the Greens as they think it will help them. Not the only party that puts independence way down their ambitions.

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  5. Despite years of the Tories in Westminster and Brexit, supporters of independence remain in a minority.
    With Labour looking like winning the GE and Brexit ever further in the rear view mirror, things ain’t going to improve for Nats, that’s for sure.
    Time to accept facts, give up on the nonsense of independence and move on.

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    1. Britnat KC wants everyone to accept being a colonial possession of England with no human rights. That's his " move on " vision. KC loves being on his knees licking England's arse - anyone else in to subservience, subjugation, arse licking and general humiliation then contact KC he will show you where to sign up.

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  6. But wait, would the legislature continue if the Greens exit government?

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    1. But wait, would the quality of policy making and implementation improve if the Greens exit government? Well, it could hardly get any worse.

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  7. Purely personal opinion here, I do emphasise that....... I think the SNP would recover a good chunk of, but not all lost ground, potentially leading to a '17 style "reasonable" result as opposed to the 19-28 seat range that seems to be touted at present.

    I voted for Corbyn in '17, tending to SNP now, and would dearly like to see the greens moved on and some of their more outlandish proposals ditched.

    Regards,
    Michael.

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    1. Good to hear you are voting SNP again. SNP activists are a hard working bunch - out and working while most Scots are still under their covers.

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    2. If they come to my door, they’re getting some questions. I’d like to know what they’ll do when their next section 30 request is refused and absolutely nothing happens.

      I’ll also ask them how many refused section 30 requests they reckon there’s already been. It’s embarrassingly many. That route is dead and so is their only strategy.

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    3. https://youtu.be/f4SnSppUGJY?si=MFOx-GVfseuKvPX0

      Excellent campaign speech today by humza.

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  8. Can you explain your statement about the SNP "letting another mandate expire"? The SNP and the Scottish independence movement as a whole have only ever had two "mandates" for the progression of an independence referendum. The first was in 2011 and we obtained a referendum from that. The second mandate came from the 2021 Scottish elections.and Westminster blocked us from having a referendum which the SNP requested. How can that in any way be interpreted as the SNP letting the mandate expire?

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    1. Section 30 please please pretty pretty please, WE BEG OF YOU!

      That is no strategy and that is not what your mandate is for.

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    2. It was a "no ifs, no buts" promise. When Nicola Sturgeon finally spelt out how she intended to deliver that if the Supreme Court blocked her, she said the Westminster election would double as a de facto referendum. That promise has been betrayed by the new SNP leadership and thus the mandate will be allowed to expire. And this is not the second mandate, it's the fifth. 2011, 2016, 2017, 2019 and 2021.

      Hope this helps.

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    3. Anon at 7pm - Sturgeon and now Yousaf could have called a de facto Holyrood referendum at any time even in May 2021. So give it a rest with your pathetic excuses.

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    4. Nothing has been betrayed by the SNP and you well know it
      What is the threat issued by the UK government if the Scottish government refuse to comply with their Supreme court ruling?

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    5. What is the reason Nicola Sturgeon was denied a referendum which Alex Salmond was granted?
      The UK government knew they would win 2014
      Following the election of Nicola Sturgeon the UK government knew they would lose any vote on independence, they still do, that's why they will never co-operate again

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    6. 2014 scared the bejesus out of them.

      2017 proved that “now is not the time” actually works.

      They will never cooperate again in their own destruction. We must take the initiative.

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    7. DrJim @ 9:58: Then why keep asking?

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    8. Anon at 1.27am Dr Jim never lets the obvious truth interfere with his storylines.

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  9. Apparently the SG are quietly confident the Glen Sannox will be in service for the 2026 summer season (so maybe a wee bit of good news just before the Holyrood election).
    They do however caution that it’s too early to say with any confidence which year Glen Rosa may enter service.

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  10. I went to the march today. Smallest I’ve ever been on in Glasgow, that’s for sure. Mind, AUOB hasn’t been too great since Covid, either. But aye, this was all the more disappointing.

    I went to BIS’s Edinburgh march last year (I’m a local). Turnout there was much better. The Greens were out in surprising force that time, but not so today. A handful were out today but only a fraction of their turnout in Edinburgh last year. A sense of disappointment and coming separation from Scotgov? Or are grassroots Greens as scunnered as the rest of us?

    Think I saw Tommy Shepard with the Edinburgh East section and, obvs, Humza up front. Besides the FM, the recognisable politicians were as few and far between as I’ve ever seen; even in places like Galashiels, Campbeltown and Oban!

    Can you just imagine what it would have been like if Nicola joined us back in the 100k+ days? Her ritual absence from every indy march in Scotland was a red flag even then.

    I’ll go to the AUOB in a fortnight, too. I enjoy the walk. Hope a bigger turnout then. Will be looking all around to see who’s different.

    Oh, and Salvo were on this march. They had a bullhorn and pushed their message from the middle of the march, just like it was an AUOB. Even noticed Sìol nan Gàidheal and a few gender critical feminists at the rally.

    Near the end I popped into a café for a leak. The teens in there were asking each other: what are they demonstrating? “Gaza,” they decided, fair enough. The balance of flags near the front would naturally lead you to that conclusion.

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    1. Almost as many rainbow and Palestinian flags as saltires. What has become of Scottish independence?

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    2. Even the independence marches have been divided by Sturgeon's gang.

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    3. I take it you never went. No permission from your MI5 handlers?

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    4. I spent the afternoon with friends at TopGolf in Rutherglen. Very enjoyable it was. More people there than bothering to listen to Yousaf. So few people there Glasgow boy Yousaf could probably count the white people - white white white white white white white white white white white ...............................

      Sturgeon never got permission from her MI5 handler to attend AUOB marches ( the REAL independence marches) but pitched up in Glasgow at the SNP/National version in Glasgow in Nov 2019 - oh that's right just before an election. A big crowd of numpties queued up for selfies with her.

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    5. Message matters, and the banner everyone was marching behind said "Believe in Scotland". Well, great, so we should, Six Nations, Euros etc., but WTF does that have to do with Independence to those who've never heard of the organisation - like most people outside the self-absorbed bubble?

      I was going to go but was put off a bit by the idea of the march being taken over by a protest over Palestine, which is a totally different issue, even for those who do support it.

      But then the Greens turn out to have said they'll not be on the same platform as Salmond, so with quite unbelievable tolerance, Alba put it to a meeting and come up with a differnet speaker (McAskill I think). Lo and behold the Greens say they won't now share a platform with Alba at all and instead of MacIntyre-Kemp telling them firmly that they will allow all pro-indy parties to have a speaker, they meekly bend down to the greens and ban Alba from the platform.

      That was it for me, I cut the grass instead, and I'd be the same if any march organisers banned the Greens, or the SNP, or ISP, or anyone major in the Indy movement. Turns out they spent half their time talking about the BHA - a party political (disaster) issue. Or TW3.

      AUOB aren;t any better with their banner saying something about Poverty which could just as well be any protest against benefits sanctions, energy prices, taxation, or WASPI. Not anything about Independence.

      They're all as bad as each other, too scairt to put the word INDEPENDENCE front and centre. I'm sick of the lot of them.

      Message matters you dimwits. Keep it simple stupid.

      INDEPENDENCE

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    6. Alba were not banned, get your facts right instead of making them up as usual
      Truth matters you stupid dimwit

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    7. Dr Jim at 1.34am - you are posting a lot on SGP these days. If truth matters to you Jimbo why not stop posting lies.

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    8. Anonymous ignoramus at 1.34 am

      Take it up with the National and BiS.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/24256503.alba-issues-statement-amid-row-believe-scotland-rally-speakers/

      However, there will be no speaker from Alba present. In a Facebook comment, Believe in Scotland said Alba were “the very first organisation” asked to take part.
      It said this was because the Scottish Greens “will not share a platform with Alba (which we do not agree with)”.


      and

      "On April 8 it was confirmed to Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp that Alba Party depute leader Kenny MacAskill MP would represent the party at the rally."
      However, the statement added that Kemp then replied to the party to say they were "too late" in giving a response.


      Join the dots if you have even a dim wit, which I doubt.

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    9. And this from the same article from BiS themselves just in case you go "But but but" like a goat in a trance:

      The fact of the matter is that BiS offered Alba the chance to speak before approaching any other parties and we made it clear that accepting quickly would have meant that the Scottish Green Party would rule themselves out.

      Anything you don't understand about that?

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    10. Are Yi2 and pretend IFS one and the same spouting their nonsense, I was a bit surprised by the racist comments of IFS “.. Yousaf could probably count the white people - white white white white white white white white white white white ...............................“ confirming that IFS preferred to be a few miles away playing golf with some of his right wing chums. I think this confirms his real Brit nasty credentials. Personally, the walk was good considering a Scottish Cup semi final was on.

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    11. Anonymous how is that racist? It was Humza that famously recounted the number of white people in positions in Scotland. So was Humza being racist as well in your opinion? Or are you just being silly?
      Also how exactly do you know ifs friends are right wing? Sound like you are just making up stuff to have a cheap go at ifs.

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    12. Ifs who was with his golfing pals — he made the comments and chose to publish them.

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    13. It's racist to quote Humza's own words back at him? Get a grip of yourself you idiot.🤡

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    14. Anon@11:37 Far from being the same person, IFS and YesIndy had to agree to stop sniping at each other when James first opened up comments. You, however, choose to hide behind anonymity with your half-baked opinions. How many posts are actually all from you?

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    15. Anon I asked you why it was racist - no answer. Calling someone racist and you can’t back it up
      Is a disgrace.
      So all people who play golf support the union do they - anon you have just proved that Rodney is not the only plonker in town.

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  11. https://youtu.be/f4SnSppUGJY?si=MFOx-GVfseuKvPX0

    Good Humza speech at believe in scotland rally . Addresses independence and current issues. Great reception from crowd. Well crafted speech

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    1. He mentions benefits of independence focusing on better treatment of asylum seekers and higher pensioner benefits. Decent crowd.

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    2. Positive atmosphere at the Believe in Scotland event. A real sense of empowerment.

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    3. " Decent crowd says an anon 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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    4. IfS. Why poke fun at the anon assessment of the Believe in Scotland crowd?

      SNP activists are hard working and up and at work working for the SNP when others are still under their covers.

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    5. IFS, sounding more and more like a defeatist who’s given up on independence.

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    6. I was there. The crowd in George Square was a tenth what it was for Nicola in 2019. Only the Brits had the same turnout they did back then.

      It’s not IfS who’s stifling the movement: it’s the abject lack of leadership from the top. Why are we waiting? Waiting waiting waiting?

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    7. "SNP activists are hard working and up and at work working for the SNP when others are still under their covers."

      Knock knock
      Who's there (yawn) waking me up at this unearthly hour?
      SNP activist
      Wait a wee minit (fx: gets chanty, opens door, hurls contents over activist)

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    8. Yi2 who isn’t a snp or independent minded.

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    9. But is he an 'underminer'? 🤡

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    10. Anon @ 9.40am I think it is clear that ifs has given up on the SNP. That is not the same as giving up on independence and the fact that you see both as the same is part of the problem.

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  12. Independence supporters who support different pro Indy parties arguing with each other!
    We need all independence supporters getting behind one strong pro Indy party, otherwise this isn’t going to end well.

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    1. We’re an SNP short…

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    2. "getting behind one strong pro Indy party"

      Yes, but who is that?

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  13. Anonymous @9:53
    Easy to see it in retrospect, but granting England its independence in 2017 GE would have avoided most of the problems associated with any betrayals referred to (especially those not directly related to the Salmond trial).

    That being true, the decision to interpret Scotland's sovereign will as a mandate to provide self harming, and ultimately futile, moral and political support to EU citizens residing in England (& hoping to remain), was probably more the type of behaviour, right up to the whole point of a monster hangover,, that defines us, than anything particularly nefarious, - so extremely easy to excuse, with or without an apology.

    Great question regarding the 'threat' associated with ignoring a court arguably foreseen by, and specifically excluded from, the treaty of union, though.

    Deserves testing to the fullest extent possible, asap

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    1. ie as well as collapsing Holyrood to secure a second defacto indyref on GE day, greens could go the whole 9 yards and support a bill from Ash Reagan to complete the triple lock with an SG approved, non defacto, indyref on same day,

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  14. Not 100% sure I heard correctly, but I think it said on the 10 news on the radio there were 2000 at yesterdays independence March in Glasgow.
    Wow, that’s really going to strike fear in unionists!

    Independence, the settled will of the people. Aye right🤣🤣🤣

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    1. Apparently the actual figure was nearer the 1000 mark!

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    2. Sadly it would appear the days of large numbers of people turning up for independence marches are in the past.

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    3. Lesley Riddoch said that the Murrell charges meant it was more important than ever to turn up to show support.

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  15. In a parliament with a voting system set up to ensure 1 party cannot win a majority, it seems logical to me that an Indy coalition is the way forward, what SGP is promoting here is an end to the SNP/Green coalition and replacing it with an SNP/Alba one, but hey remember, you can't gain the PR system.

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    1. There will be no SNP / Alba coalition, that’s utterly fanciful. Is the SGP promoting one? Really ?!?

      Ultimately, we don’t need these other Indy parties, just the SNP - once it’s sorted itself out from its own putrid mess.

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    2. you're a funny loon, I take it you're a new visitor to this blog,
      an SNP/Alba coalition is what SGP promoted at the last election,
      aye, really.

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  16. I suspect the SNP are going to let Humza lose the GE, then the mutiny will begin. No point bringing in a Kate Forbes until after the SNP have been humiliated.

    The next Scottish election is the one that matters. Plenty of time for people to be let down by the red Tories, and SNP to rebuild. Starmer has just declared his English patriotism. So much for 'One Nation'.

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    1. Kate Forbes is a good choice from my perspective as she has good values.

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    2. Such a load of tosh. Forbes lost the election for leader as voted by SNP members. End of story. Non snp members don’t get a vote although they seem to expect they should have one!

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  17. Forbes has a moral compass. And by God that is needed these days! Even if you aren't religious. Too much pandering to extreme groups in society. The SNP has lost it's way, and the Greens are just oddballs.

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    1. She is on the side of good unlike Greens.

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  18. I suppose ALBA needs to pinch the Green votes to get anywhere. Problem is for them they don’t have green credentials. They are more attuned with the tories.

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