You'd need to have better knowledge of the arcane list of Westminster rules and conventions than I have to know what is possible and where the vulnerabilities of the system lie, but to give one trivial example, the SNP should refuse to use "Hear, hear" as the indication of agreement with what another member is saying, and just use clapping instead. They clearly did that the other day as an intentional form of low-grade resistance to Hoyle (ie. to wind him up) but they should make it a universal practice from now on. Hoyle will go nuts every time it happens, and that would be the whole aim of the exercise. There's nothing realistically he can do about it - he can't suspend the entire SNP parliamentary party on a daily basis. In a sense he'd be doing the SNP's work for them by constantly causing his own parliamentary disruption with pointless, pompous lectures on the subject. And I'm not sure the SNP would get the blame for it, because the public would just be bemused that the Speaker is so obsessed with forcing MPs to use weird grunting noises rather than clapping like normal people do.
Tuesday, February 27, 2024
What Westminster needs now is a big round of applause
When a corrupt Speaker is in place, when that Speaker is in the pocket of the leader of one particular party, and when there aren't currently the numbers to dislodge that Speaker, there's a limit to what the SNP can do to fight back against their rights being trampled on. But that doesn't mean they can do nothing. Opposition parties have run campaigns of constructive parliamentary non-cooperation in the past, sometimes quite effectively. I recall Labour did it for a few months under John Smith in around 1993 or 1994.
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The British nationalist establishment will carry on the same as usual, thank you very much, no matter how brave, courageous, awe-inspiring, noble, stupendous and radical the SNP's happy-clapping campaign would be.
ReplyDeleteHmmm, not sure about that. It wouldn't single-handedly bring the Union down. But it would bug them.
DeleteIt would annoy them and any action to counteract it would result in more frustration about the archaic ways of Westminster and possibly lead more people to think 'Why do we need Westminster?'.
DeleteAnon at 8.30pm - you may well be correct that there is value in this action. If so why have they waited all these long years ( assuming they actually do anything). Were all the times being told to pissof re sec 30 not a good enough reason. What about the London court case saying we are not allowed a referendum. Was that not a good enough reason? What about Westminster voting against our human right to self determination. Was that not a good enough reason?
DeleteThe only conclusion that can be drawn is they don't want to rock the Westminster boat that provides them with a very comfortable lifestyle while the poverty level in Scotland is at 19% of the population. It's the I'm Alright Jack syndrome
All this is just an attempt at political point scoring by the SNP. It’s what we’ve become used to from them. Trying to make political gain out of a tragedy, just like Sturgeon during Covid.
ReplyDeleteYou posted an almost identical comment on the previous thread. Our resident unionist troll, I presume?
DeleteI remember Bercow telling off the SNP contingent for clapping in the early days of the 56. I think it was youthful naivety more than protest on that occasion.
ReplyDeleteThe SNP have rather painted themselves into a corner with their clear intention to use 'making Scotland's voice heard' as their GE slogan. They can't be walking out of the chamber every other day or disrupting parliamentary process by non conformity if that slogan is to be taken seriously.
However, through being professional and competent I think they came out of last week's shambles well. Continue as they are doing and let the rest make the mistakes.
'making Scotland's voice heard' is a wonderful slogan for the current SNP in London. *How* exactly do you do that? They literally just rewrote the rules specifically to shut you up, while you already have a majority of Scotland's seats. What are you doing about it? What can you do when you are implicitly committed to remaining there?
ReplyDeleteThey might as well run on "'making the tooth fairy visible." It's equally as appropriate a summary of their strategy!
And if they lose as many seats as the polls say, does that mean Scotland wants its voice to be dialled down even more? Aren't we already on Mute?
DeleteSorry to break it to you anon at 7.38am if you are on mute you can't be " dialled down even more."
DeleteThe SNP do make Scotland’s voice heard in Westminster, and will continue to do so, even if their numbers are reduced at the GE.
DeleteTerence Callachan Dundee , SNP and ALBA in Westminster serves no purpose they are ignored or shouted down and treated with contempt , even when those on the other benches break the rules its a no win situation for them always.
DeleteEven when SNP ALBA support a successful motion by the other parties its not really a win for them because its the other parties that are credited with the success.
We know its a waste of time SNP and ALBA being there just like it was a waste of time Labour MPs from Scotland being there all those years previously , nothing was acheived , we were fed lies by the newspapers and BBC in Scotland , fooled and hoodwinked for decades, but now , we have the internet , new dommunication channels like this , we can get to the truth, it hasnt changed Westminster , yet , but it will , what it has changed is peoples perspective of the newspapers and the BBC who we now see for what they are , propaganda units helping Englands propaganda war against Scotland.
I think that if SNP and ALBA withdrew from Westminster it would cause a furore initially but within a few weeks theyd be forgotten the newspapers tv radio etc would initiate zero mention of it and Westminster would dream up some motion to do down and damage Scotland and then make out that it was all Scotlands own fault for having representatives who for self interest do not attend and there you have it, Englands control honed over decades , the only way out is another election win for SNP and other Scottish independence supporting parties followed by a declaration that we are having a referendum on Scottish independence the date should be announced along with an announcement that the Scottish government rejects the position held by Westminster and the supreme court in England that the parliament in England is a higher authority than the people of Scotland in determining such a matter.
Yes, Terry, I quite agree with you: a de facto referendum.
DeleteI'd make the manifesto promise that a vote for the SNP (and the other parties who join the alliance) is a vote for Scottish Independence, without any further steps. The SNP has already won plenty of Westminster election mandates for a referendum, all of which have been ignored. The mandate we should run on is a mandate for independence itself.
Now, if we win our mandate: if 50%+ of Scots vote for our independence manifesto in a general election, then the UK Government is forced to take an awkward choice:
1. Accept the settled will of the people of Scotland and negotiate with our representatives for the immediate establishment of an independent Scotland. Much too grown up for Westminster, of course!
2. Bargain with us and try to talk us down to a second, binding Indyref. Note: we only have leverage to do this if we have the mandate for independence. The mandates we've collected in the elections since 2014 for indyref2 have proved ineffective. They're only going to make a deal with us if they're already beat.
3. Try to just ignore us like before. The trouble being that it's too late once the electoral event to declare Scottish independence has already happened. This is the power of a de facto referendum: as soon as 50%+ of Scots have voted for independence, it has become an international dispute allowing Europe and all our friends and neighbours to get involved. They will twist the UK's arm to settle this one way or another, most likely by the negotiated referendum path above. The world becomes our leverage.
There is an argument to be made for a referendum being preferable than an election manifesto for declaring independence. I'd certainly support a negotiated indyref2. The way to make it happen, though, is not to beg London for permission but to give the Scottish people the democratic opportunity to demand it. Everything changes once they do.
Anon at 8.47am - so if Scotland's voice is heard as you say - what have the SNP MP's achieved in terms of Scottish independence or indeed anything at all in having their voice heard?
DeleteI expect James will delete you, 9:47, but I'd like to tackle your objection head on.
Delete> For a start you wouldn’t get 50%, but let’s say you get just over 50%, what about the near 50% who didn’t vote for it? Do you think we’d accept it? Never mind Westminster.
Would you have accepted a Yes victory in 2014?
You're free to stomp your feet about it. Losing constitutional votes is hard: many of us have been through it twice as Yes Remainers. But democracy is the will of the majority. Losers don't get a veto power in a democratic vote. That's just dictatorship.
If Scots feel strongly for independence, they will vote for it. Let's have them all make their say, shall we?
> You’re living in cloud cookoo land. There won’t even be such a thing as a “de facto” referendum, it’s just propaganda nonsense.
There's nothing that Scots Tories like yourself can do to prevent the people from expressing their support—if they have it—for Scottish independence. Are you going to abandon democracy? Will you outlaw nationalist parties? As if.
The only cuckoo is the chime that's counting down the union on your clock.
If we want it, and we have the opportunity to express ourselves in the clearest democratic way, we will get it.
Britnat Anon at 9.47am proving once again that we live in a colony where you only get a democratic vote when the colonials want you to and even then if the result doesn't go their way then they will not accept it. Scotland is a colony and the Britnats prove it every day.
DeleteLike the Bruce learned from the spider, if at first you don't succeed…
DeleteBesides, 10 years is a good round number. It's high time to try again.
If you're against us: vote against us. Can't get any fairer than that. It's called democracy. Everyone has their chance to have their say.
Britnat anon at 10.13am - " you ain't getting another one anytime soon" - many thanks again for continuing to prove Scotland is a colony
DeleteThe SNP are soon to get humped at the GE, lose maybe half their seats or worse and the nationalist share of the vote will probably be below 40%.
DeleteYet there’ll still be people on here prattling on about independence.
You couldn’t make it up!
@10:39
DeleteIf the SNP was actually going for a de facto, they wouldn't get humped. Independence is a hell of a lot more popular than the IndyLite SNP right now.
Anonymous at 11:04, you make a good point.
DeleteAnon at 11.33am - so where is this legal route to independence documented then. Indeed where is it documented what is and isn't a legal route to independence. Or are you the Britnat anon who keeps proving Scotland is a colony by denying there is ANY route to independence. Of course that is Britnat wishful thinking - just think of all the ex colonies around the world who are now independent. Beats me why Britnats want to remain in a colony eating humble pie every day of their life. A democratic vote for independence in a legal election will always assist a country in obtaining independence. Doing nothing is what Britnats want and so far Sturgeon's gang are doing nothing.
DeleteA de facto referendum in every election is what should happen.
Britnat anon at 12.23pm - I live in Scotland the Colony. Where do you live?
Delete@11:33
DeleteI think the SNP are too feart to run on a de facto referendum manifesto because they have become afraid of independence. They’re hooked on the London lifestyle, and the (far more important) Holyrood bunch are by and large devolutionists now too. Even you could vote for them. They hate it when they’re called “nationalists”, like you.
I won’t be voting for them until they turn around and get back to independence. Many Indy-supporting Scots will be joining me in this election, going by the polls. What’s the point of a party of independence that’s scared of independence? They need a jolt of reality. They’re a laughing stock down there. It’s time to end it.
Another growing litany of reasons many of us don’t support the SNP is their criminality in office. They’ve grown as corrupt as they have complacent these last 10 years. They really need a clear out.
DeleteA handy summary from Wings:
There are at the time of writing at least four serious criminal investigations in progress relating to the SNP, all of which would be likely to lead to imprisonment for anyone convicted:
Operation Branchform, the long-running inquiry into the party’s finances;
Operation Newbiggin, concerning the illegal leak of confidential information from the Permanent Secretary’s report into the false accusations to the Scottish press (specifically the Daily Record);
a separate investigation into perjury by witnesses at Salmond’s trial (which hasn’t got a police operation name as it’s being conducted by the Crown Office directly rather than the police);
and a fourth investigation about which Wings is unable to report at this stage for legal reasons.
Britnat anon at 12.39 - "Scotland, part of the UK" - so you live in a region of the UK. A bit like a Yorkshire man. So you are not Scottish are you - Scottish is a national identity not a regional identity - sorry but you cannae have your cake and eat it. You are a Britnat - defined by your own words.
DeleteIfs, what absolute nonsense you spout.
DeleteTake a look at your passport, the only legal document you have that proves you are British
DeleteNo matter where you're born in England owned Britain your legal nationality has been imposed upon you by England
Scotland has a nationality in name only, the same as Wales
I read this morning somewhere else that only the former soviet union employed those tactics to subjugate a people
Britnat anon at 1.56pm - you ain't very good at arguing your case are you. Just saying nonsense all the time identifies you as someone of limited abilities. I find that is common with a lot of Britnats who have very closed minds and don't think anything through and therefore when challenged resort to saying things like " nonsense". Scotland is a nation treated like a colony by England and people like you do not deserve to be considered as Scottish as you facilitate this situation. You are a Britnat - full stop.
DeleteThe majority of people in Scotland see themselves as British as well as Scottish.
DeleteIfs, you are in a minority and will never ever get your independence.
DeleteIt ain’t happening, the main reason being, of course, a majority want to remain in the union.
Like other Nats, you live in denial. Plus the idea that independence can, somehow, be achieved through this ridiculous “de facto” thing just cracks me up. You are completely deluded if you think there’s even a slight chance of independence being achieved through this crackpot idea. It can only be done through an actual referendum, and fine you know it. You had your referendum in 2014, and the country gave a resounding NO. Get over it and move on.
Britnat anon - " remain in the union" you are confused Britnat anon - is the UK a union or part of a unitary state called the UK as you said in your previous post. If its a union based on a treaty then Scotland has every right to end the union if it wants to. Britnats are very confused people. Must be all the lies they assimilate. Britnat anon says " it ain't happening" - Britnat anon thinks he is some sort of Britnat version of Nostradamus.
DeleteTen years on - time for another referendum - time for a de facto referendum at every UKGE and Holyrood election. It ain't Britnats like this diddy that is stopping it - it is the SNP.
Britnat anon at 2.43pm - a classic Britnat response - nothing from Nostradamus. Oh wait Britnat Nostradamus is forecasting the result of a future referendum in a post below. Poor confused Britnat Nostradamus.
Delete>The majority of people in Scotland see themselves as British as well as Scottish.
ReplyDeleteNaw they dinnae:
62.4% of Scotland's population said they were ‘Scottish only’.
3.3 million people had Scottish identity only. This was most common in 10 to 14 year olds, at 71.5%.
https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/census-results/at-a-glance/national-identity/
Let’s settle it with a vote, eh? We’re up for it!
Britnat anon at 2.52pm - ' Scottish only ' - 10 to 14 year olds at 71.5% and this would be from the 2011 census. So Britnat Nostradamus what does this tell you about the future. Britnats like you are dying out - night night.
DeleteThis is what I’m on about: the fundamentals for Indy are all there. People have identified as Scots for years, and since 2014 the UK has been a nightmare compared to the safe and stable, hugs and kisses Brown and Cameron promised us. The fact we’re still here, even after all of this, is what baffles the neighbours. What’s keeping us?
DeleteWe’re just stuck in a supposed trap of our own false “nationalists” creation. A cushy job creation scheme for cynical grifters who have taken us for a ride.
Scotland is ready. But is the SNP?
It's not the politicians that are at fault, it's the people, independence can't be won by asking for it
DeleteIf a thief stole your money would he give it back if you just asked for it?
If you can't take back what's yours then you don't deserve to have it
I take it you’re 100% with Russia on “the Ukraine” then.
DeleteThat comment makes no sense whatsoever
DeleteThose in Scotland who identify as British are either English, racist, or sectarian bigots, and no country wants the last two categories of people except extremist regimes
ReplyDeleteActually, some of them are just old. Edinburgh has more than its fair share. Their identity is more BBC than British though. They somehow still remember to cheer on Scotland when we’re beating England!
DeleteOne of the most pathetic things I have ever heard from the Britnat politicians is them complaining about people pulling them up about facilitating the massacre of Palestinian children each day. They feel threatened they say - how about going to bed each day and not knowing if an Israel bomb is going to land on your head. How about having to go out to try and find food not knowing if an Israeli sniper is going to shoot you in the head.
ReplyDeleteCraig Murray put it very well:- " The British Political class. They support , enable and arm a genocide, then claim they are threatened by those who protest against them. While children are blown apart in their thousands with their collusion."
Vote Labour or Tory you are complicit in this genocide.
It’s a move they’ve taken from the disgusting state of politics in the USA. You see Trump do it all the time. Whatever thing you’re trying to hide: throw it at the other side. The more absurd the lie the better. Because the Big Lie is the easiest one to swallow down.
Deletehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie
Sunak spending £30 million beefing up security for MPs. Bet its zero £ for SNP/Alba/Plaid Cymru MPs.
DeleteI bet that wee bastard Sunak will pissof to live in the USA after he is kicked out of office. His money will buy a lot of security in the USA.
DeleteAnon at 4.41. This britnat colonial master illustrates the point. Whatever the SNP shortcomings we still need to vote for them in the coming UK GE and probably any FPTP election for now.
ReplyDeleteThey need us, now? That must be so galling for them!
DeleteCould people *please* not hit the direct "reply" button when replying to obvious trolls, because it risks your comment being automatically deleted if I delete the troll comment. Probably 60% of this thread will disappear if I delete what ought to be deleted, but I'll have a think about what to do.
ReplyDeleteSorry James replied to the Britnat before reading this. Obviously it's your site and your decision who to delete. Personally, I think it useful for people reading your blog to see the blank mind of a standard Britnat. If it is administratively easier to delete any of my posts when deleting a troll then fire away.
DeleteBlood on your hands Britnat anon.
ReplyDeleteIfs, you’re beyond ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteBuy plenty handwash Britnat anon. 100,000 dead or injured and still increasing. The UK aids and abetts this. You support the UK - blood on your hands.
DeleteIfs, it’s nothing short of pathetic the way the SNP and nationalists in general are trying to score political points out of this tragedy, just as Sturgeon did during Covid.
DeleteThere seems no limits to the depths Nats will plumb. Disgraceful.
Oh well Britnat anon looks like James is slowly deleting your posts. Pity, it shows the paucity of your Britnat argument. Byeeeee.
DeleteTerence Callachan Dundee ,
ReplyDelete(1)
note how at 9.47am anonymous unionist says of a de facto referendum ......." but let’s say you get just over 50%, what about the near 50% who didn’t vote for it? Do you think we’d accept it"
....do you see how they will not accept our majority as valid but instead want their minority to be valid and would expext Westminster to enforce such a minority .......
(2)
.also note how at 10.13am anonymous unionist says
" Get support consistently well above 50% then ok start talking about a referendum but until such time give this pathetic nonsense a rest. You had your referendum in 2014 and lost. You ain’t getting another one anytime soon, that’s for sure, so put a sock in it for pity’s sake.".......
.do you see how again we are told that a majority is not enough we must have a consistent majority WELL ABOVE 50% and we must have this consistent majority even though these unionists keep saying no you cant have a vote on independence
I look forward to speaking to them once we have voted and voted as a majority in favour of independence and for the less sharp minds that dont understand the word majority that means anything no matter how small a margin above 50%
I give up im tired of fighting a losing battle , im Scottish and British but we are an ever decreasing number who want Scotland to remain in the UK all the young ones want independence and will get it , i dont want this feeling of being the miserable unionist fighting against the tide of progress and freedom the independance supporters claim they want.Lets face it the union is old and tired , its past its sell by date , Westminster is miserable full of miserably selfish people who cannot even relate to Scotland.I dont want Scotland to endup like Northern Ireland so im finished with trying to defend the indefensible , what led me to this dried up water hole ? the Labour Party , theyre no different to the Conservative party now.
ReplyDeleteGood to see a unionist coming to their senses, I think you’re right that a lot of people are coming to the same conclusion.
DeleteI have no doubt whatsoever if the SNP declared the GE a de facto referendum we’ll be celebrating our independence on the Friday morning following the election, or at the very least commencing negotiations with the UK government on the imminent break up of the union.
Anonymous at 8:44, I agree with you in part. I, like you, have little doubt there’s a majority in favour of independence, however I’m not convinced by the de facto strategy. On paper you’d say it was a no brainer however I suspect the SNP have a legitimate reason for not going with it.
DeleteAnon at 9.43pm - they do have a reason but it ain't legitimate. The reason is they don't want independence.
DeleteIndependence for Scotland, I understand people are a bit disgruntled with the SNP, and I agree they certainly have their faults, but to claim they don’t want independence is simply not true. I suspect you know this but are just exaggerating a bit.
DeleteAnon at 10.35am - no I am not exaggerating at all. Sturgeon's gang could have called a de facto Holyrood referendum at any time. Instead they lied about Indyref2 to get votes and money, money. A scam.
DeleteIndependence for Scotland, I agree with part of what you say but I still think it’s a bit ridiculous to say the SNP don’t want independence. That is really the only reason people vote for them and will continue to do so I don’t doubt. If it wasn’t for independence I don’t see a reason for voting SNP.
DeleteAnon at 1pm are you another Britnat? Why is it ridiculous? Tell me why you think they want independence - please don't say because the SNP say they want independence. Labour say they want social justice - do you believe that as well just because they say it? Actions please not words.
DeleteI still think they want independence, just don’t understand why they’re not declaring the GE a de facto. I thought when Nicola Sturgeon came up with the idea after they lost the court case, they would go with it at the first opportunity. It’s certainly frustrating, I agree.
DeleteAnon at 6.38pm - Sturgeon never came up with the idea. Plenty of people had been pushing for a de facto long before that including myself.
DeleteNews to me, never heard it mentioned before Sturgeon.
DeleteAnon at 10pm - widen your sources of info is my suggestion. I doubt the Daily Mail would promote it.
DeleteUnlikely to be an effective strategy.
ReplyDeleteThe SNP could run on that very slogan!
DeleteBlowhard Blackford SNP MP and phoney independence supporter refuses to sign petition calling for Hoyle to resign - he disnae want to upset his good pal Hoyle. Probably wants to be on good terms with him when they are both in the House of Lords laughing at how they fooled independence supporters. I mean Hoyle stuck two fingers up to the SNP not once but twice but Blackford disnae care. Blackford will soon say I will not be taken out of the The House of Lords against my will so you can stuff your Scottish independence.
ReplyDeleteToo negative. Blackford has achieved a lot as an MP. Westminster Leader of SNP, when he asked multiple questions at PMQs, membership of Privy Council, and membership of the statutory Intelligence and Security Committee as well as other committees. None of this is automatic but took a lot of heavy lifting.
DeleteHeavy lifting? Come on, too body normative, “concerned” anon.
DeleteAnon at 11.26pm - aye he has done a lot for the UK.
DeleteWhat do the WGD numpties have to say about Blackford supporting the Speaker over his own party - nothing. The old head in the sand stuff which they have used on many many occasions.
DeleteI don't know if the "I spy strangers' procedure still applies but if it does then I would gave used it as soon as PMQs started on Wednesday,
ReplyDeleteIDF soldiers set up aid trap to massacre Gazans. Over 100 shot dead and around 700 shot and injured. Murder by a murderous state army. Like shooting fish in a barrel. There needs to be a lot of these soldiers and their commanders put on trial.
ReplyDeleteAnd the same with the ridiculous 'this place' and 'that place' nonsense. Call them the HoC and HoL. Nothing will put their noses out of joint than ignoring their stupid, wee traditions.
ReplyDeleteAnd the same with the ridiculous 'this place' and 'that place' nonsense. Call them the HoC and HoL. Nothing will put their noses out of joint more than ignoring their stupid, wee traditions
ReplyDelete