Tuesday, October 11, 2022

Nicola Sturgeon's "we will, of course, reflect" comment should set alarm bells ringing for the independence movement - is this 2017 all over again?

I'm probably quite unusual within the independence movement in that I'm one of the dwindling group of people who neither "trust in Nicola" and take it as read that her every word is gospel, nor assume that she must be lying simply because her lips are moving.  Even since joining the Alba Party, I've continued to try to take every fresh development on its merits and reach an honest conclusion on how much trust can be placed in what the SNP leadership are promising.  I received brickbats from a few people in my own party for saying after Ms Sturgeon's big announcement in June that her plebiscite election pledge was specific enough that it would be hard for her to renege upon it - and that if it did go ahead, it would be a golden opportunity for the Yes movement that we would need to seize, not sabotage.

But by the same token, I need to be equally honest in my assessment of what has been said and done since June, and that assessment is: there is some cause for concern.  To a limited extent that's because of Mhairi Hunter's notorious tweet - although of course she's a relatively minor figure who doesn't speak on behalf of the Scottish Government, she's nevertheless known to be close to Nicola Sturgeon and thus in tune with the leadership's thinking.  To a much greater extent my concern is caused by Angus Robertson, who as External Affairs Secretary most certainly is empowered to speak on behalf of the Scottish Government, and whose comments to France 24 about how a referendum will come "sooner or later", whenever the UK Government agrees to it, were literally incompatible with the SNP's stated plan that a referendum will be held on 19th October 2023 or not at all.

And now we have Nicola Sturgeon's speech yesterday.  I didn't watch it live, but I swiftly heard from some quarters that she had walked back all of her solemn promises to the Yes movement, and from other quarters that she'd doubled down on her determination to hold an independence vote in the very near future.  So, as ever, I've sought out her words to make up my own mind.

"If the Court decides in the way we hope it does, on 19 October next year, there will be an independence referendum. And if the court doesn’t decide that way? First, and obviously, we will respect that judgment. We believe in the rule of law. And as a party – and a movement – we will, of course, reflect. But fundamentally, it will leave us with a very simple choice. Put our case for independence to the people in an election… Or give up on Scottish democracy. Conference, I don’t know about you – actually I suspect I do... But I will never – ever – give up on Scottish democracy. For now, the question of process – the ‘how’ of securing independence – is in the hands of judges. It is for us to crack on with answering the question ‘why’."

One thing that's causing concern for some people is her undertaking to "respect" the Supreme Court's verdict.  I don't have a major problem with that, because it's in the nature of constitutional nationalism to work within the framework of the rule of law.  There is no point in taking a case to the Supreme Court, or indeed in defending a case at the Supreme Court, if you're not going to abide by the outcome, and of course there would be no higher court to appeal to.  To quote Al Gore's famous words for the second time in a few days: "And while I strongly disagree with the Supreme Court's ruling, I accept it, and I accept its finality."  I understand the argument that domestic UK law may find itself in conflict with international law on the question of self-determination, but the correct moment to consider "going over the head" of domestic UK law would be after we have a clear mandate for independence, ie. after a positive outcome in a plebiscite election.

No, what concerns me is not the "respect" comment but the "reflect" comment.  She says the SNP and the wider indy movement would need to "of course, reflect" after a Supreme Court setback.  Why?  And why "of course"?  She's already set out in crystal-clear fashion what course of action will be followed if the Supreme Court rules against her - she will use the next general election as a de facto independence referendum.  So what on earth would be the purpose of a period of reflection other than to open up the possibility of backtracking on the solemn promise she has already made?

Naturally the tone of the remainder of her remarks are designed to reassure and to give the impression that the outcome of any reflection would be a foregone conclusion - there would be a straight choice between "putting our case for independence to the people in an election" and "giving up on Scottish democracy", and she will "never - ever - give up on Scottish democracy".  But nevertheless she's leaving herself some wiggle room by using less specific language than she used in June.  I'd just remind people that before she completely backtracked on her promise of a referendum in 2017, she prepared the ground for the U-turn with occasional mutterings about how she was going to have to "reflect".  It's sometimes forgotten that she started doing that well before the SNP lost more seats than expected in the 2017 general election - I clearly recall her using the "R" word in a TV debate during the election campaign, which was a pretty strong signal that a decision had already been taken privately to kick the referendum into the long grass, even though she wasn't being upfront about that with SNP members.

That said, there's also a potential positive interpretation here.  A number of us have been calling for the plan of a Westminster plebiscite election in 2024 to be replaced with a snap Holyrood plebiscite election in 2023.  That way the campaign wouldn't be overshadowed by Labour's bid for power at Westminster, and both 16-17 year olds and EU citizens would have the right to vote.  If the purpose of a period of reflection is to give the Scottish Government the scope to adjust its plans in that direction, it would be an extremely constructive development.  But the red line for the movement must be: a referendum or plebiscite election of some sort by 2024 at the latest.


The vote to elect members of the National Executive Committee will take place during Alba's annual conference, to be held in Stirling on 15th-16th October.  If you're an Alba member, I believe it's still possible to purchase a conference pass HERE, and if you're not yet an Alba member, you can join the party HERE.

32 comments:

  1. About as good a summation as possible. But Sturgeon's words and actions must be still be examined very closely.

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  2. If the supreme court goes against us then it wud be a court in England and probably unionist in persuasion saying no. I cud not respect that Law or setup, because I feel it wud be corrupt or biased
    We then need to move on to the international community to give their perspective on where Scotland stands legally

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  3. What I witness, was a vindictive speech attacking everyone who’s spoken out against her, proclaiming her dying devotion for thee late English Queen and with positive glee knowing that she’s going to remain as leader of the New SNP and that tomorrow court case will be lost and there is nothing anyone can do, including the Alba party.
    This is the fait Scotland and its people look forward to. The rest of the speech was the same as previous year, EU citizens being replaced by Ukrainians and Boris replaced by Liz Truss. Before the New SNP conference had even started she was offering to work in coalition with the Labour party, so much for a genuine plebiscite.

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  4. If Sovereignty lies with the Scottish people, why do we need to involve a panel of judges in another country in our business? According to the Claim of Right we, the people, can sack the govt. So why are we not doing that?

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  5. " Is this 2017 all over again."

    It could just as easily be said is this Jan 2020 all over again. This surrender speech by Sturgeon was when I finally became convinced she would never deliver independence. Remember this is where she said she would not be carrying out an illegal wildcat referendum and then put forward NOTHING as the way forward.

    James, it is good that you form your opinions on the evidence. So do I. The evidence shows that she has had no problem in the past in rolling back on her promises not just once but on multiple occasions and the numpties just accept it. So my conclusion, sadly, is that the rollback on the de facto referendum has already started and the numpties will just accept it. These are the people who are preventing Scottish independence.

    The evidence regarding Sturgeon's (and the people she surrounds herself with) character and personal integrity also tells me she is someone who cannot be trusted in any way. People think because she takes selfies with infants etc she is a "nice" person. She ain't.

    It is not impossible that if the UK Supreme Court say it is illegal then Truss could pass a law on the back of that stating that it is illegal for any party to use an election as a de facto referendum. Would Sturgeon go against any of this - no chance. As Nicholson, MP (ex BBC) said yesterday on the BBC Salmond frightened the horses in England but Sturgeon doesn't.

    It is also possible that if the Supreme Court state it is legal for the Scottish government to hold a referendum Truss just passes a law making it illegal.

    In summary, Sturgeon is just a time waster re independence.

    PS James an excellent series of articles over the recent period. So superior to the big dug who just tells his doggers how bad the Tories are then how bad Labour is and now and again how bad the LibDems are.

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  6. I do not hang on every word that Nicola Sturgeon says or any politician for that matter ,in fact let’s face it everyone says things that are sometimes construed by different people in different ways , it happens you know it yourself you can say something and people will have received and understood your comment in different ways.
    Nicola Sturgeon cannot before the Supreme Court decision , say that she will ignore their decision , of course she can’t, she is a politician an employee of government she has to accept a Court decision and if there is a right of appeal she can appeal it otherwise she can go ahead with plan B making a general election or Scottish election a Scottish independence election .
    We know that a Scottish election is preferable because 16/17 year olds could vote whereas they cannot if its a general election.

    I think the Supreme Court cannot reach a decision saying that the Scottish government cannot have a Scottish independence referendum i cannot see what grounds there would be for such a decision when there is clear evidence that the number of people wanting one has increased since the one in 2014.
    It’s all very interesting
    If anyone can come up with a reason why a Scottish independence referendum cannot be carried out by the Scottish government a reason that would have to “ reasonable” in the eyes of the law please let me know all law professes to be reasonable , if there was an existing law that prevents the Scottish government holding such a referendum I am certain that we would have heard of it by now so I do not think current law prevents it.
    Therefore the Supreme Court in my opinion will have to come up with some other “ reasonable “ decision if they are to go against us.
    Let’s wait and see.
    NS is saying exactly that - let’s wait and see

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    1. Well, a) she's not saying that, b) if she was saying that, it would still be a change of position from June, and c) she is not an "employee of government", she's the head of government.

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    2. Anonymous - do you remember Nicola Sturgeon ever saying vote SNP for us to then ask the UK Supreme Court to tell us if we can have a referendum or not. Of course not she said vote SNP for a referendum. People posting on SGP actually thought we would be having a referendum last year.
      Do you remember Sturgeon saying vote SNP and we may use a UK GE as a de facto referendum as she said in June this year. No because she didn't. Now Sturgeon and her gang seem to be having difficulty saying "a de facto referendum at a UK GE."

      It's not nit picking about words. It's Sturgeon and her gang being untrustworthy/deceitful. I have ZERO trust in them.

      I have no idea where you get the idea that the UK Supreme Court have to do what you think. They do not. Sorry to have to break that piece of info to you.

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  7. PS Al Gore was a loser.

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    1. But only by one vote in a conservative-majority Supreme Court. We now have one of those ourselves.

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  8. I never bought a word of her indy talk (just compare her endless efforts to save the EU to her indy efforts) - yet it's not her fault opinion is divided

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    1. Again, it makes no sense to talk in terms of "fault" and "blame" about the fact that independence support is at roughly 50%. That is an excellent starting point for any campaign. 60% is neither attainable nor necessary.

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    2. True but only with a Smart Alex type at the helm - we don't have one

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    3. On Scotland Tonight last night even Stephen Noon ex SNP adviser was at it as well saying stuff like independence would be difficult in a country split 50/50 and it would be better to have independence being the settled will. He also said there is a desire in Scotland for more independence. MORE? is the SNP full of devolutionalists? Power devolved is power retained. The shredding of the Sewell convention made that crystal clear.

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  9. If NS intends to use the next general election as a vote on independence then why is she answering questions about giving support for a Labour government instead of a Tory government in the next Westminster parliament? Is it because she thinks we will lose the independence vote or because she doesn’t intend following through with the plan to turn the next general election into a vote on independence at all? Either way, pretty dodgy answer.

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    1. Neither , she is playing Labour against Conservative and Conservative against Labour

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  10. Funny how the Britnat media never point out that the UK Supreme Court is only 13 years old.

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  11. The big dug himself says that if there is no referendum then ".....the question of independence would be put to the people of Scotland in an election....." No ifs no buts from the big dug. So he does not share your worries James. I'll have to reflect on that.
    Naw only joking - Kavanagh is now a Sturgeon propagandist who once said there is no chance of an election being used to pose the independence question. People are entitled to change their mind but Kavanagh now just parrots what Sturgeon says.

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    1. Scottish independence will be resisted , of course it will , we know why but a referendum or election will happen you can resist it but you cannot stop it

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    2. Kavanagh is now a Sturgeon propagandist who once said there is no chance of an election being used to pose the independence question.

      Is this true, though? He was endorsing a plebiscite election in 2020, well before Sturgeon ever got there.

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    3. When I was still on good terms with Paul, he was actually quite impatient with the SNP's over-caution on independence strategy. (And I'm not saying anything that isn't public knowledge - his previous views are in the public domain if you look.) It's not entirely clear why he's gone from that to breathlessly taking every dot and comma of the SNP's public statements at face value. If I was going to hazard a guess, I'd say he now has a tribal identification with the current SNP leadership that he didn't previously have.

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    4. Keaton, are you desperately going through my posts looking for something that you can disprove. Well you need to try harder is my response if that is the case. Saying in 2020 he thinks it is a good idea is not the same as what I posted which is " there is no chance of an election being used".
      So what I posted is true as he didn't think Sturgeon would go down this route is my answer and perhaps you need to improve your comprehension of what is posted or I may think you are going down the road well travelled by Irish Skier on SGP of misrepresenting what I post.

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    5. Aye, the commentariat on that place are curiously protective of the cult leader. Nae deviation fae the thoughts of the Great helmsperson are tae be tolerated. This is an indication of weakness not strength.
      The sites that welcome open debate will flourish. I’m minded of the Maoist cult in London that restricted its membership to nine folk to avoid impure influences. WGD will wither in proportion to the (mysteriously secretive) membership of NuSNP. Not the business model Paul thinks it is.

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    6. Keaton, are you desperately going through my posts looking for something that you can disprove. Well you need to try harder is my response if that is the case. Saying in 2020 he thinks it is a good idea is not the same as what I posted which is " there is no chance of an election being used".
      So what I posted is true as he didn't think Sturgeon would go down this route is my answer and perhaps you need to improve your comprehension of what is posted or I may think you are going down the road well travelled by Irish Skier on SGP of misrepresenting what I post.


      Except in the link I posted he doesn't just say that he thinks it's a good idea, he specifically says that he believes the Scottish Government may come round to supporting it. It's a bit rich to accuse others of misrepresentation while engaging in it.

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    7. Keaton, I note you do not quote where he says Sturgeon will go for a plebiscite election because he does not say that. Apart from that article you refer to he has previously said a plebiscite election will not happen. That was in the days when he was assuring his readers that a referendum would definitely happen - in my original post I said " ONCE said" I did not specify a particular month/ year and not summer 2020. I said he was entitled to change his mind.
      Also I said I MAY start thinking you are misrepresenting my posts - you are now.

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  12. All that guff about Sturgeon respecting the law is nonsense. She asked the people of Scotland to give her a mandate for something she was unsure was legal and worked very hard against Keatings who tried to establish the legality or not.

    If the Court pass the decision back to Sturgeons appointed Lord Advocate and she says it is illegal then in that scenario we would have the embarrassing situation that Sturgeon asked for a mandate for something her own Lord Advocate states is illegal and should not proceed. As the Lord Advocate is part of Sturgeons government the Britnats would be able to say it is Sturgeon's own government who is stopping the referendum. Farcical. Was there not a KC who supported independence who could have been appointed Lord Advocate instead of Bain. Well Joanna Cherry, MP for one.

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    1. No not really , remember government and law are separate or meant to be but in this case too many eyes on it for it not to be so if the Supreme Court decide that the Scottish government cannot hold a Scottish independence referendum it just mens that the British state has made a rule about how it wants matters relating to referendums in Britain.
      Such a decision would undoubtedly be controversial not just in Scotland or U.K. but worldwide .
      The U.K. ignores international law on occasions but that does not come without penalty
      Persevere and turn an election into an independence vote
      The people always succeed , always , eventually
      One generation after the next gets stronger

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    2. Anonymous, yes really. Sturgeon appointed Bain, the Lord Advocate and the Lord Advocate is part of the Scottish Government.
      My post does not refer to the scenario that the Court says no. It is the scenario they decide to say that Bain can make the decision. It may be unlikely but not impossible.

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  13. Interesting albeit differing points of view here , i live in hope , I put my trust in NS and SNP and yes there are questionable decisions that they have made but it’s politics and in my lifetime I have seen so many questionable decisions turn out worse than expected and so many turn out better than expected , wait and see is about all we can do it’s too late too near the proposed indyref2 date to make sweeping changes .
    If they announce that there will not be an indyref2 in 2023 for whatever reason no excuses will be accepted the Independence 50% or 52% or whatever % it truly is , will rebel and form a new path to success , this journey has been started it can’t be stopped until Independence reached

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    1. Anonymous, the kindest thing I can say about you putting your trust in Sturgeon is you are misguided. Any ideas on how Sturgeon continuing to produce the GERS report year after year that is a propaganda gift to the unionists will " turn out better".

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  14. Only managed to catch bits of the Supreme Court hearing but it wouldn't surprise me if the UK Advocate used the following:

    1. The FM of Scotland said that the ONLY route to independence was via a sec 30.
    2. Any of the arguments put forward by Wolfeboy the previous Lord Advocate when arguing against Keatings.

    Nothing like using your opponents own words against them.

    Sturgeon is a time waster.

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  15. Sadly, we will not take independence until at least 10 years after Sturgeon is replaced. If she is replaced by Angus Robertson, it will be at least 10 years after he is replaced. I no longer expect to see a free Scotland in my lifetime.
    If, however, Sturgeon is offered devo max, she’ll grab it with both hands. More power for her without risking losing her power after independence.

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