Friday, May 8, 2020

Panelbase poll suggests more than one-third of Labour voters are pro-independence - which leaves Keir Starmer with a big problem

Panelbase have released the datasets for a couple of questions from the Wings poll, and a few interesting points leap out. First of all, respondents who didn't vote in the 2014 referendum are split virtually down the middle on independence. That may not seem particularly surprising or significant, but if you cast your mind back, there have been quite a few polls in recent years that showed Yes above the 45% recorded in September 2014, but in which there was no net swing to Yes among people who actually voted in that referendum - the increase was totally driven by a Yes majority among 2014 non-voters, which raised the possibility that the new Yes recruits might be relatively flaky or might not even turn out to vote next time. There are no such worries in this poll - the 50/50 split in the headline result can be explained mostly by the fact that there is a greater proportion of 2014 No voters who have switched to Yes (18%) than of 2014 Yes voters who have switched to No (12%).

It's always slightly taboo to point something like this out, but among people who were actually born in Scotland there is a clear 53% to 47% majority in favour of independence. Of course every vote is equal and it doesn't matter where people have come from as long as they have made Scotland their home. But I do think it's worthy of some note that people who have been here all or most of their lives appear to want to become an independent country, albeit by a narrow margin. It's probably fair to say that a substantial proportion of residents from south of the border have only been here for a short time and are opposed to independence in quite a reflexive way - they may not even take the idea particularly seriously. But strangely enough, even if the poll had been confined to people who were born in the UK, there would have been a slim Yes majority - because respondents from beyond these shores break for No by 57% to 43%.

Once again, a significant minority (36%) of the rump Labour vote from last year's general election say they would vote Yes. That leaves Keir Starmer with a big problem. By appointing the militant British nationalist Ian Murray as his Shadow Scottish Secretary, he appears to have calculated that Labour have no further to fall and that they can claw back support from the Tories with a hardline anti-independence stance. But the arithmetic is clear - if Labour alienate the one-third of their remaining voters who support independence, they could actually fall a lot further than the 19% of the vote they recorded in December. And that's before you even consider the fact that Labour lost far more votes to the SNP in 2015 and 2019 than they did to the Tories in 2017. To truly get back in the game, it's pro-independence votes they would need.

88 comments:

  1. In Wales, 30 per cent are born outside the country, overwhelmingly in England. We have a mountain to climb.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In Scotland 17% are born elsewhere, 9% are born in England. The next largest group is from Non EU countries at 4% with the remainder being Welsh, Irish and other EU.

      These are 2011 census figures and a bit out of date now.

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    2. You are fecked in other words.

      Delete
  2. OK. So, when 'normal' campaigning returns which voters should YES groups be pitching their efforts at ?

    Is there more to be made among Labour voters or have we got as far as we can ?

    Non voters from 2014 ?

    Confess to being a little surprised by the 'origin beyond UK' percentages.

    I guess a potential large, future factor might be voters perception of effectiveness of response to Covid between uk and Scottish governments. There's not much doubt that at present Nicola cuts a more impressive figure than a bumbling clown who's run out of jokes but individual image won't be enough on that one.

    I'm finding it harder to motivate myself for the hard slog of election campaigns that are frequent but don't appear to take us anywhere beyond their own outcomes.

    On the whole though - good news.

    Stay safe everyone.

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  3. Today I will remember my grandparents and all the other Scots that fought the Nazis so we could have a Section 30 if we voted for one.

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    Replies
    1. They certainly didn't fight for Nazis like Alistar "Union" Jack to tell us we are a colony of England and our votes count for nothing.

      Put that mention of England in the post to try and keep Terence Callachan happy - unlikely to succeed though.

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  4. I think your remark about Keir Starmer's calculation is very interesting.
    One of the 'problems' (for them), which he and others south of the border haven't recognised, is that the 45% never went away and has slowly and steadily increased since 2014.
    With so-called Scottish Labour relentlessly parroting the Unionist line because they hate the SNP with a passion, the big Labour boys (not) south of the border haven't any real idea what has been happening up here - and, like the infamous Johnson, just assumed that we'd fall into line and it was all just a flash in the pan, a cult, etc.
    Not a clue.

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    1. I think that for Westminster elections (and I really hope we'll never have one of those again) both Labour and Tories have given up on Scotland. With FPTP and SNP being the only pro-independence party they really don't stand a chance as long as support for independence holds on more than 40 per cent. It's just what FPTP does. They're probably counting on an MP here and there, but nothing more than that. Scottish and English politics have diverged so much in the last 10 years that Labour would have to do and say completely opposite things in Scotland to what they'd have to do and say in England to win. And Labour's trying to get middle England vote now with Starmer. And if they want to get middle England vote they can't get Scottish vote. And there are far more middle England voters than Scottish voters - so they'll go for their votes.
      And as Tories have turned into English Nationalist (not national - a big difference) Party, they don't really stand a chance of getting more than 20-25% in Scotland no matter what their other policies are. They'll probably be hemorrhaging votes to Labour now with Starmer as he's seen more unionist and less English nationalist than Tories.
      Which is why I don't understand their (and central Tory office) opposition to independence. We all know we're politically two completely different countries. We all know Labour and Tories will never get more than 20, 25% in Scotland. There's always going to be Scottish question which will make UK unstable as a country. Wouldn't it be in everyone's (including English) interest to separate amicably? They seem to be really petrified of being just England - just another relatively small, but prosperous European country

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    2. Martin, a good analysis as far as it goes. You are missing Trident and all the economic resources that Scotland has. The UK since its inception has transferred revenues from Scotland to England. They need Scotland - it's a simple as that. They would love to be in a position to ditch Scotland but they are not. It's a classic colonial situation.

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    3. England needs the income from Scotland's oil and gas, no other reason.

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  5. Isn't 57% No among people born outside of the UK a bit of a surprise? Presumably most of these are EU citizens.

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  6. To be fair to Starmer, he wasn't exactly spoiled for choice for a Shadow Scottish Secretary. Murray isn't a brilliant option for Labour but he was the only realistic option.

    As Napoleon may have said "Give me lucky generals", Nicola and the SNP generally have certainly been lucky with the opposition they have faced. Ruth Davidson was the only hiccup on the horizon but now with Jackson, Murray, and Baillie back as the main opposition focal points the biggest danger is complacency and Nicola is too cautious to be complacent.

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    1. Emmm...Davidson was utterly useless, hyped by the media into something she most assuredly was not, at any level.

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    2. True but hype they did, very hard to do with Carlaw, Baillie, Murray (who looks permanently annoyed) or Rennie.

      Leonard achieves a remarkable level of anonymity to the point I'm wondering if Leonard is right, yet I'm sure I must have typed his name dozens of times.

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  7. Britnat double standards.

    1. It is not right to commemorate the 700 year anniversary of The Declaration of Arbroath during this National virus crisis said the Britnats in early April.

    2. Today, one month later, the VE commemorations are in full swing just as the UK is seen as having the highest death rate in Europe due to the virus and is criticised world wide for its management of the virus.

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  8. It's great news to see that 18% of No voters have come over to the Yes side. I can never get my head around the fact that 12% of Yes voters have did likewise and gone over to the dark side.

    I understand that much of that might be to do with their views on the EU as even the SNP lost many voters because of their remain stance. It will seem totally rational to them but to me it defies common sense.

    This might be a fertile group for "YES groups (to) be pitching their efforts at" as they were at one time open to voting YES.

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    1. I've probably told this story before, but my one conversation with a Yes-to-No convert was someone who had changed his mind simply because of named person. He had campaigned for Yes and just two years later absolutely loathed the SNP and any notion of Scotland governing itself. When he found out I was still a Yes supporter, and particularly when I tried to make the opposite case about named person, he started screaming abuse. It was quite extraordinary. I doubt if he was typical, but it just goes to show that people will have a variety of weird and wonderful reasons for changing sides.

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    2. I really don't understand the reasoning that some have where a single issue decides whether they will suppport Independence or not.

      Surely Independence is far bigger than that, no one will ever get everything they want from any system.

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    3. The capitalist and landowning class will always get what they want and the Tartan Tories will oblige and take donations from them.

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    4. The capitalist and landowning class are Covidia's beloved overlords.
      It will think of them and smile when they put it to work in the fields this summer.

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  9. People expect too much from Nicola Sturgeon, she can't fix everything no matter how hard she tries and no government in the history of the world ever made everybody happy all at the one time or we'd be tearing down the churches and worshipping them

    People say the SNP isn't perfect and that's a silly way to begin to complain, because nothing is or ever was but in terms of governance the SNP has been the best thing that ever happened in Scotland by a long way

    Scotland has begun to have a sense of itself instead of accepting the forelock tugging colonial attitude most of our country had while at the same time harbouring the deep resentment that comes along with it

    More than half of us now see *We wuz robbed* of ourselves, and now we want ourselves back

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  10. Some calm,sensible observations here. I'm encouraged by that. No one claiming to have all the answers but like minded activists chewing things over to find wee bits of ways forward.

    Just a daft anecdote really but on one doorstep in 2014 two of us spent a (probably pointless) ten minutes or so trying to establish a point of contact with a bloke who gave his reason for voting NO as being, 'Wales was independent for twenty years. It was a disaster and they had to come crawling back'. Gentle questions like when, who, where did you read it got nowhere of course.So, yes James - no shortage weirdness !

    Setting aside Covid for a moment. We all bash our heads on what to do when S30 is just refused. The bit I can't see is why is the frustration with this that definitely exists among activists not exerting more pressure, for a resolution of some sort, on the leadership ?
    The impasse just goes on and on. No one expects an answer 'tomorrow' but an outline of a way forward would be good. Preferably before serious steps to curtail devolution get up too much momentum.

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  11. The trouble with some Independence supporters is they forget when they demand the SNP just get us oor Independence the other half of the argument is saying we don't want it, and there's a confusion between what people think the government is for and what the SNP as a party is for

    When the people of Scotland by majority demand Independence the government will act on it, but until then the SNP party will keep reminding us and asking us to support the proposition so the government can act on it

    It's all numbers at the end of the day and if the folk who don't want Independence for whatever reasons equal or outnumber those of us who do want Independence then we're stuck

    The benefit of the YES to independence argument is that those of us who want it, want it it for the same reason, freedom of choice to decide our own future, the other side are at a disadvantage because they're reasons are several disjointed ones, so effectively those people are even at odds with themselves

    You have the economic argument people, you have the British empire people, you have the sectarianists (they're the worst ones) so you can see the opposition to Independence is not a unified entity, whereas the YES movement is (except for the current I hate Nicola Sturgeon so I don't want Independence) bampots, who are really just against democracy by the people, they want a specific Independence as long as it suits them or they're in the huff because there's a law or a rule or a decision or the way somebody combs their hair, in other words any excuse to deny the will of the majority

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  12. For what its worth, I heard an American commentator looking back at the 2014 referendum in a novel and important way. Her position was to look at the UK as a whole and, yes, from a Westminster perspective. Her issue was that there should be a major concern (and this holds for any state) that 45% of one part of your nation is so disenchanted with what is on offer that they want to leave. And, that they want to leave you even after you have presented them with scenario painted by project fear. That economic disaster on a massive scale (as suggested in project fear) was a more attractive prospect than remaining with the UK. It is an interesting perspective that hasn't been looked at too often, for it suggests that in many respects there is nothing the UK can do to undo this 45%. Fear has not worked. With the figure now around 50% it seems that playing the unionist trumpet doesn't seem to work either. Although she suggested that the break up of the UK was probably inevitable, I worry that there is a ceiling or that migration might make things harder as in Wales. Perhaps we need a new campaign that the 'troops' can unite around and rekindle the embers of our independence fire.

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    1. Myself and a good chunk of the 45% simply do not believe that independence would be an economic disaster. Quite the opposite, I look at the evidence and believe that Scotland is a very rich country indeed. Even take the oil - its gubbed at the moment for obvious reasons. But you have to take the long term view. Oil isn't just energy, its seed material for plastics and chemicals, and so will never cease to be very valuable in the long run. As long as we can average out the bumps like Norway has done with their oil fund, we will be just fine. There's more still under the sea than already pumped, and that is only one of our extensive list of natural resources.

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  13. Nicola Sturgeon is by far the the most able competent leader in the UK. A lot of people then were correct to believe she had a plan ready to bring in to play when Johnston said no to sect 30. Someone of her intelligence and ability must have thought this through. A lot of people were willing to give her time - year after year - and thought the speech at the end of Jan 2020 would reveal her plan. It did not. No plan - just keep asking for a sect 30.

    A lot of people now conclude that the only logical conclusion is that she does not want independence. Someone with her superior skill set would not allow herself to be in this position unless that is what she wanted - namely to continue as Frist Minister of a devolved Scottish parliament in the UK.

    So much for Ian Blackford repeatedly saying Scotland will not be taken out of the EU against its will

    It matters not a jot what lead the SNP have in the polls or what the majority for independence is if the SNP will never actually set the scene for independence.

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    Replies
    1. Ian Blackford is an erse for making such a statement. No matter how much you fascists play the we were dragged out crap you know it was a UK referendum. Blackford and Co are happy to take UK taxpayers money.

      Delete
    2. Covidia will only take taxpayers' money if it isn't made to work for it. This has always been the case.
      Like its fellow snivelling Brexiteers, it fears being sent for mandatory crop harvesting by its Tory overlords.

      Delete
    3. GWC still better to be an erse, as you say, than a rotten stinking Britnat turd like you. Away slide back in to your sewer.

      Delete
  14. Hello unknown, I too have fears around the SNP's apparent inaction on leading us to independence. I still do not understand the rationale of why we need the permission slip of a section 30 - an electoral win should be enough as far as I am concerned. However, I still cannot discount the fact that under the SNP's government and approach to independence our 45% has grown to 50% - and this without the fire of a campaign. Our starting point only a few months before the referendum was circa 30 - 35% and we raised this substantially even with the real fear of the UK's project fear propaganda scenario. I find it difficult to see Nicola as being satisfied with remaining in the UK as a devolved government but I do wish I could see some signs that we are about to disembark from the UK.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. WT
      Sad to say but I think it will be Nicola Sturgeon who will be disembarking soon. It is never a good idea to create heros out of politicians - the vast majority will disappoint.

      The SNP used to have a majority win at an election as a mandate for independence but changed it in recent times to a referendum. Referendums, however are much easier to pockle. There is no need for a sect 30. Salmond was going ahead in 2014 with a referendum because he had a mandate and Cameron came calling and suggested the gold standard (sect 30/ Edinburgh Agreement) that Nicola Sturgeon refers to. Cameron, of course, broke the Edinburgh Agreement with the infamous vow. Some gold standard - it takes place once and is broken by Westminster. The lesson - don't trust the Britnats about anything - always expect the worse from the Britnats - you won't be disappointed.



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  15. Thanks for those thoughts. I'll comb through them again tomorrow. This is the way - wee bits and gradually a picture will form.

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  16. What we need in Scotland is to demand the right to have a Scottish passport and Scottish citizenship.
    Everyone living in Scotland should then be given the right to apply for Scottish citizenship .
    Those born in Scotland should get Scottish citizenship and a Scottish passport automatically
    Those who have one parent who was born in Scotland should also get Scottish citizenship and a Scottish passport automatically

    Scottish citizenship would not only entitle you to a Scottish passport it would also entitle you to a right to vote in a Scottish independence referendum.

    By taking these simple steps we would see all the people who have no intention of living here for any length of time who would as many did after the 2014 referendum return to their own country or go elsewhere for work reject the offer of Scottish citizenship and a Scottish passport.

    Those who were not born here and do not have a parent that was born here should be allowed to apply for Scottish citizenship once they have lived in Scotland for five years.

    Nearly all of the English people living in Scotland would choose not to apply for Scottish citizenship primarily because most of them will return to live in England.

    It’s criminal that so many of the non Scottish people primarily English people who voted NO in 2014 no longer actually live in Scotland , many of them knew they would be leaving but still voted.

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  17. What’s the sense in having a Scottish independence referendum and then letting people vote in it who won’t be here in a year or two as was the case in 2014.

    We should apply the same rules about citizenship , passport , right to vote as England does but we should do it in Scotland’s name after all we are claiming to be a country in our own right .

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  18. Some European countries do their voting online across the world
    But only people with the national passport and citizenship get to vote

    Three quarters of a million or more English people live in Scotland most temporarily and will never take Scottish citizenship or a Scottish passport if offered , it’s wrong that they get to vote in a Scottish independence referendum.

    If you are Scottish and lived in England for a while as I did often would you want to vote in an independence referendum for england ? Not that it would be likely to have any effect given the numbers , the opposite is true in Scotland , English people account for over 20% of the NO vote

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  19. The statistics often quoted for the number of English people living in Scotland is nonsense and out for date but doesn’t stop them quoting it they keep saying half a million but that’s from the census ten years ago.
    Unfortunately the next census will be delayed because of covid19 , it was going to be done online and by post , we know postal data is dodgy already but it’s still used.

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    Replies
    1. I know quite a few English people living here who will vote for independence.

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    2. Jews voting for the German holiday camps.

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    3. Aye GWC, we ken you think English folks are stupid. You brits hate the English more than you hate the Scots. It's why you are against English independence.

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    4. The English have no desire for independence they are not racist like you Jock/Irish fundamentalists.

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    5. You hate English independence supporters, which means you hate the English.

      For you, English must not be English, but British. You hate people who are just plain old English. You hate the English more than you hate the Scots.

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    6. Covidia hates everyone. It's an equal opportunities misanthrope.

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  20. The YES movement too has it's own bigots and racists, sadly. No denying it. An Independent Scotland would want to rid itself of such hatred.

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  21. The folk making a fuss over this GRA stuff and mixing it together with a pinch of Alex Salmond conspiracy are all at the same game, what it comes down to with these people is *We won't vote for Independence because we don't like something* they're liars

    You're more likely to be bitten on the bum by a blind three legged dug with no nose than encounter a self ID person intent on ever harming anybody and these folk pushing this agenda are just lying

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  22. For many the GRA issue will be make or break in their support or lack of it for the SNP and even for Independence.

    Personally I'm much more concerned about homelessness, drug addiction, child poverty and having nuclear weapons on our doorstep. Without Independence we will make no inroads into these other issues as we do not have the levers of control.

    There is no one issue that should be above the goal of Independence, bad laws can be changed but as things stand the bad laws are mainly made for us in Westminster and we have no say.

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  23. Starmer's long term plan is clearly to get the Lib Dem and some Tory vote, to establish themselves as the unionist opposition to SNP instead of the Tories.

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  24. Skier on this VE Day 75 I have been reading about the pro Hitler General Eoin O'Duffy former head of the Irish Army who prayed for a Nazi Invasion and also supported Franco. He was the Irish Oswald Moseley and anti Jewish. He was a member of Sinn Fein IRA. No wonder the Irish do not talk about their shameful history. And Sinn Fein claimed to be socialist when they embarked on their 1969 Campaign. Nazis more like.

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    Replies
    1. A Britnat turd that reads - hard to believe.

      Delete
    2. What the fuck has someone who died in 1944 got to do with anything never mind me? Mosley was British. So were the moors murderers. So the fuck what?

      The only country / government that has denied the Irish the right to vote, using brutal violence to enforce that, and is now denying the Scots the vote by refusing a Section 30, is England.

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    3. Nazis and 'bum boys' are your main interests in life it seems GWC.

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    4. GWC - I think you are wasting your time with these Natsi's. They have the same characteristics of Corbynista hard left Socialists. The reality and economics of Scottish Independence is for the birds and the deficit and spending commitments of the EU Growth and stability pact alone would mean Scotland would simply be another Greece.

      Even if they didn't join the EU (If it still exists by then) they face exactly the same problem.

      64% of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the UK, only 16% is with the rest of the EU.

      Now, if they say Brexit is madness, then Scot Indy is Brexit squared on steroids.

      You can't be against one and for something even worse.

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    5. Oh dear. Covidia's talking to itself again...

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    6. Only really thick people think countries can't trade with each other if they are independent.

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    7. Greece has just 150 dead from coronavirus.

      The UK has over 31,000.

      Seems pretty obvious to me which county is well run and which isn't.

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  25. There isn't a government in existence that hasn't made laws that have been unpopular with a significant % of their population.

    The most recent major example is the introduction of the smoking ban, strongly opposed by smokers of course but also publicans and the cigarette manufacturers. Recently we have had changes to drink laws with minimum alcohol pricing and a lowering of the drink drive limit. Both unpopular with drinkers, publicans and the drinks industry who spent a lot of money trying to halt the introduction of the law.

    All these changes were unpopular with sections of society and poular with others such as the SNHS and charities concerned with cancer and alcohol abuse.

    What difference did they make in attitudes to political parties by the general public? I have no idea of the numbers but it appears very little changed because of single issues that were unpopular to some.

    All these issues were polticised greatly by the media as a weapon to attack the Scottish government and the SNP, they failed.

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  26. I have zero time for these frauds who use single issue arguments to attempt to blackmail a nation into not voting for its Independence by targetting the political party that has that as its ultimate objective

    We all know who we're talking about and him his blog and his now lack of any friends whatsoever tells you what real Independence supporters think of him and his fraudulent game of poker with the hard of thinking

    If the Twa* wants to have a political party then there's nothing stopping him having one and opposing the SNP, but he's not doing that is he he's trying to dissuade voters form voting for their country without that option, which means he's not supporting a cause as he says, he's trying to destroy other peoples cause

    There's nothing constructive about Campbell, he offers nothing

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  27. Young James your deleting is obvious. I print before you delete just for the record.

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    Replies
    1. Do you then pin them up on your bedroom wall hahaha

      Delete
    2. Nah, Covidia pins them up in its sobbing cupboard, next to its Better Together and Vote Leave propaganda sheets. Oh, the memories...

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  28. Genuine question, but why was a brutal, Greater Global British Reich all fine and dandy, but a much smaller German one was absolutely not?

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    1. Probably because there was a brutal French Reich, Spanish Reich, Dutch Reich & Portuguese Reich as well. But there were established at a time when empire building as the norm and Hitler tried when it was not.

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    2. That doesn't answer my question.

      Why celebrate the victories of one brutal empire, but not another?

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    3. 'Celebrations' happen to rember a country either being liberated post war or becoming independent from colonisation. The french 'celibate' liberation from the brutal German Reich in the same way that the Ivory Coast, for example celibate being liberated from the brutal French Reich

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    4. So on e.g. VE day, we should be waving the flags of liberated nations, rather than those of a brutal global empire with many nations crushed beneath its jackboots?

      That certainly would make a lot more sense.

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    5. If that makes you happy. As long as you did not fave the Dutch, French or Belgium flags as they all were countries were liberated from the Nazis but had brutal global empires that crushed nations beneath their jackboots.

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    6. National flags should be fine if the intent is to symbolise the people of the liberated nation, not specifically the empire. Many people didn't support the empires they lived within and could not change things through lack of universal suffrage.

      Certainly waving supranational empire type flags rather than national ones would be very distasteful. Also celebrating the 'victory' of one empire over another rather than the 'liberation' of peoples.

      I quietly commemorated liberation of Europe day yesterday. Had a Scotland flag out in memory of my grandparents who fought the Nazis so the peoples of all countries could have a Section 30 if they voted for one.

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    7. I had a combined flag of Scotland, England and Ireland on the washing line. The Union Flag.

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    8. It was on the line because Covidia vomited on it.

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  29. Germany paid the price of letting the Nazis sneak in and invade their own country, whereas in England they actually finance them to do it

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  30. I guess that Starmer, just like his predecessor, has basically given up on Scotland delivering anything significant for Labour. (Maybe with his unfathomable choices he's even testing the Far-North Branch Office to destruction.) But he evidently realises something that the BritNat propagandists will never admit, which is that Labour only wins when England decides.

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  31. Greece is a fantastic country , I go there every year , have done for decades , it’s not a financial basket case as some people say , it’s not one of the wealthiest either but it’s population is small and it relies a lot on tourism and Athens in particular .
    Much of its wealth is still owned by the great shipping business owners who take money out of the Greek economy more than they put in.
    But you will encounter a modern country if you go to Greece.
    Scotland is not comparable to Greece, Scotland is a smaller population with an even better economy and a much more varied business economy, Scotland is much much stronger economically than Greece.
    Scotland doesn’t have any deficit , Westminster controls borrowing and spending for the whole of the U.K. only Westminster can borrow and develop a deficit it does however apportion the deficit it creates to each of the three devolved governments Scotland Wales NI ,it does not apportion specifically any part of the deficit to England but if you subtract Scotland’s deficit , Wales deficit and NI deficit from the trillion pound deficit of U.K. you see that england has a deficit ninety times that f Scotland .

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  32. Comparing England with Germany is silly , talking about world war 2 continually is silly as well especially those commenting on this site who were not even born when it all happened.
    They will actually have no idea at all what it was like to live through such a war no matter what side you were on no matter what country you were living in living through a world war was frightening.
    Many many died in terrible ways.
    Having garden parties to celebrate is stupid glorifying it is stupid , England didn’t win World War Two the war was put to a stop by Russia and USA , England and Germany were severely damaged they had to rebuild and change how people were treated by their respective governments which they achieved .
    VE Day is an English invention.
    There’s no celebration in Scotland or wales or NI even the English people living in Scotland Wales NI are subdued about it.
    Only in England do we see such sycophancy of VE celebrations
    Not for much longer id day
    People are waking up to how they are being manipulated

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    1. Christine GlurtMay 9, 2020 at 6:01 PM

      I'm trending on twitter!

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    2. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-called-huge-ve-day-22001441

      Police called to huge VE Day street party as Brits flout coronavirus lockdown

      Police in Middlesbrough have been bombarded with complaints about the street party in the Grove Hill area as locals accused revellers of social distancing rule-breaking

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    3. BBC lapping it all up.

      https://twitter.com/_emma_tay/status/1258817183368515589

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    4. Social Distancing is being ignored in Scottish stores, parks, streets and gardens. I clocked 13 adults and three children just round my corner on the pavement outside a garden who were presumably having a hen do before a wedding as one of the women was dressed up with all the attire. Maybe they were an English lot with Glesga accents.!

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    5. It is sad that the Orange Wok will not go ahead in Glasgow and the various locations in Ireland. They could easily social distance and let the parade be a few more hours longer.

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    6. Not sure what you mean about accents. Have you ever heard 'no surrender' British ulster unionists speak? They sound like Mrs Doyle on St. Patrick's day.

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    7. Go on go on Skier have a sandwich.

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    8. We hoping that very many people take part in close-packed 'Scottish' Orange Wok.

      This advance social progress.

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    9. It isn't a day for sycophantic gloating. The English stroke British Tories don't share that view though. Oh and there are also some extremely thick people who obviously didn't lose any family members in the Second World War. There are many ignorant Brit Nat's who don't realise that the sacrifice the Scots made in numbers killed and maimed either. Scots casualties were way higher. I am subdue about it as my one surviving Uncle lost three brothers in that war.

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    10. Covidia used to practice social distancing.

      Then it came back.

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    11. The British are celebrating the invasion of a sovereign nation when they do their orange walk thing right? The Nazis did similar victory marches.

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    12. Which sovereign nation!

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    13. Covidia there, showing its usual levels of confusion. Such a shame.

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    14. Which sovereign nation?

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    15. Covidia there, showing its usual levels of bewilderment. Such a shame. So very, very funny.

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  33. My goodness can you see the whole of Scotland from your window, of course you can't because if you could you would see Unionists happily celebrating away just like the good Orange folk they are, notice I said celebrating and not commemorating because that's what the Orange folk do, they love a good knees up to a murder fest

    Yes there are less of us in Scotland who take part in this spectacle but make no mistake the other lot are still out there No Surrendering because it's not about anything other than a political demonstration on their part in Scotland now

    The English Nazis are nicer than the old German not nice ones, they're different didn't you know

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