Sunday, December 15, 2019

It's a shame when someone opts out, but the rest of us have got our country's freedom to win

There are lots of things you can do.  You can scheme your schemes and dream your dreams of personal political advancement.  You can resort to sophistry about how the Holyrood voting system works.  You can be as abusive as you like on social media and pass it all off as salt-of-the-earth working class honesty.  You can spend your days obsessing about an issue that is not a priority for the vast majority of the population.  You can sue Labour politicians to your heart's content (and you might even have a point about that).  But if you're remotely serious about helping to bring about independence, there are two things you never, ever do -

1) You don't try to sabotage a successful SNP election campaign by idiotically calling upon the charismatic party leader to resign just two or three weeks before polling day.

2) You don't try to undermine a thumping, newly-won SNP mandate with absurd unionist-style propaganda about the result being a "failure" and "nothing to do with independence".

I actually doubt if Mr Campbell's extraordinary behaviour during the campaign had too much of a direct effect on the SNP vote.  Wings readers were unlikely to think to themselves "Stuart is putting the boot in, so I'd better vote Labour".  At worst it might have led to some unnecessary abstentions among independence supporters.   But there's no way we can rule out the possibility that it had a detrimental indirect effect by sapping the morale of people who would otherwise have been pounding the streets for the SNP.

As for the SNP landslide having nothing to do with independence, he knows that's rubbish.  He'll have seen the same TV debates that the rest of us did, and will know that Nicola Sturgeon didn't shy away from making the case for independence, or from insisting that a second independence referendum must take place next year.  He'll have seen how central independence was in the SNP's manifesto.  He'll have heard reports of doorstep campaigners up and down the country emphasising to voters that independence was one of the three major SNP priorities in this election.  And yet he pretends to believe that all of the above is somehow negated by a single campaign video made by a single SNP candidate in a difficult-to-win Tory-held seat.  Why?

These are not the actions of a genuine independence supporter.  They can't be, because he's intelligent enough to realise that if anyone actually bothers to pay any heed to what he's been doing, the cause of independence can only be harmed.  Somebody who wants to bring the date of independence forward as much as possible would in fact have done the complete opposite.  They'd have been willing Nicola Sturgeon on throughout the campaign, and would have eagerly emphasised that the SNP's massive victory further strengthens the existing mandate for an indyref.

It no longer makes any sense to refer to Mr Campbell as a pro-independence blogger.  He's an anti-SNP activist whose first love is the trans issue.  If you forced him to choose between independence and the overthrow of the "woke" SNP leadership, he would undoubtedly pick the latter.  How it came to this I have no idea, because his passion for independence seemed genuine five years ago.  But something has clearly changed inside his head.  

Luckily the Yes movement seems to have recognised that he's opted out, and is moving on from him.  The SNP are doing just fine - a hell of a lot more than fine, actually - without his support.  It would be great to have him back on board at some point, but in the meantime we've got our country's freedom to win.

78 comments:

  1. I agree with everything you say here James. I have been blocked from his twitter account and website simply for disagreeing with him.

    He has completely lost the plot over the Trans issue insisting that it alienates half of the voting public (i.e. - all women) when the issue does not resonate as a priority for the vast majority of voters.

    The effect of his conversion from a supporter of Independence to an anti SNP campaigner has had zero effect on the SNP. What you have are him and a handful of his followers living in little bubble on the WoS website. Most moderate minded Independence supporters don't post anything on the site and, indeed, like me are blocked when they disagree with some of the crap that Stuart Campbell has been posted in the last year.

    I think he's a bitter, twisted individual with a an over inflated ego who's never recovered from failing to get one over on Kezia Dugdale.

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    1. So you think politicians should be free to lie and defame members of the public? What a lovely person you are.

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    2. What the fuck are you talking about and where did I say that? You don't think he's bitter about not getting the result he wanted in court with Dugdale?

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  2. I was a Wings reader every day since, almost, its inception. No more. I stopped reading the day he said Nicola should resign. Many of his articles used to be brilliant but now, well, you've described it brilliantly, James. So I suspect the only time I'll now hear about what he says is James is reporting it. I do think the best way to deal with Stuart Campbell now, is to ignore him.

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    1. I was the same I re-posted a lot of his stuff but no more I have deleted his site WOS no more.

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    2. Same here. I was a daily reader until a few months ago when I just kind of tuned out of what I was reading as it seemed irrelevant. I haven't visited the site for weeks now. It's a pity.

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  3. The wee guy at wings is an oddball. He puts his ego before country. Horrible wee cretin and better suited to cleaning out toilets. Filth attracts filth

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  4. It pains me to say it, but you are right. He seems to be consumed by his own Ego. Constantly saying told you so.

    Except , he said just before the GE that Sturgeon had screwed it up. The opposite is the case. She played a blinder.

    I trust our leader , she does know what she is doing!

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  5. Wings remains one of the very few political websites that I visit, as I considered it (like ScotGoesPop and Craig Murray) to be primarily factual news rather than comment. I'm fading a bit in my support though. Of late
    he has had few reports up to his usual analytical standard, and I'm not saying that because of his attacks on the SNP - I'm not an SNP member and I have no dog in that fight.

    However I was often astonished at the breadth and detail of some of his reports, often produced within 24 hours of the MSM headline which prompted them. This is a one-man operation? It made me wonder if he had a source within the SNP, feeding him research detail and saying "you publish this, we can't" - and that support has now been withdrawn, for obvious reasons. Hence the relative triviality of most of his recent posts.

    His vehement and usually offensive intolerance of opposing views I could live with - he blocked me on Twitter yonks ago. My crime was to point out that a (good) piece he wrote on the dangers of criminalising offensive behaviour jarred with his position on the OBFM legislation.

    Hopefully he'll drop the dead donkey, and get back to what he does best.

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  6. Yes I agree too with you James, I have noticed a big change in him in recently, he can be absolutely brilliant at debunking unionist myths in the media etc, and supplying proof that's overwhelmingly in support of such successful debunking. But what (or who?) Has got to him lately I don't know. I mean a few years ago he had the right balance on indy even if a tad slightly critical of SNP over policy or timing but within reason. Now he's almost unrecognisable from his previous self... Is it ego over wings party to start attacking his main opposition before it's conception, even if it could harm independence cause? Is it something else? Mr Campbell is one for statistics, he should care if his web traffic slowed down, maybe considerably and he has had some fundraisers that have been very big to say the least, he may find this fall's too as I'd guess that the vast majority of people who ever visited his site was SNP supporters. I don't believe that he is stupid and he must know that the way he's been behaving lately will have an effect on the hugely successful readership that he's worked long and hard to build up. It's like self destruction and there has to be a Reason
    Makes me think of a loud mouth US YouTuber who started so genuine and after attracting a huge following behaved noticeably strangely thereafter. And people asked themselves if he had been compromised?

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  7. I don't normally comment on personal spats but if you consider Wings as a significant indy media organ, then it would be an omission not to.

    Just as everyone noted when Sunday Herald came out for indy, it seems necessary to note when a previous pro indy site increasingly turns its fire on leaders of the movement.

    Of course it's the right of Wings to be an independent critic. That's healthy. But like others I would no longer consider it an essential or reliable source or indicator of what's important or happening.

    I long thought the indy movement was over-reliant on Wings and also the National
    so maybe it's not a bad thing if people diversify their sources.

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  8. I'm sorry but I am going to have to disagree.

    Women's rights aren't a minority issue, they will have a deep and long-lasting impact on political discourse for many years to come. I don't want to see news reports of female prisoners being harmed, or of women suffering abuse in places where they should be safe. I’m happy to use whatever pronouns someone else is most comfortable with, but I am concerned that the rights that women have fought so hard and long for are being taken away.

    And I never understood why the SNP have been trying to stop Brexit across the UK. The people of England and Wales voting to leave and that should have been respected. The focus should solely have been on keeping Scotland’s place in Europe, either through a special arrangement or independence.

    I believe Rev Stu is worried that the SNP leadership is adopting the wrong polices and choosing the wrong options. And I believe there is a risk that the SNP will eventually treat independence the same way that Labour treats the rights of workers. Could a Tony Blair style figure, knowing that everyone who supports independence has no alternative to voting SNP, re-position the party as federalist to gain unionist support?

    Politics in the UK discourages new parties from forming (Change UK) or splitting (any time Labour or the Liberals have split), but the system in Scotland is different. We have two significant pro-independence parties and 3 anti-independence, would one more pro-independence, one that may pursue that goal in a more focused and determined manner, really be that bad?

    Hopefully we will get an independence referendum shortly and this becomes a moot point. But support for or opposition to the SNP doesn't mean support for or opposition to independence.

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    1. As I said below, I'm on the side of women's rights (and the LGB alliance) and think gender identity is the biggest load of shite I've every heard. By it's own definitions, I'm 'trans non-binary' because I'm very anti sexist stereotypes and quite the 'modern husband'. It's dangerous shite too.

      However, it is naff all to do with independence, but domestic politics. It's comically insane to suggest that such things should decide how people vote in an indyref.

      Given there are many in the SNP who hold the same views as me on this subject, plenty of whom are vocal and in high places, I'm satisfied compromise base on sense will prevail.

      self-id actually is actually full of good intention, which is why I don't think many advocating it are 'the enemy'. It's just bad policy often starts that way.

      I've kinda come full circle from 'born in the wrong body' sort of making sense to 'that's just he biggest load of crap ever when you think about it' prompted by this issue gaining prominence, in part thanks to wings.

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    2. When the only party which can deliver an independence vote is being taken over by woke nazis there is a problem.

      When those same woke nazis actively campaigned to remove Jo Cherry during the election then they should all have been expelled from the party. They were not because the leader supports them.

      The Rev Stu supports an indpendent Scotland and has spent the last 2 years watching as sturgeon. N has delayed, obfuscated and outright lied to us. She did it again this morning.

      He said that we needed to take the english government through the courts back in 2017. Madmentalnicky says that she is going to do that now. One month before we leave the EU. And people still tell us to trust her, no questions allowed.

      That is the cult-like behaviour used by the yoons as a smear being proven true.

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    3. You keep saying you are 'trans non-binary'. I am sceptical. What is your experience of gender dysphoria? Can you describe the feeling and are there particular activities that bring it on?

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    4. I am a Wings fan. Started reading when it was podlandgamer, donated some cash in recent years, always contribute to the crowdfunders, and I like his aggressive twitter approach. I also have deep reservations about the self id nonsense, because we need to be encouraging more women to join the independence movement, and this self id nonsense is not helping.

      But all that said, while I remain a wings fan, he is definitely off form at the moment. In recent months, his analysis hasnt been up to scratch, his articles have been more sporadic, and his heart hasnt been in it. Its a worry, because we need him on his game. I hope he gets out of his slump. Maybe he needs to visit Scotland for a while, get a feel for the place again. But if this slump continues, its a worry for us.

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    5. Andrew think you got that comment wrong. He is on his game it's just that his game now is anti SNP rather than anti the UK. He now carries out the same function as the Daily Express/Mail/ Scotsman and all the rest of the rags. His ego is also out of control due to so many posters sucking up to him all the time.

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  9. p. s. Having a SNP-critical, pro indy site is part of healthy debate but they can't expect to be popular when some posts and arguments are indistinguishable from unionist critics. There are enough of those in the mainstream media.

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  10. I'd like to think I was right about the polls underestimating SNP support due to 2017 weighting, but who the hell knows and who gives a crap now! :-)

    The 45% is so, so important, and a massive achievement. While this was very much an English election dominated by their brexit (so Scots parties at a huge disadvantage), and it should not have mattered jack shit how many SNP MPs were returned because Holyrood has a mandate for iref2, it is an earthquake of a result. The SNP getting both a greater share of the vote and much greater share of MPs than Johnson 'in his own back yard' leaves him little choice; grant a section 30 or put on the swastika armband in front of the world. There's just no possible justification for the mealy mouthed 'but support for indy is falling' excuses that were used after the 2017 SNP set-back to try and put off calls for a new referendum.

    While I broadly agree with Campbell on the main points he has about nonsense of legal recognition without medical diagnosis of people who 'self-id' as under 18, 500 years old, disabled, zebras, santa clause... simply because they 'feel' that way at a given moment, I think he's rather lost the plot on the topic. We're going to have to deal with it in an indy Scotland, finding a sensible resolution, so it's a side issue. Press seem to be finally picking up on the utterly nuts ideas coming out of the grossly sexist shite + horrific medicalisation of healthy children that is gender identity ideology anyway, so I think we're going to see sense prevailing soon enough.

    It's up to Campbell what he writes about, but if there's one thing that's sure, he can't take any credit for the SNP's success on Thursday.

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  11. Roddy Collarless-ShirtDecember 15, 2019 at 9:37 AM

    I have built on the work of Petronella Mudge and discovered a text relating to the Wings Party:

    "In his first elected interview
    he put up a gallant front.
    But then, with Brillo in his face,
    he said "**** off, you ****!"

    (from "The Cantos Of Wingsy", Book 17)

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  12. No Section 30 = rogue state.

    UN CHAPTER 1, ARTICLE 1(2)
    To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace.

    UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

    PART I

    Article 1

    1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

    2. All peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law. In no case may a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence.

    3. The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.


    Freedom is something 'no honest man gives up but with life itself'.

    Centuries on it is still right there in the UN charters.

    Choose wisely Johnson. The dove or the swastika? The ballot box or the jackboot? Which will it be?

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    1. Just as I have been indicating for some time now, though nobody seems to understand. Johnson has a dilemma which might be too difficult for him to conclude. Hobsons choice really, SNP played a blinder, Johnson's in check.
      Damned if he grants a S30, FCUKED if he doesnt.

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    2. A section 30 request was turned down in 2017
      https://news.gov.scot/news/section-30-letter

      Must of missed the bit were the UK was called a rogue state for doing so. Can't remember any jackboots needed either, the SNP simply shrugged its shoulders.

      Of course indy refs are illegal in Spain. Again no protest from the UN about Spain being a rouge state.

      The European Commission has confirmed that the Catalan independence referendum was “not legal” under Spanish law.

      It described the vote, which saw police beat protesters and shut down polling stations, as an “internal matter” and suggested it would not heed calls to intervene.

      “This is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain,” a spokesperson said

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalan-independence-referendum-not-legal-spanish-constitution-european-commission-juncker-spain-law-a7978386.html

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    3. Erm, no it wasn't. Sturgeon stated her intent, and Theresa May neatly body-swerved it by immediately collapsing her own government and holding an election.

      The new Tory-DUP government that subsequently came to power never received a formal Section 30 request, and the Scottish government did not purse one.

      It's an option open to Johnson too. He can get out of this mess if the Tories votes for no confidence in themselves, hold another election, and the SNP take a big hit like 2017.

      Anyway, the UK has no constitution, unlike Spain, thankfully. It works by precedent. 2014 etc.

      However, I hope you are not seriously suggesting that England try to take Scotland prisoner and send in English fascists to beat up Scots grannies like Spain did? Do you know how utterly made it would be for England to do a Spain? An SRA would be utterly justified and have the sympathy of the people. The IRA struggled for sympathy because people in the north believed they had had the freedom to choose. If that freedom was taken away, all but the most hardcore unionists would sympathise with IRA actions against military targets.

      And I think we can all conclude that Spain trying to declare voting illegal has been a complete f'n disaster. It's done nothing but make Catalonia more pro-independence. No Section 30 and England will need to do the same, i.e. start beating up Scots and jailing them, with the same results. It would be an unmitigated disaster.

      If you refuse a Section 30 you are encouraging violence.

      Spain new that and started the violence straight away. There is no such thing as peaceful suppression of democracy.

      The 27 will be much more ready to intervene as well the moment brexit happens as the UK will lose member privileges here.

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    4. Why did every single SNP politician, and the SNP website describe it as asking for a section 30 order then? Why did the towering electoral genius not ask outright and then take the scum to court for their refusal? Why wait until we have a conservative government with an unassailable majority and are leaving the EU in 6 weeks?

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    5. Why would Enngland need to send in people to beat up grannies. It says know and either the Scot Gov follows what it has the last couple of years and does nothing or it takes the Goverment to the Supreme Court. The court will either then rule that the Scot Gov can hold a referendum without a section 30 order or not, no jackboots needed.

      UK will lose member privileges here.

      Are you saying that a member privilege of being in the EU is that it allows member states to use violence against people trying to vote and not intervene. It has to be balanced on this, if its ok for a member state to 'block democracy' by stopping indy refs then the same must apply to non EU countries.

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    6. "The court will either then rule that the Scot Gov can hold a referendum without a section 30"

      It will rule that's possible, but it would also rule that England is not obliged to respect the result, for that can never be possible (a country can only be compelled to accept the existence of another, never forced). At that point, England will need to decide to accept the result, or send in the jackboots. Spain sent in the jackboots. If spain had not sent in the jackboots, Catalonia could have moved forward with indy. Even if Spain had rejected this move, unless it was prepared to send in the browshirts, other countries would start to deal directly with Catalonia, accepting it into the community. That's how these things work. You let it go, or send in the jackboots.

      The EU is a trade bloc. It's laws govern trade. It does not as a rule directly involve itself in the domestic politics of members; you'd need a ruling from the international courts for that. This may yet happen in Catalonia. Certainly, the Spanish government have managed to push Spain closer to breakup by their actions, and if they don't backtrack soon, they may final break any remaining unionist support in Catalonia. The pro-indy parties just made historic gains in the Spanish elections, although these are dwarfed by those of the SNP here.

      For non-members, it will absolutely interfere though. Think Ukraine.

      Anyway, people who don't support a section 30 being granted at the request of Holyrood must hate Scottish people with a deep racist hatred. There is no other explanation for wanting to take away their right to free democracy. Many Spanish are deeply racist towards the Catalans, as evidenced in past fascism. Hence what's happening there.

      Certainly, my grandparents didn't fight the Nazis so England could do what the former tried and failed to do to Scotland (and Wales, NI...)

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  13. I donated money to that man more fool me he can get fckd now.

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    1. You probably donated to Salmond.

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    2. He probably doesn't need your money now Charlie.

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    3. GWC probably donates to the OO.

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  14. So, survation had 49% Yes but underestimated SNP by 2%. So Yes was maybe more 51%.

    Panelbase got 47% Yes, and they were 6% out on SNP share. So maybe 53% Yes if their weighting had been correct?

    And that was before the English extreme right Tories won a landslide and are now going to go ahead with a hard brexit....

    No wonder unionists fear democracy and the will of the people.

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    1. I assume the majority Unionists have to go along with anything you wish to do. You lose indyref 2 in 5 years time then it's indyref 3.

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    2. No, they don't need to go out and vote in indyref2. That's up to them.

      If they want to keep the union they should though.

      Indyref3 would, as per 1 and 2, be the choice of the Scottish people in elections, just as EUref1 (1975) and 2 were.

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    3. GWC Your prolabour, prounionist mantra is really FCUKED now. There is NO hope of a Labour government for at least ten years. We will have had 19 years of Tories by then, their Fascism looms over us, its insufferable. Time to vote "YES" and get out of the "Cuckoos Nest" that is the UK?

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    4. Do you really have to state the obvious about Labour. More like at least twenty years and deservedly so. A new Labour generation that respects the ballot results is required. CORBYN and Brexit pure toxic wee man.

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  15. My prediction is Scottish Labour will split.

    We may also see some Tory MSPs back independence, with a split there too.

    The earth is moving beneath our feet. From Edinburgh to Belfast, even, dare I say it, England, where the St George's cross now flutters in the breeze.

    Johnson as fired or managed to take out (e.g. Ruth Davidson) all the one nation British unionists. They hate him and brexit. The English nationalists have taken No. 10.

    We just had the last UK-wide general election. The nationalists/republicans have taken 3/4 home nations, including the biggest one. It's not possible for the union to survive that.

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  16. LibDem leadership contender Layla Moran has admitted slapping a man in Glasgow "identified only as Richard" (hmmm...) in a row over a computer cable.
    Maybe she could get together with Stu.

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  17. I hope you all enjoyed my show the other night.

    And, as I said to Jo, no-one likes a sore loser.

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  18. I agree his attitude to the SNP has changed remarkably since the Dugdale incident. Whether this is because he expected more support from some SNP members rather than them backing Ms Dugdale or it is real frustration with the SNP only he can answer this.

    But it's a bit naughty to say his support of women's rights is a minority subject, in fact it is his twitter feed that concentrates on this. I can't recall many blogs on the subject. This issue needs clarification and not some elected members just condemning anyone who raises the subject as phobes in need of education.

    So yes I agree his output recently has been overly negative to the SNP and this may be because he is considering starting a party, I will wait and see. It could have be that he has been doing his blog for around eight years and needs to move on, the long term lack of progress on independence may be taking its toll on many of us.

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    1. Naw it's simple he is totally out of order and has lost any credibility he had as an independence supporter.

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  19. Ach sooo Skier says the minority will dictate to the majority. Wars have started over less. Hopefully Boris will say you can have a vote during 2035 as per the generational commitment by the Nazis. Ach sooo.

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    1. There's many a mile from Oslo to the pictures of the moon.

      Delete
    2. Big Eater From PerthDecember 15, 2019 at 12:03 PM

      I have, within a matter of hours, provided The Answers:

      https://twitter.com/BerthanPete?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

      Delete
    3. GWC the resident Britnat turd.

      Delete
  20. Section 30 order from BJ vanishingly unlikely.
    Routes to same via courts pretty unlikely too.
    Conclusion ?
    Shift efforts to YES, identify issues on which unionists stand and fall locally and attack via sustained public campaigns for indy, better alternatives. Become the unionists nightmare with hundreds of groups pushing different and/or similar issues everywhere.Our opponents have few arguments and far fewer troops on the ground. We will gradually grind them down.
    Our local activists take a break to rest then restart in January. Always hit your opponent hardest just after he/she has suffered a defeat !

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  21. The 'woke'issue is a minor issue. You know the story. 'Stay an Independence supporter but attack the SNP- The SNP being the electoral vehicle necessary for putting us in a position to get Independence. In my view Stuart Campbell has had a better offer. I have no doubt if the SNP clean out the activists that have been tweeing nasty things about SNP womens candidates then he will change to attacking the SNP on something else.

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    1. When your old granny is raped in a hospital ward by some old pervert claiming to be a woman you might just change your mind. And the activists who campaigned against Jo Cherry are embedded in the executive of the SNP. They are supported by madmentalnicky and her strangely anonymous spouse. They are going nowhere and they are the ones who put their personal crusades ahead of Scotland.

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    2. I'd be fascinated to see your statistics that say:

      a) There are lots of self declaring trans floating about - your evidence for that is kinda required - lest you be thought a fool, or as unable to find numbers anywhere, as I am.

      b) that anyone's granny has been sexually assaulted by a self declaring trans, or

      c) that this is a 'real' issue, except in your somewhat over-excited diatribe.

      Please, provide your 'facts'.

      Frankly, you are the one winding up the 'threat' as if it were real. I agree with Jo Cherry, this is a complete utter nonsense, and your apparent support for her is nothing of the sort!

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  22. I'll vet that attitudes towards supporting Independence will harden pretty soon once the true Tory agenda is known.

    This could be as soon as February once the budget is announced. It will give a gloss towards spending on the NHS but at what cost.

    IMO austerity against the poorest in society will remain. There will be a promise of jam tomorrow once Brexit is done.

    Brexit will be used as an excuse to remove democratic powers from Holyrood.

    It all adds up.

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    1. And when they remove powers from the Scottish Parliament, and just bypass it entirely, you'll do what?

      Remember the Last Jedi when Po keeps asking purple haired Admiral Gender Studies what her plan is. Even going full Cain Mutiny on ther.
      Then her plan is revealed, the Resistance is wiped out, and all 12 of them can fit on the Millenium Falcon.

      Waiting until we are suffering from brexit, and 200,000 EU citizens have either left or will be denied a vote, is similarly insane.

      As a citizen of Scotland I have the right to know what politicians are planning to do in my name. This is not a dictatorship. I'm not taking it from Bojo, or Madmentalnicky.

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  23. If Johnson wants to save the union, his best hope is granting at Section 30, just like Cameron.

    If he refuses, many moderate, pro-EU, pro-devo unionists will change sides. You already have examples saying this.

    And you cannot make democracy illegal and not start beating people up / imprisoning them, no matter home some might dream.

    There is no such thing as peaceful suppression of democracy. You will have to send in the brownshirts.

    See Spain. It had no choice. If it had not sent in the jackboots to take back control, Catalonia would still be controlling itself, even if it wasn't fully independent. Spain has taken control, but it's by force and an unmitigated disaster which is a major PR coup for the pro-indy side. Spain is now in far more danger of breakup than it was before. Spain will soon have to be even more violent if it wants to keep control; once you step into this vicious circle, you are stuck in it.

    So Johnson needs to be prepared to use violence if he's going to dispense with democracy. It's just not possible to do the latter without the former.

    Much wiser just to go with a Section 30 and try to offer a new confederal union of something as the unionist option.

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  24. I don't read quite as much Wings as I used to, so won't make too many specific comments. I do know that I don't always agree with some of the methods or some of the positions taken by that site. And I do agree that the tone has somewhat changed, although exasperation at the exact aims and plans of the SNP post-EU referendum is something I have shared a few times myself.

    BUT: I do think it is important that the SNP be reminded, yes gently but regularly, that they are not entitled to get the Yes vote indefinitely, automatically and unquestioningly.

    Yes it is important to maintain unity and yes it is important to maintain the strength of the pro-indy bloc vote, which means everyone pulling together with the SNP at least for short-to-medium term, but a lot of the SNP strategy often seems to take the pro-indy vote as a given and then work out what to say to bring some of the other moderate undecideds over to them. This didn't work well in 2017 as a lot of the voters who would have voted for them failed to turn out. They seem to have recognised this a bit more in the 2019 campaign and struck a somewhat better balance, albeit maybe still not as clear as you'd like if you only voted for them for their Scottish independence position.

    Exerting a bit of pressure on them now and again to remind them that if they don't look like they're going to be able to delier independence (or at least another referendum), then maybe someone else will isn't necessarily a bad thing. That's why the "Plan B" stuff is probably going to become quite important when Boris inevitably formally says no to a Section 30 request. Just turning round and saying "ok vote SNP in the next Holyrood election and tell them again" probably won't do it, unless they've got either another idea to go along with it, or they can at least force Boris into conceding that another pro-indy majority at Holyrood definitely definitely is sufficient mandate for indyref2.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Leaving the EU is not a reason for a Scottish referendum. Anyhow Skier when is the new British due for issue?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You are right. No reason is needed, just a majority in the Scottish Parliament voting to hold one.

      Delete
  26. Despite Stuart Campbell's herculean efforts to put people off voting SNP they went out and voted just that
    This was a test of Campbell's own ego as he thought his words and musings were more effective than the First Ministers, make no mistake about who and what Stuart Campbell is the idea that he supports womens rights is laughable just as his committement to Independence was or is
    Stuart Campbell is a subversive by his own admittance with an ego to match, if you don't agree with him 100% then you'll be sworn at and called derogatory names yet he invites response for that very reason, to involve himself, to create self importance, to justify himself to himself
    These are all the traits of a narcissistic personality disorder and anyone who knows him personally would agree with
    He likes to think of himself as an important man, and what happens when people don't pay total attention to the self important man, the self important man implodes just as Stuart Campbell has demonstrated
    Wings over Scotland is of no use now to the cause of Independence because Stuart Campbell sees himself as the cause and people should support him and him alone no matter what he says
    His continual obsession over the First Minister is the perfect example of delusional behaviour by first pretending she has power that she doesn't then excoriating her for not using the power he said she has
    Whilst he was using these types of diversions on the Unionist parties to create the impression he was a supporter of Independence nobody minded because it was on their behalf, or so they thought but there are those of us who knew exactly what he was doing and that because of this type of personality it was only going to be a question of time as to when he turned that method around to use against whatever he decided to
    The sooner Wings over Scotland ends the better off we'll be and many of the readers know that because now WOS is only a place for supporters of Independence to have a blether on or for Campbell to attract more of his own type of subversives
    The proof in the pudding will come when once again he'll ask people for more money to fund his next pretendy project but really what folk are funding is Stuart Campbells delusional mind and more Haribo sweets and of course his entire life

    ReplyDelete
  27. The SNP would do well to understand that the Wings readership is double that of the SNP membership.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I, like most on here, are 'readers' of Wings. We show up in visitor stats.

      I also watch the BBC and visit its news site. Same for many pro-union news outlets.

      Your point is?

      Delete
    2. I seriously doubt that many unionists read Wings so your point about yoony sites is irrelevant.

      Delete
    3. Didn't someone say that the number of Wings donors is around 3000? Anyone able to confirm or deny that?

      As for readership, what no. of people glance at SNP leaflets?

      Delete
    4. From what I can see, the unionist readership of wings is huge. They do nothing but complain about ever article and tweet he makes.

      They are just people like us, but arguing the opposite case.

      Delete
    5. And anyway, that wasn't my point. I'm pro-indy and a reader of wings. However, I'm not a 'supporter' of Wings in any sense of the word. I think he writes some good stuff. Sometimes he just talks shite and has his head up his own arse. But then we can all do that.

      Readership stats only tell you who reads his stuff, not who backs his views, and certainly tells you fuck all about who actually votes based on what he says, which will be a very, very small number in the big scheme of things.

      Delete
  28. There are many readers and posters on Wings who wouldn't give Campbell the time of day, they use it to talk to each other and exchange views and arguments, Campbell is pretty much an irrelevance as to what goes on BTL and anyway you have to admit Campbells a bit of a zoomer at least

    ReplyDelete
  29. Don't visit wings any more - the Rev has lost the plot. It used to be a superb site - not any more. All good things come to an end, I suppose.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Bit harsh, James. Campbell is a difficult man to like at the best of times, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. I've always been of the opinion that the SNP at the institutional level is afraid of being perceived as being unreasonable or untrustworthy. Go back to before the party was founded, when the old Scottish Party and the National Party of Scotland were competing with each other to get the Duke of This and the Earl of That to act as sponsors and patrons so they could demonstrate how "sound" they were. A lot of that mentality has carried over into the SNP and it's a massive fault line in the party. It's the reason why Alex Salmond, for instance, was always semi-detached from the party, even while leading it. He was and is an unapologetic "Scotland First" nationalist who was indifferent to any opinions about whether or not he was too edgy or radical. He certainly felt no compulsion to save England from itself and would have seen England's crisis as Scotalnd's opportunity.

    The SNP have reasoned their way as far as anyone can in the matter of independence. No one seriously doubts at the intellectual level that Scotland will do just fine on its own. What stopped a "Yes" vote in 2014 was an emotion - fear. We all know about the Labour people knocking on OAPs' doors telling them to have their pension books ready for confiscation. Unfortunately, it takes an emotion to break an emotion and you're not going to reason your way any further down the road of independence without one. Anger is a good one, and Stu Campbell is an angry man. He has good cause, because as far as I can tell, the woke politics which is infesting the SNP - mainly from people who are entryists, who see the party only in terms of how they can use it to advance their own agendas - is the 21st century equivalent of the dukes and earls of the NPS and the SP.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No party is perfect and the SNP are no different in that respect. It does not excuse his behaviour. Please don't be another apologist for him.

      Delete
    2. "Nobody's perfect" is just too glib and pat an answer. This is a massive weakness in the SNP and it simply cannot be ignored any longer. Either they put independence before everything or they will eventually end up de facto unionists, regardless of their headline intentions. I don't think people are appreciating this.

      Delete
    3. Athanasius that's your opinion. I don't share it. De facto unionists - now you are talking rubbish. If you want to be an apologist for him fine there are plenty more on Wings for you to link up with.

      Delete
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    ReplyDelete
  32. "It would be great to have him back on board again"

    Not for me. I couldn't trust Wings ever again. He has burnt his bridges as far as I am concerned. His ego has got out of hand. It seems more important to him than anything else. All those posters sucking up to him all the time eg Bob Mack probably share some responsibility.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There are at least current 6 posters on wings that operate the same way as the trolls on the SNP Facebook page do - clearly there to stir up trouble and put people off

      It is obvious who they are and Stu has not banned them

      Delete
  33. "He'll have seen the same TV debates that the rest of us did, and will know that Nicola Sturgeon didn't shy away from making the case for independence, or from insisting that a second independence referendum must take place next year."

    He might not have seen any of that as he is in England. As an SNP supporter based in NI I experience the same Scottish news blackout that they have in England - you really have to try to get Scottish news and it is not easy

    ReplyDelete
  34. I think we can put Wings sudden turn down to being in the pocket of a certain ex fm....wings is a mouthpiece

    ReplyDelete
  35. Just a general note: as I have now stated about 79,428 times over the last few months, people are more than welcome to comment here if they actually have a substantive point to make. But comments that say nothing other than "shut up James", "yawn", "boring", "give it a rest", etc, etc, etc, are contributing literally NOTHING to the discussion. Those comments are not welcome and will always be deleted as and when I see them. Please stop wasting your own time and mine. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Young James you have been an honest broker on your sight and I have been deleted a few times for my daftnest however do keep going on and I wish you a good Christmas and a Happy New Year. Same for that Skier erse.

      Delete
  36. You're right.
    Whatever the reason, Wings has become a big negative for Scottish independence.
    It's so bad you wonder if he's trying to send a signal.

    ReplyDelete