Not all aspects of the Allied campaign in the Second World War can be considered just, to put it mildly. I can't justify the mass slaughter of civilians in Dresden, for example, and I certainly can't justify the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which constituted acts of genocide.
But to the partial extent that the war against the Nazis was a just war and an unavoidable war, it's instructive to consider how this country actually went about fighting it. Because to the best of my knowledge, individual men of conscription age always had the option to avoid taking part in direct combat by registering as conscientious objectors and doing non-military work of assistance to the war effort. It wasn't an easy option by any means due to the likelihood of social opprobrium, but it was there for those brave enough to take it. I recently discovered that one of my favourite actors, Alfred Burke, who went on to become a household name in the 60s and 70s, was a conscientious objector during the war. It's heartening that it seemingly didn't affect people's perceptions of him in later life.
Contrast that to the situation in present-day Ukraine, where the right to conscientious objection has been completely abolished. In practice draft evasion is common, but if you're a male of conscription age and you want to remain within the law, you have no option but to fight and die - and in most cases it really does mean dying, because the casualty rate is insanely high. That's one of the reasons, one of several, why western progressives are foolish to simplistically view Ukraine as the good guys who should be egged on to fight to the last man. Even to the extent that Ukraine is a democracy, we ought to be troubled by any notion that democracy is about the majority dictacting to individuals that they have to fight and die, irrespective of their own wishes and beliefs. That's certainly not liberal democracy, and it's not "freedom" either.
Yes, Russia was the aggressor, and yes, it's a good thing that Ukraine has defied the odds to maintain control over 90% of its sovereign territory. But it would be nice if there were some people left alive to actually enjoy that hard-won sovereignty, and from that point of view an early negotiated peace settlement would be a highly desirable outcome. Human life is more important than the sort of 'sovereignty absolutism' that insists every single square inch of Ukrainian territory has to be returned before the killings can cease, or that the perfectly honourable status of neutrality can't even be considered as an acceptable compromise. Some prices for peace might be too high, but not every price is too high.
All of that said, though, and even though Trump and Vance were posing as peace-makers in their public spat with Zelensky yesterday, my sympathy was entirely with Zelensky. There was an obvious double-standard in branding Zelensky "disrespectful" when all he was doing was exactly the same thing that Macron and Starmer had done in exactly the same location over the last few days - politely pushing back on a small number of carefully selected points. It seems that Britain and France still have just about high enough status that Trump feels he has to tolerate some dissent from their leaders, but the same doesn't apply to lower-status countries like Ukraine. Treating a country and its leader as being of lower value is in itself wildly disrespectful. Trump would doubtless argue that he gets to do that because of all the money America has poured into Ukraine, but the flipside of the coin is that Ukrainians have been fighting and dying as American proxies in a war against Russia. OK, that proxy war was being fought on behalf of the former US administration rather than the current one, and the US has every right to elect new leaders and dramatically change course whenever it wishes. But there is no right to forget decisions taken in the past by the former duly-elected US president and the debts of honour, or at least of courtesy, that are owed as a result. The human price Ukraine has paid over the last three years far exceeds the monetary price paid by the US.
Vance asked Zelensky a series of questions and Trump refused to let Zelensky answer. That was disrespectful. And it was particularly boorish of Vance to attack Zelensky for his alignment with Biden. If all foreigners are required to show respect to the US because "it's an American world and we run it" as a delightful Fox News contributor put it last night, wasn't respect owed to Biden as US President until last month every bit as much as it's owed to Trump as US President now? Maybe Vance thinks Zelensky should have played along with the fiction that the 2020 election was stolen and that Trump remained the 'real' President afterwards. But if that's the case, why should Zelensky pay respect to Trump now that he's in a constitutionally-illegitimate third term? Shouldn't Zelensky be paying respect to the sacred US CONSTITUTION above all else, JD?
I was in Glasgow yesterday and my eyes rolled to the heavens when I saw the front page of the Mirror, praising Starmer for fawning all over Trump and supposedly building an alliance with the King of the World. 24 hours later the same cheerleaders are denouncing Trump and urging Starmer and other European leaders to fill the void left by American leadership. At some point these people are going to have to get the story straight and work out whether Trump is friend or foe. You can't insist on breaking the bank to build up the military capacity needed to take on Russia without American help, while still demanding that we all genuflect to Trump on the logic that nothing can be achieved without him.
The state religion of Atlanticism is hard to give up, we know, but for the love of God make up your minds, chaps.
The US didn't so much elect a president as a personality disorder.
— James Kelly (@JamesKelly) February 28, 2025
I can appreciate your argument, James, but what would be your line when Putin then decides to move onto his next target?
ReplyDeleteHow do you know there's going to be one? His long-term obsession with the idea that Ukraine is not a real country and is part of Russia is well known. He's not known to hold any similar belief about the Baltic states, Poland or Finland.
DeleteRussia or the USSR did take land from Finland after WW2
DeleteHungary was a Soviet satellite state until at least 1988. Do you think he's going to war with his chum Orban as well?
DeleteActually, Putin has ambitions to take "back" Estonia and Latvia through the Russophone minorities there. He can't rely on a similar minority in Lithuania, but he wants land access to the Kaliningrad enclave. The minorities in Estonia and Latvia have shown their willingness to side with Russia in a similar way to the breakaway entity of Transnistria in Moldova. We know Putin wants Georgia and Armenia, and has already installed his troops in the South Ossetia and Abkhazia regions of Georgia. The Moscow Times is an interesting source of information on what's going on in Russia, particularly from an ethnic minority stance.
DeleteAutocorrect changed "exclave" to "enclave" above.
DeletePutin's stated aim is "to unite the Russian people" . Russians constitute 25% of the Estonian and Latvian populations. Many more are Russian speaking from other countries. Sudeten Germans, spring to mind.
Delete"The minorities in Estonia and Latvia have shown their willingness to side with Russia"
DeleteThat's very dangerous language, fostering paranoia against an ethnic minority. Are Russians in Latvia still denied citizenship? If so, the majority may be the problem, not the minority .
The treatment of Russian speakers in the Baltic states since the early 90s has been indefensible.
DeleteRussian speakers are not denied citizenship. That was the case in Latvia immediately after independence when speakers of Latvian accounted for only 52% of the population. Russia has repeatedly stated that denial of citizenship is the case still. It isnt: that's a Putin lie. Interestingly, Russia has consistently refused these Russian speakers entry to Russia and/or citizenship of Russia.
DeleteLatvia has been a member of the EU for 21 years and as such has had language and citizenship policies consistent with EU norms.
The situation 30 odd years ago was indefensible and an over-reaction to decades of Soviet policies of Russification, including deportation and the marginalisation of the national languages.
Anon at 8.19: You appear to be spouting crap here, probably with a deliberate intention to mislead. According to this Vice article from 2017, more than quarter of a million ethnic Russians in Latvia were still denied citizenship -
Deletehttps://www.vice.com/en/article/latvias-non-citizen-policy-leaves-thousands-feeling-stateless/
“Latvia is not a true democracy...The country’s politics are not based on democratic rights, they are based on ethnic rights.”
As for your claim that Russia denies them entry or citizenship, I neither know nor care whether that's true. It's Latvia's responsibility to provide them with citizenship and civic rights, not Russia's. I don't expect the Republic of Ireland to give me citizenship just because most of my ancestors came from there.
Well said. Anon @ 8.19 should quit with the propaganda lies.
Deletefinds > funds
Deletehttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/27/vice-clever-irreverent-executives-helped-kill-it#:~:text=originally founded as a punk,with islamic state in syria.
DeleteCredibility and Alba in the same post. 🤔
Delete'How do you know there's going to be one? His long-term obsession with the idea that Ukraine is not a real country and is part of Russia is well known. He's not known to hold any similar belief about the Baltic states, Poland or Finland' You are right james that he does think Ukraine is part of Russia so what makes you think that that letting him keep some 10% of(your words) of the land he has illegally occupied will stop him going further? As for Poland, I don't think many Poles will believe you
Delete"You are right james that he does think Ukraine is part of Russia so what makes you think that that letting him keep some 10% of(your words) of the land he has illegally occupied will stop him going further?"
DeleteBecause he's been fought to a near-standstill, and if he can get assurances Ukraine will never join NATO, he's enough of a pragmatist to accept what he's got.
Do you really think that.That's not what he says about Ruski Mir. And as a pragmatist, a peace at the moment is a way of rebuilding Russian military and economic power. Facing a damaged Ukraine, weak economically and militarily, with no security guarantees and no military aid they can rely on, he can start destabilising at the edges ask he did before in Donetsk and Luhansk and carry on the project. Peace at the moment is precisely what a Russian pragmatist would want.
Delete"Do you really think that."
DeleteYeah, that's why I said it, mate. Maybe dispense with the sneering? Thanks.
That is not a sneer -it's a way of saying that ,if you think that you are wrong for the following reasons. Your reply is evading taking issue with the point being made. My point being that Putin's pragmatic course is to accept a peace settlement. If he has been brought to a near standstill then that is the pragmatic solution allowing him a chance to regroup and rebuild
DeleteThe Farage fan on here will claim Trump is friend.
ReplyDeletethe british empire was 20 times worse than nazism; hitler was an empire fanboy - he loved the english, lives of a bengal lancer, he just wanted to emulate it.
ReplyDeletethe roots of ww2 lie in the wall st crash and versailles, which takes us to ww1
the roots of ww1 lie in the determination of the british empire to destroy german industry which had surpassed it
britain would have lost ww1 without the entry of america, which takes us to the balfour declaration (actually drafted by lord milner) which takes us to the creation of israel
britain is the root cause of the abominable wars of last century, but paid for it, exhausting itself, losing its own empire, handing it all to america
many british elites admired the nazis, including the royal family; antony blunt had to recover incriminating documents in the aftermath of the war
hess tried to get a peace deal with "england"
the reason why the british army was not massacred at dunkirk was because hitler still wanted to do a deal
britain did genocide, it just called it famine
genocide by famine was copied by stalin for the ukraine
the main threat of vladimir putin to the UK is that he might reduce our energy bills
why anyone should care about ukraine is beyond me; you kick a rottweiler in the nuts, it is on you
the ukraine war started with the coup of 2014
why do all the warmongering arseholes in the UK think they have a moral superiority
"the evil that men do lives on after them" - and the british empire was as evil as it gets
"are we the BADDIES?"
Morning Mr Galloway !
DeleteWHERE is MR ANGRY? Fancis.. "get your arse in gear it's not the 1980's any more" ( Quote from the TTF on their promo video) there is a gig on!
ReplyDeleteMeant to add that TTF stands for Title Transfer Facility, a great Dutch combo.
DeletePersonally the war has to end.
ReplyDeleteWars are complicated. The US didn't like nukes in Cuba. The Russian Federation don't like NATO expansion eastwards. US senators have said they want to break up Russia. Areas of Ukraine have been fluid for hundreds of years.
The Azov battalions were most definitely nazi.
Me I think Trump is bang on trying to stop the war. Stop a thief world war.
But Britain wants to commit troops despite special forces, intelligence and weapon support already fighting Russia.
Your English needs improving, Vlad.
DeleteAnon at 4.28. You imply that only Trump wants to bring this war to an end. That is a straw man. You also fail to acknowledge why he wants the war finished and on what terms. Read up on this and come back.
DeleteWars are foul. Collapses of empires, Roman, British, Soviet whichever produce especially messy situations because of the ramming together of populations in their formation.
ReplyDeleteNo war aims are completely clean even where important positives are at Stake. The American Civil War ended formal slavery but burned cities. In WW2 Finland was a democracy fighting against soviet domination of a small neighbour but allied to Nazi Germany.
Ukraine gained its sovereignty through an 'imperial' collapse. Later Putin invaded to reverse that sovereignty. It may be that war destroys humanity in the end. As a species we seem unable to rise above it however destructive our technology makes it. An imperfect Ukraine is attacked by a seriously imperfect Russia and supported by imperfect, and often greed based, allies.
It's all shades of grey. Supporting Ukraine is significantly the lesser evil.
Wars are indeed brutal and complex, but Ukraine's fight is one of survival against an unprovoked and imperialist invasion.
DeleteWhile no nation is perfect, Ukraine is defending its sovereignty, democracy and the right of its people to determine their own future.
Russia’s aggression is not just an attack on Ukraine but a direct assault on international law, stability and the principles of self-determination.
Supporting Ukraine is not just the lesser evil—it is a moral imperative to stand against tyranny and the violent rewriting of borders.
It is a good time to join the SNP. By doing so you help grow the party.
ReplyDeleteJoining the SNP has been an empowering journey.
As a member I have had the chance to attend the SNP conference, where I’ve met key figures, including SNP MSPs.
This experience has allowed me to interact with ministers and gain a deeper understanding of their crucial work.
The conference itself is filled with energy and a commitment to progressive politcs -- driving positive change.
Being part of such a forward-thinking party gives members a sense of contributing to Scotland’s future.
AI talking this morning @8.47am. Boring as boring is.
DeleteAs bad as IFS but usually closer to accurate than him.
Delete11.03am you have only posted one small sentence but you can’t even get that right. As IFS has told you before get a hobby and stop obsessing about him. Also improve your grammar.
DeleteI get the argument but I think if the reality was to happen here you might feel different.
ReplyDeleteWould a negotiated independence from England be ok if it didn't include the boarder areas? They remained?
The answer for most would be no as the independent country wouldn't be Scotland just part of Scotland.
Nobody wants to see Ukraine partitioned, as dividing states is a relic of the past that only brings instability and suffering.
Delete"if it didn't include the boarder areas"
DeleteBoarders are more trouble than they're worth, in my experience. If you do take them on, be sure to only give them rooms, not "areas".
Nigel says "friend".
ReplyDeleteI've got more money 💰 than Olympic diver Tom Daley.
DeleteVery well said. Spot on.
ReplyDelete'The state religion of Atlanticism is hard to give up, we know, but for the love of God make up your minds, chaps.' At last someone else knows about and discusses that secret virus, spread in Glasgow Uni, in Scottish politics, in the SNP too
ReplyDeleteGoing by that opinion, it must be a proxy war being fought by Germany as well.
ReplyDeleteAnd Japan...
DeleteWe all speak English as the beginning of our common language except England thinks whichever version of English it uses is the correct English because they are English from England, and therefore what they speak must be correct and every other user of that language not correct
ReplyDeleteThis means no country in the world can ever speak English as good as wot they can is it?
So why does England insist that America speaks the same language as them yet insist that Scotland the country next door and every other country in the world does not
Sycophancy, now that's a good word
Nicophancy is something you excel at Dr Jim.
DeleteI bet you've never been seduced at The bus station in Andorra. Well? Have you? ... thought not! Liverpool!!
DeleteUnfortunately, Putin is very popular and very mad. Possibly the next one would be making Estonia a southern suburb of St Petersburg. Who knows? Who on earth really thought he would invade Georgia, take over Crimea, and land airborne troops on the outskirts of Kiev? Russia is currently the most militaristic colonial power in the world by a very long way. As a comparison, consider the USA invading Mexico, with tanks, and defenestrating journalists in the USA.
ReplyDeleteIt goes without saying that the Trump/Vance response to Zelensky was atrocious and that serious US negotiators would have avoided such a confrontation.
ReplyDeleteIt’s clear that Trump/Vance understood Zelensky’s issues with their plan. If they were serious negotiators, they would have had a short presser with pre-prepared statements and gone on to have lunch and private meetings instead of showboating.
However, it’s surely also clear that Zelensky understood Trump’s plan and that it did not accord with his desire to fight on. He also knew that Trump does not want the US to be a backstop and that Trump’s plan involved treating Putin seriously. If Zelensky possessed any diplomatic skills, he would have known that arguing against Trump in public was not going to help him. If he had any intelligent advisors, they would have known what to expect and would have advised him accordingly—perhaps they did, and he ignored them.
PS: You will only understand this if you watched the whole meeting.
Time someone told Trump to fuck off, especially when he comes over here on the state visit.
DeleteGeorge
DeleteI largely agree. For Ukraine it would have been better to play the game you need to with Trump's personality which Starmer exemplified.
I think if interpreters had been used this could have diffused the situation
DeleteYes I agree - interpreters would slow things down and avoid people talking over each other.
DeleteAnon at 12.13 pm ... The puke-inducing Starmer couldn't keep his hands off Trump. If Trump had been a woman, Starmer would have been arrested.
DeleteTrump’S VP was playing to the American or north Mexico tv networks to show how tough he was. He is an idiot and so is his boss. I wish someone would ask Trump why he is supporting a communist dictator? Any truth Putin has some videos / photos when he used to visit Moscow, Russia?
DeleteI suppose that militaristic colonial powers should also feature Rwanda and Uganda, but who cares about the DRC as long as you can buy a new smartphone?
ReplyDeleteWell said, Amelia. I for one am refusing to dust my Venetian blinds until Rwanda starts accepting deportees from Spain.
DeleteI AM MAKING MY STAND.
Keir Starmer, interviewed today, is repeating the term "lasting peace" at every opportunity, even trying to use it to suggest that he, Zelensky AND Trump are singing from the same hymn-sheet.
ReplyDeleteBut Putin and Russia also want a "lasting peace" though on their terms ie retaining Crimea and the areas in the east of Ukraine they currently hold which Russia was making clear right at the start of the war.
I suspect this is also the "lasting peace" that Trump is talking about.
It is extremely frustrating that the TV interviews, even this morning's, are not seeking any clarity on this and that the "lasting peace" narrative remains unchallenged and undefined.
I'd like to invite Trump to a knees up . In a Siberian Labour camp. Maybe one of the old children's concentration camps along the Kolyma. Only it would inspire Trump to emulate the country he so admires. I'd also like to make J D Vance to sit through a performance of Wagner's Ring Cycle (ooh,matron). Surrounded by Eiropean music lovers.
DeleteYeah. I'm a bitch.
Anon at 3.42 -- well, at least you admit it.
DeleteI admit everything.... and anyone [oo-er, Vicar, that's a bit saucy!]
DeleteYour fetish should be kept private
DeleteThere is a moment here for the top EU countries in terms of military to work together and over the next few years build up a joint military capability that is independent of the US and that together is enough to deter Russia and give security to Ukraine.
ReplyDeleteThe key is to avoid losses to Russia in Ukraine for that period.
Worth noting the SNP has been generally supportive of Ukraine in all of this.
DeleteI'm not a big Zelensky fan, but from what I saw, Vance asked a string of bad attitude questions of Zelensky and when he tried to reply, Trump told him to basically shut up and didn't respect that as a visiting president of another country, he should have his point of view respected. Zelensky was to just sit there and be ridiculed on TV and the fact that he spoke back was a no no for what history will prove to be the true dictators Trump and Vance
ReplyDeleteVance is a hypocrite and a liar.
ReplyDelete