Friday, September 19, 2014

A triumph of fear over hope

We clearly are now facing a No vote, and as I said in my IBTimes article this morning, that will result in a national trauma that will take a long, long time to recover from.  I don't always agree with Gordon Wilson, but I think he's absolutely right that Scotland's influence within the UK will now vanish.  In the long run, the biggest questions may be for the likes of Kenny Farquharson, who convinced themselves that there was some kind of constructive way of voting No that could move Scotland forward, even in the absence of meaningful pledges from the London parties.

One battle we mustn't lose, though, is the battle for the truth of how this referendum was won by the No campaign.  I've already seen Louise Mensch retweeting a succession of comments from Tory Union Jack waving idealists, trying to weave a narrative that No voters were somehow embracing a positive message about the UK, rather than being terrorised into rejecting independence by the most negative, cynical campaign in modern British political history.

They may have won the referendum, but let's not allow them to steal the truth.  They chose fear, and won with fear, and as a result Scotland and the UK are diminished places.

88 comments:

  1. There's only been one area declared...

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  2. I don't think it's going to be a trouncing, Martin, but I'm struggling to see a credible path for an outright Yes victory.

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  3. I've been reading something about Y54/46N in Glasgow and 51Y/49N in North Lanarkshire, that would be insufficient for an outright Yes win nationally.

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  4. I am deeply disappointed.


    Will the Labour machine turn out in the future to organise, engage and inspire the voters from the poorest communities brought into the debate by Radical Indy? Will it fuck.

    Best we can do is to screw as much as we can out of Westminster in this bullshit 'new powers' settlement.

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  5. Robert, West LothianSeptember 19, 2014 at 2:38 AM

    Disgusted and embarrased enough said.

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  6. Can it not be salvaged at this point? Only 1.3% of the electorate has been counted.

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    1. That's the thing with elections - trends appear early on that reveal what is to come. Where a decisive result has occurred, you don't have to wait until 6am to find out what's happened.

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  7. Cuts disguised as tax powers. Forgotten.

    I really hope the yes campaigners who are out tonight don't do anything stupid or the media will have a field day. We need to keep our pride.

    I will never forget what the media and government did, it was an affront to democracy.

    I think part of Scotland died today. That's how I feel.

    Tomorrow is another day. Maybe we can pick up the pieces but honestly I don't know where we go from here.

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  8. North Lanarkshire, Inverclyde and Glasgow are all too close to call they're saying.

    It's the sort of places where Yes needs to get closer to 60% to win nationally.

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  9. Well, if even the predictions for Glasgow are slipping, then God knows what kind of national vote we're going to end up with.

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  10. And bear in mind...Edinburgh is looking like Y40/60N. So Yes would clearly need to offset that by large wins in the West.

    That's is not happening.

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  11. And bear in mind...Edinburgh is looking like Y40/60N. So Yes would clearly need to offset that by large wins in the West.

    That's is not happening.

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  12. Hahahahah

    HAHAHHAHAHAHAH

    No sorry.

    Sympathies

    To be fair you were way more astute about many things, you just got beat on the one single thing which dominates your entire life and therefore the rest of yr existence is now largely worthless.

    Time to try Buddhism?

    x

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  13. Ditto Sean Thomas. Where's Mick Pork? You know, that angry bastard whose grudges knew no bounds.

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  14. Ditto Sean Thomas. Where's Mick Pork? You know, that angry bastard whose grudges knew no bounds.

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  15. Yes have clearly failed and it is very disappointing. Scotland is going to be punished, and we are going to be really hit hard. I don't think there is much question of that. We have just said we do not want to run our own affairs. Who wants to live in a nation that says that?

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  16. Sean : Or maybe I should take up your lifestyle, and devote my leisure time to Thai prostitutes?

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  17. Does anyone think we will ever have another chance?

    James, I have been reading your blog for a few weeks now and it has been very interesting. I appreciate your efforts. Thanks.

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  18. John : Yes, maybe, but it's going to be a hard, hard road to get there. 15 years minimum.

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  19. James - in all seriousness - I have great respect for your acuity. You are, after all, the only person I have lost a bet to on pb,com (and I've now had quite a few bets). You're a smart guy and your blog is excellent, even if it is understandably biassed.

    I know you must be feeling blue, and bruised, but you are a young man and you have, in my opinion, significant political/journalistic talents.

    Why not use them to make a better, fairer Britain, instead of trying to break Britain up?

    Just an idea. Consider it. In the meantime, I salute your bravery and derring-do. Your side did well, given the weight of opinion and evidence against you. Bravo.

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  20. @James Kelly - bitchslap.

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  21. Thanks for your energy, commitment and insight.

    I'm sorry it didn't work out.

    You believed in something bigger than yourself and fought for it - that's worth something, even with a loss. I'm not sure all the trolls now circling around this blog can say the same.

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  22. I think you mistake your own beliefs as absolute truth. I respect your opinions and have enjoyed reading your blog. But I find it insulting that you assume that people who don't agree with you must be 'frightened'. I view myself a British Scot - that is my identity. You voted to reinforce the way you see yourself - I voted the way I did for the same reason. I voted No, not out of fear but for a positive reason - I am as proud to be British as I am to be Scottish. I know you find it hard to comprehend but try to widen your mind - there are many like me. It might be better for your own anger issues at tho time to accept that its possible that not everyone wants the same as you do.

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  23. "Why not use them to make a better, fairer Britain, instead of trying to break Britain up?"

    Because Britain doesn't want to be fairer - there's a clear majority against progressive politics in the UK. There's a majority for progressive politics in Scotland, but there also seems to be a clear (if reluctant and largely fear-driven) majority in Scotland for staying in the UK. So it's a real dilemma.

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  24. "I voted No, not out of fear but for a positive reason - I am as proud to be British as I am to be Scottish. I know you find it hard to comprehend..."

    No, I don't find it hard at all. I referenced people exactly like you in the post - the minority of people who voted No out of British patriotism. You aren't the sort of No voter who swung the balance in this referendum, and I suspect you know that, deep down.

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  25. focussing on how awful the no campaign was is a pointless diversion as you cant change their campaign and it masks deficiences in the yes campaign. Though maybe thats the point as its less painful.

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    1. We weren't voting for 'best campaign'. I think if we were the nats would have won handsomely. Their smoothness, discipline and control of message made Blair, Mandelson and co look like amateurs - right up until Jim Sillars managed to escape his makeshift prison in the basement of Bute House, lol.

      We were voting on our country's future - not for "best presentation". So even though no was dull and boring and panicky and led by possibly the most boring man in the universe, it still won. It couldn't not win. All it had to do was show up.

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  26. Anon at 3.15 : You're the one missing the point. The campaign that has actually caused harm to Scotland (and indeed to the UK) is the No campaign. If the Yes campaign have made mistakes, those have been tactical ones which have only harmed themselves - they've been relentlessly positive, and emerge with nothing but credit.

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    1. Scaring the sick, disabled, elderly and poor with NHS privatisation???

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  27. It feels to me like the triumph of fear and money over hope and justice. Given that the poll of polls was panning out at around 48% it feels, at this early stage, that many voters have believed the offers of more powers within the UK, and evidently not been overwhelmingly concerned by moral issues such as Trident.

    If so, such is democracy. I only hope that those who look like having swung it to No have some hidden wisdom, and will prove by their actions that this can lead to a better world for all.

    Assuming it is going No, I accept that as the settled will of the Scottish people for whatever reasons, but I can't say it leaves me settled.

    This blog site has been one of the few that has sustained respectful dialogue between Yes and No. I hope that continues. Let us stand in our dignity even if it feels stood on, and by our bearing reveal our nature.

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  28. Anon said - I view myself a British Scot - that is my identity.

    I, for one, respect voters who voted No for that reason. I have NO respect for those who voted No because they believed the more powers bullshit and think that Holyrood will protect them from the cuts. Because it won't happen. Poison chalice powers to raise incomes tax whilst the other tax streams head to London.


    If you voted No and you aren't affluent, hell mend you and don't complain to me when austerity max rather than devo max hits.

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  29. 3.09 anon. No I really really dont. Im quite surprised by your reaction to be honest. I thought you were a bit more politically grown up. People vote for all kinds of reasons. You in your replies and posts have made it clear you're were not just voting for nationalist reasons (an independent Scotland for its own sake even if it were solidly right wing) but because you are sure it will be 'progressive' - in other words you'll have your very own country to play with and it will always be the way you want it to be. Your own tartan Cuba.

    A lot of people who voted know may well have been scared off by that but are also very happy to be British and don't share your aspirations. You actually have NO IDEA why people voted no - you just want to believe they really all agree with you secretly. Every country contains vastly different frames of opinion, yet you claim uniquely that all (apart from a paltry handful like me) Scots want to be independent really? I cant tell you how many people I know who dont- really really dont - want to break from Britain and they vote for every possible party in Scottish and GEs (one even votes SNP in Scottish elections).
    There are a lot of British Scots - and a lot of Scots working in England who were disenfranchised. Your reaction disappoints me, though I understand you must be very disappointed and that may be colouring your responses.

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  30. Some hope that all is not lost:

    https://twitter.com/CybernatWatch/status/512788150679130112

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  31. Disagree that the Yes campaign has been relentlessly positive.

    NHS privatisation
    UKIP/Boris (really?)
    'Scottish' Nukes
    EU Referendum
    Food Banks/Inequality
    Tax/Spend differentials
    Westminster (ad nauseum)
    Democracy shortfall
    and more besides

    Some valid points in there, for sure. But relentlessly positive? I don't think so. More positive than the No campaign, at best.

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    1. What's so good about positivity? Life is boring, treacherous and lacking obvious meaning. I'm therefore suspicious of anyone who is too happy and optimistic. They are either on drugs or concealing a darker side behind that smiley mask - or they are just incredibly naive and annoying. As a natural pessimist and cynic about life in general and particularly politics, the Yes campaign grated on my nerves. I disagreed with them and voted against them for a variety of very valid reasons - but I'd be lying if I said crushing the twee, happy clappy positivity cult wasn't a motivational factor.

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  32. "There are a lot of British Scots - and a lot of Scots working in England who were disenfranchised. Your reaction disappoints me, though I understand you must be very disappointed and that may be colouring your responses."

    I'm not sure what forces must be colouring your responses to take you to that monumentally absurd comment about Cuba. I'll repeat, and please listen this time, that I openly acknowledge that people like you exist. That's why the Scottish Tory party still exists, albeit in semi-fringe form. But you're in the minority, you aren't the type of No voter who swung this referendum, and in your heart of hearts you know that perfectly well.

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    1. Tories make up 15% of the population. Had they voted yes or even if their support had fragmented along yes / no lines to the extent that labour and the libdems did, then it would have been a yes vote. Tories were therefore critical in keeping Scotland within the union. The mathematical reality of that cannot be disputed.

      Scottish tories - saviours of the union.

      No need to thank me ;0)

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  33. Sad to see that we've been invaded by the Quislings.


    You are either Scottish or English.

    If you voted no then you're English. From the Northern region of England.

    Scotland no longer exists. You killed it.


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    1. It exists as a region of the UK. As a proud Brit, I'm happy with that. The arguments of the 17th and 18th centuries no longer concern me. This is 2015. Scotland as a country is defunct and has been for a long time - and England for just as long. We are one united nation now, under one leader, with equal rights and glorious opportunities for those who wish to pursue them. God bless Britain. And God save our Queen.

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  34. Anonymous at 3.21

    Thank you for accepting my post in the spirit in which it was intended. I would say though (though I repeat this had no part in my Vote) that an independent Scotland would not magically have escaped austerity.
    It is everywhere... independence wouldn't allow Scotland to enter some alternative economic reality. Anyway I'll leave it there. I do realise I'd be feeling just as angry as you guys if it had gone the other way.

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  35. "I do realise I'd be feeling just as angry as you guys if it had gone the other way."

    You sound pretty angry as it is.

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  36. Hopefully one day the Scots will regain the confidence that the better together campaign has taken from them. Unfortunately that may be the enduring legacy.

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  37. Posting for the first time to thank James for his brilliant work, and TBH to offer my support as the trolls start circling.

    Progressive politics have been on the retreat on these islands for thirty-five years, so I'm well used to these defeats by now. If Scotland wants to keep going through this democratic deficit Groundhog Day forever, then so be it. That's democracy for you.

    Or rather, that's the oligarchy for you. Because of course here's the killer: what would tonight's figures have been with an even split in the MSM and an unbiased state broadcaster?

    The BBC we'll never change. That much is clear. But newspapers are dying on their feet, and the generations who trust them won't be around forever.

    In the meantime Podemos in Spain are maybe where it's at.

    Onwards (what other direction is there, really?).





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  38. LOL you acknowledge that people like me exist. Thats very generous of you. And you assume Im 'a Tory'. That comforts you I assume - I must wear plus fours and shoot helpless animals at the weekend.

    It was a mistake to attempt to put another point of view to fanatics - as I can see by the hysterical 'burn the witch' /Quisling/ you cant be Scottish if you dont think exactly like me stuff now emerging. That'd have been a lovely independent country you guys would have been running. If only you'd been able to remove the people who dont agree with you

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    1. You sanctioned a system that believes it civilized Scotland, Niall Ferguson's 'afghanistan' diatribe against the country of his birth. UK inc and its values of avariciousness. Enjoy it.

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  39. James 3.36 Im not angry. Im relieved. Very.

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  40. "And you assume Im 'a Tory'."

    The utter stupidity of the Cuba comment was a bit of a dead giveaway, to be fair.

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  41. Guys, here's a radical thought for you:

    You can be Scottish and British.

    Here's another radical thought:

    There is no fundamental difference between a working class person living in Glasgow and a working class person living in Manchester.

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  42. You're wrong actually - and I don't feel it was stupid at all obviously since I made it. There are degrees of belief in extreme progressive politics actually.

    In any case - perhaps you're succumbing in despair too early, and perhaps Im feeling relieved too early. There are still big councils to come in. You may still win. In which case Quislings like me had better watch out mmm?

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  43. "There is no fundamental difference between a working class person living in Glasgow and a working class person living in Manchester."

    Nor is there a fundamental difference between a working class person in Manchester and a working-class person in Casbalanca. I presume that's an open-and-shut case for an Anglo-Moroccan political union?

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  44. "You're wrong actually"

    Then amaze me - which non-Tory party do you generally vote for, and why are you so shy about telling us?

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  45. There's a majority for progressive politics in Scotland

    Really? In a nation which has been so tarnished by sectarianism, and which continues to be, albeit to a lesser extent than previously.

    If Scotland had received the same level of immigration from Eastern Europe as England then I am sure that the UKIP/BNP vote at the Euro elections would have been at broadly comparable levels.

    One of the lessons of this election - for the whole of the UK, not just Scotland - is that there is a body opinion which exists far beyond the twitter/metropolitan 'elite'.

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  46. "If Scotland had received the same level of immigration from Eastern Europe as England then I am sure that the UKIP/BNP vote at the Euro elections would have been at broadly comparable levels."

    You can be sure of a lot of things on the basis of zero evidence.

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  47. Anon, here's a radical thought. If I can be both Scottish and British why can't I have a Scottish passport or represent Scotland in the Olympics etc etc?

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  48. Well there is the evidence that UKIP secured a seat - and a signficant vote - at the Euro elections in a country which has received far less immigration from Eastern Europe than England.

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  49. "Well there is the evidence that UKIP secured a seat - and a signficant vote - at the Euro elections in a country which has received far less immigration from Eastern Europe than England."

    It received a derisory vote in absolute terms. The gap between the Scottish vote for UKIP and the English vote for UKIP actually widened in May.

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  50. It received a derisory vote in absolute terms. The gap between the Scottish vote for UKIP and the English vote for UKIP actually widened in May.

    By absolute terms I assume that you mean as a % of the total electorate? If so, that pretty much applies to all parties.

    Yes, there is a gap between between Scotland and England in terms of UKIP performance, but there is also a gap between the levels of Eastern European immigration in the two countries, which is the major driver for UKIP's performance.

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  51. "By absolute terms I assume that you mean as a % of the total electorate? If so, that pretty much applies to all parties."

    It applies considerably more to the party that finished a poor fourth than to the parties that finished first, second and third.

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  52. It applies considerably more to the party that finished a poor fourth

    Well they performed better than the 'progressive' Greens, which performed an even poorer fifth.....

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  53. Next you'll be telling me UKIP are really popular in Scotland because they outpolled Archie Stirling's Scottish Voice.

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  54. No, I am not saying that UKIP are really popular in Scotland.

    I am saying that they received a significant vote - no more than that - in a country where immigration from Eastern Europe - the main driver of their support - is much less than in England.

    No need to be ashamed by UKIP winning votes in Scotland. After all, they are much less malevolent than the Sweedish Democrats who secured such a signifcant in the supposed Social Democrat utopia of Sweeden last week!

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  55. "No need to be ashamed by UKIP winning votes in Scotland."

    I'm not, because they barely did - as you're getting closer and closer to acknowledging with every post!

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  56. Scotland's soul died today, it was the darkest day in our history.

    We are now a willing province, no longer a trapped nation.

    Even if the nation is reborn, it will be tainted forever.

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  57. Well they got enough to secure a seat - which is a pretty good start.

    I suspect that you know in your heart that if there had been the same levels of Eastern European immigration to Scotland as there has been in England then there would have been a broadly similar result in the Euro elections.

    Do you really think that a country that has such a history of sectarianism does not have a reservoir of hatred for 'others'

    Labour voters in Rotherham and Glasgow may not be identical but they are not THAT different in their social attitudes.



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  58. "I suspect that you know in your heart that if there had been the same levels of Eastern European immigration to Scotland as there has been in England then there would have been a broadly similar result in the Euro elections."

    No, mate, I know in my heart what a stupid and offensive comment that is. but well done for repeating it five times and being such a credit to the union-through-fear campaign.

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  59. UKIP are nothing in Scotland. They owe their one racist cunt of an MEP to the malign influence of the BBC.

    A BBC who will no longer have my money when I go to the bank later.

    Any gloating traitors on my way will be getting run over.

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  60. "Because Britain doesn't want to be fairer - there's a clear majority against progressive politics in the UK. There's a majority for progressive politics in Scotland, but there also seems to be a clear (if reluctant and largely fear-driven) majority in Scotland for staying in the UK. So it's a real dilemma."


    It is a great result keeping us together. We now need to all build a fair constitution that keeps us together but lets the english, scots, welsh and irish run their stuff in their way.

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  61. So it looks like Yes has lost and No has won tonight.

    To say -as one poster tries to above - that really we would all be rabid racists if we had more immigration in Scotland is such a sad sad thing to read. Not sad about us, but about how the elites persuade us we are uncaring and so can only rely on their holding power over us, not rely on and trust each other. Trusting ourselves and each other is what, for me, voting Yes has been about. And up against that has been all the power of the media and the corporations and the machine that runs through them.

    I am remembering a friend's Daily Mail reading parents at Lochgilphead telling him that east European immigration would be the worst thing to happen to them.

    A year later (once the Polish workers had arrived) he asked them how it was going. His mum replied:
    "I don't know how we managed without them, they are so polite, so friendly, and do such good work"

    There is a huge different between the reality of who people are, and how the way that reality is distorted by the media and the elite. Jeanne Freeman managed to withstand this distorting of reality by Andrew Neil - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23m6CukRUGM - but that is a rare moment of truth being told and refusing to be smeared and twisted and debased.

    The global elite use the media to turn people against themselves and each other, to ensure power stays in the hands of those who have rigged the system so that their obscene wealth can continue to amass as the poor get poorer and the planet is trashed.

    We need to be able to see through how we are manipulated in order to be able to stop the global elite destroying societies and ecologies across this planet. No one will win if this is allowed to go on - not even the elite or their children.

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  62. "It is a great result keeping us together."

    What sort of togetherness is it that is enforced by lies about price rises at Asda? That kind of platitude is meaningless after the most miserable winning campaign in living memory, but by all means join us in trying to repair some of the damage by arguing for federalism. It's going to be a hell of a tough road, though.

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    1. There were lies on both sides. That's politics. I notice the NHS hasn't yet been privatised, by the way. Nor has Holyrood been dissolved. Both sides issued hysterical warnings. When the Yes side do it, it's a brilliant campaign tactic. When noers do it, we're evil.

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  63. It was triumph of reality over fantasy. The real fear was that after two years, people still were not getting answers to big concerns from the 'Yes' side. Instead, they got deflections and trying to brand the other side as scaremongers. That demonstrated great weakness on the Independence side and we see that from the results tonight.

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  64. No, mate, I know in my heart what a stupid and offensive comment that is. but well done for repeating it five times and being such a credit to the union-through-fear campaign

    Ok, try not to see it through a England-Scotland prism.

    How do you explain the performance of the Sweedish Democrats and the Danish Peoples People in the supposed Scandanavian utopia of Sweeden and Denmark.

    And that is before we discuss the performance of the FN in France.

    The only difference between Scotland and these countries is that there is less immigration to Scotland and therefore there is relatively less support for populist/right parties.

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  65. "It was triumph of reality over fantasy"

    Er, nope. The fantasy was to be found in the scare stories. Fantasy and fear - proud joint winners tonight.

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  66. "The only difference between Scotland and these countries is that there is less immigration to Scotland and therefore there is relatively less support for populist/right parties."

    No difference? Sounds like you're arguing for a European superstate, then?

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  67. Hi James, many thanks for your wonderful blog. I feel so sad with the results so far, Scotland has ceased to be a nation and as you say, has voted to become just province of England. The media manipulation and bias has been so revealing and I think that the YES campaign has been brilliant in the face of it. I wish the people in Scotland were more courageous. I think the Union has been 'saved' by timid, selfish older people.

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  68. No difference? Sounds like you're arguing for a European superstate, then?

    No, I'm arguing for the position that Norway and Switzerland - two of the most prosperous countries in the world find themselves in; being able to control their own borders.

    That does not mean no immigration It means the situation that virtually all countries outside of the EU take for granted - being able to have control over their own borders.

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  69. Kelly - FFS just shut up. You have nothing of value to say.....still.

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  70. Scotland voted decisivly to remain part of the country in a great result.

    This was a model process and has changed everything. Watch the planet look at it and then look at Ukraine and Crimea.

    Scotland needs to talk to itself and come up with a proposal and England and Wales need to do the same. We've been together for 300 years. The result is fantastic as we have the opportunity to settle the constitution but we remain stable (and therefore rational) while we make the changes.

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  71. I have worked tirelessly to secure a Yes vote. I have campaigned on the streets and on the doorsteps for two years. Yet I am perfectly calm and absolutely focused even now when No look like having won this.

    Why?

    Because I feel nothing but pride for what I and my fellow Yes campaigners have done. I can hold my head up high and know I was on the side of hope against fear.

    Nothing will be the same again. Simple as that. You cannot put Independence back in a box now. It's far too late for that.

    Anyone expecting me or many of my fellow Yes campaigners to break down in despair simply do not understand how we got here in the first place or the kind of determination and firm resolve we have to change scotland for the better. This will no more be an end to Independence than devolution killed the SNP "stone dead".

    We will study these results and learn from them. Refocus and rebuild where we need to. Those who doubt that know nothing about how and why the SNP won first a minority administration then a landslide.


    We did it before and we can and will do it again. The absurd idea (and I've heard it from labour friendly pundit Curtice) that all Labour needs to do is run a better campaign from 2016 on is laughable nonsense.

    Anyone watching the blood drain from John Reid's face when he saw the Glasgow Yes result will know just how rampant the fear will be in scottish labour now. We have them cheek by jowl with tories being praised by Cameron and they are going to pay a truly enormous price for that in coming elections.

    The westminster system is corrupt and broken. It's failings are systemic. You can replace Cameron with Boris or Hammond, little Ed with Burnham or Cooper and it will not make the slightest difference. They are fundamentally out of touch with the public and always will be since that's the only way they can win power in westminster. Their pitiful turnouts for a GE will be met with amused scorn from now on thanks to the scottish public.

    The papers circulations will continue to collapse. The BBC have burned their bridges and a look at the fear on some of their faces tonight tells you that they know the colossal turnout and sheer number of scots who voted Yes does not bode well for them and their Iraq levels of propaganda. (as one of their OWN former lead journalists from Newsnight said)


    So now labour and the tories (the lib dems are an irrelevance and will be smashed in 2015) on No have a simple choice. To deliver something credible to the scottish public (which they can't) or watch the clamour for another vote when there's more cretinous middle east wars, more austerity, more westmisnter scandals and more privatisation.

    I have an immense sadness for those who will not be around in the 10-15 or so years this will likely take to come round again. People like Colin who at 81 was one of the most inspiring campaigners I have ever come across. Always cheery, an expert leafleter and a man who dared to dream of a better scotland.

    So when this does come around again, as it inevitable must, I will dedicate my efforts and redouble them for Colin and all those who have set us on an irreversible path but will likely not see it themselves sadly.

    Saor Alba.

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  72. Says it all really. You rely on tribal mythology and hatreds. You define your loyalty to your country by hatred of another one. You say Tory/English/bogeyman and you expect the Scottish people to blindly jump the way you say. You have zero respect for them - they're sheep to you people maybe because you're pretty sheeplike yourselves. You think you just have to brand anyone who doesn't agree with you a Tory and anything they say isn't worth listening to. As for the utter hypocrisy of accusing the No campaign of using the politics of fear when Yes used shameless scare tactics about the Scottish NHS (which is run from Scotland BY the SNP) to try to stampede a yes vote... yesterday someone told me she wasnt that sure about an independent Scotland but she had to vote yes because she'd have to pay for seeing a doctor otherwise. End justifies the means yeah?

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    1. Most countries in the democratic world have a conservative type party. The Americans have the Republicans, Germany the Christian Democrats - Spain and France also have their equivalents, as do most other democratic nations. Conservatism, like socialism, is a proud political tradition with good points and bad. The use of 'tory' as an insult - and a successful insult - marks out Scotland as a place where political pluralism has effectively died out, to be replaced with a left wing monopoly that ironically wouldn't last five minutes if the separatists were ever to get their way.

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  73. Another cowardly Anonymous troll foams at the mouth in impotent anger. You sound just a touch deranged trying to smear those who despise incompetent westminster party leaders when so many of the entire UK public self-evidently do, you ignorant bigoted fuckwit.


    Away and take your repulsive racism back to PB Stormfront Lite where you can worship public school twits like Farage and out of touch twats like Cameron.

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  74. that sentiment lost mick pork.

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  75. I fear you are the one lost Mr Anonymous coward, since you are quite clearly far too stupid to understand how laughably bad the personal ratings of all three westminster leaders are.

    I want a better scotland for all the people of scotland and I and tens of thousands have not just campaigned for it for decades but will do so again in the future. I've taken that message of hope on to the streets of scotland while you've wasted your worthless time shrieking on some inane westminster bubble site like PB/Stormfront Lite.

    You certainly can't pin the blame on me for having such a bunch of repulsive party leaders who represent westminster rule. You don't like them? Do something about it and get rid of them instead of whining like a child because they are so fucking despised all over the UK.


    I doubt an odious little twit like you has ever campaigned in your life and you certainly won't know anything about the unprecedented turnout we have achieved to shame your inept westminster party leaders with.

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  76. As Bill Clinton said "It's the economy, stupid!"

    You could separate from the fifth richest nation on earth and go down a path marked "?" or stick with the status quo with possibly a few more sweeties chucked in for Scotland. In the end, good sense prevailed. It did not, however, prevail in the Scottish element of the recent general election. No matter. The tory majority ensures the SNP cannot do any damage at Westminster.

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    1. Why are you suddenly spamming your way through this entire thread, eight months on? Who do you think is reading?

      "You could...go down a path marked "?""

      Well, that's what we did, right enough. A "Vow" that consisted of "we'll tell you later". Now the mystery has been solved, do you think the people who were persuaded to vote No are impressed? Small hint, by the way - when Scotland's democratic voice "doesn't matter", as you put it, Home Rule becomes inevitable.

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