My knowledge of the suffragettes was previously quite patchy, and one thing I didn't realise was that although Emmeline and Christabel Pankhurst initially set up the Women's Social and Political Union as a very democratic organisation, they later transformed it into an absolute dictatorship where no disagreement with their own policies or decisions was tolerated, and dissenters were instantly expelled. Absurdly, that culminated in the expulsion of Sylvia Pankhurst, Emmeline's own daughter and Christabel's own sister. Prior to that, the Pethick-Lawrences, who had built up the organisation almost from scratch, were unceremoniously expelled because they questioned the wisdom of militant tactics that incorporated severe law-breaking such as arson.
Emmeline and Christabel's justification was that they were at war with the government, and in a state of war you can't have democratic politics as usual - you need an unquestioned leader, an unquestioned chain of command, and iron discipline of members behind any decision taken.
Now, does that remind you of anything? A few weeks ago, the Alba leadership sent out an email revealing that internal democracy within the party was going to be completely suspended for several months, and that was necessary because the current executive team was supposedly uniquely familiar with Alex Salmond's private strategic thinking and thus uniquely well-placed to interpret and carry forward his wishes and plans. In other words, the party leadership now derives its legitimacy more from a kind of 'divine selection' (the words "Salmond blood" have even been used) than from democratic election. Alba's mission going forward will be to identify and do whatever "Alex Salmond would have wanted" - or rather whatever the self-selecting elite say he would have wanted, which will not always necessarily be the same thing. Presumably this is justified because Mr Salmond was, in a sense, "at war" just like the Pankhursts were, and had an unparalleled insight as leader into how London rule in Scotland could be ended.
Because iron discipline behind Mr Salmond's strategies and plans is required, rank-and-file members who are unhappy with the party's direction have not been encouraged to use the party's internal democratic processes to make the case for change, but have instead been told that "perhaps Alba is not the party for you". (Chris McEleny literally said that a few months ago in an email reply to an Alba member.) Those of us naive enough to assume that the internal democratic processes were there for a reason and that we could just get on with using them to press for change have found ourselves faced with trumped-up charges leading to either suspension or outright expulsion. Many people, of course, have simply jumped before they were pushed.
Alba in its own self-image now resembles a Leninist-style "vanguard party", which prefers to have a small number of people slavishly loyal to the leadership rather than a much larger number of people who might bring with them a plurality of views and friendly democratic disagreement over policy and strategy. That means the party has become the complete opposite of what it appeared to be when we all first joined in 2021. At that time it seemed to be an "all comers' party" - to join all you needed to be was an independence supporter, and from there you would have an equal stake and an equal opportunity to shape the party's direction. I remember, for example, the euphoria after an early Alba women's conference, when all of the women who had joined the party were able to get together and decide for themselves what the policy on women was going to be. That certainly wouldn't be happening now.
It seems to me there are two big problems with Alba's authoritarian and disciplinarian approach. The first is that I don't think any political party can function as a sort of 'memorial stone' to one man. It will become fossilised if it tries. However fully-formed Mr Salmond's private strategy was, and however thoroughly the current leadership think they have digested it, politics is a dynamic process and there will always be unexpected changes of circumstances that you need to react to spontaneously and creatively. Mr Salmond can no longer help with that. The Alba Party will always need to have a leader grounded in the here and now - which means that person cannot be the de facto "deputy" to someone who is sadly no longer with us.
The second problem is that, if I'm being honest, I'm not convinced that Mr Salmond's strategies during his time as Alba leader would actually have led to independence. When I was on the Alba NEC myself in 2021-22, there were a few things that concerned me. I was worried about the ever-increasing chatter that Alba might stand a large number of candidates against the SNP at the Westminster general election, but whenever those worries were raised, we were basically told to shut down all thought about the subject for the time being and unite in the interim behind the "Scotland United" holding position. The problem was that "Scotland United" struck me as part of a very obvious and transparent choreography preparing the ground for a large-scale Alba intervention at the general election, something which I assumed the leadership had already privately decided upon. I retrospect it looks like my guess was right. I thought we as the NEC should have been discussing, and perhaps challenging, the true underlying purpose of the Scotland United proposal. But there was never any opportunity to do that.
Towards the end of my time on the NEC, Nicola Sturgeon unexpectedly announced her plan for a de facto referendum, and I was also baffled and dismayed by the Alba leadership's reaction to that. I thought we should have embraced the news and dared Sturgeon to keep her word. Instead, the prospect of an exercise in national self-determination seemed to weirdly antagonise the Alba leadership, who redoubled their determination to bring Nicola Sturgeon down as First Minister. She eventually did resign, and what good did that do anyone? Her only two possible successors fell over themselves to ditch the de facto at breakneck speed. Now, I'm not naive enough to think that Sturgeon would have definitely kept her word if she'd stayed on. But even if there'd been only a 1 in 10 chance of her seeing the de facto plan through, a true gambler would have given her that chance, because anything that replaced her was only going to move the cause of independence backwards. No-one will ever dissuade me that the Alba leadership made a strategic blunder during that episode - always assuming, of course, that independence was actually the object of the exercise for them, rather than revenge against Nicola Sturgeon for its own sake.
The other startling thing about the Pankhursts is that, after moving to a dictatorship model, they also (with the honourable exception of Sylvia Pankhurst) moved away from their socialist roots in Keir Hardie's Independent Labour Party and swung dramatically rightwards. Adela Pankhurst emigrated to Australia and eventually became an out-and-out fascist. Emmeline and Christabel became born-again British nationalists during World War I, and endorsed the notorious 'white feather' movement on the grounds that young men owed it to women to lay down their lives for the Empire. After the war, Emmeline brought her political transition to its natural conclusion by standing for parliament as a Tory.
Alba's authoritarian, 'vanguard party' turn does not automatically mean it will also shift to the right. But there are some troubling signs. Neale Hanvey has repeatedly praised Elon Musk to the skies and even publicly asked him for funding. Numerous Alba spokespeople have demanded that Donald Trump should be treated with greater respect than (for example) the Greens are currently showing him, which strikes me as a very odd wedge issue to alight upon. And today it was reported that Chris McEleny has broken ranks with all other progressive parties in the Scottish Parliament by defending the Tories for seeking the withholding of funds from asylum seekers. All of these are examples of things Reform UK would be entirely comfortable saying.
Right from the start in 2021, some people tried to paint Alba as a right-wing party and I scorned that idea. But for the first time I'm starting to wonder. For some time now it's been pointed out in some quarters (including by me) that from a purely Machiavellian point of view, a right-wing pro-indy party with a degree of hostility to immigration might tap into a gap in the market and draw Yes voters away from Reform UK. But if Mr McEleny has decided that Alba is going to be the party to fill that gap, it's an obvious slap in the face for anyone who joined Alba in the 2021 on the firm promise that it would be a left-leaning, social democratic party in the mould of the Salmond-era SNP.
Is Mr McEleny's pronouncement an example of "doing whatever Alex Salmond would have wanted"? I can't deny the possibility that he's carrying out a pre-prepared, Salmond-endorsed plan, but ah hae ma doots. Mr Salmond always used to reliably come down on the progressive side of most issues, and I struggle to imagine him even risking the appearance of demonising asylum seekers. I suspect Mr McEleny has set in train what may be a lengthy process of doing things in Mr Salmond's name that Mr Salmond would not actually have done himself.
Oh for pity's sake, what is happening to this party? If you're going to find wedge issues, does it really have to be "we must be much more respectful to Donald Trump" and "it's not racist to make asylum seekers more destitute"? https://t.co/RJdSShoeEX
— James Kelly (@JamesKelly) December 13, 2024
With this level of analysis it’s no wonder why your blog has such poor readership. https://t.co/G9dJFbcj2o
— Robert Reid (@robertreidALBA) December 13, 2024
Well, at least the mask has slipped now, Robert. Let me put it this way: that tweet is entirely worthy of you.
— James Kelly (@JamesKelly) December 13, 2024
* * *
Poll commissions, poll analysis, election analysis, podcasts, videos, truly independent political commentary - that's Scot Goes Pop, running since 2008 and currently the fifth most-read political blog in Scotland. It's only been possible due to your incredibly generous support. If you find the site useful and would like to help it to continue, donations by card payment are welcome HERE, or alternatively donations can be made direct by PayPal. My PayPal email address is: jkellysta@yahoo.co.uk
Good piece, James. As a fairly disillusioned SNP voter, I certainly considered joining Alba in the early days. I held fire because of a suspicion that this was a coalition of malcontents.
ReplyDeleteWhat is emerging from that smells of right wing populism to me
Well, James...............seems like you probably now have completely talked yourself OUT of remaining within Alba, irrespective of the outcome of your appeal.
ReplyDeleteGood move.
Not at all. If the upholding of Mr McEleny's complaint against me is overturned by the Appeals Committee, I will stay in Alba. But not as a clapping seal - I'll be pushing for radical democratisation and a move away from right-wing dog-whistles like today's.
DeleteIn that case, it is your time to waste.
DeleteWe're talking about a 0.0001% chance, let's be honest.
DeleteAlba's views on cycling and active travel infrastructure also seem to be a bit right wing.
ReplyDeleteI mean when we've got pensioners making the decision between heating and eating this winter cycling infrastructure feels like a lower priority.
DeleteIsn't that a kind of generic "any progressive policy is bad because you should be spending the money on starving children in Africa"?
DeleteI'm in favour of cycling policy but what's being produced is utter guff.
DeleteWee painted lines and reduced pavement for 50 yards on my street and then disappears.
Total waste of money and actually dangerous. A Dutch network it isn't.
Anyone been to govanhill? Quality of cycling network is shocking. Somebody is making doe from council for a poor job.
Sorry for a moan but annoys me greatly haha!
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI agree painted lines are pointless, and in fact dangerous as they can encourage close passes.
DeleteI'm more in favour of targeting money at "link" segments that join quieter back roads etc and act to segregate busy roads and bikes. I think cycle infrastructure funds could be spent far more effectively.
Likewise the environment as a whole. Linking the rollout of carbon capture and storage to the permanent use of oil as an energy source, as the Alba Party have explicitly done, is against all climate science. The IEA makes clear that the world has to wean itself off fossil fuels to avoid climate breakdown. Cycling provision would be a good way to cut carbon emissions in the transport sector, with the added benefits of improvements to mental and physical health, as well as cutting pollution, but the implementation of this looks slapdash and bargain basement.
DeleteAlba's policy on oil and gas and especially the notorious big oil con: "carbon capture" has always been my strongest reservation about them. They are clearly right wing on environment already, and have been since the start. I shrunk it off as a north east/Alex Salmond thing, it Scotland's oil and all that. But it did always stick out like a sore thumb against the Scottish social democratic consensus, much more so even than gender critical feminism.
DeleteSo in that respect, maybe going openly right wing is a good move! If you are correct, James, all the Leninist-style control freakery at the top of the party could actually have a purpose: this very metamorphosis.
I still doubt it will work though. Reform has all the media oxygen.
Alba is moving rightward. Quelle surprise!
ReplyDeleteIs David Davis still their strategist?
DeleteHe should have defected to them after the rout in July to become their only MP!
DeleteBeing in Trumps pocket was one of allegations made by Unionists at the time of referendum, so it is really quite ironic to see Alba, trying to make the allegations appear to have been true.
ReplyDeleteIts a great tragedy that rather than being remembered for the man he had been, his legacy is now something as toxic as Alba, which if I didn't know otherwise, I'd be thinking was some sort of false flag operation. It exists to harm the independence cause, not advance it.
For all their imperfections (and that is true of any political party) the SNP is the only serious game in town.
The games a bogey anyway. SNP aren't getting over 50% of the vote again.
DeleteI agree with you but no way is it getting that level of support ever again. That's a one chance before govt tired a party out and they can never claim to be the fresh new thing when the people have experienced them fail in the past.
SNP and Labour will become the revolving door govts like a normal party. But it's days as a radical, rebel, state breaking force are done.
Did you imagine it was going to be easy?
DeleteWith a Labour government in Westminster, this is exactly the time to start pushing again. I'm not an SNP member, but they are the only tool we have.
I'll be pushing don't worry! I've only voted SNP as the vehicle my whole life.
DeleteI'm cynical though if enough of our fellow Scots will ever see the SNP as the clean vehicle in sufficient numbers now.
I think it's got a brand problem. Sturgeon should have set up a Yes scotland ish platform with all the other parties prior to the inevitable fall from popularity.
That sounds like Labour's thinking to me. "Surely Scots will tire of them and independence someday."
DeleteI get your point, but the SNP—as little as they deserve it now—has a privileged position unlike any other. They are the "permanent opposition" in Scotland to both Labour and the Tories down in London. They get to "govern in protest" against the government down south. When Scotgov's firing on all cylinders, they frame everything they can't do with "we could do so much more with independence" while doing the best they can with the little England gives us back. Independence is the guiding star to devolved government, when done right, as it was in 2007-2015.
It's a have-cake-and-eat-it situation they've secured for themselves. I don't think they'll be ejected soon. They remain the custodians of independence, as much as that annoys many of us here. They'll retain a lot of votes.
They'll retain the votes but they'll never be able to get over 50% again is my forecast under SNP brand.
DeleteBobbing along at 25-45% max, in and out of govt, but taking it to the levels needed? I don't see it. You never know though
50% in a regular, low stakes, boring election? No, you're quite right, those days are passed now.
DeleteBut 50%+ in a de facto? That's a whole other ball game. The only one that move us forwards to independence.
Well, it's a strategy I suppose. Right wing populism is in the ascendant in global politics so perhaps Chris (It's what Alex would've wanted) McEleny wants a chunk of the ever growing racist tube vote.
ReplyDeleteWhen your best pals were Tories what did you expect Alba to be?
DeleteMaybe the Green party in Scotland should do the same. They'll suffer the same fate as the Greens in Ireland if they don't.
ReplyDeleteDrill, drill, drill, baby!
DeleteSomehow I don't see that happening.
Oh for a green party that cared about the environment!
DeleteRather than niche trans issues and virtue signalling pish
I'd vote for that
I voted for it in every election from 1999 to 2021!
DeleteNever again, until they get their act together. The purple haired crusaders need thrown out so the environmentalists can get back in!
Environmentalists who back nuclear power.
DeleteIn Scotland? No need, we're overrun by renewables!
DeleteNuclear has a rôle abroad, perhaps, but let's not kid ourselves about the longterm nuclear waste problem. If nuclear power stations didn't conveniently poop out helpful material for making nuclear weapons, they'd have never been commissioned in the first place.
Britain has seen a massive decline at the same time as immigration has been on supercharge. I don't think there is a correlation between the two, there's something wrong with Britain at a more fundamental level.
ReplyDeleteOrdinary workers taxed to the rafters and public services are rubbish. Parks in ruin, people going private for health care, buses barely turn up, we don't even have a bonfire on bonfire night any more where I stay...cuts. wee thing but community cultural events are important. Cleaning of the cities are awful.
Where's all the money going?
I've always been left wing but I sense there is a lot of waste in the public sector. It's not been good recently. Is it all going on wages because the services need serious reform.
Naw , increases in national insurance contributions
ReplyDeleteThis all makes me remember the 2021 HR election. Voting SNP/Alba made perfect sense to maximise the number of pro-indy MSPs but in the end I just couldn't bring myself to give Alba my second vote. They just don't come across as a very likeable group of people. If anything, they remind me of the SNP of the 80s and 90s - reactionary, staid and not a little intolerant. You're better of out of it, James.
ReplyDeleteSomeone just looked at the evening of abuse I've taken on Twitter from Robert Reid (who as far as I know still works at Alba HQ and is therefore behaving entirely inappropriately), and said: "Why are you even bothering with the appeal? These are not good people and they're not going to change." I understand her sentiment, but I think it's important to see the appeal through just to establish whether there's any semblance of due process left in the party. Hopefully it won't drag on much longer, though, because it has been very, very stressful.
DeleteDoesn't the Alba rule-book disallow "targeting of individuals on social media"? Isn't that exactly what Robert Reid has done to you tonight? Should he now be facing his own expulsion hearing?
DeleteYou might well ask these questions. You might very well ask these questions. But I'm afraid I could not possibly comment.
DeleteJust read Reid's posts about you.
DeleteHe sounds like a five-year-old McEleny clone having a temper tantrum - and just as much of a Fanny.
You will never change those Clowns, pal....and those Clowns control Alba.
Clown Party.
I'll tell you what James is probably too discreet to mention - Reid's girlfriend and mum make up one-third of the show-trial committee that expelled him.
DeleteOoooh that's handy. Always useful to have your mum on a Conduct Committee, it speeds up and streamlines any witch-hunt you might want to launch.
DeleteYou deleted my comment, James. However, I did write a pile of pish so fair enough,
ReplyDeleteRobert would do well to grow up and stop targeting you, especially in public. However, he’s only just grown pubes so there’s hope for him yet & he can be forgiven.
Alba restricting asylum seakers fae haein a bus pass is hardly right wing. We are a colonised nation kidding on devolution is a worthwhile exercise - it’s not a worthwhile exercise, its a colonial administration & has ayewis been (bar a few years when Salmond was in charge).
I’m all for civic nationalism, but we cannae have civic nationalism before we have independence. We tried that in 2014 & didn’t work. We need a policy focus in devolution (ah ken I mocked devolution previous paragraph) that focuses on working class Scots. Currently the focus is identity politics left wing issues as opposed to class based issues. Alba are right to move away from the liberal dogma. There’s a big difference between balancing social conservatism with liberalism, & moving to the hard right where Reform are. Nations exist primarily to look after their ain fowk - let’s get independence first & start building a country for our own fowk, then chuck out the free bus passes to asylum seekers.
You really consider scrapping the 2 child cap and bringing back the pensioner winter fuel payment as "left wing and identity politics"?
DeleteAnon at 1:00 AM
DeleteI think a lot of people think "charity begins at home", and one answer to that is a society should limit its influx of asylum seekers and refugees to numbers it can manage a without serious degradation of conditions for existing inhabitants.
And that if it fails to do that and has effectively an open border its services like education, social services, housing and NHS can quickly become overwhelmed, hence decreasing the will of people to absorb more asylum seekers and refugees.
On the other hand with a severely decreased birth rate and an aging population we actually need immigrants to work, pay taxes, contribute to the economy and pay our pensions - and those services they will be using as well as us.
It is, as Moody Blues might say, a Question of Balance.
2.12 that all sounds far too reasonable.
DeleteThe crucial issue with population is housing. We all know just how mind-boggling house prices are now. Young folk have no chance to own their own home without hereditary wealth bailing them out. It's despicable. Inevitably, it's our cities, with the highest house price inflation of all, where the migrants come.
DeleteThe reason Scots aren't having enough bairns—the whole root of the demographic time-bomb—is the sky-high cost of living. People can't afford third bairns. Any less than that, and your population is shrinking. It should be our government's top priority to help young folk have healthy and productive families while they can. But our young folk are suffering in poverty.
Then we go and bus migrants over. Smart, real smart. No wonder there's hate in Scotland, too.
David Francis.
DeleteNo, I don’t have a problem with those policies in themselves, but I class them as an example of SNP low ambition politics.
Is that really the best they can do? Does Holyrood just exist to mitigate WM austerity? Social policy achieves zero economic growth, it shouldn’t be heralded as a great achievement…nor should it be ignored like WM does.
Great achievements would be land reform, a national energy company, decentralising power to & increasing no. of local authorities, & national investment bank that funds local authorities & not large corporates.
Instead they chose their great achievements to forcing trans ideology on public sector, enacting ill thought out trans laws & court cases, HPMAs, selling off Scot Wind for hee haw, & giving a can of Irn Bru to Joe Biden.
One of the things to look at in terms of birth rate, is IVF. Scotland is apparently considerably better than England in terms of access to IVF. I think for example in Scotland, couples are given 3 chances with a single egg, the rest being frozen, whereas in England it's just one attempt but with multiple eggs.
DeleteBut it's limited to just one birth, and only available to couples where neither already has a child, within a BMI of 18 to 30, no smoking vapes or any of that stuff, and neither was previously sterilised.
It's expensive, but does need to be increased - made more available AND more than 1 child, to help address the falling birth rate.
As for the IVF service itself by the way, they're very nice people, and I'd recommend anyone to go for it.
Agreed. IVF becomes a human rights issue, as society's forced women to delay motherhood to later decades in life. There's a complex web of reasons for all this, but that is the simple result. And the older you are, the more medical help you'll need.
DeleteThe real bugger of a societal problem is the smaller family sizes which are the result. Fewer than 3 kids = shrinking Scotland, and all the pensions vs. future taxation problems that presents. We really need to be smart about this. It's in all of Scotland's interest that most families are having 3 bairns.
scotland does 7000 IVF per year
Deleteit also does 18000 abortions, almost all for no good reason
has anyone thought this through - you throw away perfectly viable healthy life at one end, but spend millions trying to get barren old crones up the duff at the other
joined up thinking, courtest of feminism
Anon at 11:49 AM
DeleteAre you a male chauvinist pig who wants to dominate women, have them obey your every command or you'll lock them up and force them to unwillingly have your children even if it ills them in childbirth?
Asking for a female friend.
We need Independance cos of IVF.
Delete🫃🏻🧐
Tomorrow belongs to Alba! Lol
Delete@11:49. Forced birth is no path for a humane society. Ireland saw to the end of that with their immensely successful Citizens Assembly and its referendum. I’d write those into the Scottish constitution for resolving the intractable problems our professional politicians can’t.
DeleteWe don’t need to beat young working class girls with sticks. We need “carrots” in the form of housing grants and mortgage relief for mums.
Never let it to be said that Alba is some sort of nepotistic family affair. Off the top of my head, we have...
ReplyDelete1. The Salmond/Hendry clan.
2. The Reid clan.
3. The Wilson/Cullen/Donoghue clan.
4. The McEleny clan.
5. The Ahmed-Sheikh clan.
And clans 1 & 2 are linked by a romantic relationship. Any I've missed?
"Sons and daughters
DeleteLove and laughter
Tears of sadness and happiness..."
Blood and soil nationalism. Saint Alec's blood! Alba gu bràth!
Delete(slurps a quaich filled with Ribena)
As does every party. They have their family dynasties.
DeletePossible exception is the Greens because they’re a collection of misfits, eunuchs, and deviants.
I posted in the previous thread info I hadn't known before Thursday, about the asylum seeker free bus passes. But there's a major thing that you also don't read - the cost. From the ScotGov it seems to be £2 million a year. But this is the direct cost of the scheme. What is not included is the offsets for making routes more economically realistic for operators, and perhaps therefore reducing the cost per passenger. Which could reduce that £ 2 million to £1.5 million, or even £1 million.
ReplyDeleteThere are many routes that wouldn't run at all without the free passes subsiding the overall costs and therefore indirectly the fare paying passengers. And perhaps some routes would need to be provided even if the ScotGov covered the full cost of that route.
Anyways, in my view there should be sensible discussions about such an issue - that don't presume that those that question such schemes are "far right", nor presume that people who fully support them are "progressive". Sadly free debate is becoming a thing of the past on most issues. And perhaps in 20 years time that will be seen as the unfortunate result of the spread in "far right" politics.
Mmmmm.
And just as a last note, return of the winter fuel payment, return of the asylum seekers bus passes and mitigating the 2 child benefit cap are NOT happening this year - they're not happening until 2025/26 or perhaps later. That affects both sides of what should be a "debate".
ReplyDeleteOne last last thought for the night.
ReplyDeleteIf the MI5 were asked to investigate which person in the UK was doing the most economic damage to the UK, and whether or not they were a Russian spy, I wonder who and what they'd decide?
Heh!
DeleteSomewhat Off Topic, but hey, it's the weekend! ;-)
I wonder if Sue Greys enquiring mind ever probed Boris de Piffle Johnson over his affairs of Russian influence in Westminster?
Or if Keir Starmers handler ever pondered who was supposed to be answerable to 'the Nation' for the actions of the British State ?
I ask, who is the Crown Office in Scotland responsible _to_ ?
Perhaps MI5 would be casting around the corridors of Whitehall, wracking their consciences for answers, or perhaps the Sir Humphreys would smile and say 'why you Prime Minister!'
I don't think that calculating sell-outs like piffle and starver will ever be punished for their choices to be the concierge class for moneyed elites.
When bad actors like Harvey serve the British State, and British established elite power, they are by definition the good guys.
Perhaps instructive to remember that the total number of asylum seekers presently in Scotland, is a paltry 5,500.
ReplyDeleteHardly 'unmanageable' or enough to 'degrade conditions for existing inhabitants'
No need for such hyperbolic rhetoric, surely?
Just a thought ........
Seems about the right number to me. About the size of a small town here and that's one year. It continues to rise exponentially. This doesn't take into account those already through the process either and then resettled from elsewhere in UK both rejections, who take years to leave, and approvals.
DeleteThe immigration point is much bigger than asylum.
Depends how you cut figures. There are more displaced people than 5,500 in Scotland at the present moment. A lot more.
DeleteFeels like there's that many in Muirhouse alone…
DeleteYou're jumping in with both feet again WITHOUT having considered the full posting. My posting didn't say it was "unmanageable", nor did it say it "degraded conditions". What I DID say was that it was important to limit the figures to AVOID that happening.
DeleteAnd the figure - 5,500 is without context. Is that for just 6 months of 1 year, spread evenly over 32 unitary authorities, and for the likes of Glasgow for instance, spread over all 9 constituencies and 32 wards? Does that figure happen every 12 months, with perhaps a total therefore of 16,500 in various stages of the appeals process as Anon at 7.45 and 8.03 say?
Or is 90% of that 5,500 in 3 or 4 wards, 1,000 people perhaps with extra medical needs, and clearly no housing to start with, potentially overloading the facilities available to the average number of residents of a ward - which in Glasgow would be somewhere around 25,000 people? It needs figures for this, but in the first place it needs a plan that considers ALL these factors.
Hyperbole is something that happens when people do NOT consider any facts in context, but glibly quote a single figure.
I suspect theyve googled the first thing theyve seen. If youre thinking about people fleeing acute war as a whole, which is what we'd all be thinking, its nothing like 5,500, which is out of date and a record high. I'm not sure the data is properly given for all, too difficult to achieve. Albanians came over a 3 year period and didn't claim asylum for example. Ukrainians not included. There are way more than 5k just of that nationality alone.
DeleteMaking no judgement. Just the data is not clear. Asylum is a tiny fraction of irregular immigration.
Yes, FWIW I know both Syrians and Ukranians well settled here, and as they say, parts of the community, fully contributing to society in Scotland. But some see only the bad side, same as some see only the good side. There's a universe in-between, same as for "original" inhabitants if, taking it back through the generations, there's any such thing.
DeleteLast comment was mine.
ReplyDeleteFinger slipped on keyboard again.
Apologies
If it was ever going to be a success, a populist right wing ideological niche was always going to be where Alba was going to find success because for a long long time it was the area of the only significant area of the Scottish political spectrum that wasn’t properly served (there being no right wing pro-Indy party, an no party at all with a right wing populist edge prior to 2024 of any significance in Scotland). Had it firmly and effectively occupied that terrain it would likely be sitting with an MSP group elected on their own back right now an a reliable electorate.
ReplyDeleteIt’s likely way too late now - with Reform UK’s emergence in Scotland the ‘gap in the market’ is largely filled, while Alba are liable to get a fraction of the attention they did while Salmond was alive going forward.
This is correct. Regardless of efficacy, it is interesting to see some folk (let's leave it at that) in Alba reaching for the Musk/ Reform etc. playbook. Would well known, international, "alt right" figures and forces decide to fund Alba in the same way that some random guy on a horse, & without a political party, in Romania somehow won the first round of the (now cancelled) Presidential elections? Maybe they would place a side bet on Alba, in the same way that a VC invests $$ in a range of long shot start up businesses on the basis that a tiny number of them will break through to multi-bagger success. Those deciding to stay in Alba - this is your possible future, how do you like it?
DeleteThe Romanian example was all about their dear former-occupiers in Russia staking out an interest in their affairs.
DeleteFarage has that whiff of vodka about him too, of course.
I agree with @8:22 as well. There may have been a window of time for a Yes of the Right. Though Salmond's baggage (not his politics, but the destruction of his reputation in court) may well have stymied him having much of a part of it.
DeletePrevious NIESR analysis estimates that granting the right to work to asylum seekers on arrival in the UK would increase tax revenue by £1.3 billion, reduce government expenditure by £6.7 billion, and increase UK GDP by £1.6 billion.
ReplyDeleteSeems like a very obvious 'Net-Sum-Gain', to me.
Also pertinent to remember that the vast majority of Asylum Seekers ARE eventually granted Asylum here.
These poor souls are nothing more than VERY distressed Human Beings, fleeing from VERY unpleasant and sometimes VERY dangerous places, seeking our help.
The Right Wing Rhetoric used by some, tries to reduce these Human Beings to just 'numbers' and 'problems' and 'threats'.
Fortunately, the vast majority of Scots are FAR too compassionate, understanding, open-hearted and wise, to follow that dark trail.
Sadly, there are a few who swallow that type of Right Wing Rhetoric and indeed repeat and revel in it.
They are nothing more than Farage-esque/Trumpitty DROSS which Scotland could well do without.
Naivety on stilts this. It would cause a backlog and people smuggling gold mine like we've never seen.
DeleteThere's a reason no mainstream government proposes this.
I support the system we currently have wholeheartedly. No need to go to the other extreme.
There you go again. You are completely the knee-jerk screeching obstacle to having an open debate which causes the divisions and problems and solves no problems at all.
DeleteFor your information the Scottish Government WANT asylum seekers to have the right to work, which would make a large economic difference:
https://www.gov.scot/publications/extending-right-work-asylum-seekers-scotland-evaluation-analysis-policy-options/pages/4/
No, no need to thank me for informing your ignorance :-)
Meanwhile it may have escaped your notice but the Scottish Government had real problems balancing its budget, therefore the full cost - if indeed any - of taking asylum seekers needs to be carefully evaluated, not knee-jerked or virtue-signalled. As the defenders of the ScotGov point out - with the need to present a balanced budget, spending money on one thing means LESS spend on others.
Like the NHS, education, roads, housing, etc.
So what would you cut to take more asylum seekers? The NHS?
Delete2 million is a spit in a puddle. They didn't need to make that announcement. They chose to. Not sure who you're referring to.
DeleteI support keeping it.
Anon at 11:30
DeleteAs I understand it, the Scottish Government has recommitted to providing free bus travel for people seeking asylum by 2026. It was suspended this summer, so it's not being kept, in fact there will be no free bus in 2025.
I think it should be reinstated immediately. All the asylum seekers get is £49 a week, which is a pittance.
What should happen as well though is an impact assessment on areas which have a large number of them, and extra funds made available there for the likes of buses.
What I'm trying to do above is give BOTH sides of any sensible debate as it seems the Tories were shouted down in Holyrood.
Which is NOT why I campaigned during the referendums in 1997 and 1979 for Devolution. Democratic representation demands that the voice of our elected representatives be heard, whether we like their views - or not.
Holyrood is increasingly becoming as confrontational and deaf as Westminster.
Aye you either support unfettered immigration or youre a racist nowadays, it seems to some.
DeleteIt's complicated and not clearcut
And too complicated for the dimwits in Reform eg Lee '30p' Anderson.
DeleteIndyref2 , your Tory mask is starting to energy.
DeleteEmergency.
DeleteWard 10
DeleteAnon at 12:26 PM
DeleteYes, you must be one extreme or the other according to the extremists. Hence the brainless knee-jerk at 1:32pm.
The tories at Holyrood are there solely to oppose the SNP and sabotage the operation of govt. If the SNP/SG had announced that they were stopping free bus travel the tories would have opposed that. YesIndyref2 has let the mask slip a few times recently. He referred to the extra money we were being “given” by Reeves from Westminster, in approving terms. I got no response on the point that no one at Westminster “gives” us money, quite the contrary. It’s taken from us and a fraction of it eventually comes back. With a few exceptions the unionists will not participate in mature respectful debate in Holyrood. How can any Indy supporter not know that? And as someone pointed out this is supposed to be about Alba’s lack of democracy and their right hand turn. But it suits some to distract from their appalling right wing anti democratic behaviour.
DeleteAnon@3:08pm,
Delete“It’s taken from us and a fraction of it eventually comes back”
LOL
If you believe that, you’re seriously deluded!
Embarrassing stuff!
Anon at 3:08 PM
DeleteIt's useless stalkers like you that allow comments like the one at 3:19 to pass without challenge, because you waste the time of genuine indy supporters with your mad ravings while not having the slightest interest in advancing the cause of Independence.
As for the specifics, Anon stalker at 3:08PM, learn to use google or some other search engine. Try this in the search box of a search engine if you are even capable of using your keyboard without drooling "SNP SNP are perfect I kiss your bums":
Deleteaugust 2024 snp announce end of free bus passes for asylum seekers pilot
HTH but I doubt it.
Dr Kildare was here
DeleteMany Countries successfully allow Asylum Seekers to work.
ReplyDeleteDo not be fooled by some of the Right Wing CRAP being spouted aboug this
-
Australia, Canada, Sweden and Portugal (right to work granted almost immediately);
Germany (right to work after three months);
Belgium (right to work after four months); and
USA and Netherlands (right to work after six months)
Australia notoriously does their asylum processing off-shore in Nauru and New Guinea. They're very far from the bastion of wide open borders you suggest.
DeleteSweden are changing their laws.
DeleteI suggested nothing of the sort.
DeleteI was merely highlighting that Asylum Seekers CAN work in many other Countries.
They can work in the UK as well after a year. Many do.
DeleteThere are circa 1 million undocumented migrants in the UK. Asylum isn't really the main issue, the way I see it.
Deletesend them back to where they came from
Deleteanglo saxons back to jutland
Every year, tens of thousands of people claim asylum in the UK, with many of them waiting many years before they receive a decision. In the first year of their wait, asylum seekers have no legal right to work and must survive on very minimal government support. After this point, they can apply for the right to work, but available roles are then very heavily restricted.
DeleteThis policy has detrimental effects not only for the asylum seeker and their family, but also the UK itself.
Changing this policy could benefit both the Asylum Seekers the UK through a substantial net-gain for the UK Exchequer.
They have to wait a year legally...
DeleteAnon 11.46 Scots back to Ulster.
DeleteDo you think McEleny and co are now using artificial intelligence hence the move of ALBA to the right ? Assuming of course they know how to use a laptop. I should add AI and the views of the right wing don’t actually go together! If I was a wee Trotsky in ALBA I would still feel at home though.
ReplyDeleteIntelligence? 😂
DeleteIt's not about being a wee Trotsky. It is, allegedly, about being a Trump/ Musk/ Gabbard/ Farage/ Putin enabler. A new Warsaw Pact except this time Poland is one of few countries reliably opposed.
ReplyDeleteMcEleny has a whiff of Oswald Mosley about him. Mosley set up the New Party on a Keynesian economic platform but within a couple of years had transformed it into the British Union of Fascists. I'm not saying Alba will go anything like that far, but a transition from left to right does seem to be happening.
ReplyDeleteI have no information on whether Mosley ever kicked someone's door down in search of an "Andy Swan".
In fairness at least McEleny did that himself. Mosley would have got the Blackshirts to do it for him.
DeleteOh my God, can you imagine the Alba Blueshirts if they do go fascist? The McEleny Militia?
DeleteThe Cullen Commandos.
DeleteThe Robert Reid Reserves.
The Tas Troops.
I would join if they let me be Doenitz.
DeleteThat's fine, he was jailed for ten years for war crimes.
DeleteLandlubber at 1:39 PM
DeleteYou were keelhauled weeks ago for insupperordination and inability to eat your doughnuts, and stripped of your eshugettes. Go back to pumping the bilges.
I didn't know that Alba were anything other than right-wing, and not a little bit right-wing. I once got bored enough to read their economic policies. I think they were written by someone who trains hedge-fund managers in Hong Kong, and it certainly sounded like it had been written for hedge-fund managers.
ReplyDeleteEU law requires member states to allow asylum seekers to work after they have been waiting for nine months for a decision on their claim. A recent change will reduce this to only six months by June 2026.
ReplyDeleteIf our friends in Europe, America, Canada and many other Countries around the World can make this work, so can the UK Govt - as Asylum is a Reserved Matter.
Those who say this cannot work here are either woefully misinformed or are deliberately playing along with a false narrative created by those who have a completely hostile attitude to even the very notion of asylum.
NB - The UK is a fully signed-up member of the 1951 Refugee Convention and MUST abide by its conditions on the Rights of Refugees.
The UK is also signed up the International Criminal Court and is therefore obliged to arrest Benjamin Netanyahu the moment he enters its territory. Obviously, they will not. Britannia waives the rules.
DeleteWait, isn't this post meant to be pro Alba? James, make it so! Never mind that you are being chucked out, unquestioning loyalty to the cause comes first. Even now, your services to Alba may receive the highest accolade from the Leadership, but first you must repent of your sins against the party, recant your false opinions, beg for forgiveness, and do your penance.
ReplyDeleteIt is pro-Alba. It's just anti Alba's maniacally awful leadership!
DeleteALBA leadership are either in complete denial or in complete ignorance. oops maybe there is a 3rd alternative, just arrogant.
ReplyDeleteAlba are a complete and utter irrelevance to mainstream Scottish politics and their apparent drift to the Right will only cement that fact.
ReplyDeleteWith some bookies now making Nigel the Frog 'favourite' to be the next PM, all the Racist/Xenophobic twats up here will undoubtedly ditch the Tories more and more and slither towards Reform.
Alba have absolutely no hope of attracting those dregs, in comparison to Farage.
And, talking of the 'Scottish' Tories, I actually watched the entire Holyrood debate around their so-called alternative budget on Wednesday.
Their spokesman, Craig Hoy, had around eleven minutes to speak, during which he took three short interventions from other MSPs.
He was NOT 'shouted down' and finished his speech in the allotted time.
It was only AFTERWARDS, when ALL the other Party spokespersons gave their responses, that the Tories were, rightly in my opinion, strongly challenged by EVERY other Party, on the Asylum Seekers issue.
That is how proper debates work.
Anyone who attempts to describe that debate as the Tories being somehow 'shouted down' is talking utter garbage.
As a final point, I believe this site was started by James as a polling-explanation vehicle for Yessers and I followed it assiduously almost from its inception.
As are the vast majority of Yessers I have ever met - and I have met many hundreds personally over the years - it was predominantly Left-of-Centre folk who posted here. They were a good representation of the Left-Leaning Yes Movement as a whole.
How things have now changed.
Since James joined Alba, ScotgoesPop contributors have been far more to the Right than ever before - and it doesn't take much to work out why.
Alba supporters are generally more to the Right of politics than the average Yesser, so no great surprise that their views on Asylum/Immigration are more closely aligned to both the Tories and Reform, rather than the other mainstream Parties up here.
Indeed, I would hazard a good guess that there are more than a few 'quiet' Tories/Reformers posting regularly on here. Their true sympathies leak out, now and again.
Far be it from me to quote from the brilliant Jack Nicholson's Joker of Batman fame and suggest that "This site needs an ....."
Kidding, of course.
*group hug*
DeleteWe're only making plans for Nigel. Welcome to our group.
But, anyway, when does ScotGoesPop merge with Bella Caledonia?
ReplyDeleteAnd will they be any more sound, financially, follower-wise or otherwise?
Good afternoon, Most Loyal Member Of The Stew Campbell Fan Club. Great to have you with us, even considering the obvious non-trivial possibility that you may be Robert Reid. Well, according to your hero's latest monthly estimates, which apparently I'm supposed to be *devastated* about but which actually looked pretty healthy to me, Scot Goes Pop is the fifth most-read political blog in Scotland. Bella Caledonia is a little behind in sixth place. So what may scupper your interesting suggestion is that I can't see Mike Small being happy about being the junior partner in any merger. "Scot Goes Pop incorporating Bella" does have a ring to it, I can't deny, but I can't really see it happening.
DeleteI see the usual suspects on X, by which I mean frothing right-wing Brit Nats like "Aviemore", are queueing up to applaud McEleny's rancid comments. His new target audience.
ReplyDeleteTry the new alternative, Bluesky, a nicer environment all around.
DeleteI gather that the moderation on Bluesky is a bit excessive, ie. some political viewpoints are moderated out of existence.
DeleteOT From the National:
ReplyDeletehttps://archive.is/Ly4b2
"Value of Scotland's forestry land drops as sales slow down"
Seems to me - one - that there's been an increase in forestry land up for sale this year - maybe profiteers trying desperately to offload. And secondly that this is good news for communities. But I'd like to see some thorough analysis by the likes of Andy Wightman if it's in his area of expertise.
Mmm, I guess very few normal people are keen on hedge funds ...
Land banking—whether its forests for subsidies or green belts for $HOUSE $BUILDING—is a serious problem and should really be outlawed. Our nation's fundamental problems all come down to Who Owns Scotland and therefore land reform.
DeleteQuite whose idea it was to purge Andy Wightman, our leading light on this, from the Greens and therefore the Scottish Parliament, I’m glad I don't know because I’m so cross with them for their lasting harm on all of us that I could deck the bastard!
AW resigned from the Greens over differences of opinion on (you guessed it) trannies vs women's rights.
DeleteLorna Slater suggested at the time it was no great loss.
Lorna Slater got well-deserved plaudits from the YES movement for her speeches. The moment she got a taste of power she sank to the bottom of the trough. Very sad. Yousaf ending the BHA saved the SNP and the YES movement from further damage.
DeleteMaybe in time the Greens will recover from their power kick.
Not sure what the fuss is regarding free bus travel for unemployed asylum seekers. The SNP ditched that pledge about two years ago, and now they have re-pledged it but could quite possibly ditch the pledge again next year. Realistically, if it was going to happen it would have already happened. A lot more importantly, they seem to be completely uninterested in fully free bus travel for people on unemployment benefits.
ReplyDeleteAnother plunge into the vomitorium of bare faced lies. You're worse than Annunciata Rees-Mogg.
DeleteMany of the comments here determining that Chris McElenys' questions on free travel yesterday are right wing is nuts. Free travel for one vulnerable group without giving to our own vulnerable people is just asking for bother. Its playing into the hands of reform. Its 2 tier welfare. Our poorest single people are all destitute. Don't they get free travel? This is creating animosity and anger in schemes. Something Chris will be aware of coming from one of the most deprived areas of Scotland.
DeleteAlso. Poor women had to wait another decade for the vote, so is it any wonder these women swung right.
Just tarring certain views with abuse or as right-wing rhetoric is what's fueling the rise of Reform here and what led to the overwhelming victory for Donald Trump in the US.
DeleteIf you were to do an opinion poll on whether or not asylum seekers should get free bus travel you likely will see an overwhelming response that they shouldn't. With that in mind attacking the majority of the population isn't how you obtain support & will result in unexpected things happening.
Donald Trump is objectively very right-wing. Are you saying he was elected simply because people pointed that out? If it was really that easy, Jeremy Corbyn would now be well into his second term as Prime Minister, because plenty enough people pointed out that he's left-wing.
Delete"Poor women had to wait another decade for the vote, so is it any wonder these women swung right."
DeleteI'm trying very, very hard to follow that logic, but I can't make head nor tail of it.