Monday, April 17, 2023

No, the problem is not that the SNP promised a vote on independence - the problem is that they didn't *keep* that promise. If independence is ever going to be won, the SNP will sooner or later have to re-adopt Nicola Sturgeon's policy of a de facto referendum.

This isn't actually a premeditated attempt to demonstrate Professor John Robertson was comically wide of the mark when he said I was in a "gang" of four that also included Robin McAlpine, Stuart Campbell (!) and Craig Murray, but as it happens I was scathing about Stuart Campbell in my previous post, and in this post I'm going to be critical - or at least quizzical - of Robin McAlpine, albeit for completely different reasons.

Robin was on the side of the angels during the SNP leadership election, and I found myself agreeing with almost every word he wrote during that period.  He understood it was essential that one of the two 'non-continuity' candidates, ie. either Ash Regan or Kate Forbes, had to win, and he also stated explicitly that one of the key reasons for that (one of several, admittedly) was Humza Yousaf's lack of a credible plan for winning independence.  And yet, at face value, Robin's approach to winning independence, both before and after the leadership election, seems almost indistinguishable from Humza's.  Both men believe that the problem with Nicola Sturgeon was not that she failed to deliver the vote on independence that she promised, but that she promised it in the first place.  Both men, curiously, think the problem is at least partly solved by simply abandoning the promise.  They both think we somehow get closer to independence by not actually holding a vote on independence and by constantly telling ourselves that such a vote is too difficult or impossible or not actually desirable anyway, even though that essentially means lying to ourselves.

Robin has been absolutely explicit in recent days: he thinks we're further forward because the leadership election forced people to wake up to the 'truth' that he has supposedly 'known' for years - ie. that Nicola Sturgeon's promise of a vote was never deliverable.  But of course that isn't what's just happened.  The leadership election didn't show that a vote on independence was impossible - far from it.  The problem was simply that the election was won by a candidate who had committed himself to abandoning the independence vote.  If it had instead been won by a candidate who was committed to sticking to the Sturgeon plan of a de facto referendum, that vote would have gone ahead and nothing could or would have stopped it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best of my knowledge Robin has never actually explained why he thinks a vote on independence is undeliverable - he just seems to always invite us to take it as read that grown-up people understand from their more mature perspective that the vote can't happen for some entirely unspecified reason.  I'd suggest the reason he doesn't explain his belief is that no such explanation is actually possible.  A commitment to an independence vote is actually an unusually easy one for a political leader to deliver.  If Ms Sturgeon had held her nerve, a Referendum Bill could have been passed by the Scottish Parliament, and then either upheld or struck down by the UK Supreme Court.  If it had been struck down, moving on to a de facto referendum would have been an elementary step, because it would have simply involved inserting into the SNP manifesto for a scheduled election that a majority of votes for pro-independence parties would be taken as an outright mandate for independence, and also as a mandate to negotiate an independence settlement with the United Kingdom government. 

All of the claims about a de facto referendum being a "conceptual nonsense" were just people who didn't like the idea scrabbling around for any excuse to oppose it.  No, a de facto referendum doesn't mean having a single-line manifesto - you can, if you wish, have 200 pages packed full of policies on the bread-and-butter issues voters care most about.  You simply place those policies in the context of the SNP's plans for an independent Scotland, and explain they're all reasons why people should vote Yes to independence in the de facto referendum.

But if Robin truly believes an independence vote is undeliverable, even though it plainly isn't, it leaves him with a further commonality with Humza Yousaf, who uses magical thinking to claim that you can get independence without ever holding a vote on it because the "barriers will just melt away" if independence support rises high enough.  Surely Robin cannot be that naive?  Surely he must know that the higher the Yes vote gets, the greater the incentive there is for the UK Government to erect even more barriers against any exercise of Scottish self-determination?

My suspicion is that, deep down, Robin understands perfectly well that a vote on independence is both eminently possible and absolutely necessary.  I'm just guessing, but I think what he really means when he says the Sturgeon plan was undeliverable is that he had a prescription after 2014 for how independence was going to be won, involving policy development and a mass movement, and a vote much later on once the spadework had been done.  He was therefore annoyed with Nicola Sturgeon for announcing a quick referendum in 2016 which he felt was putting the cart before the horse, and he wished the whole thing would just go away.  But believing something is a bad idea or that it might backfire is not the same thing as believing it is undeliverable, and there's a touch of intellectual dishonesty in suggesting that it is.

The reality is that we can go on a scenic detour for however many years Robin and Humza want, but ultimately we'll always come back to that stubborn 'process' question that simply can't be magicked away.  And whenever the SNP are ready to answer that question (almost certainly after replacing Humza as leader), they'll find that, just like now, the only realistic answer consists of three words: "de facto referendum".

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."
- T.S. Eliot

29 comments:

  1. My reading of what Robin McAlpine has written was that he is in favour of a referendum, but he believes that there's a lot more analysis and development required to present the start of a winning argument that can be sold during the campaign.

    In this I agree with him. The groundwork of a winning campaign is undertaken before the campaign itself.

    As an analogy, Scottish Independence is like building a bridge and you can't engineer, procure & construct a bridge as you go along - you risk failure that your design doesn't work when you've built half of it. Like building a bridge the Independence movement has to engineer its pro-indy arguments, plan and procure the resources to deliver a successful referendum result ndependence and then construct a winning argument during the campaign.

    I can't remember reading anything by him on his position on a defacto referendum. For me 50% pro-indy votes in Holyrood GE is enough to request negotiations

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't think there's any room for ambiguity or misinterpretation: he's said that the vote on independence promised by Nicola Sturgeon was always undeliverable, and that people now belatedly understand that. That's just plain wrong: it's very easily deliverable, and could be delivered by the end of this year if the will was there. The sole problem is that there's a newly-elected SNP leader who has chosen to abandon the plan.

      Delete
    2. Hi James.

      I've went back to Robin's post of the 11th April and the 'not deliverable' part is discussing the situation in 2016 immediately after the Brexit vote.

      To quote:
      "It was clear to me she simply couldn’t deliver what she had just said she would deliver and the full range of the implications of that reality took only a few seconds to consider.

      From that moment, I knew that independence would require one important initial step – we’d all need to accept that this ‘shortcut’ approach was a mirage. There was no version of ‘get a referendum first and then somehow just win it’ which was going to work. We needed to realise this before we could move on."

      My interpretation of his words is that there's no shortcut to Independence and that any successful route (in this case a win in a referendum) requires a robust case to be built.

      I believe that he's correct - prepare the case for independence and then decide on the democratic route that's best for presenting it to the people - WM sanctioned referendum, defacto referendum at the UK GE, defacto referendum at a Holyrood election or some other means.


      Delete
    3. There's nothing in his words to 'interpret' - the meaning is crystal-clear. "It was clear to me she simply couldn’t deliver what she had just said she would deliver" - he's saying that she couldn't deliver a vote on independence, because that's all she had just promised. She hadn't promised to *win* a vote on independence, merely to *hold* one. It's plainly nonsense to suggest she couldn't deliver that promise - she didn't deliver it in the end, but that was a matter of *choice*, just as it is for Humza.

      Delete
  2. But the UK government cannot prevent the SNP -- or anyone else -- from holding an independence referendum in Scotland. (The UK goovernment can of course prevent the SNP -- or anyone else -- from using UK government institutions to organise it, and from getting UK taxpayers to pay for it).
    ......And if your response is something on the lines of 'But the UK government could simply ignore a positive vote in such a referendum'? Well, so they could: just as they could with any 'de facto' referendum, too!.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No, that's not my response. My response is that using a scheduled election as a de facto referendum means the process will be beyond reproach, and thus is obviously far superior to any unofficial vote organised in very difficult circumstances.

      Delete
  3. Remove all pro independence MPs from Westminster. Not that the gutless SNP would ever agree to that. But it would certainly grab the headlines world-wide and show to everyone just how ridiculously undemocratic the so-called united kingdom really is.

    ReplyDelete
  4. And now - the resignation that you've been waiting for...
    Yes, it's The Bathtub Admiral;

    April 17, 2023 at 1:10 pm

    "So you clear up, but also remove the oriignal – well-thought out and researched – posting where I say “The SNP is in denial”, about the dire need for governance reform?

    And you think that is good for Indy and the SNP, to let it continue to self-destruct? No, it ain’t, if the SNP goes down, Indy goes down.

    Anyways, I’ve been posting here for quite a long time, done a lot of research. Unlike some I don’t just froth at the mouth. and you moderate out my postings willy-nilly? Because you don’t respect my efforts?

    Bye bye, and good luck with the denial."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If only he'd said "Goodbye, and thanks for all the carrots".

      Delete
    2. The laughably called "yesindyref2" being censored.

      Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.

      Delete
    3. The Admiral should have finished with the standard Looney Tunes line of bugs bunny saying " Thats all folks"

      McAlpine in his latest article talks about the SNP being an idiocy. Well what can you call btl WGD then? How about Looney Tunes.

      Delete
  5. Sky reporting SNP Treasurer Colin Beattie has been arrested. This is the guy that Murrell installed in place after the Treasurer voted by the members was forced out by Murrell.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Reinstalled. Many years of service given with just a momentary blip when the membership got the hump.
      Donald

      Delete
  6. I recall that during the two general elections in 1974,that the SNP stated that a majority of seats won by them was a mandate for independence.I am staring to believe that it was a mistake to introduce a referendum as the means of gaining independence,since the UK government has set up a road block to that route.For that reason it does seem logical to return to the strategy of using an election as the means of establishing the will of the Scottish people.I also think that Kate Forbes suggestion that we work hard to maximise the pro independence vote makes a lot of sense.Additionally,we do need to look at how the international community can be persuaded to support the independence movement.There is much work to be done.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Unfortunately the international community will never accept UDI after a majority of seats are won at an election.
      That's just the reality..

      Delete
    2. If you mean we need a majority of votes and not just a majority of seats, I'd agree with that. But a de facto referendum has got nothing more to do with "UDI" than a conventional referendum would.

      Delete
  7. Anon at 10.40am: not being a legal expert, I'm not entirely sure whether your comment overstepped the mark, but it seemed possible it might have done, so out of caution I haven't published it.

    ReplyDelete
  8. And as for Anon at 10.54am, you seem to be on day release from Pravda.

    ReplyDelete
  9. A poster dares to post something mildly critical of Sturgeon on WGD and the obnoxious tosser called Alec Lomax claims it is me. Not me ( as if I would be as mildly critical as per that poster) - I tried to post on WGD years ago when numpties were saying someone else was me to correct them but never got past moderation. Never tried since.
    This is the Lomax who encouraged WGD numpties to post on SGP as anonymous posters and his snidey one liners have popped up on SGP as an anonymous poster regularly.

    Kavanagh has certainly corralled a right bunch of Looney Tunes btl.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Next poll should be interesting [if done fairly].

    ReplyDelete
  11. The only way independence will progress is for a majority vote for independence to happen. Sturgeon could have gone for that in May 21. Sturgeon was a time waster who never intended to deliver any sort of referendum. So sorry James I have to disagree with your comment "If Ms Sturgeon had held her nerve...." She conned Salmond and conned most of us for varying time periods. Some numpties still worship her - idiots. Sturgeon is a nasty piece of work and has exited the scene leaving one almighty mess.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Spot on... although I sometimes think that she lost her nerve when May said now is not the time - and she realised she had no answer to that (because she had no real idea of how to get independence). Covid was her saviour, made her look good but she wasn't, someone has to be best out of four. She was a disaster for the yes movement.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm with IFS, I don't believe Sturgeon ever had the 'nerve' to push for independence. She was a fraud, pure and simple, and even some of the more sentient inhabitants of the Dughoose are starting to realise that. The SNP is circling the plughole of history, sustained only by the support of self-id fascists, deluded simpletons like Lomax and outright nutters like Skier who don't have independence as their primary interest.

      The tragedy is it will take years to undo the damage she has done to the cause. The chance of any new party like Alba breaking through with the electorate is slim even under PR. It may have been a 'once in a generation' referendum after all.

      Felix

      Delete
  13. Robin McAlpine's latest piece out today, is pretty much bang on the money about what the SNP need to do and probably right about the face that they are going to do none of it until its too late.

    I mean even skier is starting to edge his bets and if your loosing the confidence of SNP disciples like him then you really are in trouble

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In what way is he hedging his bets? Anything less than his slavish loyalty to the SNP leadership of the day would be the news sensation of the year.

      Delete
    2. Actually, do you remember Skier's tiresome stunt two years ago of demanding a £20 refund from money he had put in to my fundraiser several months earlier? I refused on a point of principle, because I couldn't be expected to hold the money in reserve for months or years just in case everybody suddenly demanded a refund. But he insisted that because the SNP were offering refunds on request to people who had donated to the ring-fenced referendum fund, and because the money was woven through the SNP accounts and thus fully available for refunds, I was honourbound to operate in the same way. I think it's about time we heard from Skier exactly how the SNP could ever have refunded the full £600,000 when they only had a small fraction of that left in the bank. Pointing to a few very small goodwill refunds does not really address that point.

      Delete
  14. It's absolutely sickening listening to all these SNP people (Jim Fairlie/ Yousaf) and WGD numpties going on about innocent until proven guilty re Sturgeon, Murrell and Beatie but were happy to condemn Salmond before and after his trial when he was acquitted. They even removed Salmond from the official SNP history. The only leader who had an independence referendum. Where were these cowards then with their innocent until proven guilty. Sturgeon even used her position as FM to traduce a jury and imply Salmond was guilty. It's enough to put you off the SNP for life. Disgusting people in a disgusting party. Lots of whitabootery also going on about the Britnat parties. They are also disgusting parties but why anyone thinks that should excuse the SNP is beyond me.

    If you assume the leadership election result was not pochled then the SNP membership had the choice before them to turnaround the SNP but chose Sturgeon continuity. Not a word about independence in his statement by Yousaf. The SNP is not only a devolution party it is a dodgy nasty party being part controlled by ugly bampot Greens.

    ReplyDelete
  15. I can't believe the utter rubbish they talk on WGD - what is wrong with them? why the anti Salmond stuff and the Sturgeon is some kind of Evita stuff? Madness. Perhaps James you could start a 'In the Kennel' service for all of us who try to respond to the garbage they spout but are moderated out.

    ReplyDelete