"You are comparing apples & pears. To win independence we need considerably more than 50 per cent of people to vote for it. That's not the same thing as trying to win elections, where you don't need to do that. Policy is probably actually less important than tone right now."
I'm not sure if anyone can make sense of this, but I certainly can't. There is, in fairness, a distinction between the winning posts in referendums and elections, but it's categorically not the one that Councillor Hunter identifies. In a referendum, you need a simple majority of 50% plus one vote, whereas it's possible to win an election on a minority of the vote. But you don't need to secure "considerably" more than 50% to win a referendum, unless of course you've artificially added a needless and anti-democratic supermajority rule, of the type that has only ever been used once in the UK - to notoriously rig the 1979 devolution referendum. Is that what the SNP are proposing? If so, it contradicts decades of party policy - they were quite rightly opposed to the 40% rule in 1979, which it's sometimes said permitted the dead to be counted as No voters (a bit of an over-simplification but there's a grain of truth in that). They were also quite rightly adamant that the 2014 independence referendum had to be decided by a simple majority.
There's a very good reason for opposing what George Robertson called "a fancy franchise", and to understand why, you only need to think through the ramifications of more people voting Yes than No in any indyref, and then the returning officer declaring that Scotland has voted against independence. That's not exactly a recipe for stability or for 'losers' consent', and nor should it be, given the obvious demonstration that some votes are more equal than others.
Councillor Hunter's hints about rigging the franchise (and doing so, eccentrically, in a way that would make it much harder for what is supposed to be her own side to win) need to be seen in the context of another recent tweet in which she adopted strikingly unionist rhetoric in saying that the public didn't want an indyref in the near future, and that the onus was on anyone who wanted one to change people's minds. Er, isn't it supposed to be the SNP themselves who want independence, and a referendum to bring independence about? If there are any minds needing to be changed (there aren't, incidentally, because the mandate has already been won), isn't it the SNP's job to change them? And if they show no interest in meeting that challenge, and if they seem almost more comfortable when they can claim that the challenge is going unmet, doesn't that begin to call into question whether their support for independence and an indyref is anything more than nominal?
It's difficult to know what to make of this, because Councillor Hunter is known to be close to the SNP leadership, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that these are just personal views. But if by any chance she's vocalising the views of the leadership, it's deeply, deeply concerning. It would suggest to me they're looking for evergreen excuses to say "now is not the time for a referendum" no matter how much time elapses. 48% Yes in the polls? "It's not a majority." 51% Yes in the polls? "It's not a significant majority." 55% Yes in the polls? "We need 60%." 60% Yes in the polls? "We need a two-thirds majority. We only get one shot at this."
And on and on it goes into infinity.
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I always thought that the Britnats would try such gerrymandering if there ever was an Indyref2 but for an SNP councillor to be promoting it just shows the current state of the SNP.
ReplyDeleteHunter is a bampot but is Sturgeons bampot. A close friend of Sturgeon who seemed to be very pleased that Craig Murray was imprisoned.
I think we should be aiming for a lot higher than 50%, obviously we only need 50%+1 to win, but the transition will be a lot smoother if we have more folk onboard
ReplyDeleteLet’s face it, these people don’t want independence. The SNP is finished for me.
ReplyDeleteThe Cringe
ReplyDeleteCameron gets 37% of the vote in the UK GE to win the right to hold his EU ref.
The Brexiteers get 52% to win the EU ref.
The cringe is alive and well in Scotland when >50% is not good enough.
The Brexiteers also needed to win a parliamentary majority after they won a referendum. They almost failed completely at the first attempt and had to go again, after being forced to participate in EU Parliament elections.
DeleteThe current parliament might be able to conduct much of the independence negotiations in time for 2026 - IF Westminster is completely cooperative. We all know they'll stall, delay and bluff as long as they can.
The reality is we're facing at least two or three elections, not counting IndyRef2, before the independence process is fully completed. Westminster will attempt to reverse it at every one of them.
The Scottish Parliament does not use a pure FPTP system. If Westminster had a proportional or even a semi-proportional system, Brexit probably couldn't have happened.
Follow-through is important. It's why we do need a bit more than exactly 50% plus one - and every bit more pressures Westminster into giving up faster anyway.
We will hold a referendum at some point. We will have to get on with the result, whatever it is. But there's no point pretending that a low-50s result is as secure as a high-50s result.
The real pretence is "We will hold a referendum at some point". We might do, but that doesn't appear to be the current direction of travel. Nor is it the logic of your own comment, which hints at 'waiting' for an unattainable position in the polls.
DeleteOf course! Unlike every other normal nation Scotland needs far more than 51% support to have a legitimate mandate for autonomy! We're inherently so 'below average' as a people that our individual democratic mandate is only worth c. 3/4 of the standard world citizen.
ReplyDeleteEven the otherwise sane figure of Prof Danny Dorling has said something similar. He has stated that he would prefer to see the barrier set for Scottish independence at 66%!
A reminder that Yes to independence was 55- 58% for quite some time in the polls. What did the SNP do - SFA that's what.
ReplyDeleteI think you can disregard much of any politician's argument the moment they think they are speking on behalf of the public. Put it to the test if you really want to know what the public thinks.
ReplyDeleteI agree 50% plus 1
ReplyDeleteIs a majority and democracy must win in such an event otherwise we will be back doing it all again in the near future as it will run on....
If the Yoons argue that we need much more remind them that they took us out of the EU and a hard brexit and no confirmatory referendum with only 51.89% UK overall win in 2016 (ignoring SCO and N.ire results)
The bar therefore has been set, it's a simple majority anywhere between 50.01% to 51.89% is a win