But the Tories' problem goes further. They spent the entire election campaign telling the electorate that a vote for Labour was a vote for an independence referendum next year. Labour's actual position was a bit convoluted, but they certainly accepted the principle that the Scottish Parliament could vote to hold an indyref - albeit not, for some unspecified reason, until 2021 or later.
Labour received 19% of the Scottish vote on Thursday. In combination with the 45% who voted SNP and the 1% who voted Green, that means a grand total of 65% of Scots voted for parties who accept that a referendum can be held if there is a mandate for it at Holyrood level. Only 35% voted for hardline unionist parties opposed to a referendum under all circumstances.
Incidentally, the SNP won 81% of Scottish seats on Thursday. No other party in living memory has ever matched that (apart, of course, from the SNP themselves in 2015). The closest was Labour in the Blair landslides of 1997 and 2001, when they took 78% of Scottish seats.
And the SNP's 45% share of the Scottish vote has only been exceeded twice since 1970 - once by the SNP themselves in 2015, and once by Labour in 1997 (when they took 45.6%).
Yet another mandate for indyref2
ReplyDeleteKnickerless is claiming to speak for me. Says we are being kept in the Union. Wasted my time then going to the polling station 2014.
ReplyDeleteYou have been humiliated by the crack troops of President Jamez, you dog.
DeleteScotland is still in the UK.
DeleteAnd I am still wearing a hat, a trusty homburg purchased during my raffish days in Vienna. Glorious memories of coffee at Demel's and the Central. Dashing through the snow in a fiacre around the Ring. Chocolate brandies as one ascended and descended the Riesenrad, captivated by vistas of the Danube leading to the unknown, and mayhap unknowable, enigma of Czechoslovakia and the Iron Curtain.
DeleteYes wank, In a way you did.
DeleteWasting even more time posting your diarrhoea on here.
DeleteWhat peculiar ideas you have about the way democracy works, GWC. Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis, old chap!
DeleteEjfj, a resonating call as though from my sorely lamented and much missed colleague Brian Sewell. A glimpse into a world peopled of taste, delicacy and finesse. A world sadly vanished since the Americans were allowed to erect a hamburger establishment on the Champs Élysées. Où sont les neiges d'antan, mon vieux? À bientot... À toute à l'heure...
DeleteWhat would be helpful from the Labour Politicians (MSP's) is a pledge that come the 2021 Holyrood election they will stand on a platform for another indyref.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying vote for Independence, but just on the principle of holding another referendum.
Let's get that pledge in now, as a banker.
Remember, Alister Jack Tory Scottish secretary has already opined that if any 'collusion' takes place between parties and candidates in the 2021 election then basically, the games a bogey and no Indyref will be forthcoming For him, it has to be a straight SNP majority victory like 2011.
This nettle needs to be grasped soon, if not, greater restrictions will be imposed by the Tories as time passes.
I know everyone wants to sort out an Indyref now, but you have to plan for the 2021 election
Here's the quote from Jack as quoted from the Institute of Government's new paper 'A second independence referendum' (it's taken from The Scotsman)
DeleteThe current Scottish secretary, Alistair Jack, has also conceded that “the democratic mandate for a Section 30 Order is a matter for 2021.” In his case, he has argued that the SNP would need to win a majority by itself and “not in collaboration with other parties, not in any alliances”.
Jack has no democratic mandate in Scotland. He needs to go away and shut up.
DeleteHe's an irrelevance. You'd be as well off listening to the views of Jack from On the Buses.
DeleteForget what Jack or any other Tory says. The voters have just resoltely rejected them, again. They won't be setting the terms for the next referendum. So, they need to be shut down at every turn. It's not up to them.
ReplyDelete'Forget what he says, then shut them down at every turn'
DeleteEh ?
The deep racist hatred the English Tories have for Scottish people is really oozing out now. It's not just Muslims they are institutionally racist against. It's basically anyone who's not white English.
ReplyDeleteJohnson has the chance to be a great statesman. A defender of democracy. He's be wise to take that. Cameron knew the only way he could save the union was to let Scots freely choose it.
And I'll keep saying it... Never in the history of civilization has democracy / freedom ever been repressed 'peacefully'. This always involves violence, with those doing the repressing normally kicking things off (e.g. Spain).
If you take away people's right to vote, they'll rightfully try to take it back. So you will need to use force soon enough to stop them doing that.
If Scotland can't freely choose independence, then the UK's no better than Iran.
Hitler tried to imprison Scots and take away their right to free democracy. Scots didn't fight and die to stop him only to have England do what the Nazis failed to.
ReplyDeleteMy great granddad was gassed in the trenches so Scots could freely choose independence. No English Tory nazi is going to take that choice away.
This should be said again and again and again until a Section 30 is granted.
It's utterly appalling that there is even any discussion about this.
Maybe GWC can move south to be with the rest of the WC In England who voted for Boris.
ReplyDeleteShe's like the sort of woman who falls of chairs in restaurants and tries to blame the waiter and then tried to do him for sex assault. That's your GWC - Lady Marmelafe.
DeleteAs a former Labour supporter, I had and still do have, great sympathy with their argument that the working class nerds to stick together to defeat the right wing.
ReplyDeleteThat sympathy disappeared on Thursday night when the working class of England voted for Boris Fn Johnson.
The Labour Party are at a crossroads North and south of the Border, there will still be those who put their faith in the national party. Labour in Scotland can take a lead, are they up to it?
Why the hell does anyone in Scotland support British Labour in Scotland. Show some gumption. Blair even stole a large chunk of Scotlands waters. Stealing our waters stealing our resources.
DeleteIt is an outrage that if you look out from the coast in Fife you are looking over English waters according to Blair and Dewar. When that happened not one person in Scotland should have ever voted for Labour again but here we are 20 odd years later and 18% are still voting Labour. Pathetic - are you Scottish or just some slave to Westminster. No respect.
I think the "stealing our waters" is a red herring.
DeleteAs I understand it, the old marine border was a crude notional line going west-east at the point where the border meets the sea. It was never envisaged to be a national or international border (as some of the old borders of USSR states, or even the NI/RoI border).
As I understand it, Dewar and Blair realised this would not be fit for purpose if ever trying to create a "watertight" (sensible/meaningful) border in the new devolved situation. So they amended it to be more in line with international practice, so it now heads more like to the north-east rather than to the east.
If you look at it on a map it looks not unreasonable. The fact that eventually somewhere in the middle of the North Sea, part of English waters is opposite Fife, is not really a big issue.... any more than people from Newcastle would worry that a bit of sea offshore was Dutch or German sea territory extending unexpectedly north.
The most important thing is that where the current line is drawn is where we would expect the international border to go following independence, that would be recognised by the international community. It seems to me that it is one less thing to worry about, than if the old line had been there.
Blair and Dewar were I think accused of rushing things through and hushing things up, which certainly looks dodgy, but my hunch is that they did this to avoid a distracting issue that could have delayed or derailed devolution. For now I give them the benefit of the doubt.
The acid test is to ask why the SNP are not complaining about it. They must be satisfied that we have credible, internationally recognisable sea borders, ready to fall into place upon secession.
Sadly, the size of the Tory majority is directly proportional to the length of the unemployment queues. The bigger the majority, the more on the dole.
DeleteThing is, there isn't any safety net now. God help us when unemployment rises. There will be nowhere for these people to go. The foodbanks are already struggling.
Lurker no more
DeleteIt's very nice of you not to be concerned but a lot of Scots are. The acid test should have been why did people continue to vote for Britnat Labour after this dodgy move. You sound like a Labour apologist to me. If it was ok to change the border on the east coast why was it not done on the West coast. If we are all a family of nations or one country why even bother doing this at all. Not convinced of your argument.
The Tories seem to be wriggling unconvincingly. They said the union was on the ballot, while a vote for Labour (as you say) would allow indyref. Now they wish to forget that the union was on the ballot, or that there are Labour voters who are relaxed about independence.
ReplyDeleteAye, I am thoroughly enjoying the Tories wriggling. You would need to be visually impaired and even then they might have produced braile versions of their "manifesto" for Scotland.I received a leaflet through the door from the Tories and it had in big capitals "SAY NO 2 INDYREF 2" "A VOTE FOR THE SNP IS A VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE" and then only the Tories can stop it etc.
ReplyDeleteThey failed miserably on Thursday.
If the Tories have a mandate to 'Get Brexit Done' with 43percent in England ; then we most definitely have one for holding a referendum with 45 percent.
Things do get interesting and I've noticed that the Yes.Scot petition is now close to 500k signatures. Some interesting and promising sounds from not former or one time Labour members or politicians, but current ones.
I have a feeling the indyref request will end up going through the courts.
Why not start a crowd fund to give some lawyers a few bob to have a sympathetic Scottish judge overturn the law. Unfortunately for you Nat sis the Boris majority has fooked ye.
DeleteThe Scottish Nat sis will have to obey the laws unless you want to do a Sinn Fein IRA job and start murdering innocent people. You could do the sensible thing and reapply to joint the EU if you get independence. You will of course have to explain the costs to the Scottish taxpayer in the event of this happening.
Says the clown who voted for the party led by an unapologetic IRA supporter.
DeleteGWC dropped another big smelly one Britnat turd.
DeleteThroughout history the one thing that has shone through is that government can't suppress the will of the people. If Scotland wants independence, and the majority support, it then it will happen...
ReplyDeleteWait till the naysayers on Scottish Independence get wind that right now in Westminster the discussion over Boris's billions to the NHS don't include social care because that's going to be privatised out to Insurance companies, if you're old and you need care in England you're going to have to buy Insurance
ReplyDeleteThere's another aspect to this story in that Scotland's taxes will go to the NHS in England but not to social care which means the consequentials from spending returned to Scotland to be spent on our NHS social care will be less because England will have changed their system
This isn't just a rumour this is a Boris Johnson fact
Scottish NHS is devolved. Care for the elderly was initiated in Scotland by the Lab/Lib in Holyrood. The English/Welsh/NI services have nothing to do with Scotland.
DeleteFunding for care services in Scotland, Wales and NI is based on the English spend on care services.
DeleteI remember a British soldier who had in an accident his toes on both feet cleanly cut off. He was discharged but fought and won his appeal because he could still take part in NATO exercises.
ReplyDeleteThe Scots regiments have fought proudly alongside their comrades from all the other home nations through two world wars many other conflicts.
DeleteTo refuse a section 30 is to turn English guns on the Scots, Welsh and N. Irish.
Does England really want to repeat what it did in Ireland?
I still remain hopeful sense will prevail and the peoples of the isles will remain friends, parting amicably if they wish to go in different directions.
If they wish to go in different directions and not forced upon them the results of the ballot box respected.
DeleteOn another note have the Scottish Nat sis costed leaving the UK and rejoining the EU. The tax payer needs to know. The Nat sis failed to inform on many things during the 2014 debate. Flag waving may be a Nat si culture now but real people need tae know the score.
There is no plan to force anything on anyone. They will simply be asked to indicate a preference. Just like last Thursday but even easier. It wasn't that hard was it, putting yer wee x in the box was it?
DeleteIt was not. However I recently heard a radio interview with Knickerless on regarding the EU fisheries policy. She said that she has never liked the policy and wants to renegotiate it. The EU will never renegotiate this and she knows it. She is lying.
DeleteLeaving the EU will give her what she does not really want.
GWC. If aliens landed, you could speak to them in honest but hidden ways. You could say they are talking eyewash because your eyes have been washed and you can see the truth. You could say they are talking poppycock, but the Poppy is for out remembrancing displays and the cock is the strong bird in the farm. Get it?
DeleteLeaving the EU will give her something she doesn't want? Perhaps that's why she has campaigned to remain?
ReplyDeleteMore high quality trolling diddums.