(Click screenshots to enlarge.)
In the Catalan independence referendum, 2,044,038 people voted in favour of independence, out of a total registered electorate of 5,313,564. That means 38.5% of the electorate voted for independence - a slightly higher percentage than Leave achieved. It would of course have been even higher if Spanish police hadn't stolen votes, closed polling stations, and used violence to prevent people from voting.
In fairness to Kenny, I saw the fake Sturgeon tweet when I did a Google search last night, and although I was dismayed by it, for just a split-second I thought it might be real. It was the "to be clear" that did it - that sounds like Sturgeonesque language. But when I thought about it I quickly became suspicious and decided to check, because I realised that an explicit rejection of the mandate for independence would have directly contradicted what she has been saying for weeks. It tells us quite a bit about Kenny's fundamental misreading of the SNP that he didn't become suspicious about a tweet like that, even after reflection. In reality, given the strength of feeling about Catalonia, there were only really two options open to the Scottish Government - either offer a symbolic "recognition" of Catalan independence (even though a non-sovereign country like Scotland has no power to recognise a state), or just opt out of the problem by neither recognising nor disputing the independence declaration. They've gone for the latter option - I'm not sure that will be enough to satisfy most SNP members, but I can certainly understand why they've done it.
Suicide Britz
ReplyDeleteThe dangers of letting an idiot out without their carer.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile in another place english imperialist and all round racist deller of dogfood, kelvine vague aka #kevverage is happily broadcasting rants about the evil Salmond wearing an official PoppyScotland poppy badge. What a lovely little bigot he is.
Has he managed to explain via an excel graph how £4,000,000 of Scottish spirit duty manages to be accounted as english revenue by HM treasury?
Could folk please stop this 'without a carer' stuff. My big lad is 25 and has lots of autism, he can't go anywhere safely without his committed and talented carers.
DeletePeople with learning disabilities were once called idiots but I hope we had moved on from that.
The person you refer to may be many things including a misinformed clown but there's really no need to slur fellow citizens like my boy who just happen to be who they are.
First time I've ever posted on any forum like this, I normally just pop by and read.
Sam some people could be offended by being called a misinformed clown!
DeleteYour fine son perhaps would maybe wish his father obtained a sense of humour. There is such a thing as intention and I doubt the poster above had any intention to offend.
Serious question: is " carer" a commonly used word over there?
DeleteYou should try calling KF Farqs like his girlfriend Ruth Davidson. Might get him to pay attention.
ReplyDeleteI see the UN has just come out against the Spanish government but just a bit short of recognising the independence declaration. It certainly should embolden those who favour the "self-determination" angle on Scottish independence and strengthens the mandate of the Scottish Government for our second referendum. I certainly hope the FM will take her lead from this statement and say something along the lines of "like Catalonia, Scotland is a nation with no official international standing and so we are not able to formally recognise Catalan independence. However, we do recognise the legitimacy of the current Catalan government and we call on Spain to follow the appeal of the UNHCHR to withdraw its suspension of Catalan autonomy and enter into dialogue with the Catalan Government as soon as possible." I think something like that covers all bases and sends the right signals without doing anything that's too risky politically.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22295&LangID=E
Thanks for that link Kenny, most interesting, especially how the right to self determination trumps territorial integrity and how the latter only applies to outside incursions and invasions.
DeleteThe UN is a cabal of corrupt nations funded mainly by the USA.
DeleteYou're welcome!
DeleteThanks.
DeleteI'm glad to hear that OHCHR agrees with my assertion (if I could remember where I made it, I'd tell you) that the right to national self-determination trumps territorial integrity, which has to do with incursions from outwith national territory.
DeleteSpain signed up to the right to national self-determination back in 1945 when it signed up to the Charter of the United Nations. The fact that it has been honoured more in the breach than the observance is irrelevant, really: flouting a principle for years is no justification for keeping on doing it.
The corollary is that because the Spanish Constitution of 1978 was written while Spain was still (nominally) signed up to the right to national self-determination - so it's the Spanish Constitution's denial of that right that is at fault, not the Catalan people's using their right to national self-determination.
To the Usual Suspects here and elsewhere who contend that the right to national self-determination applies only to former colonies, I say - point us to the bits of international law that say that the right to national self-determination doesn't apply to everybody.
On a more general note, I am fed up having the burden of proof put on me, on us, to 'justify' our desire for independence, for national self-determination. Really, I have had enough of it, and I bet most of the rest of you have too.
Particularly after the Rajoy regime's treatment of Catalunya, I think we need to say to our Usual Suspects - no. Enough. It's your turn. Go on, justify denying us our rights, denying us what we voted for. What's your excuse? It's about time we had an apology out of you, actually...
Gives an excellent insight into K F's mindset regardless of whether he was fooled or not.
ReplyDeleteI hope Kenny never takes up proof-reading; the account he was fooled by uses the name Nicola Sturgoen - twice.
ReplyDeleteA motion is being put before Holyrood to recognise Catalonia's Independence.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt it is a Nat si who would attempt to interfere in a sovereign state. Any motion should be ignored. The disgruntled Nat sis have nothing left to moan about in Scotland so they turn to Spain.
DeleteIt is unlikely that Scotland will ever negotiate to get into the EU but if they do Spain will bite them in the bum.
Less excitement, more thought, might be in order. Why do you think Ada Colau, radical left-wing mayor of Barcelona, who took part in the referendum at the start of October, says that UDI is illegitimate and Puigdemont does not have a mandate for it? Why was Puigdemont against UDI late Thursday morning and for it early Thursday afternoon, when he saw the danger of a split in his own party? Do you think he has any strategy? The only visible one is to provoke Madrid, hope Madrid behaves stupidly, and then see what happens. But the farce could turn into a tragedy and people playing at UDI could become irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteWhen my own country declared UDI in January 1919, we meant it. I'm not sure Puigdemont does, quite apart from the question of a mandate.
A final point: support for the right to self-determination is not the same thing as support for separatism (and, for example, the establishment of a border between Aragon and Catalonia for the first time in over eight centuries).
Well, there's been a border in place between Scotland and England for a wee while now, and people are in the habit of driving straight through it... there's a border between the state of New York and the state of New Jersey, and the rates of sales tax are different depending on which one you're in, but they don't stop the PATH trains to make people go through customs and immigration.
DeleteCurrently, people regularly and constantly travel between France and Spain and Portugal without let or hindrance, with no checks at the borders... unless they go through Andorra, which isn't in Schengen, or something... and unless there are security people keeping an eye out for terrorists. Common customs area, freedom of movement - you don't need either customs or immigration when you've got those.
Europe is all about taking down borders. The limited reintroduction of controls in the wake of terrorist attacks has proved extremely costly - which is what people like me have been saying all along: holding up and discouraging trade is something you pay an economic price for. Duh.
There already is a border between Catalunya and the roSpain (and the roFrance, according to some), but unless you watch out for the road signs to tell you, or notice the change in language, you can cross it at any time and in any direction while being completely unaware of the fact. I expect there are people who cross the border when they go between their living rooms and their bathrooms...
There is no reason for that to change, unless someone decides to get all stupid and jingoistic, intransigent and bloody-minded about it, and who in their right mind would do that? You would have to be some tinpot regime of fascist fools, wouldn't you, really, to want to inflict that sort of cutting-off-own-nose, idiotic, self-inflicted damage...
Ada Colau is entitled to her views, but by voting blank on October 1st she was in a tiny minority. The mandate for independence speaks for itself. And by Puigdemont's "strategy", do you mean his political strategy? If so, your criticisms are a nonsense given that his opponents are prepared to use violence to achieve their objectives.
DeleteMy criticism of Puigdemont's strategy is "a nonsense"? But you don't say why, James. Just before Puigdemont's press conference on Thursday lunchtime, two members of his parliamentary party announced their resignations, because he had agreed to back off on UDI and call elections. One of them tweeted his resignation less than ten minutes before the press conference. P panicked at the prospect of a split in his own ranks and changed his mind. That's no way to decide something so important. He had, by the way, spent the previous two weeks refusing to clarify whether or not he had already declared UDI. Nothing there suggests a clear strategy.
DeleteThe decision to have an anonymous vote in the parliament was weird too. The people who set up their own parliament in Dublin in 1919 were proud to make it clear what they were at. The majority in the Catalan parliament (three parties who did not, between them, win a majority of the votes in the last Catalan election) has been playing games - possibly with people's lives.
"My criticism of Puigdemont's strategy is "a nonsense"? But you don't say why, James."
DeleteAh, I see where you're going wrong here - you didn't bother reading the end of the sentence. More than happy to repeat it for you, old chap. "If so, your criticisms are a nonsense given that his opponents are prepared to use violence to achieve their objectives." What sort of 'strategy' do you propose to deal with Spanish state violence? A military strategy - is that what you mean? If you're gagging for a civil war, I think you should drop the weasel words and spell that out.
Your position is shameful. "Separatism" is OK for your country but not for others? Come off it.
Good grief! So much heat, so little light! I expected a calmer debate. For what it's worth, I think that the Catalans (like the Scots) have the right to secede if they want: they should have a proper referendum, like you had in Scotland. I agree the Madrid government is unreasonable in not granting that. Furthermore, I think Madrid's behaviour on 1 October was wrong and stupid.
DeleteBut that doesn't let Puigdemont and Co. off the hook. They have been messing around with stuff that is potentially very dangerous - and have not shown any signs of having a coherent strategy.
It is not only the Partido Popular or Ciudadans who have criticised UDI: Podemos has, and Ada Colau and her new party have too, as has the Spanish Socialist Party. The strongest criticism I've seen of Puigdemont came today, at a massive rally in Barcelona, from Francisco Frutos, former leader of the Spanish Communist Party, in a speech in Catalan.
My references to my own country were to make the point that this is serious stuff, not a game. The people who declared my country independent knew what they were doing. They were serious and they were prepared to face the consequences. That is not an argument for warfare in Catalonia: absolutely the last thing I want to see.
Let's see what happens in the elections... And if the separatists get a majority vote (something they have never done until now), they will have a good case for a proper referendum. And they can campaign for that. It would take time, but it is a better strategy than UDI at the toss of a coin (tossed sometime between 12 noon and 1.30 pm on Thursday).
"I think that the Catalans (like the Scots) have the right to secede if they want: they should have a proper referendum, like you had in Scotland."
DeleteRight, now we're getting somewhere. Now you have to explain how the Catalans *actually exercise* that right to secession if Madrid refuses point blank to allow a "proper" referendum. I can't see an alternative to UDI following a Yes vote in a consultative referendum and then an absolute majority in a parliamentary vote - which is exactly what's been done.
As this is "serious stuff, not a game", I look forward to you providing a serious answer to my question. Because I'm sure you understand, somewhere deep down, that "they have the right to secession if they have a proper referendum, but a proper referendum is illegal and they need to obey the law" is not a serious answer, and will not become a serious answer no matter how many times it is fatuously repeated.
Incidentally, will you please stop embarrassing yourself by insisting that an anti-democracy speech by some communist bod must be taken seriously simply because it was delivered *in Catalan*. (Wow.)
Martin McG, I am sure you are proud your country went into the priest ridden dark ages in the name of freedom and how many non Catholics who were not wanted left your dismal dark country to obtain real freedom? And the cover ups continue. Pass the ointment my bum is sore father.
DeleteIgnoring the troll, of course...I'm sorry, James, that your reaction is so over the top. I stand over everything I have said above, which is the fruit of some thought about and observation of developments. I wish you wouldn't put something in quotes as if it is what I said - it isn't. I did suggest another strategy for those who favour the separation of Catalonia. And I remain convinced that the last few days have shown Puigdemont and Co. to be, quite simply, messers. Messers playing with fire. I may return to the subject again, but I think I've said most of what I have to say above and I'm sorry (because I have been reading and appreciating your site for some years) that you have reacted so irrationally.
DeleteWindbag Martin McG, I thought you had died recently! Are you back before Christmas? Give us a wee Irish tall story!
DeleteI'm sorry, Martin, but if you were expecting that attempt at condescension to cut any more ice with me than your previous attempts, you are going to be disappointed again. I asked you a serious question, requested a serious answer, and I note you are declining to provide any answer whatsoever. Quite plainly your supposed belief in Catalonia's right to secession is a sham, and perhaps once you've got over your sense of self-importance you'll have the decency (ahem) to explain exactly why you have decided to come here as an apologist for the violent repression of a legitimate exercise in democratic self-determination.
DeleteOf all the causes in the world, what a one to choose.
Martin: Comment deleted. I suspect you have already seen the email answering your question, but if not, check your account. The moderation policy on this blog is a matter for me to decide, not for you, and I'm afraid that will remain the case. You are welcome to post if you engage. You are not welcome to arrogantly throw your weight around in otherwise content-free comments.
DeleteMartin, just pack it in. I've been eager to hear your answer to my question, but no, you are not welcome to post here if all you want to do is whinge about the moderation policy. Stop wasting your own time and mine.
DeleteBelatedly released by ICM,Scottish sub sample from last weeks poll (via a link one of the contributors shared on UKPR) are SNP 40% CON 27% and LAB 24%, relatively consistent with the last full scale Scottish poll. Labour just about treading water, Torys loose a handful of seats (Stirling, Angus and Ayr Carrick and Cummnock all likely contenders) to the SNP
ReplyDeleteI mentioned that ICM subsample on the previous post (along with three others from YouGov and Survation). The figures I gave were slightly different because there were two sets of figures in the datasets, and it was very difficult to tell which should be regarded as the 'headline' numbers.
DeleteJames, my apologies you did. Way ahead of me. Cracking blog. Cheers.
DeleteStill not heard anything from the Nat sis regarding their policies after Brexit. That is not unexpected as they have no policy on anything more so a Scottish currency and a stock market.
ReplyDeleteNo union jacks, no orange order marches, Scottish fitba on the telly, no royal family,no house of lords, no trident submarines, no bbc, no illegal wars...
DeleteIllegal wars are better than legal wars as legal wars are illegal and not legal.
DeleteI love an Orange Wok and Chinese cooking. Orange Trident Submarines are better than green submarines. The BBC is Orange and infested by proddie anti Jocko Nat sis. GSTQ nae Popery and a Nat si free Scotland. Vote Labour and get rid of the two
Call an ambulance I've gone over the edge into insanity. Vote labour
DeleteJockos have demanded benefits are paid in euros when travelling to an away game. The Celik supporters unemployed committee away supporters feel the taxpayer will benefit due to the low exchange rate.
DeleteA Rangers spokesperson said we do not play in Europe .
JTRIG JTRIG
DeleteIs Mr Farquharson a journalist?
ReplyDeleteThe Jocko Nat sis and the Catalonian seperatists have something in common, Greed!
ReplyDeleteThe Jockos wanted all the oil revenues and the Catelonian fash because they are a wealthy part of Spain hate paying tax towards the less wee aff in Spain. Joint scumbags if you ask me. The English taxpayer although they subsidise the Jockos still want Scotland to stay in the Union. That is ffriendship and yet the Jocko fascist preach hatred against their working class neighbour.
We Jockos kneel down and thank you from the bottom of our bare arse for the few baubles you throw our way, the english people are the most generous and fair people on these islands we don't deserve to share them with you. You should let us go and look after yourselves. You will prosper and reach great heights without us holding you back. God save the Queen.
DeleteJTRIG JTRIG
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