Let me just make my own position clear.
I will continue to read Wings Over Scotland.
I will continue to follow RevStu on Twitter.
The link to Wings will remain on the sidebar of this blog.
None of these things should be taken in any way as an endorsement of RevStu's views on Hillsborough or any other topic. When I disagree with him or anyone else, what I tend to do (and this may be a novel concept for certain people on the radical left) is simply explain my own opinion. If you go way back into the archives of this blog, you'll find a long argument between myself and RevStu over the morality of the Hiroshima bombing - he thought it was justified as a way of shortening the war, I thought it was a genocidal war crime. On the whole, it was probably better that both sides of that dispute had an equal and honest airing, rather than one of us going off and trying to get thousands of people to bully the other person into dishonestly retracting their view. Creeping fascism from the bottom up is, in general, best avoided.
Grow up, Jonathan. Grow up.
I think the really important thing for the benefit of the independence movement is if Common Space stirs all this up two days before a general election...
ReplyDelete*rolleyes*
The atomic bombs dropped on Japan were a warning to Russia and nothing to do with shortening the war. You're almost clever so why don't you know this?
DeleteThe Soviet army that has just wiped out the last Japanese army in Manchuria and was poised to invade Hokkaido caused them to surrender.Otherwise why did the USA agree to the Emperor remaining in place when their original terms called for him to be replaced?
You are absolutely correct as to what caused the deaths of 96 people in Sheffield 1989. That could have been me and my sister crushed to death at Hogmanay 96 if people had behaved the same way as the liverpool mob and kept pushing. People excusing them is truly vile.
There's no reason those two things about the atomic bombs would be exclusive.
Delete(But, y'know, I've probably got enough arguments on my plate right now without having that one again.)
DeletePeople entering the Leppings Lane end of Hillsborough had no way of knowing what was happening down the front. Once in - and once aware of the horror of what was happening - you couldn't go back and you couldn't stop either as people behind you were still coming in, unaware of what was happening. It's really quite simple to understand. Human beings aren't psychic. Large crowds need to be controlled by the police - sent through the right gates etc. The police failed to adequately control the influx of people, largely due to an incompetent commander and a prevailing "life on mars" style attitude to policing. There were good cops on duty that day though and their innocence should be acknowledged.
DeleteThe atomic bombings were entirely appropriate given the state of total war we found ourselves in. People can't understand it today - the decadence of modern life has softened them up. But the Japanese had to be knocked out of the war ASAP - to save lives and to prevent Northern Japan becoming a North Korea type hell hole. Truman made the right call.
Deletein what might be a first I agree with Aldo - people being directed by the police to go down a certain way have no ability to know or see how crowded it is further on.
DeleteThose fans shouldn't feel guilty - yes the folk were crushed by them coming in but they didn't and couldn't know. There only fault was not knowing how incredibly bad the policing was.
Testimony from many fans (including those who were injured and who blacked out on the day) stated that by the time they realised something was seriously wrong and that it was more than a normal tightly-packed football crowd, they couldn't even move their limbs.
DeleteFootball crowds had been conditioned to expect a certain level of tightly-packed crowding. It also only takes a few minutes to crush someone to death in a situation like that. By the time people realised, it was too late.
Also, not sure why refusing to read Wings because of 'Rev' Stu's Hillsborough comments is any different from refusing to read the Sunday Herald because of their tactical voting advice, which lots of people on this blog were swearing to do the other week.
DeletePlease don't conflate my own views with views of other people in the comments section - that's a cheap tactic. I never suggested anyone should stop reading the Sunday Herald, so there's no double standard there.
DeleteI never said that you suggested it! I'm just suggesting that in neither case is it 'fascism'
DeleteIt's a hopeless comparison anyway, because the issue with the Sunday Herald was not their own "advice", but their misrepresentation of John Curtice's words (ie. what they wrongly claimed to be his "advice"). As the saying goes, everyone has a right to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.
DeleteBut SC's comments contain similar misrepresentations. For example, he compared his own experiences in a crowd at the Glasgow Barrowlands (where, presumably, safety limits had not been exceeded) to the crush on the Hillsborough terraces, in an attempt to suggest that simply moving back would have been possible.
DeleteTrying to suggest, as in that piece, that Liverpool fans were corporately responsible for the Heysel disaster wasn't smart either.
I agree with Aldo on the use of atomic weapons to end WW2. Its all very well for us to debate the pros and cons of bombing Japan rather than launching a conventional land-invasion against them (ala D-Day), but I expect after all the allied deaths suffered during the advance through western Europe few had the stomach to repeat it.
DeleteAlso, the USSR was turning its attention to Japan at this time and if it had northern north Japan it wouldn't have withdrawn afterwards. The last think post-war Japan needed was to be carved up like Germany.
We in 2016 are in no way well placed to judge the morality of the Allies in 1945 in using a super-weapon to end a long and bloody conflict.
The atomic bombs saved lives (Japanese and Allied) in the long run.
People cause the deaths of other people, whether intentionally or unintentionally, or on the basis of some sort of rationalisation of expediency, and not just in war. It may be a side effect of the human condition.
DeleteBeing the mechanism for someone's demise is not the same as responsibility for or culpability for someone's death...c/f no sin, venial sin, mortal sin. I think it is a leap to blame the other fans: they had no culpability. Crowd situations are difficult.
I know little about Hiroshima but have read that an issue was the lack of anticipation of (or at least internalisation of) of the effects of the radiation. I know more about Bomber Harris and Dresden.
Stuart is not interested in my opinion, in all likelihood, but I think his comments were ill-judged. It is unfortunate that they have come back to the surface this week. It is also unfortunate that the term c*** for some remains a very strong swear word, while for others - some of whom I respect - it is a direct substitute for "person", not wholly positive but not quite "cad" or "reprobate" far less "bastard" - maybe so-and-so.
A clarification of the lack of culpability of those caught up in the tragedy directly might do no harm. But it is probably, now, a bittie late in the day.
Well said!
ReplyDeleteI've not met one single person in 72 years with whom I have agreed with on every subject. I will continue to read "Wings" and ignore those who would tell me otherwise. SNP x 2 - until the normality of Independence!
ReplyDeleteI disagree with the Rev over his stance concerning the Gaelic language [I believe Gaelic should be preserved and encouraged at all costs] but as long as The Rev continues to provide such a superb pro-indy website as WOS he will have my support.
ReplyDeleteSNP x 2
Preserving dead languages is fine - provided it's done with private money and the language is not artificially forced on parts of the country where it was never spoken. I think the SNP fails somewhat on those points.
DeleteIt's not a dead language, and was widely spoken throughout Scotland, many place names having a Gaelic root; such as Auchinleck in Ayrshire.
DeleteWell... that's your opinion. And you are entitled to it. Rev doesn't agree. He's entitled to disagree. So... there ye go... that's the good thing about democracy. We all get to have our opinion and get to have our say in public, if that is what we choose to do with it. There are no rights & wrongs in that discussion. As in discussions on the likes of Hiroshima and/or Hillsborough.
DeleteBlogs such as this - and Wings over Scotland, give us the opportunity to articulate our thoughts and gives others the opportunity to examine our opinions and disagree. Even vehemently!! (And - the degree to which someone doesn't agree with someone, still does not take that opinion to the realms of 'dangerous', no matter HOW MUCH someone might think it does!!)
MY thinking is - if it's opinion, discuss it, agree or disagree and then - it ought to stop right there. This article on Common Space was a difference in opinion. No lines were crossed, no 'isms' were violated, no calls for violence, no threats of killing.. And in MY opinion, there was no need to turn it into a dramatic call for a boycott of WoS! Obviously the writer of the article disagreed intensely with the opinion of Rev Stuart. Fine. But to publicly encourage everyone in 'Blog Land' to boycott WoS over a difference of opinion was, in my opinion, really quite childish!! "I don't agree with you and I'm gonna get all my PALS to disagree with you!! AND my pals' pals!! And none of us are going to read you again unless you apologise!!"
Really! Seems to me it comes down to he was being childish - or has an agenda!! Now... we are in the closing stages of an election. I'll put my money on the fact he wasn't JUST being childish... Hmmmm....
WoS does a brilliant job of stripping the flim flam from political agendas. Scotland needs his skill and abilities to deal with the lies, conspiracies & treacheries which the various politicians perpetuate thinking no one in Scotland is watching & listening. Though I read and listen to all the political discussion, I don't do HALF AS GOOD a job as the Rev at dissecting and analysing all that is being said and done in the political arena. I appreciate & need what he and the commentors on the site bring to the election table. So whether I agree with his opinion on Hillsborough or not (and I don't know because I haven't followed that story so not making any snap judgements), or any other opinion he puts out there, I will continue to read Wings over Scotland.
Gaelic is spoken by about 1-2% of the population - all of whom also speak English as well. In fact, Gaelic has no words for anything after about 1700. What's the Gaelic for 'computer' or 'smartphone'? Latin is still widely taught - as is ancient Greek - but the cultural impact of those languages was massive. The same can't be said of Gaelic.
DeleteI suspect there are rather a lot of major modern languages that use the English loanword "smartphone", Aldo.
DeleteComputer came to English via French and Latin.
DeleteYes, languages influence other languages. Accepted. But if a language is needed, is useful, and people wish to communicate in that medium, then it will survive. Public money should not be required. Spend it on Herceptin or heart operations or welfare for some poor bastard in a wheelchair - not Gaelic. That's just an obvious and tiresome nationalist ploy to make us feel culturally different. I know more Spanish than Gaelic - and so probably do the people who put "saor alba" in their social media profiles!
DeleteIt's very uplifting to see these unoriginal thoughts being churned out again. A bit like a verbal equivalent of Mogadon.
Delete~"Preserving dead languages is fine"
Delete"Gaelic is spoken by..."
Therefore, not dead. If people are still speaking it, they should have the right to have services in their mother tongue. Classes in Gaelic to people that don't speak it though, that's a different thing altogether. ..and up for debate.
It is, however, not dead. I imagine you've just not been anywhere where it is the norm to speak it. Probably too far away...
Pretty much dead. Persistent vegetative state, then.
DeleteSorry, I don't agree about the services. They all speak English. There is no need to spend money on translation services and it could be better spent elsewhere - saving lives in the NHS, for example. If the country were awash with money, we could afford to indulge these hicks. But that is not the case.
AldoMay
Delete"Gaelic is spoken by about 1-2% of the population"
Ergo it is NOT dead, it is a spoken AND written living language.
"Gaelic has no words for anything after about 1700." So pray tell me what the English word for smartphone and computer were before 1700 or maybe even before 1950?
You don't have a clue about linguistics. You don't like Gaelic and no doubt Scots as well, because you see them as signs of an independent Scottish cultural difference... and so do I. And I want to see more and more of that.
Aldo May
Delete"we could afford to indulge these hicks." Y
You condemn yourself as a disgusting bigot when you insult people like that, presumably fellow countrymen... or maybe you are just English?
I just saw Drunken Bothersome and a mob of labour annoyancers at the corner of Greenbank. Flee for your lives!
ReplyDeleteI have disagreed with RevStu on a few occasions over a number of issues. I fundamentally disagree with his reported views on Hillsborough, but so what.
ReplyDeleteHe works his socks off for the cause of Scottish Independence and provides an invaluable resource for the independence movement.
As an added bonus he is excellent at calling out some of the elitist posers on the far left, particularly those who demand ideological purity from all supporters of independence.
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ReplyDeleteI have no problem at all with Wings. He is doing a great job and his site is my first port of call for well-researched information. I enjoy reading his Twitter comments and couldn't give a toss if at times they aren't acceptable to some, or ruffle a few feathers.
ReplyDeleteThe virtue signalling around Hillsborough is indeed getting rather tiresome, but what this guy is proposing - a voluntary boycott - doesn't have much to do with fascism.
ReplyDeleteYou're missing the point. The explicit goal of that "voluntary boycott" is to pressurise RevStu into retracting his view.
DeleteI can assure you they're barking up the wrong guy if they think that's going to happen.
DeleteWell, of course it won't happen. For one thing, anyone who was likely to boycott Wings over this was probably already doing so.
DeleteThe article demands that SC retract his "offensive comments", not his view. One example cited is the claim that "the unending, maudlin obsession of the club's fans with Hillsborough for the last 23 years has its root not in anger, but in guilt", which is purely speculative and counter-intuitive (why would fans who weren't involved in the pushing, or weren't at Hillsborough at all, feel any guilt?). It doesn't appear to be asking him to renounce his main thesis, just to take back an insult to those who weren't even in attendance. Calling that "fascism" just debases the term.
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ReplyDeleteRev. Stuart Campbell does a good job without any doubt. He has his faults like the rest of us and I have supported his efforts like a great many others but I see him as an excellent research journalist not some sort of "Mother Theresa".
ReplyDeletePS. Is Rimmer a hologram or some other sort of spook?
I have great hopes for RISE---I hope they lose their deposits on Friday.
ReplyDeleteThey'll have split by Thursday morning into about 4 different factions due to rampant shagging and drunken fights over who was best - Stalin or Trotsky.
DeleteNice, but I'm not sure they have any deposits to lose. Are they actually standing in any constituencies?
DeleteAldo, Rampant shaggin! Are you saying leftie wummin are gullible?
DeleteAldo - probably the first thing you've said I've agreed with. The Left couldna agree on the colour o shite!
DeleteAnd Mr Rimmer can shove it.
keaton, a deposit is required for the list too - £500 per list regardless of the number of candidates, forfeit upon failure to gain 5% of valid votes cast.
DeleteGWC, lefty = gullible.
DeleteAnon - didn't know that, ta.
DeleteSo we have Scotland Votes may 5th? Polls close at what time? Are you on GMT still? Is that the same as UTC?
ReplyDeleteWhen do we get results and where? Other than on this fine blog.
Eurovision is the 10th / 12th and Championship on the 14th? James will be busy! Does he have a TIVO/ dvr ?
JAMES:Eurovision final is on in the States! LOGO Channel , it Is an LGBT channel in the MTV stable. Moderately obscure. Think I get it.
I was wondering this too. I'm going to be abroad on Thursday, so STVPlayer won't work. Anyone know how I can watch the coverage live?
Deletestream it using mobdro etc and a vpn to get past any geo block
DeleteAs a present for James here's a poll, a Euro poll (seven countries), about Eurovision!!
DeleteAll his passions together.
What a bizarre diversion. I come from Sheffield, disagree with the Rev about Hillsboro', from what I've bin arsed to read.
ReplyDeleteStill, never influenced my reading of Wings.
SNPX2
That Anonymous is a sick nutter. The Liverpool fans were herded and then corralled like animals by incompetant senior police officers. Fans were denied entry to the gates in which they had tickets for and sent to the disaster area. The job of the police was to give guidance and they did thus 96 dead. I attended a Scotland England match at Hampden late sixties and ten thousand forged tickets were sold for the Mount Florida end. Just pure luck it was not a disaster.
ReplyDeleteI personally believe the English FA and the owners of Hillsborough should have got done for corporate manslaughter.
Labour wan & twa. Down with fascism and petty nationalism.
You are anti-British then???
DeleteI found myself agreeing with the troll until he turned an otherwise reasonable comment on Hillsborough into a party political rant.
DeleteThere were many reasons for the Hillsborough disaster, Police involvement is just the one the press have chosen to focus on to sell their filthy rags.
DeleteThe real pre-existing problems which allowed the disaster to happen were ultimately outwith the control of the Police.
Well said James
ReplyDeleteWell, here's me about to get banned on yet another Independence leaning web site.
ReplyDeleteYou say:
None of these things should be taken in any way as an endorsement of RevStu's views on Hillsborough or any other topic. When I disagree with him or anyone else, what I tend to do (and this may be a novel concept for certain people on the radical left) is simply explain my own opinion. If you go way back into the archives of this blog, you'll find a long argument between myself and RevStu over the morality of the Hiroshima bombing - he thought it was justified as a way of shortening the war, I thought it was a genocidal war crime. On the whole, it was probably better that both sides of that dispute had an equal and honest airing, rather than one of us going off and trying to get thousands of people to bully the other person into dishonestly retracting their view. Creeping fascism from the bottom up is, in general, best avoided.
It isn't a comfy dispute James, Hiroshima and Nagasaki spelled out the power of any state over you or I. I am fed up listening to anyone, especially an apologist for state actions at Hillsborough, when comparing his opinions to those of Robert Oppenheimer, who said:
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."
Oppenheimer was the lead scientist on creating that bomb.
The Rev Stuart Campbell's opinions on that fade into insignifigance besides his.
Campbell is an idiot on a lot of things, crowd behaviour, power and it's exercise.
I will always wonder whether I really want an excuser for the Police, when 27 years later they are found guilty, or a friend of nuclear houlocaust, supporting me.
He writes well, he writes brilliantly at times, but that does not excuse the rest of his baggage.
In my opinion.
Your mileage may vary.
Me too.
ReplyDeleteAnd his incredibly cheap comment:
ReplyDeleteI think the really important thing for the benefit of the independence movement is if Common Space stirs all this up two days before a general election...
*rolleyes*
You, being a complete bufoon, immediately before the election?
*rolleyes*
There are things I admire about you Stu, unfortunately they are also things I detest about you. You were wrong about Hillsborough, you are wrong about dropping Nukes.
Frankly, you come across as hiding your contemptuous opinions on other matters behind your Scottish Nationalism.
It does not wash Stu.
I doubt there are too many Scots that see Hillsborough the way you do, nor, amongst those that know, Hiroshima nor Nagasaki.
I doubt you have a single bone in your body that is concerned about their deaths?
Prove me wrong!
Oh! Be brave enough to reply here, though |I bet you retreat to your wee gang Stu. It is what you do.
Deletedouglas, aren't you missing the point?
DeleteBy saying "your mileage may vary", you are explicitly not attempting to make others share your reactions; you are doing what James has suggested (disagreeing publicly) rather than insisting that everyone join you in a boycott (which is what Jonathan Rimmer is doing, and what is being criticized here).
Where "immediately before the election" means "three and a half years ago", you fucking imbecile?
DeleteDouglas Clark and your incredibly cheap comments.
Delete"I doubt there are too many Scots that see Hillsborough the way you do"
Frankly I don't think there are many Scots who give much of a fuck about Hillsborough at all. It happened 23 years far, far away in a foreign land and is now of little more than a passing interest to all but Liverpudlians and some unconnected others trying to make names for themselves on the back of a tragedy.
Never read a word he has written since his obscene comments on Gaelic.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that on some things he is brilliant. On others things he is a total wank. Hillsborough, nuclear holocaust, and now add Gaelic. Languages ought to be encouraged. That should be the default. Not so with Mr Campbell! We should all speak Queens English.
ReplyDeleteBut his wee gang will be along in a minute to defend him. From everything. It is what they do.
Stand back!
There will be an explosion!
It is the English language and nothing to do with the Queen although she speaks it well.
DeleteSee, explosion! Though not from the expected source! I imagine Stu is rallying his troops!
DeleteDouglas, please don't feed the troll.
DeleteAs a "wee gang member" I'd like to put in my tuppence worth. I think Rev Stu is wrong on Hillsborough, wrong on Hiroshima (let's not forget Nagasaki, by the way), and wrong about Gaelic. However, I'm not going to stop reading him in case I miss any of the "nuggets of gold" that Stu provides us with on a fairly regular basis - sometimes he is the ONLY provider of these "nuggets of gold" - a great example being today's explanation of the possible effects that a 50% tax rate would have on Scotland's revenues. (Fantastic article, Stu - on something I'd never even thought about). Intelligent readers may disagree with a writer on a particular subject, but they don't throw the baby out with the bath water. As James says.....grow up!
DeleteAlex Birnie
Stupot,
ReplyDelete(But, y'know, I've probably got enough arguments on my plate right now without having that one again.)
What would that be? Hiroshima or Nagasaki?
You are acting as an immoral fool.
It was either justified, your side of the arguement, or it wasn't, my side of the arguement. You appear to be completely convinced that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate.
Expand and explain for the sake of a Scotland targetted by those same nuclear missiles. How that was a good outcome Stu? You really thought about this or are you just making things up? I find most apologists for A-bombing Japan just make things up. Perhaps you are one of them? Or you could explain to anyone still reading, how exactly, anyone in the West of Scotland is in any sense safer after the US went insane?
Give it your best shot Stu.
Over to you.
Do tell, Stu.
I'm not surprised he's ignoring your posts. I've personally learned nothing from them; other than you are a repetitive, boring, and inane attention-seeker. Believe me - I'm being kind.
DeleteFascinating James,
DeleteBelieve me, I am being kind, you are a waste of space. Come with a discussion or stay away. The fact that Stupot can't answer suggests that you have a hollow hero.
Just saying
Put him up. Clearly, he has nothing to fear from me. What with his wit and nuclear bombing and loveable squishing of the dead?
For that is what happened, James. Human beings were squeezed to death in a crowd. You comfortable with that James?
I'm not, and neither should your silent hero.
Best wishes.
Your weak hero is a repetitive, boring, and inane attention-seeker. Look in the mirror mate.
People kill people: in war and in peace, deliberately, through human error, and sometimes just accidentally through a combination of random circumstances or techno malfunction.
DeleteTo look at history in this vein is helpful, but only inasmuch as we learn lessons, including where it would have been better to take a different tack. Not where we use it to batter each other.
James Anderson vis a vis Douglas Clark. HEAR! HEAR! in Spades. I do wish the latter would fuck off elsewhere and take his ridiculous views with him.
DeleteDefend yourself!
ReplyDeleteLadies and gentlemen. There is a very crucial election in 33 hours time. We are all - trolls excepted - on the same side viz our own country.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened in other countries wrt liars in public office, world war outcomes, disasters at football matches, refugees, candidates wigs and submarine orders is not relevant right now.
Stop fighting, get out and deliver voters to the polling station who are going to vote way over 50% for pro independence parties. Everyone should vote SNP on the Constituency, and whoever the hell you want that is pro indy on the list.
We need an SNP majority, a mandate for indy2 and a massive vote of no confidence in yoons.
When we are the owners of this house we can paint the rooms any colour we want. But right now we are quarrelling like lotto winners who never put a line on.
Independence is the goal. I don't care about anything else.
I voted by post. SNP x 2. Now shut the fuck up and get the vote in.
Cameron has signalled there is no mandate for indyref 2 - manifesto wording too ambiguous.
DeleteLatest polls show a modest SNP majority and Greens picking up a limited number of extra seats. It wont be the wipeout predicted. It never could be under PR.
I would also suggest that a blog isn't the best place to encourage people to 'get out the vote'. Some of these guys are lucky if they make it to the local Spar for a loaf.
You are a Nat si fanatic that is why you do not care about anything else. And a bigot.
DeleteDon't feed the troll, folks.
DeleteDouglas, someone was always going to acquire nuclear weapons first and be the first to use them. That the country that did this was America - and not Nazi Germany or the USSR - is such a huge stroke of luck as to be almost evidence of divine providence.
ReplyDeleteJapan today is a wonderful country - streets ahead of us in many ways. That is only possible because we liberated them from their own madness.
Don't give me the monkey, give me Stupot!
DeleteI'm a unionist douglas. I'm not speaking on behalf of "The Reverend". I think the guy is a hate monger, spreader of half truths and killer of political pluralism. I'd see his website taken offline in a heartbeat. But here we are - you, a nationalist, fighting with another nationalist - and me, a unionist, agreeing with him, in some respects.
DeleteIt's refreshing to see this blurring of the constitutional / ideological lines. We need more of it!
Well, I have to go to sleep.
ReplyDeleteStupot is unable to defend himself. His complete untruths about crowd behaviour, his agreement with Neo-Con arseholes on Nuclear Weapons, his views on Gaelic.
Just so's you know. I told him that I had spent a lifetime doing stuff about the election. Never once did I see it being cheated, Had I seen that I would have blown the whistle. Stupot didn't like that comment, it didn't fit with his notions. The whole electoral process must be corrupt, or summat. Persona non grata.
It is up to you James, am I a liar or am I not?
You have given Stu a huge amount of space, yet he has remained silent. Perhaps he should until after the vote because he is adding nothing to it now.
Best wishes.
They wanted to test the bombs on the civilian population. The war was already won. They were not doing it as a threat to Russia. Russia were the wests allies at the time.
ReplyDeleteYes it was mass murder as these were civilians caught up in a war by a rogue government. Then I am a pacifist so I would say that!
Russia were our allies November but we were also very wary of them. We made a pact with one demon to get rid of another.
DeleteThe bombing achieved these objectives:
Ended the war, with minimal allied loss of life.
Prevented communist expansion. Every commie nation is a shithole. We did the Japs a favour - seriously - they are probably quite glad they don't have a 'Dear Leader'!
Warned Russia that America had a terrifying weapon and it would therefore be unwise to push their luck.
From a strategic point of view, flawless. From a humanitarian point of view, acceptable.
Anyone who thinks it's a jolly wheeze to spread hatred about Wings or Stu. Remember something.
ReplyDeleteYour enemy wants to divide you! It's the oldest game in town. The Yes movement is not about you or me. It's about the collective. We stand as one and win or splinter and they win.
It's human nature to splinter. You can't hold it together forever.
DeleteUnionists splintered after 2014. That's why we will win, we are not them.
ReplyDeleteUnionists were always splintered. We are normal people with a range of political views that find expression in different ways.Some unionists even vote for your party! When we withdraw that support and the other SNP voters become restless - and there are many reasons why they will - then it's over. The pro indy contributors on this blog have been laying into each other tonight - what hope you can keep half the population singing from the same hymn sheet?
DeleteTalking of things getting "splintered" - wouldn't it be hilarious of all the Tory MPs currently under investigation for Electoral Fraud
ReplyDelete(28 I believe) were subjected to criminal charges and the Tories were forced to run new candidates in 28 by-elections.
Most of them would be in marginal seats and, after the recent Benefits Defeats and Debacles, Osborne's second OmniShambles Budget and the Panama Papers expose on Cameron and his family, there is absolutely no guarantee that they would win next time round.
And their tiny Seat majority in the HoC is just so.......tiny.
And......if they lost their majority of Seats????????????
Dear, oh dear, oh dear - what a complete mess that would be.
Should have read 24 Tory MPs, not 28.
DeleteFirst of all, pigs will fly first. No court in the land would disrupt the government like that.
DeleteSecondly, even if it were to happen, the tories would win most of those by elections against the Corbynator and his gang of Jew baiters.
Thirdly, even if they lost every one, the Irish loyalists + lib dems would keep them in power.
Tory rule is here to stay! :0)
LOL!
DeleteTory rule is here to stay
DeleteOur Ruthie will have her way
And that will be a beautiful day
Anything else would be gay
Tory rule is here to stay!
A poem by Aldo
Hey James,
ReplyDeleteCreeping fascism is a pretty hilarious way of describing my opinion piece today. By all means, continue to read Wings if that's your prerogative. 'My demands' - at no point do I tell anybody what to do - rather I constructed an argument to why I think Wings is absolutely toxic for the pro-independence movement. A lot of people agreed with that argument. You don't, that's fine.
As I said on my Twitter feed, Hillsborough is an incredibly sensitive subject that I'm incredibly passionate about. I believe it was important to hold Wings accountable in the same way that he holds so many other outlets accountable. I believe that Stu should apologise for his abhorrent views, especially in the light of the evidence last week. Again, I would encourage (not demand...) others to consider whether such a person is worth defending, let alone heralded as a vital media source.
The piece wasn't written with my RISE hat on although that's a bemusing conspiracy on Stu's part. I wrote the piece last week but it was delayed due to the bank holiday weekend rather than it being a calculated attempt to dismantle the SNP's electoral chances (yawn). I'll probably go for SNP in my constituency's first vote anyway, not that that's remotely relevant.
As for the bullying point, it scares me that you actually think that an opinion piece that encourages a boycott = encouraging bullying, especially given it's a piece about a renowned bully in Rev Stu. It would horrify me if anybody would seek to bully an individual because of something I wrote - that's precisely the opposite of the message of the piece. In the same way that I prefer non-violent protest, my response to Wings' Hillsborough stance is to boycott/refuse to read his site, not 'bully' him.
I published the piece fully knowing that a fringe of nationalists would send me some nasty abuse as per (and they did sadly) but decided it was important to publish nonetheless.
As I've stated, you don't have to to agree with anything I say, James. You clearly don't see eye to eye with me. That's fine. I won't tell you to grow up because I'm not interested in a childish back-and-forth (reasoned arguments, fine).
But I don't regret writing that piece, not just because Hillsborough is important to me, my family and a hell of a lot of people I know, but because I think that if Rev is going to be a prominent voice of the pro-independence movement then he must stand up to the same scrutiny that he dishes out to everyone else.
Justice for the 96.
Jonathan
Hmmm. This is quite a familiar-sounding reply, Jonathan - I seem to recall that the last time we spoke on a different subject, everything I said was "pretty hilarious" as well. You claim that at no point did you tell anyone what to do. Let's look at the exact quote -
Delete"I call on the Yes movement to unfollow/stop reading/ignore Wings Over Scotland until he retracts his offensive comments"
If you want to insult our intelligence by splitting hairs over the meaning of the phrase "call on", that's your own affair, but what you were getting at was clear enough.
"That's fine. I won't tell you to grow up because I'm not interested in a childish back-and-forth (reasoned arguments, fine)."
Really? Again, I formed an entirely different impression the last time we spoke - you resorted to a personal insult very, very quickly on that occasion, and it seemed to me you did so because my reasoned arguments were not terribly welcome.
And you know what, Jonathan? It is actually possible for you to "scrutinise" the work of people you disapprove of without trying to silence them. If I may say so, I "call on" you to take that rather more mature path in future.
I'm not splitting hairs over anything, James, you are. The majority of people who read the piece know exactly what I meant.
DeleteI don't recall which personal insult you refer to - I did lose my temper at one point and immediately deleted the tweet and apologised if I recall. I'd say that's a more mature road, but hey, you seem pretty set on digging stuff up.
I personally think a boycott of a publication/website run by an individual that promotes horrific things is mature. The Sun newspaper has been boycotted for 27 years because of their disgraceful stance in Hillsborough. If you don't think Wings should get the same treatment, that's your affair. My views were laid out pretty clear and I've seen several people comment or message to say that they'd had other issues with Wings and reading the piece was the final straw for them. Their reasoning, like mine, is 'mature'.
And for the gazillionth time, I'm silencing nobody. I'm encouraging other people to simply not engage with Wings. It's really, really simple.
Have a nice day.
Just had a brief look at the piece you wrote. You admit that you went out of your way to dig up the past or at least lent a hand with the shovels. There really wasn't any need to do so even if others weren't doing so. Even less if you were the instigator. I suggest you take a good hard look in the mirror and consider what using the Hillsborough as a leverage against someone who is at this moment on one side of an argument about tactical voting says about the depths you're prepared to go.
Delete"Have a nice day."
DeleteI had an absolutely lovely day, Jonathan, so it just goes to show you - insincerity isn't always rewarded.
Congratulations on your success in persuading three people to boycott Wings, by the way. In the immortal words of the Judean People's Front Crack Suicide Squad : "That showed 'em, huh?"
"A lot of people agreed with that argument. You don't, that's fine."
DeleteA FEW might have agreed with you. The usual YOONY loonys and a number of zoomers on the YES side who have always disliked Wings as an incomer taking over their patch. Thank God he did. Without Wings Indy Ref would have been nowhere near 45%.
"I suggest you take a good hard look in the mirror and consider what using the Hillsborough as a leverage against someone who is at this moment on one side of an argument about tactical voting says about the depths you're prepared to go."
DeleteThe piece had absolutely nothing to do with the election.
Sidenote: I voted SNP and RISE today like many other people as I want a pro-independence party majority and would like to see some pro-indy socialists in parliament. :) I did enjoy the RISE/CommonSpace conspiracy theory that popped up on Independence Live, though (which didn't mention Hillsborough in the entire piece). I find it very sad that people would assume my piece was politically motivated when I've openly been a member of the HJC since I was 16.
I care a ton about it, as does my family. To be quite honest, the election was much further down my list of priorities.
Suffice it to say that I will make my own mind up about what I read and who I follow. I'm sure I can safely read the Daily Telegraph or the Daily Mail without endorsing the views of the Barclay brothers or Lord Rothermere. And I can take particular enjoyment in doing so when I haven't paid for either of them, that way I know that none of these odious right wing tax dodgers have profited in any way.
ReplyDeleteCrossed the line on Gaelic.
ReplyDeleteRight James , new topic please , that was a good diversion by Rimmer but this is the eve of a very important election , let's get back to work in hand SNP X 2 .
ReplyDeleteThank god for sites like scotgoespop and WOS. Without them we would be suffocated by the britnat media. SNP x 2
ReplyDeleteJust my opinion but this Rise lot seem to be agitators. Constantly looking for ways to split the independence movement into factions. We all have policies or things that we personally disagree with. However if we jumped ship on evry principal. We would be looking at hundreds of indi parties in Scotland. Sometimes you have to see the bigger picture and let personal differences slide for the common good.
ReplyDelete" Constantly looking for ways to split the independence movement into factions."
DeleteI wonder who would benefit most from that?
It's what Leftie splinter groups always do. Their reason for being is to argue and fight with other leftie groups as to whether Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Lenin or Trotsky were the true believers. Elections are merely their time to fight and squabble hardest to gain media attention.
DeleteHillsborough and Scottish independence have a connection. Working class people, in the North, feeling put upon, denigrated and undervalued by a distant and unfeeling establishment elite.
ReplyDeleteSound familiar?
This is why some Scot Nats are deeply uncomfortable with attacks on the Liverpool fans. They want to stand in solidarity with them - and believe that any attack on them is an attack on the values of both Scotland and Scottish Nationalism.
Says a Tory.
DeleteYes. But being a tory doesn't prevent me observing how other people think about things.
DeleteStand firm! Stand tall! Vote to remove ourselves from the shackles of corrupt Westminster - to do that you must (and Yes I'm telling you. Mr Rimmer) Vote SNP x 2! No other party can get us to our rightful independence. Following independence i'll be voting for what i'll never get as long as we are a colony!
ReplyDeleteIt must be terrible to go through life always thinking of yourself as the victim - in between hearty meals, trips to the pub and foreign holidays!
DeleteAldo
Drivel and historically incorrect. Scotland helped build colonies. We are not a colony. If you say it long enough Nat si people may be stupid enough to believe it. But lies are no stranger to the fash.
DeleteDon't feed the troll, folks.
DeleteYes just tell your lies Nat si bigot.
DeleteDon't feed the troll, folks.
DeleteScotland isn't a colony?? Well, well - how many other nations are ruled by another that are not colonies. How many nations have ALL their revenue taken by another nation and then get about a quarter back? Oh! and Dopey - I did not say Scotland did not help build colonies. All you clown unionists have is looking back into your magnificent, murdering history. Fascists wow????? And to Aldo - there must be millions around the world, who like me, feel they are victims of British benevolence, munificence, murder and of course stupidity.
DeleteYou are British, you dope! And if people around the world despise us, maybe we can cancel the huge foreign aid budget then?
DeleteScotland doesn't get a quarter of its revenues back. We get back all of them, plus another 15 billion pounds on top. Do learn the basics before imposing your vote on the rest of us!
"dope" tut, tut. How very colonial! Do try to answer the points I made and try to understand what brainwashing has done to you. I am British due to the fact that I was born within the British Isles just as a Norwegian is a Scandinavian. Your grasp of the economic facts betrays your interest in the topic of Scotland - none! I feel so sorry for you. The "Scottish Cringe" betrays a serious psychological deficit leading to self-delusion, ignorance, bad manners and ultimately deep disappointment. I am only trying to save you from yourself as you laud "Britain" and it's "foreign aid budget" helps destroy thousands of lives yearly.
DeleteI do not agree with the Rev's views on Hillsborough... That said there is truth in the fact that if they had not rushed in there might not have been a tragedy. But how would they have known? What they did was human, natural and normal. They were not to blame for the tragedy, but they were sadly the instrument of the said tragedy. And that is an unfortunate fact, and one that they will all carry. For at the front people will have known that folk were in distress and dying and yet they will have tried to save themselves or their loved ones. I STRESS this is not their fault!!! But how do you manage "Survivor Guilt", when you know that your body and thousands of others squeezed the life out of your fellow fans, whilst you struggled (rightly) to stay alive.
ReplyDeleteI cannot imagine the horror of the flashbacks for those involved.
There's a few things I disagree with Stu about.
ReplyDeleteThe "fake nurse" story was needlessly intrusive and could have affected the lassies career. It was out of order.
I'm not a fan of bad language.
However, he at least has the gumtion to stand ferociously against some of the nonsense the independence cause has had to listen to in the past. The journos don't like it up them. And Stu has played a huge part in taking apart old arguments.
@Aldo
ReplyDeletePeople entering the Leppings Lane end of Hillsborough had no way of knowing what was happening down the front. Once in - and once aware of the horror of what was happening - you couldn't go back and you couldn't stop either as people behind you were still coming in, unaware of what was happening. It's really quite simple to understand. Human beings aren't psychic. Large crowds need to be controlled by the police - sent through the right gates etc. The police failed to adequately control the influx of people, largely due to an incompetent commander and a prevailing "life on mars" style attitude to policing. There were good cops on duty that day though and their innocence should be acknowledged.
Christ, Aldo's said something on here that I agree with fully. I do not agree with Stuart on Hillsborough. Essentially we are never going to agree on the subject. The lion's share of the blame is solely down to Duckenfield and the other police commanders imo. Some is down to Sheffield Wednesday FC for the fact that the stadium safety certificate had run out years before, and the ambulance service was at fault as well. For me the Liverpool FC fans were not at fault at all for the disaster, the way SYP performed in terms of crowd control the same thing sadly would have happened to supporters of Manchester United, Arsenal, Spurs etc. It is atrocious to know that so many young people perished so needlessly that day.
Duckenfield and co failed to order the formation of police cordons outside the stadium, this would have filtered out the crowd and prevented the extent of the crush at the turnstiles. The turnstiles were in a disgraceful state and completely inefficient and slow. When a crush developed outside the stadium Duckenfield and co failed to agree to postpone the kick off, then ordered the opening of the exit gate without ordering the tunnel leading to the already crowded central pens be closed. In other words, clusterfuck after clusterfuck. SYP are an absolute disgrace of a police force, they disgraced themselves at Orgreave as well. The cover up over more than two decades was somehow even more disgracefully and sickening than the events on the day. To cap the whole disaster and cover up off it seems as though Duckenfield might have been promoted in his local freemasons lodge to grand master a year after Hillsborough. The crowd control by SYP was so horrifically bad, incompetent, and inadequate that it is exceedingly difficult to convey just what a shambles it was.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWell said James. If RISE were chocolate, they'd eat themselves. If they'd been on the Titantic, they'd have been pushing us all out of the lifeboat queue, shouting, 'Me!' 'Me!' 'Me first!'
ReplyDeleteAll very off putting. I hate folks who think they are entitled to anything. Some members of my family were seriously thinking of voting RISE a few months back, but they are firmly SNP/SNP.
I also think Stu should be horse whipped every Tuesday for his truly dire taste in music. It's Harry Secombe's Songs of Praise Album, for me, all the way.
'RISE LIES' sums them up - for me. Shame, really.
Tomorrow is another important step on the road to the return of Scotland's rightful independence and out of the status of being a useful colony for our betters at Westminster. Much as I would like to vote for others of the independence supporting parties I realize that to achieve the Scotland we want we must achieve independence. Imagine - no brainwashing by the BBC,ITV and Sky, our kids being taught our own history and culture, using our money to shape the nation. Only a coward or sycophant (which unfortunately we have a fair few) would want to go on like this any longer especially since there is so much information revealing just how badly we have been treated - like almost all former British colonies! SNP x 2!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteIt does the Yes movement no favors to allow bigoted comments to go unquestioned no matter who makes them. And yes, Stu Campbell does quite publicly and unapologetically make bigoted comments. Does this mean his very useful blog should be boycotted? In my opinion, no, but I blocked him a long time ago for his personal nasty comments and certainly won't change that. It has nothing to do with an election and everything to do with what is acceptable in a decent society.
ReplyDelete
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