I only caught the last few seconds of that, but it sounded like Nicola Sturgeon has firmly chosen the Andrew Wilson magical thinking approach of "persuade and the obstacle will somehow vanish by some unspecified means"? If so, I have to be honest and say that's a mistake.— James Kelly (@JamesKelly) January 31, 2020
Rule No 1: It is impossible, literally *impossible* to be sure of a win before a referendum is called. The really big changes in public opinion (in whatever direction they occur) will happen once the campaign is underway.— James Kelly (@JamesKelly) January 31, 2020
Compared to the 2014 campaign, 51-49 is in "beyond wildest dreams" territory as a starting point. Are we really waiting for unachievable levels of support (like 60% or 67%) before doing anything? If so, the leadership have given up on independence. They just don't know it yet.— James Kelly (@JamesKelly) January 31, 2020
You're missing the point. If we're "learning the lesson from David Cameron" that polls can be wrong, that's an argument for saying we shouldn't call a referendum even if we're 20, 30, 40 points ahead. In other words we can never do it.— James Kelly (@JamesKelly) January 31, 2020
Oh for heaven's sake. There's nothing "illegitimate" about legislating for a referendum and then allowing the Supreme Court to decide whether it can take place.— James Kelly (@JamesKelly) January 31, 2020
Her tone was entirely off caution is fine (up to a point) if you sound convincingly like trying to push things forward. Nicola missed the target today.— Chris ward (@rampitchfork) January 31, 2020
* * *
I have more analysis of yesterday's sensational YouGov poll in an article at The National - you can read it HERE.
my head exploded when the term convention reappeared
ReplyDeleteVery disappointed that she is hiding behind the legal argument. So what of it is challenged? The main thing is to keep the pressure on, not let us down like a deflated balloon.
ReplyDeleteThis smacks of fear - fear of losing? Fear of losing cushy positions at Holyrood? Fear of jail time? People that really believe in independence are willing to fight for it, even risking defeat. It is that important.
This reminds me of the old Labour arguments to persuade working class voters to keep supporting them - "leave it to us, we know best, where else will you go?" The SNP are in danger of repeating Labour mistakes. The focus seems to be keeping MSPs in their cushy positions and maintaining their comfortable lifestyles ans status.
Jeez, the Catalonians were prepared to go to jail. What are our softy SNP politicians prepared to do? Not much, it seems. Still as long as we keep voting for them - for years to come, everything is jolly - right?
You don't take risks, you don;t win - simple.
If I was Boris Johnson, I would throw a curve ball and force the issue - give em their S30, force the issue and watch em squirm. Shhhhhhh - don;t tell im. :)
And ultimately there's no risk whatsoever of SNP politicians going to jail. The criminal offences that exist in Spain simply don't exist here.
DeleteAbsolutely sick of this mince about illegal referendums and going to jail. It is all just Britnat propaganda. Are people too thick to realise that. I have posed the question for years - what law is being broken and where are the penalties for the offences listed. Replies - ZERO.
DeleteThe Catalonians grandparents died in the Civil War at the start of WW2. Not really the same. From the outside it's hard to call. With the Media hating Scots it would seem trying to take the high ground and waiting for Brexity to turn into a mess and weaken Westminster is a legit play. But I get the frustration.
DeleteStanding at 51% right now and where will it be following the Salmond case? We know nought of what's going on.
DeleteShe looked weak in the face of oppression, and failed to face the enemy. What we have is another wait and see strategy.
ReplyDeleteThis is going nowhere I am afraid.
If there is the remotest chance of indy ref 2 happening this year it will not be under Nicola's leadership. She has no intention of delivering it!
Getting the timing right for it is no easy task. Added to that us the question of legality. As Sturgeon said, there is no easy solution. We are in the position of a poker player who has a reasonably good hand but knows that if they go 'all in' before the right moment we could end up losing everything. Her first step of asking the Electoral Commission to test the referendum question is sound and sensible because that would need to be done anyway. After she has their response however, she will need to make some very hard decisions about where she goes from there. I don't think she made a strategical error today. To me it was more like someone who wants to enter the water without diving in head first.
ReplyDeleteIt was exactly what I expected and I agree with the approach. Looking at the chaos facing UK this year....and that is pretty certain....hold is the right approach.
ReplyDeleteThe question of legality is a red herring, an excuse to do nothing. What's to loose if there is a challenge. If the Britisdh establishment mooves the goalposts the Scottish people woyuld be absolutely outraged. The truth is they are not confident they can win it. Unless they have a cunning plan (LOL) they have just handed the initiative back to Boris (and WoS, BTW).
ReplyDeleteI expect a new Indy party to emerge pretty soon. Remeber the tories only moved on the EU following intense pressure from UKIP, BREXIT parties. Perhaps the SNP need a similar kick up the backsides.
At the mo it feels like lions led by donkeys. The indy movement is screaming out for strong leadership. Someone to confront the Scottish "establishment" and force the issue. Who will be our Farage? Our Mr/Miss Brexit?
The Scottish people are sovereign. That was passed last year by the Westminster Parliament without a vote. The Scottish referendum should be to repeal the Treaty of the Union of the Scottish and English Parliaments. This would be entirely legal by international law. No need for Independence.
DeleteTHE Scottish people ARE sovereign. Around 55% of sovereign Scots voted to remain in the UK in 2014 and 50% still want to do so right now. What do you plan to do about them?
DeleteOoops - I menat our Mr/Miss Indy? LOL
ReplyDeleteA damp squid of a speech. Wouldn't inspire me to walk down to the local newsagents.
ReplyDeleteIt is 'squib'
DeleteWe all know the Scottish election next year will be the holy grail .. let brexshit commence .. the shit hit the fan .. dole money stopped, businesses go bust, food costs a fortune, another recession, more austerity etc etc .. then the polling will be around 55/60% pro indy..
ReplyDeleteEven GWC will vote for independence once he realises his PIP payments are being more than halved.
Everything is fundamentally different now.
DeleteWhen the mass job losses begin, these are no longer, ultimately, our own fault / choice as we keep freely picking the union.
Now they are forced upon us by an aggressive, enemy state which occupies our country.
Johnson's arrogance means he doesn't really understand what he's done.
We all know the Scottish election next year will be the holy grail .. let brexshit commence .. the shit hit the fan .. dole money stopped, businesses go bust, food costs a fortune, another recession, more austerity etc etc .. then the polling will be around 55/60% pro indy..
DeleteMaybe. Or maybe the descent into the abyss will be so gradual that people just think "better the devil you know"
I think people need to appreciate the situation better.
ReplyDeleteUnionism has been defeated in Scotland. It’s over. 8 electoral defeats in a row since 2014, with yes creeping up all the time. The last hope was 2017 when they made some gains, only to have these trashed in 2019. The dead cat has had its last bounce.
This culminated in unionism admitting defeat and throwing in the towel; that was our section 30 refusal.
With 65% Yes in the under 49’s and a majority of the whole electorate now backing indy ‘tomorrow’, the UK is over in terms of the ballot box. Yes has won. Unionism is now entering history.
It is no longer Scottish unionist vs indy supporters…Better Together vs Yes Scotland.
It is now Scotland v. England., and that is a battle that can only ever be won by Scotland long term.
An aggressive, unpleasant, racist, increasing fascist England now runs the UK. That is the opponent now.
The game has changed, and so must the strategy. That is now much more about what happens on the international stage in terms of gaining recognition. Much of it will depend on how unpleasant England is to all the neighbours. The campaign on the streets is now to show the world we mean to go for it, and it is our will. The vote itself is already won thanks to England.
England will also soon descend into civil war of a form as trade negotiations begin. This is inevitable when the moon on a stick has been promised, but instead a small steaming turd is delivered. Johnson will have to betray every voter he gained to get a deal. It will not end well. We’ve had the super easy bit of brexit. Now the hard work begins.
In Scotland, indy support will continue to grow and in response, England will become increasingly aggressive. We have various stages to pass through, but eventually it will get to and things like UDI, an SRA etc if they don’t cave in. That’s just how the world works. If the natives don’t want you running their country, you will never sleep easy at night. They will eventually kick you out. Let’s hope it doesn’t get that far though. The SNP will need to be warriors, or other warriors will take their place. Under PR, you cannot rely on tactical voting to keep you in office.
For tonight, celebrate the death of the union, for a permanent Yes majority will be established in the coming months if it is not there already. However, sharpen the claymore too, for England is now an enemy state to be resisted in all ways necessary if it comes to it.
But as noted, understand the game as totally changed. We have won the people of Scotland now. That work is largely done. Next, with her people behind us, we will win her freedom too.
She is right. We wouldn't be talking about another referendum without brexit. Now we need brexit to happen and unfold, so to build support for independence. We don't just need a referendum, we need to WIN it.
ReplyDeleteWe would have won the last one without postal votes and fly by night foreigners and students being allowed to decide the future of a country they couldn't care less about.
DeleteNo votes for anyone not born in Scotland unless they have 5 years continuous residency.
No Postal votes. No votes for english squaddies and holiday home owners.
No talk of illegal votes. Any referendum called by the elected representatives of the people can never by anything other than democracy in action and no law can be allowed to prevent it.
Especially when no such law exists. Can anyone name the exact Scottish law which prevents Scottish people from voting and deciding their own future?
Love to see the joyous face of civic nationalism on full display in these comments.
DeleteAye, next they they'll be overruling elections in other people's countries like true fascists.
Delete2020 will be a shitshow for unionism. Best sit back and watch
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the hard work James. She came to the OK Corral with a balloon full of hot air such as words are, and ran away from the fight. Not so much "next steps" as "run run run run run away".
ReplyDeleteWhat a coward. And I called BoJo "Chicken".
Wow good to hear what you have to say now Yesindyref2. Thanks for the insight you two faced charlatan.
DeleteKeep in mind that the UK is falling apart.
ReplyDeleteThere is a new border appearing the Irish sea tonight. Even the Welsh voted against the brexit bill and are not happy about being a declared a colony of England.
People fail to understand that Johnson's majority is a bunch of crackpot loonies who will all turn on each other as the reality of brexit begins.
Brexit cannot possibly succeed. Even English people don't really want it now. It is destined to failure because it as not built on good intentions, hope and consensus, but hate, lies and aggressive enforcing.
The SNP strategy is correct. When what are laughingly called the trade talks start in Brussels in February England (Global share of GDP <2%) will try and coerce the EU (Global share of GDP >22%) into granting access to the single market without accepting free movement and membership of the Customs Union without regulatory alignment.
ReplyDeleteIt is already been stated the English government's main focus is access for the City of London, Scottish assets and resources are to be exchanged in return. The EU will want guarantees that the English government will still control these so that gives them 2 options:
1. Neutralise or deestablish the Scottish Parliament
2. Grant the S30 and throw the dice
No they won't. You people live in a fantasy world.
DeleteSturgeon confirms a referendum without Westminster approval is illegal and illegitimate.
ReplyDeleteLol. Nobody listen to you on the other thread?
DeleteIt's because you just lie, about everything, all the time.
Enjoy a drink today to celebrate a natural majority for indy and the death of the union in the hearts of Scots.
A new dawn is breaking. Scottish unionism is defeated.
I'm celebrating the new border in the Irish sea tonight at 23:00, with reunification beginning in earnest. 1/4 of the UK still subject to EU law and full free movement! Irish now making laws for NI where England used to. I'm over the moon!
DeleteThe Scots now backing indy is a bonus.
Shoe shining Brit-Jocks can wait outside. It's an English event.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-51324431
Boris Johnson will hold a reception in Downing Street tonight to mark the UK leaving the EU...
...On the menu will be English sparkling wine and a selection of canapes, including fillet of lamb on toast, Shropshire blue cheese, beef and Yorkshire pudding with horseradish sauce, mushroom tarts and roast chicken skewers.
But what about the British whisky and leftover British haggis?
DeleteI dont know what I`ll eat tonight. But I will be in the dark for the rest of the night. I have to choise food or electricity. I have just recived a letter about my disability allowence. I dont think my wife and I can survive. What now? Shall we ask the snp for help? I have just saved my self some money I cancelled my membership. S o next week may be we will have the lights on and food.
DeleteSeems hard to understand why we waited so long for that response. That could have come 5 minutes after Boris officially declined the Section 30 order request.
ReplyDeleteThe SNP look very much like they don't know what to do next. Where are the consequences NS warned Boris of? He will not exactly be quaking in his boots at that.
What is the plan? We *might* test the legality of a referendum without a section 30 order. Ho hum.
And absolutely zero to say why this will be any different post 2021 Holywood election.
This sounds like a First Minister who has no bold plans for taking Scotland's cause forward. A politician who has no fresh ideas and is just hoping something will turn up if we wait long enough.
ReplyDeleteSpot on, another politician who are more concerned with staying in power. I guess the Irish and Americans had it all wrong, they should have waited to there was a the "legal" way.
DeleteWill Ian Blackford turn up at Westminster next session.
ReplyDeleteAfter all , no out of the EU on his watch, I think he said.
What is required is a new pro-indeoence party to fight ScotParl elections in 2021. A party that will win list vote seats and hold the balance of power at Holyrood with the sole aim of pursuing IndyRef2 without Westminster approval.
ReplyDeleteThe 'Scottish Independence Party' on the ballot will do the trick.
I'd certainly consider such a party if over the next year I don't see the SNP making every sensible effort to move forward.
DeleteHowever, at this stage, it seems to me they are, and 'middle Scotland' will conclude similarly.
As noted above however, the opponent has changed. Scotland has been won over. Of that I am very sure. The union is dead to voters now, and going forward we can expect a pro-indy poll majority. Scottish unionism has handed in the towel.
However, we must now fight an unpleasant, aggressive, racist colonial England, and convince our European neigbours to take our side.
Scotland needs a more radical political party to lead the pro-independence movement. Such a party could easily win 10+ list seats at Holyrood and in doing establish themselves as a credible alternative to the SNP. The current SNP leadership have failed their supporters the time to act is now.
DeleteSkier, it should read EU Colonial neighbours.
DeleteWhich is trying to stop Scots freely voting so it can rule Scotland against the will of its people?
DeleteA. England
B. 1 or more EU countries
Let's bypass parliament - create a database of names that can be vouched to the electoral roll and periodically refreshed. Once we 2.5m signed up, then UDI. A 2020 Declaration of Arbroath.
ReplyDeletehttps://digitalcovenant.co.uk/
DeleteDon't think 2.5 million would be necessary, though. 1.81 million would do -- over 50% of the 85% turnout in 2014.
------------------------
Today's speech was the biggest disappointment of the past five years. I've cancelled my SNP membership and explained to them why. Doubt I'll be the only one.
At the same time, the wisest approach here is probably to respond how we should to any disappointment -- don't succumb to despair, i.e. don't assume we know the future. It's still possible a Brexit economic collapse and/or No Deal chaos brings Yes up to the high fifties. And maybe somebody else will be party leader at that time.
Still, is there another country in the world where bottling it is so central to the national psyche?
Top tip for you Nat sis. Children born during 2014 will be around 16 come 2030. That will be a new voting generation. That would comply with the alleged once in a generation promise. So go for 2030 because whoever is in power in Westminster could not block a section 30.
ReplyDeleteErm, a political generation starts at around 1 year.
Deletehttps://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/computer-science/political-generation
While a family generation might be up to 30 years, the electorate don't all have their kids at the same time, in one go, every 30 years or so.
Young people come of voting age every day en masse; a new generation each year, and 65% yes too.
You've already lost. You can see the tide slowly turning against you here:
https://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-would-you-vote-in-the-in-a-scottish-independence-referendum-if-held-now-ask/#line
Nazi House-Jock blethering his pish again.
DeleteWhen does a Vow expire? After about 16 minutes? And is it more closely related to the Edinburgh Agreement than some comment in an interview?
DeleteThere are people who are more interested in removing Nicola Sturgeon from power than gaining Independence just because they have an agenda against her, be wary of those people because they're intention is to bring down the SNP, not help to boost their strength, because by doing that Independence would eventually happen, and they don't want that
ReplyDeleteWe all know who they are and they earn their dosh by blogging and talking a lot about Independence but if it happens they've got no cash coming in anymore from the donations of actual people who do want Independence
A political party can't operate without cash and there's too many people giving their cash to too many shysters more than willing to gobble it up and how do these shysters propose to help you achieve Independence, well they don't propose anything except to tell you not to like Nicola Sturgeon because not having Independence is all her fault instead of telling you the truth that not getting Independence is the fault of those not prepared to support it or vote for it and a bunch of Nazis in Westminster threatening to close down the Scottish parliament if she tries without more obvious support which they will always try to suppress
Independence will happen but not by some Boadicea moment of a Joan of Arc moment of folly from Nicola Sturgeon by doing what the screamers and shysters would have you believe
There is a majority for Independence of that there is no doubt but Scotland as a people must shout more loudly to make it obvious, if we don't it won't happen because the Westminster Nazis will be more than happy to treat Scotland like Catalonia even though the circumstances are completely different, the Westminster Nazis don't care and neither do the fake bloggers who scream about the SNP betraying Scotland when they have nothing to lose and the sooner some of them are gone the better for all of us
Don't blame the messenger for the news that it's our fault we blew it in 2014 and gave the Nazis in England their chance to vote for an actual Nazi Orange Lodge party
This year all hell is going to break out in England but remember folks they voted for it, and they voted for Scotland Ireland and Wales to be owned by England so don't feel sorry when the shit descends on them, it's their own xenophobic racist Union fault
When the troops are facing the enemy, the leader usually gives a speech to fire them up, and get them ready to give up their lives for the cause.
ReplyDeleteFor the leader to say they have a dose of the skitters, and they would rather everyone else went home, has brought tears to the eyes of this old man.
Required for stable UK and successful brexit:
ReplyDelete- All UK nations voted leave and overwhelmingly back it
- SNP struggling on 20%
- Yes well below 30% with young people strongly unionist
- Unionists have just won historic victories in Scotland and NI
- All developed parliaments give consent for brexit bill
- British economy growing strongly
The reality:
- Only 2/4 nations voted leave and none now back it
- SNP on 45%+
- Yes in majority with 65% Yes in the under 49’s
- Scottish nationalists / Irish republicans have just won historic election landslides / victories, completing the trinities in both home nations, i.e. unionists defeated at every level (council, devolved parliament and Westminster).
- All devolved parliaments refuse consent for brexit bill
- British economy on the rocks with mass emigration of skilled workers underway
Nobody in their right mind could conclude anything other than a grand constitutional crisis of epic proportions is coming.
Watch the film downfall about Hitler’s last days in the bunker. Near the end, when the Russians were just streets away, in the bunker they were still moving imaginary armies around, and throwing huge parties. That’s the UK tonight.
In the cold light of dawn tomorrow, no longer a member of a powerful trading block, England will find itself completely on its knees and at the mercy of the world. It will find it has no friends to back it up, not even at home, because it called them vermin and tried to take away their vote.
I will drink tonight to the last day of the union, for it dies in Scottish hearts tonight at 23:00.
Tonight Big Ben rings out a border down the Irish sea and beginning of the very end for Britain.
Simple Question, If as Expected Boris takes the Powers away From Holyrood, that Will Include the Power to Hold Referenda, How will she be Able to Hold any, Nevermind a Legal one ??
ReplyDeleteScots MPs can vote to withdraw Scotland from the union with the backing of the Scottish people (obviously, as they were elected). This will happen anyway, even after a holyrood referendum. It's the old 'pre-devo' way.
DeleteSinn Fein stand on a withdrawal ticket at ever election. It's why they don't turn up. If they won most seats, and didn't turn up. Westminster couldn't govern NI with any democratic legitimacy.
As long as we keep sending MPs to sit in Westminster, it has the right to rule. We stop, that right stops.
there needs to be a new pro independence party set up to put up candidates on the Holyrood list. Sorry but I've no intention of letting the SNP get Labour style comfy in well paid jobs whilst stringing us along.
ReplyDeleteThose who claim to have inside info that say March will be very uncomfortable for Sturgeon and Lesley Evans. Nicola is an excellent politician but we need a leader of an independence movement. Is she the right one for that?
A terrible mistake. I am dumbstruck.
ReplyDeleteI certainly hope this brings about the demise of Wings over Scotland because Stuart Campbell has done more to assist in the division in Scotland than the Tories with his constant vitriolic hatred of Unionists favourite football club
ReplyDeleteSome will say football and politics shouldn't be mixed but the fact is this is Scotland where the population love their football(even thought we're not very good at it) and align themselves with their chosen club, Stuart Campbell has goaded and insulted and downright abused this section of society mercilessly, because that's what he is, a subversive mixer and deliberately divisive figure
Instead of attempting to bring Scottish society together he embarked on a campaign of hatred against Unionists bordering on insanity and if you behave like that towards someones chosen selection then you create the hatred that goes along with it
Stuart Campbell was seen as someone who supported Independence thus that section of society hate Independence because they believe that's what he represents, he does not represent me or other genuine Independence supporters because in truth we don't care what football club anyone supports and don't hate the people who support them either
Forget about Wings over Scotland, it's a meaningless blog by a mean blogger filled with hatred who doesn't even live in our country and has chosen to live in England so what possible difference would Scottish Independence make to him, the answer is none
Independence for Scotland has nothing whatsoever to do with hate for anyone, it's about self determination as a people, not who your football club is or what your religion is, don't let people like Campbell get in your head, his hatred is causing trouble not fixing it and that's what he thrives on
I am not a member of the SNP, nor very knowledgeable about its policies, still less involved in SNP politics in any way at all. I've always thought that Nicola Sturgeon was a good and competent First Minister, and a good speaker, in and out of Parliament. I am also unmistakably English, and was converted to independence-supporting by the first few weeks of the referendum campaign. With this background, I am firmly of the opinion that after the last 3 years of incompetent, misdirected and neglectful Westminster government and opposition politics, _if the Scots don't take independence now, they never will_. And if the SNP fails in its main purpose now, it is not impossible, it is even likely, that the SNP will be weakened in the 2021 Holyrood election to the point that they will be excluded from power by a unionist grand coalition. If support for independence depends on continuing incompetence in London, the independence movement faces the terminal risk that it can be wiped out any time that the Westminster politicians regain an ordinary modicum of competence and political skill
ReplyDeleteWell now you know, the Scottish parliament is not sovereign, its hands are tied, and I can harp on about it and say “ told you so”, when will you listen and learn. It is the Scottish people who are sovereign.
ReplyDeleteAbout time that they pulled together, and made a document of statement that the sovereign people of Scotland are annulling the treaty of the union, making it void, and closing the devolved parliament of Scotland,and are to elect a totally new government under the sovereignty of the Scottish people and chosen by the sovereign Scottish people. No citizens assembly,(as this is mainly run by a selected few on the top, such as businesses, landowners and politicians,)but a Scottish sovereign people’s clanship. Jock Tamsins Bairns, everyone born here and everyone who wishes to make Scotland their home permanently, who has the qualities as a sovereign scot to organise this. For we are a poor nation indeed if we throw our sovereignty away to any government, be it England or Scotland.
The Scottish parliament was never 'sovereign'. it is a devolved assembly and conditionally inferior to Westminster.
DeleteThis is legal and constitutional fact and not some weird secret.
It's a legal fact that Westminster sovereignty does not exist in scoittish constitional law too.
DeleteIt exists in UK constitutional law. Which is supreme over any Scottish conditional law. Because Scotland is a part of the UK.
DeleteThat's why Holyrood was created by an act of parliament at Westminster, and could be disbanded in the same way.
There is no such thing as UK law. Only scots law applies in Scotland.
DeleteBritain has NO constitution, they make it up as they go along. Westminster is a five year tinpot dictatorship.
DeleteYes it does.
DeleteLove to see james franticly deleted dissenting opinion on this blog. What a small man.
No, the UK has no written constitution, nor is there 'UK law'.
DeleteErgo, there is no such thing as 'UK constitutional law'.
It's also a fact that the 1998 Scotland Act doesn't even reserve the constitution.
Such a small man, can't compute must terminate, must terminate, delete, delete, delete.
DeleteYou are correct, the Scottish parliament is no more sovereign, than England’s parliament, unless you wish to end the treaty of the union 1707, which devolution seems to have done, and so did the Scotland act, the treaty mentions no superiority of Westminster over Scotland to issue secondary devolved government to Scotland, it also forgets to mention the sovereignty of the Scottish people, in fact as far as I can see the treaty of the union does not include the sovereign Scottish people as it was kept a secret, and there is not in any way whatsoever that it can be claimed by history or historians that the Scottish people agreed to it, as there were riots all over Scotland when the news of the 1707 treaty was circulated, england sent there army up to The Scottish Borders to shut the protests down of the sovereign Scottish people, not an agreement then. An illegal sale of a country by a
ReplyDeletegroup of named people whose signatures can be seen to this day. So was the treaty even
legal in 1707. Is it legal today? Could we sell England? Could we sell France, if you do not need to ask the permission of the people of that country
Not long now until we British are free from the chains of the EU. Bought a nice we double double Kenmore from M&S today after an excellent itison meal at Raddison Blue. My wife is a bit gutted but I will wait until later tae rubb it in. 2300hrs BST.
ReplyDeleteThere's no way any woman would admit to being the wife of such a clown as yourself unless she's a prisoner of course or more probably you just made her up like the rest of the shit you post here, as long as you've got yer fortnightly Giro getting paid in you'll be alright though
DeleteI said it was my wife I did not mention a woman. My skivers money goes straight into my ISA account.
DeleteBST? Is this Summer? Pretty grim. Very British.
DeleteI have my heating on.
DeleteI have my split crotch panties on.
DeleteAt 23:00, the UK becomes fully subject to EU law, but no longer has a say. Full free movement remains in place. This will be the case for at least a year, likely much longer.
DeleteIreland also starts making laws for NI which the UK can't overturn.
I haven't read or heard the whole speech but that of itself tells a tale. No strong message has come out of today (yet). Maybe people power on the streets...
ReplyDeleteAlthough normally of the view that it's unhelpful to go around publicly slagging off the leadership or calling for unrealistic actions that could scare off the target swing voters, today seems different.
We've been led to expect a reaction to all the pile of things happening in the last 2 months - the Tory election win, the Brexit legislation going through without consent, the refusal of the secrion 30 order, the refusal of the visa idea without being read, the denigration of Scotland's voice in Parliament.... but the reaction is not action, it's just more of the same. No wonder people are losing the plot all over the place.
What else could have been done? Well, I'd have thought, why couldn't they announce some sort of talks with EU and UN, something, anything, to indicate seriousness of taking the issue of international recognition to a new level. A commitment to that wouldn't even need to mean promising a positive outcome, but would be some sort of statement that new things were being done, especially things now applying (Brexit in reality, and refusal of democracy in her own lifetime!)
Something - anything - to show some sort of defiance, that the start of the end of the Union is really nigh. But instead it's unlikely the speech will be troubling the headlines of the day, all about the achievement of Brexit Britain, and not the Scottish spanner in the works it could have been.
You would not know what a spanner is. That was the domain of the Scottish working class Unionists who worked hard for a living and built our country. Unlike the EU erse lick in Mep pariah money grabbers.
DeleteOn another point, the relentless unionist and media campaign against the SNP domestic record will surely go into overdrive in the next year. Thing is, the more people keep going on and on about the problems, even if you don't believe it, it must have an effect.
ReplyDeleteBut the thing is, in one sense it shouldn't matter what the domestic record. The existence of your country should not be dependent on a particular party running schools and hospitals well.
Just think how Farage has got his Brexit without ever being so much as a council leader, never mind running a national government.
Yes indeed Farage surprised a lot of people by his tenacity and his mission to expose the corrupt Mafia EU elites. He did it and well done. I hope other great EU countries with a long history will do the same. Trade is possible without the hingers oan milking the people.
Delete" I hope other great EU countries... will do the same" No one is that stupid.
DeleteWell I have seen a viewpoint that NS's speech was aimed at an international audience and so emphasising the legal-democratic angle was currying favour with other EU countries who would have a say in international recognition, let alone admission to EU. So... it could be they are playing a long game? But still, I think there is more that could be done now.
ReplyDeleteAs I keep saying, the domestic battle has been won. Yes is now entering permanent majority. No Section 30 ensures that unionists will never win the referendum when it eventually comes.
DeleteThat speech was not for us, it was for the neighbours.
It is not Aye vs Naw now, it is Scotland vs England.
Johnson killed Scottish unionism. He took out Davidson and lost the Scots Tories half the seats they'd managed to win back. He then wiped out their very reason for existence; to defend the union. If Westminster won't agree to a vote, there is no reason anymore to vote Tory.
Scottish unionism is dead. Tonight the bell tolls for it.
And we must face an aggressive, racist England now, that is our enemy. Scots are uniting against it as we speak. It is a battle that England cannot win.
The English imperialists are also cowardly bullies, who at 23:00, will be on their knees, at the mercy of everyone. If we put up a fight, they'll soil themselves and run like they always do.
I think Scottish Unionism in the sense of proud Scots believing they are punching above their weight in a union of equals has been diminished, even holed below the waterline, by Johnson.
DeleteBut there is still a hardcore of British nationalism that does not need refer to the Union, just Britishness and what may as well be a unitary state. I don't think that is dead, or even in retreat. But it is a relatively small rump, that will cling grimly to the British teat as long as possible.
At 23:00 tonight, the UK loses its sovereignty completely. It will be fully subject to EU law and free movement, but have no say in that at all, having departed the parliament and council.
ReplyDeleteIt will be like this for a year. Most likely much longer.
As the same time, Ireland will draw a border down the Irish sea, and start making laws for Northern Ireland; laws that Britain can't overturn.
This is 'taking back control' apparently.
No border down the Irish see at 23.00, not until 01 Jan 2021 at the earliest when the UK leaves the SM & CU.
ReplyDeleteNo, the exit agreement comes into effect, and the new border with it, at 23:00. That will be it in law. Ireland will start making laws - via the EU - for the north which Britain can't overturn.
DeleteThe checks will in theory start in a year though, as you say. The transition will likely be extended for many years though, so this could be 5-10 years away.
Junker no more, Knickerless no more, Barnier no more, Skier no more, Boris will send a letter to America from Miami tae Canada. Linwood no more, Bathgate no more, Methil no more. No more Scottish Tartan Tories pretending they hate the Blue Tories. They are at one!
ReplyDeleteNot for at least a year. EU law still applies tomorrow in full.
DeleteBritain just gets no say on that any more.
As an Irishman, I can say we are really looking forward to making laws for the North that Britain has to accept. All starts in a hour!
Your an Irishman again!
DeleteNope the northern Ireland protocol (which creates the border) comes in effect at the start at the end of December 2020:
ReplyDeleteConsent
Stormont will have a key role in future Brexit arrangements. And if there is cross-community support to remain aligned to the EU rather than the UK the consent will hold for eight years.
The arrangements in this deal will automatically kick in for a mandated four years if there is a breakdown in trade talks, so it remains a “backstop” but with a permanent tinge.
That four-year period will start at the end of December 2020.
Two months before the end of the four-year period, that is October 2024, Stormont will be asked to vote on whether to remain aligned to the EU in ways outlined by this deal or not.
Assembly members will then be given the opportunity to effectively roll the deal over by a period of four or eight years.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/17/how-is-boris-johnson-brexit-deal-different-from-theresa-may
No need for for it before then because as you say the whole of the UK will be subject to EU rules and in the SM/CU.
The exit agreement, which puts into the law the new border (effective as of December 2020), starts at 23:00 tonight.
DeleteAll laws made in the EU will be applicable to the UK for the next year and the UK gets no say or veto over what they might be
ReplyDeleteKeep watching your stolen telly son, you're about to find out how this is going to work and who's about to turn up in Scotland's Bute House for wee visits to make it more than obvious who's on who's side
Yea I will, Macron has already said he will be coming over to the UK. I'm assuming (as you have said) if he does not pop up to bute house you will agree that he is on the UK's side?
ReplyDeleteBy on the UK's side, do you mean about the steelworks thing? Didn't look like that to me.
DeleteI doubt the Rothchild banker Macron will support the Jacobite cause. If he did then a hard brexit would be imminent.
DeleteYes it appears the French have a problem with the Chinese, very racist.
DeleteIt's just you said the French were on the UK side. Doesn't look like it to me.
DeleteWell can't do anything about the French hating the Chinese the so much they don't they want to block the deal. Its not economic, they are more than happy to accept a 'lesser' deal as long as its not the chinese, as i said clear racism.
DeleteAnyhow back to the main point I wait with baited breath for the messages of support and solidarity with Scotland (plus visits to Bute House) from EU leaders now that the UK is out of the EU. Maybe should have a monthly tracker...or will a little song and a laser projection be the highlight of their 'solidarity'?
I was going to ask why nobody's turned up for the leave party in George Square (webcam shows a scene from the Marie Celeste), then I realised they're at home alone posting on here.
ReplyDeleteSo much for the 'new dawn breaking'. At least a few folk came along for the unionist riot after the 2014 vote.
The Irish and other foreign bodies disguised as Scots are holding Vigils waving their little candles in the air. Like a religious ceremony. They need the EU to run their lives. They should go to ROI with Skier where sad songs are routine.
ReplyDeleteTonight's taking back control summed up. At 23:00, this happens.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50838994
During this period, the UK will remain in both the EU customs union and single market.
That means, until the transition ends, most things will stay the same. This includes:
Travelling to and from the EU (including the rules around driving licences and pet passports)
Freedom of movement (the right to live and work in the EU and vice versa)
UK-EU trade, which will continue without any extra charges or checks being introduced
Once the transition begins, the UK will automatically lose its membership of the EU's political institutions, including the European Parliament and European Commission.
So, while the UK will no longer have any voting rights, it will need to follow EU rules. The European Court of Justice will also continue to have the final say over any legal disputes.
The transition also means the UK will continue to contribute to the EU's budget.
That last bit I love.
Hope you are drinking to full EU control of everything as of 23:00 GWC!
UK will never have had such little control over its own laws.
Survation UK Scots sample:
ReplyDelete52% SNP
22% Lab
13% Con
11% Lib
3% Grn
I would not concern myself with hyperbole Skier. You cannot talk and type your way to reversing brexit. You are a spent force. Try getting Scotland to leave the UK Union on its own merit and not in the EU which controls Scotland. You may find unexpected support.
ReplyDeleteEngland hates Scots, hence trying to overturn our elections and prevent us voting.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, the Europeans sing us auld lang syne and put big messages of friendship on buildings.
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1223369787260260354
That was a nice wee dram Skier to celebrate leaving the clutches of EU Empire. I now understand my father when he said we had thought we had beaten the Nazis then Ted Health sold us.
DeleteAuld lang syne and now the above. What a great night. The final end of the UK. Britain dies in the hearts of Scots.
DeleteAnd all because you wouldn't let them freely choose it.
DeleteIt was that simple. That's all you had to do.
But you didn't, and so you lost them.
Glad to see you have not topped yerself Skier over a political issue. You must go on and on as you are a Unionist asset. Get rid of the EU and then promote Scotland. Knickerless constantly going on about being dragged out of the EU means the EU runs Scotland.
DeleteI know you disagree James, but I think a change of leadership may be necessary before any action is taken. Sturgeon is cautious to a fault.
ReplyDeleteI'm getting unfortunate echoes of the cautious and torturous way the parties at Westminster went about engineering an election at "precisely the right time". They thought the later the better. As it turns out, all of their meticulous and assured planning for a post Halloween Tory collapse backfired anyway, as anyone with half a brain knew it would.
The fact that Sturgeon appears not to have learned from that and is still in search of the "perfect" time concerns me greatly. She'll be searching so long the opportunity will have passed.
You couldn't be more wrong Boris and his Nazi party combined with English hatred of Scotland has already in this short evening begun to have the effect Nicola Sturgeon predicted it would
DeleteThe celebration of England's victory of telling Scots their votes don't count has proved beyond doubt the FM was right
The only calls for getting rid of anything I encountered tonight was get rid of Stuart Campbell's Wings Over Scotland because he's a divisive and bad influence on the very people the Independence movement are trying to attract with his obsessive foul mouthed rants at Rangers supporters many of whom are turning to Independence now, and they're right, all that blog has done for months now is foul mouth the First Minister without any contribution whatsoever on the subject of Independence, it's water off a ducks back to her but supporters of Independence don't like it and they don't like him, and who can blame them, he talks like Nigel Farage and uses the same tactics as Farage to attract the type of supporters Farage would, and for what, the sooner the guy's gone to F..k the better
The new portrait of President Jamez is inspirational in a dark hour. Is taken from his Battaglia Del Marmite speech when he tell Random Totty to clean behind the fridge.
ReplyDeleteGenuine question...
ReplyDeleteHow many Scottish election results can you overturn before you are a fascist?
Asking for an English 'friend'.
UK Westminster poll Scots sample PoP 2019 so far
ReplyDelete49% SNP
26% Con
15% Lab
7% Lib
3% Green
(opinium, Yougov, Survation)
Not that it matters of course if fascist c**t neigbouring countries overturn the result!
I am going on strike. I will not take part in another photoshoot until Scotland gets its vote.
ReplyDeleteBig Eater From Perth is my favourite older man but I think he should go on hunger strike. It will give us time to negotiate.
This is just glorious. It's the future of the UK from a Scottish perspective summed up in 17 seconds.
ReplyDeleteLast night in George Square.
At 23:00 rather than midnight as originally requested by the UK, because Europe is an hour ahead.
https://twitter.com/Peter_Davidson1/status/1223373476280619010
So six nations kicks off today. Off course we will see the Scottish Rugby team wearing armbands to show support for a Scotland subjugated by fascist England. The players will also use any media time they have to make a point about this too. We have been told many times that this would happen by posters on this thread.
ReplyDeleteIt's maybe slightly early days for such things. You are getting just a wee bitty carried away after last nights pathetic joke of an exit.
DeleteHowever, it will certainly be a very useful reminder to the world that Scotland is a country and England is English.
And therefore a fascist c**t of a country for not respecting the will of the Scots people.
This is what all the Europeans in my office / when I was on holiday were saying.
Having said that, the huge 'Free Scotland' message on the side of the EU Commission building last night was a nice touch by our friends on the continent.
DeleteThat and the EU parliament serenading us with Auld Lang Syne. Aye, we'll be reunited soon my friends!
Seems they're not hanging around with the armbands etc!
What's your twitter skier? I want to get your civic nationalist message out to as many people as possible.
DeleteEarly days? Scotland has just been ripped out of the EU, a fascist state is crushing democracy, English troops will soon be on Scottish streets bashing in old ladies heads, the Scottish Parliament is going to be shut down! People have repeatedly stated this is going to happen on social media on on this forum!
DeleteCan't be early days if we are now in the middle of a constitutional crisis.
I'll add onto my list of things to look out for, along with world leaders queuing up outside Bute House to show solidarity with Scotland....
The current English regime doesn't do civic nationalism now it seems. Civic nationalism involves respecting election results and the self determination of peoples. Ergo, section 30's on request for Scotland/Wales/NI, and not overturning 1997 with power grabs.
DeleteAs a civic nationalist, I respect people that respect those things, unionists included. Those that don't are the type of fascist c**ts that my grandparents fought* against in WW2, and I'm not afraid to say it because I'm not a cowardly wee sweaty fascist shite.
Nobody tries to take my vote of me and gets respect.
I respect unionists. I don't respect those that would try to subjugate my country.
---
*Fought alongside many brave English folks. The kind that would give Scotland a section 30 in a second. Of course there were cowardly Brits too. The ones that tried to get out of being drafted. The ones that would hide at the back. The last to run up the beach, sheltering behind those in front... those that would see a comrade killed to save themselves. They are the ones against a section 30.
If Scotland's government was blocking an English Section 30, I'd say exactly the same about them. You can be sure of that.
DeleteIf the Nazis had invaded the UK, I'd have fought them while you collaborated. That's the difference between us.
Delete..And the difference between good, honest, brave, democratic English folks and those currently running its government.
Now that I have had a day to rethink. I get the feeling that speech yesterday was for the benefit of the EU.That the SG will go down a legal route.
ReplyDeleteI keep repeating myself, but the battleground has changed.
DeleteUnionists have lost iref2 already. This is why no Section 30.
It is not indy vs unionist any more. Yes has beaten BetterTogether. We are entering natural Yes majority territory with the demographics ensuring no future for the UK.
It is now Scotland vs England thanks to Brexit and the English nationalists. Only Yes can win that battle.
The speech was not for us, but for the EU.
In turn they sung us Auld Lang Syne and put a great big 'Free Scotland' sign on the EU commission building last night.
Agree, UK's S30 refusal is something they'd rather not be widely known internationally.
ReplyDeleteWe now need pressure applied at UN level allied to an educational blitz on the streets.
UK Politicians are already questioning the sustainability of Johnson's NO to Indyref2.
He'll concede. It's what he does.
Meanwhile keep the heid.
All the 'Little Englander' triumphalism will not play well in Scotland.
Skier, if you woke up this morning you will have noticed that nothing much has changed. The pound-euro rate has not changed and shares are stable. Brit MEPs are job seeking. Life goes on although no doubt you will continue with your English hating bile.
ReplyDeleteYes. It's because we are still in the EU in all respects. Fully subject to EU law and full free movement.
DeleteWe just don't get a say in any of those things now.
The same will apply when the trade deal is done. The UK will have to abide by all the laws of the EU for the market access areas it wants to have. It will get no say in those laws though.
Of course a deal may not be done at all.
DeleteWe have 11 months to a potential no deal crash out brexit.
The frogs and Irish want access to our fishing grounds so a no deal is on the cards before the talks start.
DeleteHuge yes vote in bag if so!
Delete@GWC The English Nazi party want access to EU financial services which means everything to the city of London and Herr Johnsons regime pals so he would cut of your bigoted little head to get access to that let alone worry about thick fishermen he's already conned
DeleteWhat age are you? 14years old
Judging by the weight of your average cholesterol-sweating loyalist, the only thing you lot are waiting for is coronary heart failure.
DeleteRest assured, your long-suffering wives and families are eagerly waiting for the same thing.
I think as the disaster of Brexit starts to kick in and the battery of lies and claims from the slimeball Johnson come home to roost it will only boost the cause.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the above, Nicola has got it right, going painstakingly through ever possible option, until the time is right, and that is when the Brexshit disaster is clear to all.
ReplyDeleteHave not read all the comments so apologies if someone else has speculated above that a certain litigious case will begin in March (but where will it end)?, which could be the catalyst for great change. Perhaps matters are deliberately 'on the back burner' so that whatever occurs, the instigators of Indyref2 are unconnected with whatever the fall=out therewith may be?
ReplyDelete