Friday, June 6, 2025

A vague thought about something positive we could consider doing

It's been more than two years since Scot Goes Pop last commissioned an opinion poll (although there were two in quick succession in early 2023).  I've been reluctant to go down that road again since my last dedicated polling fundraiser in 2024 ended up in no-man's-land, raising a significant amount but not enough to go ahead with the poll.  Additionally, I've become painfully aware over the years that running the polling fundraisers makes it much harder for the general annual fundraisers to succeed, and ultimately it's the general fundraisers that are the bread-and-butter - without them the blog can't survive for very long, and this year's fundraiser so far remains well short of its target figure.

All of that said, there's a part of me, maybe only a small part but nevertheless a part, that thinks now might be a good time for another poll.  In the wake of their narrow defeat in the Hamilton by-election, the SNP stand at a strategic crossroads with eleven months to go until the Holyrood election - still enough time for key changes to be made and trajectories to be altered.  Some voices within the party are sensibly calling for "the independence button to be pushed", in order to reverse the recent decoupling between Yes support and SNP support, but as you may have seen on Angus MacNeil's Twitter account, there are also other voices barking up completely the wrong tree and trying to convince themselves and everyone else that the problem must somehow be Kate Forbes (!) and her social conservative views.  If any heed is paid to that, the SNP could make a dreadful mistake by distancing themselves even further from independence and reverting to being an identity politics party.

Here's how I see the situation - 

* On the previous two comments threads, it seemed to me there was a lot of 'electoral illiteracy' on display - many people seem to assume that if the SNP fall short in one particular constituency, that must be an unmitigated disaster that proves they are on course for a crushing national defeat next year.  Trying to explain to these people that, actually, Hamilton is a particularly favourable sort of seat for Labour, and that the swing last night was broadly consistent with national opinion polls showing the SNP in a double-digit Scotland lead over Labour, seems to only produce derision and mockery.  The paradox is that the SNP's problem after Hamilton is not the result itself, which objectively was not all that bad, but the danger that the media hype about the result could in itself change public opinion by producing fresh momentum against the SNP.

* Although the result was close to being in line with the opinion polls, the SNP fell just very slightly short of where they perhaps should have been.  This is John Swinney's second contact with the voters in a major electoral event, and on both occasions I haven't been able to escape the feeling that the SNP have left a little bit on the pitch.  Swinney's good personal ratings in the polls suggest he should theoretically be an asset, but in practice it might not be working out quite that way when real elections occur.

* The danger is, then, that polling which on average has suggested the pro-independence parties will narrowly retain their majority in Holyrood next year could translate into an actual election result in which they narrowly lose their majority.  After last night, that's my gut feeling of the most likely outcome.  The SNP would probably stay in power as a minority government, but that wouldn't be much use to us - the independence movement would still be cast into the wilderness for at least five years.

* But on a more positive note, the fact that we're talking about missing out by narrow margins means that even a small corrective in the near future could save the day and rescue the pro-indy majority.

* Regardless of who is SNP leader, it seems logical that the best chance of maximising the SNP vote is to try to win back the huge numbers of people who now vote for unionist parties in spite of remaining independence supporters.  The only way of doing that is by bringing independence back to the forefront of the SNP's campaigning, an idea which seems to run counter to every instinct in John Swinney's body.  I think, therefore, it could be helpful to have a poll that explores how voters would react to an SNP that changes course and starts speaking of independence as an urgent priority and actually tries to deliver it.  If the results were favourable, I can't guarantee the SNP leadership would pay the slightest heed to the poll, but they'd probably be a bit more likely to pay heed to it than to even a million irate emails.  I'd obviously want to ask serious and credible questions in the poll that produce meaningful answers, rather than fantastical pie-in-the-sky nonsense like "how would you vote in a referendum that forced you to choose between independence and abolishing the Scottish Parliament altogether". 

* I would also, frankly, like to ask at least one credible question about Scottish attitudes towards the situation in Palestine, as a kind of remedial action after Campbell's outrageously leading poll question the other day that sought to portray the genocide in Gaza as a "war between Israel and Hamas", in which "both sides" are equally to blame.

* Bear in mind that there may be a downside to running a poll now because the voting intention question could potentially show a dip in SNP support in the wake of Hamilton.  That would probably be only temporary, but any such result could obviously be seized upon by our opponents.

Let me know what you think.  Because of the difficulties of fundraising that I outlined earlier, I'd probably only go ahead if there's overwhelming support for the idea.

56 comments:

  1. My thoughts are that hypothetical polls like "how would you vote if SNP prioritised indy" are widely regarded as unreliable.

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    1. Which is precisely why I wouldn't be asking questions like that. As I said, credible, serious questions - not vagueness, and not pie-in-the-sky fantasies either.

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  2. I wouldn't waste your money on a poll until at least nearer to autumn when there hopefully would be some indication of the SNP making some changes, maybe moving towards collaboration with others - or doing something different, interesting or positively productive. Maybe also by the end of the year there will be some new Holyrood candidate news or activity from other pro independence parties, or something coming into the mix which will change the landscape in some gripping way.

    I'd let other bods put their money into polls right now and space yourself for some unexpected change and let all of the Hamilton sooth-saying and post mortem reach an end.

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    1. I hear what you say about the poll, but as far as the SNP collaborating with others is concerned, I'm pretty sure you'll find that's a complete non-starter (assuming you're implying an electoral pact). And if the shambles of Liberate Scotland is anything to go by, there isn't going to be any help coming from outside the SNP either.

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    2. Hi James. Sorry I wasn't clear - I don't see anything happening re the 'pact' demand from Alba, the movement etc, but then I don't think it would produce anything remotely productive if it were to happen anyway - it would just be more anti-SNP grudge taking up time and nothing else. Yes, Liberate Scotland seems contradictory to the notion of 'independence' and as you say a 'shambles'.

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  3. There surely has to be a question about MogaJohn - should he be replaced?

    And by whom (provide a list of options 1 through 5 ... if you can think of that many possibilities within the ranks of the current SNP)?

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    1. There is nobody better than John Swinney. The man has to be given a chance.
      If next year’s Holyrood election goes badly, then that will be the time to look at change at the top. He should be given at least the next year, in my view.

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    2. JS has been given a chance ... twice.

      2000-2004: Westminster 2001, Holyrood 2003 and Euro 2004 election disasters. Shambles.

      2024-date:

      Westminster 2024 crushing defeat and massive vote loss.

      Now Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse. Turnout might have been down by over a quarter proportionately but the SNP vote reduced by 36% in relative terms.

      He's a dictator, not a leader.

      And a loser.

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    3. Anon at 3.24pm says " There is nobody better than John Swinney." and that sentence sums up exactly what is wrong with the SNP.

      That is the Sturgeon dividend. An SNP full of a lot of useless people who are no better than Swinney who loses every election and tells independence supporters we need to wait until polls say yes is > 70% before he will think about doing something about independence.

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    4. Ach, there's always the NSP.

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  4. Swinney is the silent killer of the SNP. They had a chance to radically change things. I am afraid they have accepted their fate. Much like Scottish Labour did under their various useless leaders post 2007.

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  5. What the SNP should do is make gender politics their number 1 priority, closely followed by heat pumps being compulsory or your house confiscated, make all the waters of Scotland an MPA with open season on getting rid of the fish, no swimming, no paddling and beaches sealed off with biodegradable barbed hessian, ask, nay, beg, to be taken over by the Greens as long as Lorna Slater is leader, then ditch Independence as their number 2 in the SNP Constitution second only to their name which of course gets changed to the Green Bute House National Party, or Crap for short, and then they can compete with the Family Party on an equal footing.

    Oh, wait, they already tried that.

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    1. yir2 at 4.25 pm -- Oh well, there's thirty seconds of my life gone, reading that pile of pish.

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    2. Thirty seconds? Wow!

      Try reading the words out loud, you might find it a bit faster than your usual need to subvocalise when you have to repeat it three time before you understand it.

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    3. I thought your comment Indyref2 was spot on but of course the usual SNP head in the sand trolls will foam at the mouth when reading it.

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    4. IFS - yes but it's our civic duty to keep the trolls engaged as it stops them from beating up dogs and small children for kicks.

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    5. You mean it's your civic duty to attack the SNP.

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    6. Anony at 3:12 PM

      Whereas it's your civic duty to applaud the SNP for their perfect campaigning tactics which LOST them Rutherglen in 2023, LOST them 38 out of 47 MPs in 2024, LOST them Hamilton in 2025, and it's your civic duty to tell the SNP "more of the same please", which will LOSE them Holyrood in 2026 and most of their MSPs.

      You're the SNP's head election strategist and I claim my £5!

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    7. It’s obvious who is to blame for the losses that yesindyref2 lists. It’s the Police. I mean if they hadn’t taken the luxury motorhome away from the SNP they could have used it for campaigning and that would have made all the difference. I’m sorry if that makes me sound like Dr Jim. Bring back the supreme one - oor Nicola.

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    8. I'm stronger for Nicola!

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    9. Frankly, I’m even Stronger for Nicola Forget the SNP Forget independence
      It’s aw aboot the fragrant Nicola

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  6. I don't know if anybody's noticed but take a look at last years general election results where Labour won that constituency by a mile to elect an MP , now despite the Orange Lodge sending out letters to the entirety of Larkhall insisting they should vote Labour, Labour only actually scraped the win by the skin of their teeth
    SNP voters once again did not turn out to vote in numbers and the rest is down to Reform UK snatching the votes of Labour and the Tories
    Next years real election will be all about the SNP and Reform UK and we will all watch as Labour's numbers tumble like the Tories straight into the bin, this actually was a bad result for Labour despite all the media working their socks off practically doing their campaigning for them
    The only result here was that Reform UK took votes from the Tories and Labour, not the SNP, SNP voters just refused to vote once again

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    1. There seems to be evidence that SNP voters gave votes to Reform. Over 8,000 allegedly didn't 'turn out' - which is interesting. Curious SNP didn't 'read the streets' as Sillars put it. They did enough doors to be well able to read the streets - and of course as soon as the red tops were advertising Sir Eck Ferguson, Graeme Souness - were supporting the Labour candidate, and his business connection with Derek Ferguson et al - it was kind of clear that Labour were going to get a bump on as a result. As well as the media, I think, subliminally working for Sarwar with so many of them being Labour enablers as a rule playing along with the act that the Labour candidate couldn't put words together and was dodging the media. I think all that was a clever Morgan McSweeney role play which seriously paid off, allowing Sarwar to come in with the local man, see how the elitists wrote him off and so forth. I think that was all set up.

      Although Swinney is quoted as having said Labour had no chance in Hamilton - I can't but think that knowing the local 'angles', he must have known there was a big chance Labour enablers would be pushing the boat out and that Labour had a good chance of skimming those votes to win. Can't fault Labour for how they played the game and used their long-term popular Scots to help sail that boat for them.

      I view Reform UK as performing a 'stalking horse' role in Scotland - with the aim really being to secure Holyrood for Sarwar. Too many of the media didn't bat an eyelid at the result, especially the BBC Labour pals. Journos always know what's going on behind the scenes and there are bound to have been a few using their considerably crammed Labour chums entries in their contacts books. This was no surprise to them.

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  7. A comment from Archie btl on WGD:

    "The 2026 election should be announced as a de facto referendum. Independence supporters will come out and vote if they have something to vote for."

    Same. If it's not totally about Independence I'm not bothering.

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    1. If they want my vote that's all they have to do, same with many others - it's easy but I don't think they're interested because they don't know what to do if they win. There's no plan and no guts

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    2. 100% correct. SNP voters are not turning out cause there is bugger all to vote for. John Swinney is nothing more than a middle manager and if he’s the best we have to fight for independence we are ****ed

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    3. Ach, there's always Alba.

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    4. Skier at 3:13 PM

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    5. always? you have a thing about panties are you skier?

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  8. I had a feeling the by-election would go this way. The SNP simply do not match the mood of the public right now. Managerial middle-class politics is not what the public are in the mood for right now. People are in an anti-establishment, populist mood, and it's incredibly difficult for a party that's been in government for 18 years to cast itself as anti-establishment. The problem goes far deeper than just deprioritising independence - because a large number of people simply wouldn't believe them even if they did prioritise independence now. That's not to say independence should not be prioritised. But trust has been lost, and they'll need a wholesale change in ethos if they're to even get people to give them the time of day again.

    They're in a difficult position, because Swinney is not really the man for the moment. But at the same time, the more leaders you burn through, the more the public loses patience with you. Alba could have been and should have been the outlet for that populist frustration. But like the SNP they got too bogged down in the weeds of gender identity issues - the sort of politics that excites ire among minorities on either side, but which do not compel the general public to vote.

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  9. What nobody seems to have pointed out is that Reform split the Unionist vote near in half, and still the SNP couldn't win.

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  10. John Swinney has failed miserably as leader from 2000/04. He lost out at last Westminster election plus most recent By elections. A 100% record. Do the SNP not realise what the problem is.

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  11. Everybody's moaning about it being the SNP's fault, it wasn't, it was the people who didn't vote's fault
    The SNP is Scotland's only protection from the Brits, and the people who didn't vote decided they don't care about Scotland

    These people are behaving like blackmailing wee children, well wait until your bus pass is gone, your free prescriptions are gone, your free tuition down the Swanee, your child payment, your baby box, your winter fuel allowance? how about that, the list is long to be thankful for the SNP but go right ahead Scotland vote for an English party for sure they'll keep all of those things won't they
    Farage doesn't even want a Scottish parliament, Sarwar will do as he's told and vote to get rid of it at the next general election
    It's England we're dealing with, they will screw Scotland right over then tell us it's exactly what we wanted them to do when we voted for them, that's all and every British political party

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    1. Dr Jim at 7.36pm in your mind it is never Sturgeon's fault, it is never Yousaf's fault, it is never Swinney's fault and it is never the SNP's fault.

      Jimbo seems to think he is telling us something new that " they will screw Scotland right over..." . Westminster are doing that now and have been doing it for hundreds of years. The job of the SNP is to deliver independence not mitigate Westminster policies.

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    2. Ifs. It is always other people’s fault. You are innocent. Above us all. Your narcissistic arrogance harms independence. Maybe that is always your game.

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    3. Anon troll at 8.54pm. I know what your game is - trolling.

      Your post is full of unsubstantiated drivel.

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    4. You tell him iFS

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    5. IfS is only pretending to support independence for Scotland.

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    6. Alec Lomax is not even pretending to support independence. He is just a troll.

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  12. So true. The SNP are in government, but not in power. They are all scrapping to be a 30% mid table mediocrity party. I think Holyrood 2026 will be a 3 way split. Be pretty hard to form any cohesive government.

    What is the point of indy supporters voting now?

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    1. You've answered your own question there. The closer it is, the more important it is to vote.

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  13. Very good Ponsonby Massie today - Ponsonby expects Reform will not repeat this at a general Scottish election and that Labour do pose a real threat to SNP.

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    1. So to summarise Swinney got it wrong to paint a picture of the SNP v Reform just as he got it wrong to paint a picture of SNP v Tories last year. No wonder he loses elections.

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  14. Declan, Scottish Skier, Irish Skier or Ross Anderson. Whatever you post under you are always wrong. Next time you post I hope you are wearing a great big D for DUNCE hat to remind yourself of your track record.

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    1. An example of the pish Declan/Skier posts. On the recent by election Skier predicts an SNP win but also says:-

      " If the SNP came second narrowly behind Labour it would be a good result for the SNP and a disaster for Labour."

      That's right losing the seat the SNP won in 2021 by a considerable majority to Labour would be a GOOD RESULT for the SNP but a disaster for Labour according to Skier. What sort of idiots take this person seriously.

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    2. Your obsession with moaning about what people post on WGD shows you to be a sad pathetic individual who needs to get a life or a job. Why dont you post on WGD re these issues .Have you been banned from there perchance for posting irrelevant bullshit.

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    3. Anon at 2:41 AM
      At least IFS can think for himself which is banned on WGD - literally banned if you disagree with him. You fit there perfectly as you clearly have no brain, your only contribution is woof woof.

      Down boy, or no bonio for you!

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    4. Her hee did you get kicked off the Dugs site too. 😁😁😁😁

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  15. I listened to some of the comments pre-election from the voters in the constituency and a lot of them were complaining about things which are reserved to Westminster. Instead of big posters of the SNP candidate in the constituency why didn't they put up posters listing the things which are reserved to Westminster and pointing out Westminster's responsibility for the bad effects on Scotland, e.g. energy costs.
    I was also disturbed at reports that SNP activists who objected to the switch from concentrating on Labour's failings to trying to counter Reform were ignored by SNP hierarchy.
    The SNP has not listened to activists and grassroots supporters for years. Given that support for Independence seems to be at an all-time high while support for the SNP is relatively low, how about a question which tries to get a reason for this which could be slapped round the SNP's ears to try to get them to listen.

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  16. There's an article in the National saying the SNP should stop looking for scapegoats for their miserable failed campaign, and here's an example:

    "THE BBC is under fire for having a “Labour-majority panel” for Debate Night on the eve of a crucial by-election."

    but how many people bother watching? From 2019: "Viewing figures for Debate Night, hosted by Stephen Jardine, fell from around 16,000 on its opening night in February to around 3000 a month later."

    Ouch! Is that by the way 3,000 over 4 night in a month = 750? Anyway, take it as 3,000, minus family and friends, party staffers, activists, leaves 1,000 over 73 Holyrood constituencies.

    So I wonder just how many of the 14 viewers from Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse were unduly influenced by the bias?

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  17. If Kate Forbes became leader, I do wonder if the number of abstainers who would vote SNP again outweighs the number who would flounce off elsewhere because of her personal views.
    Personally, I think she would be a better bet than Swinney for winning next year but I still have reservations. I've never been at all convinced of her stance on independence. She's barely ever mentioned the word, in fact.

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  18. What is it that the SNP have which none of the other parties don't possess. What is their Unique Selling Point, what is it that makes them different? What is it that their 'stay at home supporters' want? It is clearly Independence. It is so obvious that I cannot understand why the SNP are so reluctant to totally commit themselves to this.

    John Swinney is a good man who has done a decent job in bringing the SNP back from catastrophe when Yousaf was forced out but he is a Manager when what is really needed is a Leader. Sorry John but your suggestion that what needs to be done to win in 2026 is to provide good governance but do it better is utter mince. Do you not read the newspapers and follow the BBC news; no matter how well the country is run and UK's decisions are mitigated against the Mainstream Press will find fault and splash it across every headline.

    If this line is followed we will lose in 2026, a tranche of SNP MSPs will find themselves out of work, Holyrood will be emasculated or closed, the SNP will be become as influential as the Greens or Lib Dems and Independence will be lost if not forever at least for another generation (and I mean 30 years).

    A big decision needs to be made now. John Swinney must stand aside for someone to provide the Leadership, energy, vision, enthusiasm and singlemindedness to take us forward. Who? Well others will have their own views but the only one so far who has shown any of these attributes is Stephen Flynn although I think he has upset sufficient apparatchiks within SNP HQ to rule him out. Once I thought Kate Forbes was the person but I doubt she has the presence and the killer instinct to fill that role. Not a lot of candidates to choose from - come back Nicola?

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    1. There's a widespread belief among the grassroots that Mairi McAllan is being groomed for the top job at some point. That really would be the end of it all as far as I'm concerned. She is exactly the sort of lightweight, insipid, 'whichever way the wind blows' career politician that has sucked the life out of the SNP.
      Flynn is the only one who will make waves. It has to be him.

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    2. Flynn is all flash and no fire. He's a devolutionist and has no plan for independence nor much interest in it.

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    3. Tell us the basis of your comment. As I said Stephen Flynn is probably a non-runner but who would you suggest? Or do you just dismiss the observations and leave it at that?

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    4. 7.30pm - you expect your opinion to be taken seriously but you can’t even post a comment properly. Whose comment are you referring to - who knows because you don’t say.

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