Holyrood list voting intentions of those who would currently vote Yes in an independence referendum:
SNP 55%
Greens 11%
Labour 10%
Alba 8%
Reform UK 7%
Liberal Democrats 5%
Conservatives 5%
(Bear in mind the usual health warning that Norstat regularly overstate Alba's support.)
Holyrood list voting intentions of those who would currently vote No in an independence referendum:
Conservatives 32%
Labour 27%
Reform UK 18%
Liberal Democrats 15%
SNP 3%
Greens 2%
Alba 1%
What's striking here is just how appallingly badly the SNP do among No voters. They're sometimes accused (sometimes even by me) of abandoning independence, but the public clearly don't see it that way, because if it wasn't for the support of Yessers, the SNP would barely even exist as an electoral force. Reform UK do more than twice as well among Yes voters as the SNP do among No voters - perhaps due to the significant minority of Yessers who support Brexit, or perhaps due to the immigration issue.
How Reform UK voters on the Holyrood list would vote in a Scottish independence referendum:
Yes 32%
No 68%
There are no figures for how current Brexiteers and Remainers would vote on the Holyrood list - only for Remain and Leave voters from the actual 2016 referendum.
Holyrood list voting intentions of those who voted Remain in the 2016 EU referendum:
SNP 36%
Labour 20%
Conservatives 12%
Greens 10%
Liberal Democrats 10%
Reform UK 6%
Alba 5%
Holyrood list voting intentions of those who voted Leave in the 2016 EU referendum:
Conservatives 28%
Reform UK 25%
SNP 19%
Labour 12%
Liberal Democrats 8%
Alba 4%
Greens 2%
Also of interest is the breakdown by country of birth, which does not follow the pattern you'd intuitively expect. 6% of English-born respondents would vote Reform UK, compared with 13% of Scottish-born respondents. Bear in mind, though, that the English-born subsample is relatively small, so the results may not be statistically reliable.
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Not a surprise to me.
ReplyDeleteNothing surprises me. Not a thing. I could write a book.
DeleteThanks for the break-down, James. It's largely what I'd expect, actually.
ReplyDeleteJohn Curtice has spoken many times about the realignment of Yes voters to the SNP and No voters away from it. I've criticised the party long and hard for all their pitching towards No voters by backpedalling on indy and "governing for all Scots, not just independence supporters." As you see: the SNP is catastrophically unpopular among anti-independence Scots.
Simply put: going soft on indy is a choice, not an imperative. The devolutionist wing of the SNP is doing the party no favours by dismaying its Yesser base in the hopes of attracting unionists who despise them.
The third of current Reform supporters who are pro-independence are an interesting group. Those I know personally are in it to make a statement, as they feel gutted with the current state of Scottish politics (let alone UK). I suspect that a good chunk of those Yes/Reform voters would come back to us if the SNP got serious about indy. And obviously, given how they answered the question, they are already in the bag for Yes.
DeleteThe crucial group that's really in play is No/Remainers. They're the ones most likely to get us to a solid, sustained majority for Yes. That 20% of all voters who are currently Labour supporters and voted Remain, they are the top target for us. There's lots of them, and they are going to feel miserable with the inevitable rise of Farage in England. Nothing Starmer's doing is easing their fears.
DeleteThe minority of Labour voters who are Yessers—and remained with Labour through the bad years, too—are often spoken about on the left of the Yes movement as our crucial group. Mind, they voted Yes by and large and 45% total didn't do us much good. It's the No voting Labour folk that must come next. Europe is a strong lever, and Farage is jumping madly on the other end of it.
Another detail: look at how the Lib Dems split on the two referendum issues. It's strikingly different.
ReplyDeleteThey are fairly evenly split 10-8 towards Remain, with a very large minority of their support being Leavers. That's not what their super European image would have led you to expect in 2016 (which as James says is still the reference point in these figures). But all you need to do is look at where the Lib Dems seats are on a map. Their strongholds by and large voted to Leave. Their voters didn't get the memo.
Meanwhile, on Scottish independence, the Libs are 5-15 for No. That's a massive 25/75 thumping win for No. They're much less open minded on Scotland! This jibes very well with the Lib Dems I know—all of them hard core unionists, and very willing to vote Tory or Labour indiscriminately just to keep the Nats Out. It's also the message from their leadership: the Lib Dems are where you go if you're wooly on social issues but love the union.
As Sun Tsu said: know your enemies. No point targeting the Liberals. They despise independence overwhelmingly, and they're indifferent now on Europe. They'll oppose us at every turn.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteYes, I think what this shows more than anything is that the Lib Dem vote in Scotland these days is primarily an anti-SNP tactical vote. This is borne out by their results in recent elections, where they've tended to do extremely well in the handful of constituencies where, historically, they've been the dominant unionist force, but lose their deposits (or come close to it) virtually everywhere else. And it stands to reason. I mean, what do they actually stand for? As you point out, it's certainly not the EU these days. Devoid of any actual principles, all they have left is militant unionism.
DeleteACH is the least Lib Dem person imaginable. He really is a nasty right wing tory/reform wannbe. Charles Kennedy must be birling in his grave.
Delete"Yes 32% No 68%". I actually make that Yes 28% No 72% from the list figures but it is late.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't surprise me though, as I still think a large part of the Reform UK vote is a protest vote, scunnered with all the other parties. And another factor is that 500,000 missing SNP votes in the general Election - not all perhaps stayed at home.
That was me, yesindyref2.
Delete"I actually make that Yes 28% No 72%"
DeleteYou're looking at the wrong table - it's the one below that (likely voters excluding undecided).
Thanks :-)
DeleteIt’s the folk that currently won’t vote or not registered but are open to support independence that would help get us a higher % vote.
ReplyDeleteHmmm...not sure I agree with that. Of course it's important to get as many of them registered and voting as possible, but I agree with Anon at 11.15 - the really big potential lies with No/Remainers.
DeleteInteresting to compare but aren’t the non voters a larger pool?
ReplyDeleteDoesn't matter - you're never going to persuade more than a modest percentage of them to vote.
DeleteIt makes more sense if you consider two possibilities:
ReplyDelete1) A chunk of these Reform voters are older, more socially conservative former-SNP voters who have defected to Reform for reasons other than the constitutional debate
and/or
2) These are generally anti-establishment/protest voters who will vote against their perceptions of the status quo. They would have been Sanders/Trump voters in the US.
My own parents would vote yes and reform, make of that what you will.
ReplyDeletePreviously quite left wing people too. Think the world has left them a little bit.. finding the twitter tik tok world a bit other worldly
To say I don't think they would consider themselves "socially conservative " either.. Just a bit fd off with the wokey
DeleteI know plenty of folk considering the same action. Reform is the "FUCK ALL OF YOU!" option, and it's looking attractive just to try it.
DeleteHow did we get here? Everyone's heard of the "boiling a frog" analogy. As toady as Farage looks—honestly, even among ugly politicians he's a startlingly grotesque looking man—the frog on slow boil is the public and the heat is the flames of neoliberalism laced with intolerant woke.
Your parents would vote Reform, who would scrap the NHS and the Human Rights Act? A couple of loose screws there.
DeleteWee walker , my parents are lovely people who wouldn't judge you so witheringly. You have a great evening.
DeleteI'd suggest those voting reform are not doing so to ban the NHS and have us off to the gulag.. youre wee straw man is struggling there
The human rights act is being abused though by unscrupulous lawyers for issues it was not intended for.
DeleteEvery mainstream party would quietly love to get rid and have a new updated code but the fallout would be spectacular.
Farage wants to replace the NHS by privatised medical insurance, your parents weren't aware of that ? Anon 7.01 argument is straight out of Tufton Street. Cameron tried to replace the HRA with a Mickey Mouse 'Bill of British Rights ' But he couldn't find a fag packet to write it on.
DeleteO/T but I see Campbell has the begging bowl out again. Strangely he has not commented on recent Alba happenings. Perhaps not even he can defend what is happening.
ReplyDeleteI know you want to try to appear clever but you must try harder. Alba? Using the Herald as a source? It’s on a par with the BBC and, surprise surprise, WOS. Expecting another gender or police investigation post any minute now. Always gets the frothers going.
DeleteI've deleted a couple of comments there, but I'll just note how much one of the two sounded like Yvonne Ridley. Hi Yvonne, if that was you.
DeleteRidley. I'd forgotten about Alba's resident supporter of Islamist terror groups. What a freak show that party is.
DeleteI've said this before but I will not even consider voting Alba if they run Ridley as a candidate. I don't care if they do it in my own region or another region. Her presence would put them beyond the pale. She's an extremist.
DeleteShe's an interesting case. I don't think Yvonne is a British asset, but she's inherently foolish and rash enough to still behave like one, even without a handler.
Delete@12:38 Comment of the day! I don't agree with you but I like the way you put it!
DeleteSerendipitous timing. In the latest Westminster voting intention poll from Find Out Now (field work 11th December, sample population 2,659), Labour maintain a one percent lead from …. Reform UK.
ReplyDeleteOn a wider point, Farage is the only mainstream political leader (Swinney included) who refrains from infantilising the electorate. In the run up to our 4th July, shit buffet, Farage acknowledged that a coup de tat had taken place in Kyiv in 2014.
You do know how he described Brexit supporters?
DeleteFagash is interested in only two things - attention and grifting.
DeleteHe also likes the booze, ciggies, and the taste of a certain Donald's bunghole.
DeleteThe fact that Farage spouts the Kremlin line about the Maiden Revolution which ousted a President that was increasingly autocratic and under the wing of Putin, like Lukashenko; a revolution that repealed undemocratic changes to the constitution and put that constitution back to where it was in 2004, says much about Farage.
DeletePeople are disillusioned with politics just as they where after the Wall Street crash which heralded in snake oil salesmen around the world. Farage, Le Pen, Trump, Bolsonaro and Milei are modern day snake oil purveyors. Easy answers and a dollop of othering to woe those bereft of hope that conventional politics will deliver anything.
Like Trump, Farage waves away a background of wealth and privilege and tells people he is a man of the people. That people believe them is incredible...but people believe a lot of incredible things.
There is a patriot vote which has been dormant, the other parties seem to frown upon traditional English culture. Im not surprised many have had enough.
DeleteUkraine was unable to reconcile a pro eu west and a less enthusiastic east and south. A huge minority of Ukrainians didn't like the toppling of the govt and in the south Hungarian, their mother tounge was banned.
DeleteThese are facts, not talking points and I'm not fan of Putin the despot. The situation is far more complex than is presented by either side.
I think the only point I would disagree with is "huge minority". However, it is clear about 20% are unreconciled to the aspirations of Kyiv. Ultimately a negotiated settlement will likely see Crimea and the Donbas ceded to Russia. However, Putin clearly wants so much more and is prepared to sacrifice huge numbers of young Russians to achieve more. That the toxic frog leans towards Russia in all this troubles me greatly.
DeleteScotland is only 9% of the UK. A relatively ignorant foreigner passing judgement could as easily dismiss our concerns. 20% in a concentrated area means something.
DeleteUkraine was at war for years before many even took notice. Ironically Putin has made Kiev be viewed far more as a western European capital than it was previously. Noone saw Kiev as similar to Paris like they do now even a few years ago. Half the people with Ukraine flags up couldn't find Kiev on a map in 2015 never mind knew there was a war on.
Whoever courted Kiev on EU membership and had nato whispering in its ear has blood on their hands. The apple cart did not need upended. The world's not fair and it's run by super powers. The benefit has not been realised from that attempted change of the status quo, in my opinion. Putin is a tyrant though and is going to have a victory. It was all so unnecessary.
Deleteno one cares about the made up non country "ukraine" - only UK shills and "people who hate russia" because "the czar killed my great grandad"
Deleteread jacques baud, or mackinder, or the grand chessboard, or the rand report on "extending russia"; now put together with the fact that russia has more natural wealth in the ground than anywhere else in the world ... and you might work it out
DeleteHandandShrimp @ 10:34. Dude, it ain’t a “Revolution” if a bureaucratic apparatchik from the US State Department (in this case Victoria “fuck the EU Nuland) gets to pick your next President.
DeleteJust because people like Nuland try to turn situations to their liking (when do the Kissingers and Nulands not) doesn't negate what actually happened on the ground. The Ukrainians wanted a closer tie in with the EU economy and they still do. That may not wet the likes of Nuland's sponge but that was a driving force in the Maidan uprising. Yanukovych was under a lot of pressure from Russia to not sign the EU deal and in the end even some in his own party ditched him. The parliament vote to remove him was large. Against expectations Ukraine has held out for years against Russian aggression. That would not have happened if the revolution and it's aspirations were merely a coat of paint over a foreign coup.
DeleteWhatever happens, Putin's war will have cost both Russia and Ukraine dearly.
I don't think anyone serious claims western Ukrainians broadly wish to be in the EU and feel strongly Ukrainian and deserve respect for their fighting the invader.
DeleteIt's the other parts of ukraine who also died on the other side too, though. There clearly wasn't been a united Ukranian response. That's the issue at hand.
Ukraine were and are fighting each other as well as Russians. This gets very little coverage.
DeleteThe donbass has been managed by mayors from Ukraine. It's not like it's all Russians and no Ukrainians in the east. It's a divided country presented to us as one side is the real Ukraine.
Okay Vlad
DeleteStarmer is a gift to us albeit a dangerous one. His imperative of staying onside with the ideologies of unregulated capitalism seriously alienates traditional, mildly progressive Labour voters.They have to be our area of growth.
ReplyDeleteFor all its faults The National seems to have grasped this in its own clunky way.
Reform voters with a YES past are a depressing little crew. Either their vision of a new Scotland is pretty unpleasant or they are sufficiently witless to not see the potential outcomes of their own actions.
An interesting post.
27% of Yes voters planning to vote for a unionist party versus 6% of no voters planning to vote for independence supporting parties.
ReplyDeleteWings is putting the groundwork to back reform at next election. As the common sense, Elon Musk party. A softer approach on independence and they will take even more votes.
ReplyDeleteI can certainly see Wings coming out for Farage, but there's no way Reform will ever take a softer line on independence. Brit Nat Ultraism is encoded in the party's DNA.
DeleteStu will claim every bit of credit that he can, ofc, but the "wings" Reform are rising on are the BBC's. Farage is never off the screen. Hasn't been for a decade.
DeleteThe leader of Reform in Scotland voted Yes.
DeleteFarage is on the telly because people support him like it or not.
DeleteHe was on the telly way back in the Blair years, too, well ahead of any electoral breakthrough. The BBC really likes him. He makes a great liberal hate figure and "voice of the common man" rolled into one. Controversy in a tin. Just put him in front of the camera and you're good as gold. Pure media cynicism.
DeleteThat's what makes him the English Donald Trump. They are both media creations. Nothing real about either of them. They lie and steal like opportunistic thieves invited into a bank vault.
Have you watched the bbc output recently? Far more people watch their woke dramas and soaps than ever see Farage.
DeleteWhat are you trying to say here anyway? That his views, shared by many even in the Blair years, should be censored? Ask many Britons in 2003 what their view on immigration or British culture was and I think you'd be surprised.
You mistake me for a right-on, censorious cultural "liberal." They don't say "woke", so you should be able to tell that I’m not one. I live in a scheme in Edinburgh—yeah, we have them too—and the attitudes around here are not exactly "send us your poor, your sick, your lazy and your Jihadis."
DeleteYou guessed correctly that I don't watch the BBC though. I gave up on them after indyref. Haven't paid the licence fee since.
Back in the Blair era, though, I did watch them and Farage was everywhere. I gather he's still a fixture on Question Time and their favourite talking head on the news. Certainly I see his ugly mug on the news stands I pass by, and he keeps on coming up in political conversation, too. He's just as established as Donald. But unlike his American hero, he already achieved his life's goal—tearing us from the EU—and there's no such thing as term limits in England. Farage's best years of havoc could still be ahead of him.
Anon at 11.48. British culture š Nae such thing: there's Scottish, English, Welsh and Irish cultures. Farage is on the BBC a lot because he's got buddies high up in corporation. Nope he shouldn't be censored, he should be laughed at for the spiv he is.. Notice that he never sets foot in Scotland, he's feart.
DeleteFair enough. I agree with much of that.
DeleteI used British culture as a catch all .. Just didn't want to list it all out. My wording is accurate. You don't write out all the European countries do you when taking about a general European culture do you?
DeleteAnd you'll find no bigger proponent of Scottish distinct culture than me but we share many cultural norms with our neighbours let's not kid ourselves.
Brit nats like you?
ReplyDeleteEh?
DeleteBidh?
DeleteSi.
DeleteWhy is it surprising that some Independence supporters hold conservative views?
ReplyDeleteI don't even think Reform are conservative per se. They're a revolt against a system.
DeleteExactly. Reform are vote Leave eight years on. A large group of people who feel they are being consistently short changed by society and not listened to by politicians. It should be no surprise that they are making inroads in Scottish politics.
DeleteThere's always been a large minority of independence supporters who are politically conservative. Fergus Ewing is their exemplar. Your Perthshire, Angus, Morayshire, Aberdeenshire SNP voters are, if anything, more anti-Labour than they are pro-Independence. Indyref certainly showed that in the results.
DeleteReform's vote is more urban working class. You can see it in the council bye results. They fall flat in posh spots but flourish in traditional Labour heartlands.
Totally agree with the points here. To me telling people their socially conservative when they're actually quite left wing but against much of what is deemed progressive nowadays just insults them at pushes them more into the hands of Reform too.
DeletePurple haired 20-something canvasser lectures a Yesser from their own doorstep:
Delete"So, you're telling me we have 'too many migrants' and you're seriously worried about 'losing our culture' as 'our own young folk' are leaving Scotland whenever they have the chance? That's appalling! You should be ashamed of yourself! You don't deserve to vote for the Scottish Greens and we refuse your vote! Go and support Farage, why don't you. Watch him privatise the NHS! You people make me sick."
Winning hearts and minds.
at some point, "the left" turned from being about the miners and class, and unions and rights and wages - and about mutilating childrens genitals and allowing paedos to setup shop in the primary schools ...
Delete"what happened to the left"
identity politics destroyed the left; it is the "leftwing" of neoliberalism only
also a job for life for every racial grifter who can find racism in a packet of digestives; aamer anwar filling his pockets, like the grasping paki newsagent he really is
DeleteUniversity ruined the left. All this Puritanical identitarian guff comes straight out of uni, not just the culture on campus but the course content itself. Queer theory, intersectionality, gender studies, and countless more I've not even heard of. Who teaches this stuff? And more to the point: who on Earth needs it?
DeleteIt's no surprise that the US is split between "college educated" and "non-college" voters. That same dynamic is playing out over here. If you go to Stirling Uni you get very "Queered" indeed, and a career in left politics opens up for you to ruin things for all of us.
12.47 I'm no fan over racialising everything but you are unambiguously a racist.
DeleteSome of you lot need to get off the Internet and YouTube.
DeleteThe real world in Scotland is not thinking in these terms.
23:52 Mary Whitehoose lives !
DeleteThe SNP used to be accused of being the big mouthed troublemakers, now they're the silent majority calmly smiling at the big mouthed internet troublemakers screaming at each other
ReplyDeleteSNP, the settled will of the people
Keep on barking for the union, KC. You've nothing else to do, I see.
Deleteit is the settled will of the scot to watch another man fuck his wife forevermore and to hand over his wages to an ingrate
DeleteAnon@12:43,
DeleteWhat a mentally you have!
Typical of a Nat who somehow thinks independence is a good idea I suppose.
Your wife says mind to pick up some more lube while you're at the chemist. Hurry back, she's not waiting for you.
DeleteI doubt that Reform have much of a settled idea on much, but their policy of NHS workers not paying taxes is entertaining. I get the feeling that the NHS is the largest employer in places like Aberdeen, so there goes the money. No idea what their immigration policies are other than there are a remarkable number of Bengali Deliverooists and people shouldn't sail to Dover in a toy dinghy.
ReplyDeleteIf we could just get a grip and control immigration sensibly, it wouldn't be any kind of problem. Demographically, we need more folk, after all. The trouble is, it's always uncontrolled and swamps poorer local areas with large new populations, which integrate slowly if at all. Where's the new housing to accommodate them? Where's the boost in services, too? Where's the joined up thinking?
DeleteOh yeah: neoliberalism says to go lump it, and dinnae be intolerant!
Where, in Scotland, has been 'swamped' like that?
DeleteIm not sure i agree wholeheartedly with the commentor but youd have to be walking around blind if people cant see the recent change. Have you been to paisley recently? I couldn't believe the state of wellmeadow st when I was there last week.
DeleteSee Paisley and Glasgow quite regularly.
DeleteGot family and friends down in that general area.
Can't say I've noticed much overall change.
Wow, well if you can't see that then fair enough. Can't really take this anywhere from that.
DeletePardon?
DeleteI have just told you I have family and friends in that area and when I said that I don't see much to concern me, neither do they.
They did, however, tell me about a small handful of Racist, right-wing Trash who turned up outside the Watermill Hotel a wee while ago to 'protest' about some asylum seekers being housed there, but who were hugely outnumbered by a much bigger crowd of decent folk who told them to fuck off.
Paisley Buddies are lovely people.
Pardon?
DeleteIf you can't see the difference on that street you're simply not being genuine. Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing is a different chapter of another book but denying reality is like debating with a senseless tomato .
These hotels weren't like that less than ten years ago were they? You asked for changes. You've just evidenced one. Well done. So you're not blind.
I already said I didn't necessarily agree with commentary of benefit or disadvantage of these changes. I prob err towards benefit overall. Merely that theyre obvious and can be seen even in census.
Ah......so you are purely talking about 'changes' in ONE Paisley Street?
DeleteNot really surprising I haven't noticed it then, is it.
As for the hotel mentioned.....I have no idea if it has been used like this before, as I am not privy to their previous clientelle and don't station myself outside their front door to watch exactly who arrives and leaves
In any case, with only a paltry 49 rooms, who really cares.
You seem to be agitated by this 'change' in Wellmeadow Street.
What 'change' are you referring to?
It's a dump right in the centre and the council have dumped people there without infrastructure or resources to support properly. You asked for a representation of a change and you have received it and evidenced another one yourself, small or otherwise. As the initial commentary said there's an obvious increase in immigration into the town without any joined up thinking. People living 4 to a room. It's a disgrace and wasn't the case even pre-pandemic in the same levels.
DeleteFalkirk has a hotel closed now as well and the school system has more English as a foreign language sky rocketed.
DeletePeople are wondering why ASN in schools has gone from 5% to 41% since 2007? Part of it is the huge immigration since brexit ironically as English as second language soars.
We're seeing a radical change to the ethnicity of the population. In 2014 people thought the youth vote would eventually outnumber the dying NO voters. The scale of immigration didn't even feature as a factor in many people's thoughts.
It's really interesting how Salmond was able to bring particularly Asians into buying a Scottish identity. This was a particular grouping who are now 2nd and 3rd generation. It'll be interesting to see if the SNP can mount this with the burgeoning African population. It'll be really important to ensure this widening Scottish identity as the native Scot population has reduced substantially since SNP first came to power.
I seem to remember that area being a big of dump for many years previously and heard a lot of it was due to be knocked down/redeveloped.
DeleteI agree it is not best placed to put asylum seekers.
As for '4 to a room' I grew up in a 'single-end' in a family of five.
Whether myth or true scotland has taken pride in being less racist than England. But it was easy to do when we were 95% Scottish and the immigrant population was concentrated in small areas. Scottish culture didn't feel under threat in any way whatsoever, so the smaller population was subsumed. As it gets bigger things can change.
DeleteI worry that with the democratic route to independence being blocked for now, independence probably requiring a super majority to get going again..a subset of the movement may become more insular as a result and fear the majority becomes less achievable as national identity weakens. I hope I'm wrong but sense Refrom picking up a threatened grouping of Scottish voters.
Eh?
DeleteDuring me lifetime, there has been a massive increase in people from England settling up here and substantial amounts from Europe and beyond, all of which I, personally, have welcomed.
I always thought it was a real credit to Scotland's attractiveness and the welcoming nature of most Scots and am old enough to remember when the opposite happened and we lost population size most years in my childhood.
I also never felt that my 'national identity' was under threat from them - and nor do the vast majority of Scots according to the last few Censuses.
So why on earth would I feel that 'national identity' to be under threat now, when the relatively tiny amount of asylum seekers are already dwarfed by those I previously mentioned?
One final thing - for almost my entire life, the Far Right ( like Reform ) could never really get a good foothold up here, irrespective of the very large numbers of English and Europeans making their homes here.
Their polling was miniscule.
If that is changing now, because of a MUCH smaller number of asylum seekers coming in, then I believe RACISM is playing a substantial part.
Youre under the mistaken viewpoint that the prognosis was aimed at your feelings on the matter.
DeleteIt was a comment on how other people may feel and the repercussions.
Funny we're even having these conversations.. almost like some Scottish people are seeing the country become less Scottish. Wouldn't get a foothold years ago because .. look at the census and you'll see..bugger all to do with asylum. Tiny subset of a much wider change blatantly clear for people to see.
DeleteWhat blatant 'wider change' are you referring to?
DeleteMore immigrants. What part of that is hard to grasp?
DeleteMore immigrants. The Irish immigrants were once targeted by those who thought it would 'dillute our Scottishness'. by the McMosleys of the 30s. Now we have the McFarages spouting similar shit about migrants.
DeleteAnon @ 7.49
DeleteYou do realise that it is an accepted fact ( many different studies/sources ) that Scotland NEEDS an inflow of around 10,000 IMMIGRANTS every single year, to keep our economy going in the right direction, because our indigenous birth-rate is falling off a cliff and the number of non-working pensioners claiming their state pensions is rising rapidly?
We NEED more immigrants.
Yes we may need them but as a result the proportion of Scots is falling off a cliff and people see that as a threat to a unified national identity. Like it or not.
DeleteYou're right Scotlands scottish population is falling substantially.. that's what we can all see.. make whatever arguments you wish ..but don't insult people's intelligence by pretending the obvious isn't happening in front of our eyes.
We could try to increase the birth rate by the way.. it's happened before and crashed. Immigrants get old too.
DeleteThe horse has bolted anyway. No point in getting het up about it but dramatic change will have a consequence. Best to recognise it, make the arguments amd consider how it affects future Yes movement than pretend no change is occurring.
To ge brutally honest, pal - ANYONE who is so utterly dense as to not understand the demogeaphic and economic NEED for substantial, continuing immigration into Scotland when SO MUCH evidence is readily available, does not have much 'intelligence" in the first place.
DeleteIn the second place - what is your definition of a 'Scot'?
Mine is what my brilliant father taught me - Anyone who lives here, loves the Country and wants to be part of its future, INCLUDING recent immigrants.
Not once have I disputed the need for immigrants in this country. Indeed my view is the opposite of what you appear to think it is. You've been going off on one totally missing the point having your own wee meltdown. At least, belatedly, you've admitted the demographic is changing and people are noticing it.
DeleteYou're sort of condescending, patronising attitude is EXACTLY WHY people voted for the ill fated Brexit. Look I can capitalise random words too. Ain't I smart.
Don't you mean the demogeaphic and economic NEED for a lot more unprotected sex?
DeleteNever understood this everyone gets to be a Scot after 5 minutes. Yeah no problem, be a Scottish citizen but there's nothing actually wrong with being a foreigner. If you're born in Scotland and want to be Scottish you're Scottish..but if you're Argentinian and you get your British citizenship, you're no Scottish just for living here..
DeleteI lived in Spain for a few years when I was younger but imagine if I was going about saying I'm Spanish. Bizarre.
Mandatory watching YouTube videos of the White Heather Club for persons wanting to live in Scotland
DeleteAnon @ 9.10.
DeleteI am still trying to figure out what your 'point' actually is.
You seem to be trying to allege that some folk might be upset by what they 'notice happening' with immigration - when what they see happening is actually beneficial to Scotland and its future.
If they are so utterly dumb that they cannot understand that - no matter the plethora of available evidence - I really could not care less about what they 'think'.
I am far more concerned with the FACT that we need continuing and regular influxes of immigrants to keep our economy healthy for my kids and grandkids.
Thankfully, the vast majority of my fellow rational Scots understand that.
"You seem to be trying to allege that some folk might be upset by what they 'notice happening' with immigration "
DeleteWell done. Got there in the end. Yes, I'm noting people are noticing it and we need to be wise to it.
The rest is superfluous and not been in dispute although you seem to keep lecturing on about it.
'Being wise' to the Denseness of Dummies has always been a thing, pal.
DeleteOh dear, the racists, mysoginists and deviants have just woken up for lunch
ReplyDeleteAwa' tae the Greens with your pearl-clutching! How very dare anyone discuss anything in frankness!
DeleteAwa Tae Reform, Muppet
Delete5.4 million people in Scotland, we're not exactly full up, the British have made sure we can't increase our size or we'd get too much of a say in things
ReplyDeleteYes true those coming would all be yes voters and see scotland as a nation. Good point.
DeleteAs someone who vote Yes in 2014, and SNP for many years thereafter before Reform this year - none of this surprises me in the slightest.
ReplyDeleteI've met more than a few yea supporters scunnerd with the SNP, and not feeling the love for the immigration that has changed Scotland quite radically for better or worse, lived experience hasn't matched the rhetoric. It's a strange world that they can't see what reform represents for Scotland, but it might also reflect the fact that the movement doesn't politically represent the whole breadth of yes opinion
ReplyDeleteTartan Tories.
DeleteIn my opinion, the Reform Party relies very heavily on EXACTLY the same type of RACIST IMBECILITY which drove the BrexSHIT Vote.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately a small percentage of folk in Scotland will tread that moronic path with Farage & Co.and will also use the well-tried verbal skitter that spews out the bold Nigel's gub, to justify their choice.
To be pitied and scorned.
David Francis is the one guy who buys the New European from the newsagents eh.
DeleteI knew they had to be printing them for somebody.
It has big words in it, pal.
DeleteWaste of time for the likes of you.
What's your taste?
Mail, Express, Torygraph, Sun, Record.....?
El PaĆs or Sunday Times tends to be my choice with an espresso. Thanks for asking.
DeleteIt's quite funny as I'm as anti brexit as anyone, I just find those still prosecuting the case with this UTTER sureness of what makes everyone else tick, and the self righteousness tedious and a bit funny.
The 'know it all' tone is driving folk to laugh and do the opposite if what you want.
Lol.
DeleteYou mean like the UTTER sureness of what newspaper I read?
Like that?
I think you need to take a wee look in the mirror, pal.
And forgive me if I get a tad upset about an event which is costing Scotland many, many £Billions every single year and which we voted massively against.
I don't find that self-righteous, tedious or funny - and I will continue to maintain that RACISM was the basic driving force behind it.
Whether you agree, or not, is of absolutely no interest to me.
David Francis appears to be someone with a high opinion of himself.
DeleteWrong.
DeleteJust a low opinion of Anon Clowns like you.
I guess the Poles in Scotland don't have their own big fitba teams yet. There seems to be an amnesia about the history of Irish migrants in Scotland.
ReplyDeleteScotland and Ireland have been emigrating between each other for a millenia and are even the same ethnic group with virtually the same culture. Not so people from Abuja.
DeleteThe Church of Scotland complained in the 1930s about the effect of Irish migration on the Scottish race. Today's racists target third world immigrants.
DeleteI know they did and they were wrong. I still don't want a Glasgow that's like London (ie not a scottish city but just a collection of people from everywhere). If that makes me bad so be it. I'm not against anybody or targeting anybody. I agree there should be a controlled immigration policy like all the mainstream parties. 1m a year net is too much as accepted by those parties.
DeleteGosh, wouldn't Scotland have been a better place had those Italians, Poles, Chinese, Asians not arrived during the 20th century!
DeleteMissing the point. I wouldn't exist if it wasn't for it! It's taking it to extremes which is the problem. Controlled is the point
DeleteNot sure why it would surprising that a bunch of Reform voters support independence - I mean that's a big part of the party's ethos.
ReplyDeleteReform= Little Englanders.
Delete"I mean that's a big part of the party's ethos."
DeleteNo it isn't. Who on earth gave you that idea?