Wednesday, January 17, 2024

Any damage caused by a split vote at the general election will be the fault of *all* pro-indy parties - and it's the responsibility of all pro-indy parties to find a way of preventing that damage

My experiment with switching off pre-moderation in the comments section to allow for more free-flowing debate has been surprisingly successful so far (although give it time - it always goes wrong eventually!).  We've had genuine interaction from people across the different divides of the independence movement, which could make Scot Goes Pop one of the few forums where that actually happens. Generally people have become quite ghettoised on other blogs and in the various social media spaces.

One of the main points of difference on recent threads has been on the question of whether independence supporters need to unite behind the SNP at a general election conducted under first-past-the-post, or whether more can be achieved with Alba or ISP, or whether we'd all be better off abstaining or spoiling our ballots.

Let's start with the easy part - the latter would be a monumentally stupid thing to do.  Abstaining or spoiling your ballot has exactly the same effect - as an independence supporter you are ensuring that your view is not even recorded, thus indirectly boosting the unionist share of the vote and helping to take independence off the table.  Scrawling the word "INDEPENDENCE" across the ballot paper as the means of spoiling your ballot does not help in the slightest, because there will be no record that you did that - it'll just go down as a spoilt ballot like any other.

So of course we all should be voting and we should all be voting for a pro-independence party or candidate. But it's certainly true that first-past-the-post means that in an ideal world, there would be just one pro-indy candidate to unite behind in each constituency.  We should be maintaining our traditional precious advantage of the unionist vote being divided multiple ways while our own vote is united.  At the moment it looks like the complete opposite will happen, and that's actually everyone's fault - SNP, Green, Alba, ISP alike.  It's the SNP's fault for rejecting the Scotland United proposal out of hand, and for not even at the very least seeing the obvious sense that Angus MacNeil's vote must not be split in the Western Isles if Labour are to be stopped there.  It's Alba's fault for reacting to the rejection of Scotland United by indicating that a large number of candidates will be put up against the SNP in SNP-held seats, when it would have been far more constructive and strategically wise to concentrate all of Alba's resources on defending the two seats that are currently Alba-held.  It's the Greens' fault for bizarrely wanting to take on the SNP in more constituencies now that the two parties are in coalition with each other, rather than seizing what would seem to be an obvious opportunity for a sensible electoral pact.  And certainly ISP can be justly criticised for making such an early announcement on a widespread intervention in the general election, which probably made it harder for Alba not to follow suit.

As most of you know, I'm a member of Alba, and I accept the democratic decision of the party to stand in more than two seats, even though I doubt its wisdom, and if my own constituency has an Alba candidate I will of course vote Alba.  However I do think all parties need to step back from the brink before real damage is done by a split vote, because the priority in this election has to be to keep the independence cause alive.  I think the perception in Alba, at least in some quarters, is that there are other priorities, for example to put the option of independence genuinely on the ballot paper in circumstances where the SNP are refusing to say that a vote for themselves would lead to independence.  I'm not convinced by that line of argument, because when the results come in, the media and political establishment will not be making that distinction - seats the SNP hold will be seen as seats saved for the cause of independence, whereas seats the SNP lose, perhaps due to a split vote, will be interpreted as a sign that Scots are 'moving on' from the whole issue.

Potentially more convincing is the argument that large numbers of independence-supporting voters are moving across to Labour, and that they are not doing so exclusively as a crude impulse to "kick the Tories out" but also partly due to disillusionment with the SNP.  If there was a pro-indy party standing that was more attractive to those voters than the SNP, it might actually stop them drifting to Labour in the first place.  On that interpretation, the Greens and Alba would not be "splitting" the Yes vote by taking votes that would otherwise go to the SNP, but would be shoring up the overall combined pro-indy by taking votes that would otherwise harmfully drift to Labour.  I'm sceptical as to whether it would really work that way, but I accept that it's possible and we could probably do with a lot more opinion polling data to find out.

One absolutely crucial thing Alba have got to bear in mind, though, is the danger of a legend springing up that Labour only won certain seats because of Alba interventions.  If, say, there are three seats where Alba take 2% of the vote and where Labour's margin of victory is less than 2%, we'll hear a lot about Alba being "Labour's little helpers" and that will be a very difficult charge to defend against.  The real opportunity for Alba will arrive under proportional representation at the 2026 Holyrood election, and doing anything in the interim that tarnishes the party's standing with pro-indy voters would be very foolish.  Remember that Ralph Nader performed far more poorly in the 2004 US presidential election than he did in 2000, and. the overwhelming reason for that was the perception that he had helped George W Bush win in 2000.

Before we finish, a reminder that the Scot Goes Pop opinion poll fundraiser urgently needs a boost - let's not leave it in limbo for months.  It's important that not all Scottish opinion polling is commissioned by anti-independence clients - we need to make sure that occasionally questions are asked that Yes supporters want asked.  Donations can be made via the fundraiser page HERE.

However if you have a Paypal account the best way to donate is via direct Paypal payment, because that can totally eliminate fees depending on which option you select, and payment usually comes through instantly.  My Paypal email address is:

jkellysta@yahoo.co.uk

62 comments:

  1. We need to sort this out and it will be interesting to see the resolutions for the next SNP National Council (in mid March) when they're published.

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  2. Im torn between voting or walking away, I take on board what you say about not voting etc, but the system stinks and if we all decided that it needs to change then a boycot of voting is the only way to do that, and to make the politicians sit up, which will be bad in the short term, but may have some benefit in the long ?.

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    1. The only politicians who will sit up will be Labour politicians to say "thanks".

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    2. Anon at 1:09, are you being serious? You think we should all boycott the GE! That would effectively be killing off any hope of independence for years, unionists would be doing cartwheels.

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    3. No one owns my vote but me. I’m not voting for the SNP against my will. Not until they change. Not until they cut the crap and get back to independence.

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    4. James - the SNP politicians will also sit up and say "thanks mugs - can't believe they fell for it again. Let's get on with the important things like jury free trials, hate crime bill, conversion bill and all the rest" they will say we voted for even though it is not a Holyrood election. Scotland United for Independence is the answer. The politicians don't want it. Who created this division, and what a mess it is - Sturgeon, and she did it on purpose and then ran away. Yousaf is continuing on in the same vein as he promised he would do.

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    5. Anonymous at 1:33
      The SNP will not change until there is independence. The SNP sees itself as the only realistic way of achieving independence, and currently they're not wrong, which is why they're trying to appeal to everyone all at once. They can appeal to you because if they did, they will have no chance of winning over unonists. You can either hold your nose, or you can sit and complain inside this union.

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  3. I understand your reservations here James, but I would ask one question: which elected members are most likely to bring about independence, progress towards independence or improve the lot of those living in Scotland, MPs at this GE or MSPs at the next SGE?

    If it's the former, your widespread scorn is well justified, and maybe it is either way. If it's the next Holyrood election, and having dozens of SNP MPs wouldn't make the slightest actual difference to those thing I listed, there's an argument that this is the year to remind the SNP that independence needs to be their top priority.

    A pro-indy vote majority in this election, with only a handful of SNP MP's returned, might and probably should scare the Holyrood SNP leadership to work with other pro-indy parties and bodies and finally act on achieving self determination.

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    1. WM elections are all narrative and mood music, anyway. There is no credible circumstance that Scotland’s MPs will have any influence in government there anyway. Starmer’s going to pick a Scot for Home or Foreign Sec? How about a Scottish chancellor? Hahaha! We know this labour government will be English from top to bottom. Scotland’s only place at the table is the biscuit boy.

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  4. Sorry James, I get the logic of what you're saying but Anon@1:33 sums it up for me - my vote is for independence and I have no faith in the SNP as it is now to deliver it or even to attempt to do so.

    I'm not blind to the futility of Alba/ISP standing in a constituency election - they have no chance of a breakthrough - but if we can't make the SNP listen to our concerns, how else do we protest?

    The SNP needs to be shocked into rethinking its priorities before the next Holyrood vote comes around and shedding some of its MPs at Westminster is a price worth paying in my view. Many of them, like Pete Wishart, have been completely seduced by the place anyway.

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  5. I agree with the vast majority of what you say James.
    If pro independence parties do what they say they’re going to do, and compete against each other in multiple seats, then we’re in serious danger of shooting ourselves in the foot.
    If we end up losing half our seats at the GE (or even worse), then make no mistake, Keir Starmer is going to trumpet that independence is dead in the water and the issue shouldn’t be re visited for many years.
    People need to wake up to this before it’s too late.

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    1. Anonymous at 3.15pm - why the hell do you care so much about what Starmer says? In fact why do so many people care so much about what Britnat politicians say and do. I say F**k our colonial masters not bow to them. Stop your grovelling anonymice.

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    2. Ifs, it’s not just about what Starmers going to say though is it?
      You don’t appear to be grasping my point!

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    3. Anonymous here's a thistle grasp that for a while.

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  6. Everyone should be raising hell about the vote numbers on Hanvey's self-determination bill. Obviously it was never going to pass, but it's startling that only 57 Tories voted against and 147 Labour MPs did.

    That's something which should give pause to pro-independence voters thinking about backing Labour.

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    1. The many thousands of indy-supporting Scots who'll swing from SNP to Labour this year aren't reading the blogs, aren't showing up for marches, talking up knocking doors and getting out the vote, or weighing up the pros and cons of Alba. They're just scunnered by the total disappointment that's been the SNP these few years. They feel the general sense of stagnation and fatigue coming from the Scotgov. And, above all, they know that indy's not on the ballot and nowhere on the calendar.

      All of that is Nicola's doing as much as Sir Lord Right Bomberable Keir's. We're getting nothing because we did nothing while we had the chance. Now it's time to get punished for squandering our opportunity.

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    2. The Tories would be in the bars getting pissed and thinking about ways of sinking the small boats crossing the channel. Which SNP MPs didn't vote for Hanvey's bill? Did Flynn vote for it. Did Black vote for it? Did the majority go against their orders - is there a teeny weeny microscopic bit of independence gumption left in them or are they just trying to save their jobs?

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  7. Rob here, frankly, independence is dead under the current leadership and SNP-Westminster. If SNP MPs lose their seats, it's not like they're independence-minded MPs, how else do we mere plebs get the attention of our representatives or their leadership? I'm not so much against a boycott of some kind, I just don't believe it would be big enough to undermine the credibility of Unionist gains - which is a pity because a "Unionist-only" 30% turnout would be a hard one for the media to digest. Sadly a pipe dream.

    While I agree with you, James, that the GE hoopla will be Westminster focused, I would be astonished if certain long awaited court cases aren't very much alive in the background. There may be casualties aplenty whatever we do.

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  8. RP

    Unfortunately, I don't believe the next General Election is now about independence. It could have been if

    - Sturgeon's plan was united behind in January 2023

    - 15 polls (or whatever it was) for Yes in a row had been capitalised on and a united case made for "right to decide" front and centre

    - a genuine uniting of the Yes Scotland gang together again. An olive branch on Burn's night 2023 with Salmond, Sturgeon, Harvie, Sheridan, Slater, Brian Cox, Wishart, hell.. ..Euan Mcgregor..who knows ....at Stirling castle declaring a defacto expression of nationhood would be a united for yes ticket at the next UK election.

    - Sturgeon not resigning

    - Absence of fraud cases and corruption arrests


    I simply believe the 2014 referendum helped Yes as it was a prolonged campaign with a set date. I think it needs a year of 'getting ready', 'white paper stuff' and then campaigning. What I'm saying is, I think it's been left too late to get genuine buy in from voters that it is a defacto vote on Scotland expression for nationhood. In fact our own supposed side have let that drift.

    They now have no idea what the next election is about and don't have time to change the narrative. I don't like it, but thems the facts.

    I think the independence movement now needs to "hang on" and try to keep as many pro independence MPs as possible and work together to avert a complete doing, if it's not already inevitable. Unfortunately I also believe westminster is where a high mark can be achieved in the next decade as a UK election in Scotland is only really testing the independence question (or a flirt to Labour). In Holyrood, the SNP are burdened by 17 years of government and a sense that someone else deserves a chance on the normal day-to-day.

    My hope is we hang on enough in 2024, only lose mildly in 2026 and the real campaign for change is the next UK GE. I believe if independence is to happen it will happen in a second wind.

    Hell, if Labour can do nothing and just wait til everyone else becomes unpopular, an SNP in opposition can reap the rewards ten times on a flavour of change.

    Or we change leader to Joanna Cherry or similar and push a defacto vote. I just don't think there's enough time now. So we're left with the vapid nothingness of the current offer.

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  9. RP

    sorry wanted to also add a word of positivity. Half or more of our people actually support independence which is remarkable given the state of the party(ies) representing its cause. Most people I know voting Labour in my age group actually support independence, they just think the SNP have been in power too long for a wide variety of reasons. That well of support for independence will remain. It's just latent and waiting on a new surge.

    I'm hopeful good ship Independence will set sail once again in a glorious blast of fresh air. It just needs a new captain, a willing crew and people will want on board. It also needs to find it's happy go lucky humour again as a movement.

    Unfortunately it's in stormy seas at the moment and no captain will easily steer it out. It may need to be taken to harbour and repaired first.

    I'm sure it will.

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    1. I only wish half or more of our people supported independence.

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    2. RP

      What do you meàn? Of course they do. Nearly half, about half or just over half. It's not budged in years and it's fairly obvious to anyone living here you're as likely to meet a yes supporter as a no.

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    3. The problem is we need a sustained majority.
      “About half” will never get us another referendum.

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    4. I know, I'm just saying there is a good level of support which can be galvanised at some point. It does need a campaign though to galvanise it.

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    5. That’s fair comment.

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    6. Will these annoying anonymous posters who keep punting the same shit about Westminster giving approval for a referendum please explain why they would ever do that when they are certain to lose. You've punted your assertion endlessly - explain or be mocked for posting pish. They will never take that risk again even if the polls are at 25% yes but you seem to think they will if polls are at >60% for a sustained period. Totally arse over head logic.

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    7. Independence for Scotland, well you explain to us what good it’s going to do splitting the Nationalist vote, abstaining and spoiling ballot papers?
      How are the independence prospects going to look on the Friday morning after the GE, when the SNP have just lost twenty odd seats and the nationalist share of the vote was below 40%.
      I’d say, not good would be putting it mildly!

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    8. Independence for Scotland, Ive no idea where you're getting your line as reply to this post. Nowhere does anyone suggest Westminster are going to concede a referendum.

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    9. Anonymous at 7.36pm - see anonymous at 5.12pm and loads of others. Where do think a referendum will take place in France? Trying hard not to call you a numpty but it is very challenging.

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    10. Anonymous at 7.27pm asks me how are independence prospects going to look on the Friday morning after the GE. Answer - exactly the same as now - shit.

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  10. Regardless of what people think of the SNP, this really needs addressed before the GE. It looks as if the election is going to be bad enough, without the Indy vote being split.
    Some people don’t seem to understand how potentially damaging this could turn out for the Indy cause.

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  11. I find myself actually disappointed at what you wrote in the third paragraph.

    Your personal judgement there that you present as if undeniable fact is your interpretation. There is a good argument that it is in fact quite wrong. Both as a judgement and as a matter of fact.

    Carefully wording the exact thing that you are asserting is a polemecists trait that is intended to obscure the wider issues.

    Clearly its not my blog, and nobody cares if I find your opinionated opining to be obviously erroneous, but you do mostly do good work otherwise.

    Who knows, perhaps you will reconsider?

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    1. James, " opinionated opining " that gave me a good laugh - please don't do it again although I'm not sure what "it" is.
      Will you reconsider? - bookies say nae chance.

      I thought yesindyref2 was going to put his moniker on his posts instead of hiding behind anonymous.

      Personally, I may be writing Scotland is a Colony or Yousaf is an Anus or my current favourite Sturgeon the Betrayer on my ballot paper. Still working on the decision. Alternatives may come in to play in the run up to the election.

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    2. Which part of the third paragraph? As a likely abstainer myself, I obviously disagree with that particular message, too. But I recognise that it is a perfectly fair analysis, from a certain point of view.

      My own point of view, as I have posted here a few times now, is that a vote for the SNP is a vote for more of the same from the SNP. I won’t give them that. No sooner than I’d vote for a London based party.

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    3. "As a likely abstainer myself"

      Please don't just abstain, you just go down as a rainy day or bored slightly lower turnout statistic. Make the effort and get out and spoil your ballot - or get a postal vote and spoil that.

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  12. Anon@7:27, I couldn't agree more. I've said above I can see James' logic in this but there's no way I'm voting for 5 more years of waffle and inertia from the party. A unionist vote is out of the question so the only alternative is to be a 'vote splitter' with Alba/ISP or, if no candidate is available, it's abstain or spoil. How else do we get it through their thick skulls that we want deeds not words. I feel no guilt about it because the SNP have driven us to it and they won't change unless the voters kick them up the arse come election time.

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  13. "Abstaining or spoiling your ballot has exactly the same effect"

    That is absolutely wrong. Abstaining only affects turnout, so what's 1% or 2% less turnout? Must have been raining that day.

    Spoiling your ballot is recorded as - ballots spoilt, and apart from the likes of 2007 with two totally different voting systems in play, the normal is around just 100 spoilt ballots on average. If that doubles or trebles, THAT is a noticeable and remarkable statistic.

    This is also wrong:

    "as an independence supporter you are ensuring that your view is not even recorded"

    in two ways. Firstly, all ballot papers are stored and locked away for a year in case of any challenge to the result, such as almost happened in my constituency in 2007 to Kenneth Gibson who won by 40 votes (2 of them mine and my wife's). I think it was due to a lost ballot box (from Arran perhaps) which could have made all the difference.

    Secondly, candidates and agents get to inspect ALL spoilt ballots in case they can get some changed to a vote for them. So they all know if indeed, 486 ballots have "INDEPENDENCE" scrawled diagonally across most perhaps all of those extra 386 ballots.

    Used in an organised fashion, spoilt ballots can be the ONLY weapon left to frustrated voters, disenfranchised by the previous party of Independence. And wouldn't the media love it to bits.

    https://votingcounts.org.uk/spoilt-ballot

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    1. I think you're right there - a spoiled paper is at least a way of registering your disgust whereas abstentions will be dismissed as the usual voter apathy seen at every election. Ideally though you would have an indy candidate on the ballot from one of the minor parties (NOT the loopy Greens). They won't stand a chance of winning but if nobody votes for them we'll continue to be told how irrelevant they are.

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    2. I hear the WRITE SOMETHING ACROSS THE BALLOT argument. Maybe I’ll even do it. But here’s the thing about abstaining: many, many, many folk who’d never read a politics blog will be doing it, too. The SNP will see their vote figures plummet for both reasons. Sure, a few hundred COMMITTED SCRIBBLERS FOR INDY here and there will be in the mix, but the only thing they have their eye on: their own vote and the winning margin. Mainstream abstentions from disengaged Scots will send them into panic.

      Every one of us who’s ever marched for Indy or campaigned in earnest: we’re just the “anoraks”. They need shocked because they lost their base.

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  14. I cannot for the life of me see any point in abstaining or spoiling my ballot paper.

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    1. If the SNP are making "Make Scotland Tory Free", or "keep Starmer Honest", as their election slogans, what on earth differentiates the SNP from Labour, the Tories, UKIP, Reform UK, or Lib Dems - apart from they used to support Independence in the good old days, but not any more?

      Unless the SNP genu9inely make this next GE about Independence, and ONLY about Independence, a vote for the SNP is a wasted vote for an Indy supporter.

      "Keep Starmer Honest" FFS. Not a dry boak, a very wet one.

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  15. I don't see the point of SNP standing aside in any circumstances except when an incumbent is murdered as in the David Amiss and Jo Cox cases.

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    1. Anonymous at 8.39pm - I just don't see the point of the SNP.

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  16. If you are going to spoil your ballot my recommendation is make sure you do not write across any of the boxes as you might have voted for a Britnat.
    Remember they used to tell you a vote for the SNP is a wasted vote. Now it is a vote for Alba or ISP is a wasted vote say the SNP.

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  17. The only value in abstaining is if it is an organised mass abstention. Nae chance of that happening with the politicians we have. We need to be able to elect independence supporters not politicians.
    Express your opinion/protest on the ballot sheet.

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  18. Absolutely fabulous with the comments left on (unlike some other blogs). Myself and some others I know are much more likely to donate more frequently knowing we can see our comments published.

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  19. What was missing from the Lord Advocate Bain's statement in Holyrood. Well she said people repeatedly lied to them but never said they would be looking to prosecute them. Does this COPFC only prosecute innocent people and malicious cases?

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  20. I've just reread the article and noted that it refers to the SNP as pro-independence. This is much debated over the last few years, and I personally think with Humza at the helm it's a stretch now, not unlike when people wearyingly describe Labour as a left wing or socialist party. Polls predict a labour government with a good split of labour and SNP seats on Scotland. Were that actually a split of socialists and pro-independence members I'd be cock-a-hoop.

    I'm not cock-a-hoop.

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    1. So true!

      If only Corbyn was the prime minister in waiting. And someone with a passion for independence still led the SNP. We'd be dancing!

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  21. SNP can get Western Isles back over two elections by standing this time and next time again. Naive to think they would opt otherwise.

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    1. The SNP standing at the upcoming GE will hand the seat to Labour.
      Absolute lunacy.

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    2. Labour could well keep it, too. Don't confuse shooting yourself in the foot with a shotgun for a playful game of tag.

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    3. At the following election the SNP would not be competing with an incumbent pro indy candidate. So quite likely to grab back from Lab.

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    4. Rubbish. The Western Isles tends to vote for a person as much as a party. If Crichton gets his feet under the table he could literally be there for the rest of his life. Sorry, chaps, but the SNP don't have the luxury of "lending" the seat to Labour.

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    5. At least there is some chance of getting it back.

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    6. Why can't McNeill and the SNP just agree to come back together? That would appear to be the best for everyone in the independence movement.

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    7. Anon 4.39: too much water under the bridge now for that.

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