Please consider the following hypothetical scenario: the SNP issue a legally-binding commitment that in the event of a Yes vote for Scottish independence, they will permanently disband the party and step down from government as soon as the independence negotiations are concluded. In that event, how do you think you would vote in an independence referendum?
Oh-kaaaaaay, Stu. I mean, why stop there? Why not ask people how they would vote in an independence referendum in the hypothetical scenario that Nicola Sturgeon and the entire SNP cabinet make a legally-binding commitment to blast off on a rocket bound for Saturn the following day? I'm not a lawyer, but I have my doubts as to whether it's even possible for the kind of pre-commitments Stuart is talking about to be legally-binding. For the SNP to disappear "permanently", I presume it would literally have to be prohibited by statute in much the same way that Germany has banned any form of Nazi party. As for government formation, that's a matter for the Scottish Parliament at any given moment in time - options can't be closed off months or years in advance.
So what the hell was the point of Stuart asking such a ludicrous question? Reading between the lines, it appears to have been a propaganda exercise, intended to establish that the SNP are a drag on support for independence. If so, it backfired totally, because the result is the opposite - support for independence actually decreases from 50% to 47% when people are asked to assume that the SNP will no longer be around. That really shouldn't have been such a surprise to Stuart, because a number of people have become independence supporters precisely because they've seen the SNP run a devolved administration with a high degree of competence, and expect more of the same with the full powers of independence. As soon as you take away even the possibility of a post-independence SNP government, the reassurance disappears and those people are left with a considerable amount of uncertainty about what independence would look like and whether it would be a success.
Having failed to get the result he wanted, Stuart naturally does his usual "heads I win, tails you lose" thing, and tries to spin the result so that it supposedly still shows that the SNP are the main obstacle to independence (because their voters allegedly care more about maintaining SNP rule than about achieving the party's goal). Yeah, whatever.
In science, there's an important concept called 'falsifiability'. One implication of it is that if you set up a study in the hope of proving that a theory is true, there has to be a way in which the study could also prove the theory is false. For example, if someone is claiming to have psychic powers, and you ask them ten questions to prove they are a charlatan, you have to accept that if they get all ten questions right, you've failed to prove what you set out to prove. You can't then shift the goalposts and say "oh, but this just proves how cunning a charlatan he is!"
Stuart's claim (that his poll proves that the SNP are the main obstacle to indy) fails the falsifiability test, and fails it utterly. He would literally have made exactly the same claim if he had got precisely the opposite result - and that was what he was seeking.
I have decided to blast off on a rocket to Saturn.
ReplyDeleteGoodbye, cruel world.
We think that the banned single "Sunshine fae Perth" was instrumental in achieving this result.
DeleteNow Leslie Evans is getting twitchy.
So now we have seen the first casualty of the Blogmeister-19 virus in Scotland.
DeleteBut who will be next? Ahahahahahaaa!
I believe it is time to wage war on the intellectual flab of SNP apologists.
Wings is basically an ego trip for promoting the views of its owner. I stopped reading it months back and i suspect I am not alone .His relentless attack on the SNP and apparent obsession with gender politics are unseemly
ReplyDeleteI used to read Wings at least once daily, but haven't even seen it since around Christmas. It's a pity because it was so informative and well researched. Maybe it still is. I don't know.
DeleteI'm actually shocked that it only dropped by 3%. I mean, can you imagine even the thought of the current crop of Lab, Con or even worse, LD MSPs being in charge of an Independent Scotland. That would even make me think twice about voting for independence.
ReplyDeleteWullie Rennie, yer country needs ye.
DeleteHe asks such convoluted questions sometimes it's a wonder folk know what they're answering. One poll a good while back had ridiculously conflicting results in three linked hypothetical scenarios. He called it bizarre. I thought it was fully expected. There's a reason the referendum question has to be as simple as possible.
ReplyDeleteI received that poll, and yep. On several points I had to re-read a number of times to figure out what the hell it was on about.
DeleteActually surprised that Panelbase let the wording fly, but £££ I suppose.
I wondered the same, I also suppose that asking questions in a poll isn't quite the same as them being electorally rigorous. However, you need simple questions because who, filling in a poll, has time or inclination to work out what they're answering. Ambiguity just lends itself to "bizarre" and as a result quite useless results.
DeleteAn argument should be able to stand on its own. Just put it there denate it if you like or just leave it on record. He's excellent at using the press and statistics to frame a story and he writes very well indeed. He used his obvious abilities to research issues and took stuff that was freely available online if you had the ability to think it through, get and then put it down in writing.
ReplyDeletehe was always a bit spiky when criticised and the longer he has had that blog the more intolerant of dissent he has become. he has sunk the past couple of years to manufacturing stats, peddling arguments that don't align with the points he is trying to win. We all have our criticisims of the SNP but I don't really get the lengths he is going to run down the SNP. They can be a pain in the arse but they aren't that bad. He has done as much as anyone to inflame the GRA issue, a minor issue albeit with the possibility of more serious consequences.
I can't work out what's going on there but I've lost more trust in his writing than I have the SNP the past while.
''He's excellent at using the press and statistics to frame a story.''
DeleteDoes anyone know him well enough to know who exactly produces the work?
.. and I am worried about the SNP.
ReplyDeleteIt's not the SNP that is the problem. It's the strategy and leadership on the independence process within the SNP. We are stuck in a rut. But the SNP just need a change of leadership, not a dismemberment of the whole party.
ReplyDeleteI believe we just need to get rid of Murrel. He seems to be dictating process.
Genuine question, a) why do you think that the SNP need a change in leadership and b) why do they need rid of Murrel?
DeleteI really would like to know this as it comes up a lot in comments on Indy blogs, so what specifically are these vital issues if you don't mind me asking?
You voted for the leadership so it is a matter for all the Nat si membership. Nice to see you are not as united as you make out.
DeleteYou are lucky in such times that you have the Bank of England to bail you out. We are basically bankrupt and relying on faceless international capitalists lending money which will have to be paid back.
Covidia will do its bit to pay back the international capitalists when its Tory overlords come calling.
DeleteThe crops won't harvest themselves, and Covidia and its xenophobic fellow travellers scream with rage at the amount of foreigners in the country, so it's up to them to dig for Glorious Brexitania.
A reminder that less than almost exactly 5 months ago the SNP won 72% of Scotland's seats in the general election. Since then independence polling has been hovering around 50/50.
DeleteThe truth is support for independence has NEVER been stronger... we just need to 'keep the heid'
What about Eurovision?
ReplyDeleteThat's more important than WoS at the moment.
The one good thing to come out of the Tory Plague was the cancellation of Eurovision.
DeleteAnd the Plague is taking us out of the EU.
DeleteIt was the diseased rage of xenophobes like Covidia that took us out of the EU.
DeleteCovidia may cite any evidence about Covid-19 from the Brexit referendum campaigns.
The SNP need a clearout of the Conspirators who are trying to turn Scotland in to a police state to keep themselves in situ. Political trials/charges in Scotland have been created as another divide and conquer strategy by the British state. The SNP are under the control of Westminster. WOS and his silly poll questions are just a distraction.
ReplyDeleteDefend Mark Hirst from poltical persecution.
Hahaha the "conspirators who are trying to turn Scotland in to a police state" Seriously you lot are a laugh.
DeleteNo correct that, you're a joke, an unfunny one at that, thick as shit is more appropriate LOL
Get a life FFS and stop pretending to support Independence.
Is that you Craig? Hmmm.
DeleteNo it is not Murray it is someone who has never supported a British party - unlike you. Seems you were daft enough to do so in your own words for "40 years". Throwing about "thick as shit insults " is so British Labour.
DeleteWhat is the current SNP strategy for independence?
Thepnr - do you agree that the police action re Mark Hirst is acceptable - yes or no will suffice.
DeleteI know you won't answer the question about the current SNP strategy for independence because it is a joke.
You were fooled by British Labour for 40 years but you are now absolutely certain you are correct now.
No I don't agree with the action against Mark Hirst, I doubt Nicola Sturgeon is behind it though.
DeleteSo far, the SNP strategy for Independence has brought us closer than ever before, unlike you I have patience and understand the need to win the support of No voters as we did lose the last referendum through lack of support.
I notice now that support for Independence in the three most recent polls has been 50% and above. That's better than it has ever been. I have faith in the SNP strategy alright and if you weren't so blinded with hatred for the SNP even you would see that we are heading in the right direction.
I have zero interest in losing the next referendum, you appear not to care too much as long as it isn't the SNP that win us one, else you be proved wrong.
I'll tell this for free, a Wings list party in not the vehicle that will bring Independence to Scotland only the SNP can do that by winning over the additional support we need to secure more than 50% of the votes.
I'm a realist and not a fantisist like you, I'm more correct than you, with your blind hatred of Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP will ever be and I'm certain of that.
Thepnr - a lot of deflection and assumptions.
DeleteYou say you have faith in the strategy but don't actually say what it is - check back I asked you what the strategy is not whether you had faith in it. A bit like a religion - you have faith in something that doesn't exist.
I don't hate the SNP. The SNP is full of independence supporters being let down by its current leadership. That happens in political parties. I don't care about being proved wrong I want independence. I think it is you who is more concerned about that.
I never advocated a Wings party - you are just making stuff up.
Sorry but you have blind faith and I guess that's why you were a Labour party supporter for 40 years.
Glad to hear you do not agree with the action against Mark Hirst. Why do you think it is happening?
Do you agree with the action against Murray?
Why no action against all the MSM journalists?
Do you think it is correct for senior people in the SNP to perjure themselves in a court of law?
Did you think it was ok for Salmond to be removed from the SNP history section on the website. Who do you think authorised that and why?
The polls could show 70% for independence but if the SNP leadership do nothing but collect mandates for a referendum then how does that achieve independence?
It is astonishing the capacity you have for ignoring what is going on in the SNP.
The strategy of the SNP is simple, it is to increase support for Independence by convincing those that previously voted No that they were wrong and should vote Yes.
DeleteThat's the only strategy anyone could have, they are doing that by continuing to prove to those NO voters that the SNP are a party that can govern very well in difficult circumstances in contrast to Westminster. They are building trust in the party and it's leadership with people who would never before have considered supporting Independence.
Your turn now to tell me why you believe that Independence supporters are being let down by it's current leadership, a leadership that has in fact increased support for Independence?
If anyone is ignorant I would argue that it is you who fail to see the truth of the situation, you ignore increasing support both for Independence and for the SNP. You ignore the popularity with the general public in Scotland for Nicola Sturgeons leadership in this crisis.
That makes you ignorant of the reality of what is happening right now and I feel sorry for you but I don't hold it against you.
First of all I do not ignore the increase in the polls for independence. I welcome it. The point I made was it in itself will not achieve independence. There is no strategy for turning a majority into independence. There was nothing in Sturgeons speech in January to say how that was going to happen. Your question answered.
DeleteQuestions you did not answer from my previous post.
1. Why is Hirst being treated like this by the police?
2. Do you agree with the action against Murray?
3. Why no action against MSM journalists?
4. Senior people in the SNP perjurerthemselves - is that correct?
5. Salmond being removed from the SNP history.
None of the above points addressed by you. Don't feel sorry for me try and think about what is going on and stop wrapping yourself in the delusion that a majority for independence will miraculously mean independence will happen.
Finally, do you really not have a clue even now who was involved in the stitch up of Salmond to send an innocent man to prison.
Hahaha you think I should answer YOUR questions? Are you the Gestapo :)
DeleteI've been thinking that I really shouldn't be adressing someone with a nom de plume of "Unknown" so I've decided I'll refer to you as Sad Sack since from now on.
Best of luck in getting some other mug to answer your questions.
Three simple questions for you Sad Sack.
DeleteWho would you choose to replace Nicola Sturgeon as leader of the SNP and why do you think they would further the cause of Independence?
Do you accept that 50% of the electorate of Scotland must vote for Independence in order to make the result unargueable and to be recognised by the rest of the world?
How would your strategy to gain Independence differ from the SNP?
Thepnr - it is sad that you turn to abuse when confronted with difficult questions thst challenge your views. You say I'm gestapo for asking valid questions but you then ask me further questions. So does that make you gestspo as well.
DeleteUnlike you I will answer your questions:
1. Anyone in the SNP who has a plan to achieve independence. They would have a plan to to achieve independence as distinct from asking for a sect 30 knowing it will be refused.
2. Yes
3. To actually have a plan.
Over to you now.
Nicola Sturgeon has a plan to win Independence and it's working, it's just that your too dense to see that.
DeleteThepnr - a summary of your position.
Delete1. Unable or unwilling to address questions that challenge your point of view. A closed mind.
2. I am too dense to see a plan that you cannot describe. Back to the blind faith again.
3. You approach seems to me like religious zeal.
It is now nearly 4 years since Scotland voted to remain in the UK with multiple statements over these years by Blackford saying Scotland will not be taken out of the EU. Is this part of the plan that cannot be described? Now as someone who trusted the British Labour Party for 40 years patience is obviously one of your strong points. Are you planning on waiting another 40 years for a sect 30?
Sad Sack it's nearly 6 years since Scotland voted to remain in the UK. Did I mention how dense I thought you were?
DeleteThepnr - that is a very sad reply. You know fine well I was referring to the EU.
DeleteYour continual resorting to personal insults only demonstrates that you have no answers, no arguments and in fact unable to have a discussion. In fact that is the British Labour in Scotland approach when challenged - close your mind and insult. Old habits die hard.
So are you planning to wait 40 years for a sect 30?
A sect 30 possibly requested from May - now is not the time meekly accepted.
A referendum will happen in in autumn 2018 or early 2019 says the SNP - nope. It is now 2020 for the referendum even though there is no sect 30 - nope not happening. Give us another mandate in 2021 election. How many mandates for a referendum does the SNP need . The SNP are setting a new world record.
Nicola Sturgeons speech in January was just more of the same - stringing us along. No plan just keep asking for a sect 30 knowing it will be refused.
Aw come on, you're not about to start blubbering are you hahaha
DeleteSad Sack, have a read of these links, then get back to me with your constitutional arguements. I have many more for you if you can handle it. You only need to ask.
Deletehttps://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2017/03/15/ewan-smith-and-alison-young-thats-how-it-worked-in-2014-and-how-it-would-have-to-work-again/
https://constitution-unit.com/2017/03/22/a-second-scottish-independence-referendum-without-a-s-30-order-a-legal-question-that-demands-a-political-answer/
https://indyref2.space/forum/topic/is-there-a-constitutional-path-to-scottish-independence/
I do hope you will download the pdf referenced in my last link and actually read it, it's for your own good. No need to thank me, happy to help educate you for free.
DeleteThepnr - more deflection. Trying to change the subject. No answers to my questions - no SNP plan.
DeleteRead all these links previously.
You really are coming across as someone who has lost the argument and has to resort to insults.
As you well know the points I have raised relate to the unacceptable conduct of senior SNP personnel and senior Scotgov personnel along with the lack of any plan by the SNP to achieve independence. Not possible constitutional options.
You seem prepared to keep waiting for another 40 years - other independence supporters are not. While you were supporting British Labour passing the law that is being used to charge Hirst I was an independence supporter. Now you are an expert. Your lack of self awareness is only matched by your arrogance and rudeness.
"Read all those links previously"
DeleteReally, and yet your ignorance shines so brightly, yeah I believe you. Hahahaha.
Alex, you really need to improve your manners.
DeletePerhaps it would be best for you to stick to posting on the WGD and Indyref2 where you won't be challenged.
Sad Sack, yes I can see how you'd like that, eh LOL
DeleteI believe Wings has lost an idiotic poster from the many it already has, might that be you Saddy?
DeleteBetter get back over there where you will be certain to be among friends and won't be challanged.
Why wont you post here using a name rather than hide behind "Unknown" are you too embarrassed to use even a handle that doesn't identify you or just shit scared of revealing who you are?
DeleteYou seem to think you know me, so c'mon don't be shy, who are you? A coward is what I'd put money eh, is that right Sad Sack?
Thepnr, you cannot address the questions and you personalise everything. Try asking yourself why you keep repeating this rather than address the issues.
DeleteI answered your questions. You ran away from mine to your escape route of personal abuse. Is it any wonder you supported British Labour for 40 years you have no capacity for challenging your own thinking. You seem to be the one who is scared. Scared to debate. Instead you prefer throwing childish insults around.
Still too scared to give a name Saddo, I thought as much.
DeleteThepnr - what are you - the gestapo. I want a name - give me a name. Mark Hirst is a name. The man being prosecuted for a political statement by ...........
DeleteTotal deflection from the issues. You are just like GWC a waste of time.
You have learned nothing from your 40 wasted years of supporting British Labour.
Thepnr ( Gestapo ) here is another name. Evans (Britnat) "we lost a battle but we will win the war" - contract extended by another name Sturgeon.
DeleteYou all know who rev Stuart Campbell is of course, you've all met him personally, and know his friends, in fact been aquainted with him for some time
ReplyDeleteThe answer to all these questions is no you don't, and yet because he writes well and folk thought he supported Independence for Scotland he must be a good guy, how do you know, again you don't
Let's just take a look at who his friends are then, ah well you can't do that either because he appears to have none, so the guy's a mystery really, yet some folk still believe what he invents is true
At this moment his best chum is Craig Murray, well what do we know about him, and the answer to that is really easy you can look him up and that should tell you exactly why he wants rid of Nicola Sturgeon to replace her with the former FM Alex Salmond who failed Scotland incredibly badly by holding a referendum and allowing the BBC and the nation of Englands politicians to set the agenda for the debate right here in Scotland when the whole objective was to arrange a divorce from them, not to allow them who don't pay tax in Scotland, don't reside in Scotland, and don't represent Scotland to decide how that debate would be handled
So that's how effective Alex Salmond was, he handed the running of Scotlands referendum over to the people who opposed it happening
There are rules set by the UN as to how referendums are conducted and Alex Salmond and the UK government broke every one of them and Scotland unsurprisingly lost
So looking back at Alex Salmonds strategy it hardly looks like he intended to win when he allowed himself to be publicly humiliated by Alistair Darling and George Osborne, it kinda looks like he intended to look like he tried really really hard but dammit they outsmarted him
I don't buy any of that shit, all Alex Salmond wanted was what he got the appearance of getting more powers (which he didn't) because England will always do what England does and shaft you
and he damn well knew it
Nicola Sturgeon will achieve Independence for Scotland, but she'll do it in a way that she wins it not the fake Alex Salmond power for powers sake
Oh and I don't believe he was guilty of anything either other than being a bit of a drunk and over fond of himself leading to him thinking women were crazy about him and he made some silly drunk mistakes, but nothing criminal
Bring him back, the press will tear him to pieces on a daily basis and England will mock Scotland endlessly for doing it, and the International community will forget Scotland exists if we're stupid enough to remove the most popular and favoured FM Scotland has ever had to bring back what exactly, the failure
Being a labour member I hope you do not mind me replying. I do not understand why you give this Rev any credence by commenting about him. Knickerless is popular. My wife likes her as a person who is committed to her cause however my wife supports the Union. Salmond justified taking at least one donation from Souter who benefitted from Tory policies. You Nat sis seem to hate Tories. Salmond is involved with RT the Russian State TV Channel. Russia is a state that murders and jails opponents. The press and media would have a field day if Salmond returned. As a Unionist I would be happy to see Salmond return. It would be win win for us. Knickerless will never be short of a few Bob.
DeleteIt's great to see someone talking sense (11.42pm). I'll also add that Alex Salmond will never return to lead any party in Scotland, especially not one with links to the obnoxious turncoat Campbell. How anyone thinks that this will come to pass has lost the plot. Campbell and Murray are also a couple of charlatans out to demolish any chances of Scotland getting it's independence. Some people seem to think that Murray detests Westminster so much that he'd never do anything to please them. Murray is a LibDem supporter. Always has been. Always will be.
DeleteThe opinions being voiced on Wings for the last 9 months or so are mainly concerned with GRA legislation or attacking Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP rather than talking about Independence unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, it is a shame and that though is the choice that the blog owner made.
Speaking of un-falsifiable arguments, I've heard them from the Yes side for years.
ReplyDeleteFor example:
When the oil price is high and Scotland is a net contributor to the UK, this proves that Scotland should be independent because it shows that it can stand on it's own too feet.
When oil is low and Scotland is a net beneficiary from the UK, this proves that Scotland should be independent because it shows that Westminster is failing Scotland by holding it back from its potential.
Heads Yes wins, tails No loses.
Duh. Both could be true, actually.
DeleteAnd neither need be true for an independent Scotland to be successful, what with our other (future-proof) assets like renewables.
This negativity just shows though the great importance of oil in the BritNat mind, that while they persist in busily stealing it, they are also very desperate to maintain the self-evident absurdity that Scotland is the only country in the world for whom oil is a "disaster". (Yes, the McCrone Report has left some very deep scars - and fears - in the BritNat camp.)
Martin, Scotland has always been ripped off in the UK.
DeleteYour use of the word contributor makes it sound like it is a voluntary decision made in a democratic union. It is not. So your whole post is just Britnat nonsense.
There's so much more to Scotland then oil - that whole discussion;s futile. Oil's just a bonus.
DeleteAnonymous...I doubt very few in the 'BritNat camp" (where would one find this camp? The Lake District?) have hard of the McCrone Report, let alone be scarred for life of it. But keep mining the extremely narrow conspiracy theory end of politics and see how far it gets you.
DeleteAnd of course you completely ignored my point. Which I'll restate: Where is the falsifiable argument (as James uses in the article above) with regards to Oil revenue? When you move the goalposts to renewables you throw away the white paper from Indyref 1. Convenient, that. But still, doesn't account for GERS of course (and no, I don't want to be lectured on why GERS is garbage, I've heard all the arguments ad nauseum and they're not very convincing)
As for 'stealing' our oil, how about the fact that by your argument you're stealing the Shetland's oil (and don't give me that BS argument about enclaves that WoS uses in the blue book - he doesn't even know the difference between an enclave and an exclave)
Unknown...so your argument is to misrepresent the commonly understood meaning of contribution, and by doing so you turn me into a Britnat spouting nonsense. So how exactly does that refute my point or get me over to your point of view?
And Real Martin, if Oil was so unimportant, can you tell me why much of the last white paper or the Wee Blue Book were so fixated on it? Or even why the person above you talks about it being stolen from the Scottish? If it's so un-important can the rUK have it, or the Shetland Islands have it? Thought not.
Martin - demonstrating the closed mind of a Britnat.
DeleteSiU up early today.
ReplyDeleteA good indication that your article is of value and well read across Scotland.
It's good to see so many diverse subjects being discussed in Scotland outwith editorial control of the British Media. Something SiU are struggleing to deal with on behalf of the British State.
As if we have become our own opposition to disagree yet retain the common interest of an Independent Scotland where all political parties whether reincarnations of the SNP or green shoots of the other parties having removed their straight jackets of London control then share that common interest.
Frow Wings.
ReplyDeleteBecause the number of Tories who’d vote Yes in an SNP-less Scotland more than doubled, from 4% to 9%, and the number of Tory DKs – ie those now willing to at least seriously consider it – trebled. Lib Dem support grew by a quarter (from 12% to 15%), and DKs almost sextupled, from just 4% to a whopping 23%.
ReplyDeleteUnexpectedly, among Labour voters – whose party hates the Nats the most – there was much less movement. The Yes vote didn’t change at all, and DKs went up, but to less than double – 11% to 20%.
But that’s still a significant net Unionist shift to Yes,
Fringe poppet. Yeah...
DeleteYour poetry sucks
DeleteBecause the number of SNP voters who’d be willing to sacrifice the party’s own power in the name of independence plummeted from 82% to just 59%.
ReplyDeleteNothing in the question said that there wouldn’t or couldn’t be a new party or parties formed by ex-SNP people to contest the new general election that would follow the government stepping down, only that it wouldn’t be the SNP.
But the stunning finding of the poll is that if the SNP promised to disband after winning and implementing independence, it would be SNP voters, not Unionists, who would deliver a second No victory in the new indyref.
But the stunning finding of the poll is that if the SNP promised to disband after winning and implementing independence, it would be SNP voters, not Unionists, who would deliver a second No victory in the new indyref.
DeleteWell, no. The poll found that 15% of SNP voters would vote No in that scenario, against 92% of Tories, 57% of Labour and 84% of Lib Dems.
"As soon as you take away even the possibility of a post-independence SNP government, the reassurance disappears and those people are left with a considerable amount of uncertainty about what independence would look like and whether it would be a success."
ReplyDeleteThis is certainly the first reaction that comes to mind to the question posed, but very interesting to see the movement in the No voters. Something for the strategists to consider maybe.
We write to advise clients of the restructuring of our business following the retiral of one of our senior partners. We look forward to further streamlining our operations in the coming weeks and months and remain fully focussed on providing a higher level of advocacy and representation for all members of the Scottish community.
ReplyDeleteRather nonsensical polling questions.
ReplyDeleteIf the UK government promised to immediately resign and completely disband the moment the UK exited the European union, would you still vote for brexit?
If the conservatives promised to immediately resign and completely disband the moment they had won the general election and formed government, would you still vote conservative?
You'd have to be mad to answer yes to such questions if taken literally. So lots won't have taken them literally, ego the poll is meaningless as if people are trying to imagine what the question is really asking, then they are imagining different things so answering different questions.
A decent question would have been along the lines of:
If you had to pick an option, what would it be:
A. The SNP remaining in power, even if it meant Scotland didn't become independent
B. Scotland becoming an independent country, even if it meant the SNP potentially no longer being in power
Ask the question you want answered as directly as possible, and it has to describe something sensible that can actually happen. Otherwise, it's just an exercise in silliness.
You have completely missed the point that Campbell is making, possibly because of your antipathy towards him.
ReplyDeleteThe question he asked may have been long but it is nonetheless clear and the responses demonstrate the essence of the issue that currently besets the pro independence community, especially in the SNP.
Namely, there are those whose desire for independence is dictated by independence on their terms only and if they cannot have that then they don't want independence. They idealogy is such that they would even align themsleves with unionists to achieve their aims.
Ian
Stuart Campbell doesn't want the SNP's version of independence it would appear.
DeleteBefore being banned from twitter, he regularly retweeted messages to the effect of 'If the SNP goes ahead with GRA changes, I don't want independence any more!' and called for Sturgeon to resign ahead of a key election. He didn't even propose an alternative to vote for either, just 'Don't vote SNP was the message!'.
I'm not blindly loyal to any party, but throughout my life, only unionists have called for the leader of the SNP to resign while telling me not to vote for them.
And while the question above party vs indy might have validity, you need to just ask it directly.
DeleteI have always voted SNP, but not blindly. At the next election, I will consider my options as usual. So far, I'm pretty unimpressed with alternatives, particularly if they try to mislead me on how the Holyrood system works.
To my own question above however, I'd vote B.
I'd pick B as well, it's a no brainer for me.
DeleteIan, in this post Wings approvingly quotes a number of people who say they won't vote for independence if the SNP proceeds with the GRA.
DeleteStuart Campbells poll simply indicates that there are independence supporters who place preconditions on their support.
DeleteI am one who holds Stuart Campbell in high regard and as someone who has done more than most to forward the cause of Scottish independence. That said, unlike him, I don't place any preconditions on my support even although it does seems an act of extreme folly, on the part of the SNP, to risk a considerable body of your support for no obvious reason.
Ian
I personally think 'Don't resign en masse if you win a referendum/election, particularly at crucial moment in a nation's governance' is a pretty sensible pre-condition to ask of any party.
DeleteIt's really hard to justify asking people to vote for independence if you planned to step down as soon as that's actually happened, washing your hands of the whole thing and abandoning the country to its fate.
Thepnr you may well pick B and credit to you for doing so. Sadly there are many in the higher echelons of the SNP who do not share your enthusiasm.
DeleteI'd guess that if that question was actually polled, SNP supporters would probably plump for B in large numbers.
DeleteJust as there are roughly 9-10% of SNP voters against Independence, my gut instinct is that the numbers choosing A would be very similar to those that don't want Independence.
I guess to find out we will need to wait on that question being asked in a poll.
''I am one who holds Stuart Campbell in high regard and as someone who has done more than most to forward the cause of Scottish independence.''
DeleteA story that begins with ''Once Upon a time.'' Changed days now. He's out to destroy the movement and we should all be asking ourselves at whose bequest.
Campbell is just another subversive who likes to cause trouble wherever he goes, he supports nothing but his own ego
ReplyDelete@10:21am You just described Stuart Campbell, his way or no way
ReplyDeleteI'd be keen to know what the answers to this question looked like:
ReplyDeletePlease consider the following hypothetical scenario: the newly proposed Scottish Independence List Party issue a legally-binding commitment that in the event of a Yes vote for Scottish independence, they will permanently disband the party and step down from elected positions as soon as the independence negotiations are concluded. In that event, how do you think you would vote in an independence referendum?
Would supporters of this new list party be ok with and SNP (or even Tory / Lib / Lab) only government post indy as their own party had disbanded?
One for your next poll James!
hahaha! ����
DeleteStu Campbell wants a new pro- independence party to stand on the regional list.
ReplyDeleteBut there already is one- the Greens. Campbell doesn't want us to vote for them because he doesn't like their policies apart from independence.
So he is guilty of exactly what he is accusing others of - putting other policies before independence.
There's also the Scottish socialist party and Solidarity.
DeleteI used to vote for Margo on the list.
If we need other list parties to vote for, there are a good few options already.
To be honest, if an new list party is needed, it's a centre-right one. 'Tories for indy' or the like. That could help bring Tories over to indy without much if any effect on centre to left pro-indy party vote shares.
Campbell did tweet a lot of stuff from conservative groups / media recently, and historically voted Lib Dem, so maybe that's the plan.
Did you mean the Scottish Socialite Party who created a good media diversion during the last recession.
DeleteCovidia wishes Yaxley-Lennon would run for Holyrood, even though he's a bit of a leftie for Covidia's liking.
DeleteYaxl finds mé itredpistible.
DeleteOh dear.
DeleteCovidia did make an early start on the turps last night.
It is to be hoped that it returned safely to its sobbing cupboard.
Campbell should conduct a poll to establish how many Scots know of him and if they do what they actually think of him. A starting point to identify the level of support he'd acquire for a political party being led by him. I think we'd find that it would go down like a lead balloon. More so an in-depth study of him would put thousands off voting for independence at all.
DeleteSturt Campbell isn't very keen on democracy unless it's the kind of democracy he approves of, how very Liberal Democrat of him
ReplyDeleteAs for doing a lot for Independence, that's a dubious claim when nobody else who is actually involved in the Independence movement wants anything to do with the guy
He's a self promoter just like George Galloway
George Galloway tore you Nat sis tae ribbons during the pre referendum debate 2014.
DeleteI hope Covidia enjoys itself at the park later.
DeleteIt will enjoy gathering closely with like-minded people, at least until the polis chase them off.
"T" in the park means that Invidia is getting back to its daily routine.
DeleteCovidia is looking forward to lockdown being eased. It'll be able to go back to its favourite activity - standing in the street, screaming abuse at anyone it thinks looks foreign.
DeleteThe guy has seriously lost the plot. Why the hell would you even think of that as a valid question at all? Why should the SNP 'disband'? He is playing silly buggers with this rubbish.
ReplyDeleteLol, imagine, a party in power because the majority of the people voted for them in a democratic election, on the basis that they would er 'disband' ( having worked to 'negotiate' what INDEPENDENCE would entail etc!) and then never darken the doors of politics ever again.
It's a ridiculous question, he is playing games, he is a gamer after all. Except, life is not quite the same as gaming is it.
Real humans are in the main are more reasoned, nuanced and well more intelligent lot, except for a few dangerous diddy heads that is!
Independence is not a game, elections/referendums are not a game.
Polls are like a game though...hypothetical, designed to influence, and made up by the pollsters.
So, maybe a poll to see how many have totally, sensibly, ditched WoS? How should we word that question? If it's a bigly number, should the 'Rev Stu' disband and never darken the doors of blogging or appear in the media, ever again? Hmm?
His thesis was that if soft-no's were fearful of an SNP "single-party state", they just might be persuadable if they could be assured somehow that this wouldn't happen. OK, it may be true for some, but it was a fanciful notion at best, since soft-no's use all sorts of excuses to mask what their real objection is, which is that they are too faint-hearted to believe in themselves.
DeleteFurthermore, given that so far in the current crisis Nicola Sturgeon and Jeane Freeman in particular have demonstrated competence and thereby earned a great deal of public confidence, the notion of a rudderless independent Scotland instead is just plain bonkers. And this poll simply confirms that rather obvious expectation.
Campbell claims he has lots of *pals* in the SNP, Joanna Cherry certainly isn't one of them, or anybody else that I know of
ReplyDeleteHe seeme to have more *pals* at the Daily Mail these days though
Cherry looks like she needs her cherry cracked.
DeleteCovidia and its pathetic homophobia, everyone.
DeleteFunny however that we don't know jack squat about him. No mention of friends or what he gets up to in Bath. The word ''we'' crops up now and again. Who's ''we''? The person who's behind producing his articles? If so what do we know about ''we''? An employee of GCHQ?
DeleteWestminster obviously back pedalling now on relaxing lockdown restrictions due to the backlash from teachers, trade unions and figures such as the Mayor of Liverpool and the leader of Gateshead council saying they will not reopen schools and in Gateshead they are sticking to the "Stay at Home" message.
ReplyDeleteThe news today reporting that there are differeing R numbers across the UK and Tory MP's appearing on the telly saying that regional lifting of the lockdown does have some merit to it.
Next we hear that the R number has actually increased in England and is now estimated to be between 0.7 and 1. Policy on the hoof, this lot are more than useless. Nicola Sturgeon stands head and shoulders above the lot of them in leadership and competence. What an embarrassment she is to Westminster.
Tories and No voters in Scotland really need to pay more attention to what is going on. The man you put your trust in to govern the UK really is a clown.
The Clown as you call him has taken you Nat si Clowns tae ra cleaners and out of the corrupt EU. Whose the clown now ya Jock poncer.
DeleteThe inadvertent comedy of Covidia's diseased ravings expose it for the clown that it is.
DeleteIt prefers its corruption stinking of Westminster.
Glasgow working class worships at the feet of Bawrash the Bullingdon boy from Eton Hahahaha
ReplyDeleteYou nat sis all want to poke me because I'm a British stud and you all know I'm superior and great in bed.
DeleteYou could ask Skiers wife, GWC impersonator.
DeleteDid you know that the Tartan Tories and Greens cut the Glasgow City Council budget.
DeleteDid Covidia understand that its beloved Tory overlords have cut the primary source of that funding - the Scottish Government block grant - for years on end?
DeleteProbably, but it would never question its overlords. Staunch.
Albie, sometimes I think you could be a better man.
DeleteHe may be Grimly Washed-up in Glasgow, and he may just be "working class" (tho' I doubt it), but he's definitely not Scottish. Whether he's from somewhere else entirely (he has an extremely-high exceptionalism index, which may be a clue), or is victim to a clinically-interesting case of suppressed identity, I dare not guess. He also appears entirely unaware of the well-known psychological phenomenon of projection, as others have previously noted, since he betrays his condition (or should I say Condition) in every third posting. (The rest being mere incoherent attention-seeking verbal effluent. Another unfortunate personality trait.)
DeleteBut anyway, he's a stupendous exemplar of the moronic tendency that forms the hard core of BritNattery. He could stir any reasonable PSB right out of his/her delusional stupor, if only his embarrassing outpourings were more widely visible. (But who would wish that even on them?)
Covidia is an obedient British nationalist.
DeleteWe continue to deliver at this difficult time:
ReplyDeletehttps://wingsoverscotland.com/token-offerings/
One weirdo who calls other people weirdos calls himself *We*
DeleteRoger Moore and Anthea Turner both read Wings and post messages calling for the return of the death penalty on trains.
DeleteGuy over at wings demanding that the Scottish Government should take over care homes. He did not mention that the English should still pay for it in an independent Scotland. Scotland is skint and is being propped up by the Bank of England and international financiers. Scotland could never pays its share of the debt.
DeleteBoris Car Hire - a typical Britnat nonsense post. Scotland cannot be skint as it is not an independent country. Is that nonsense the best Bonking mad Boris fans can do.
DeleteScotland would be skint if it was an independent country.
DeleteThe evidence in hand is that England would be skint without Scotland's cash. Hence the former being too scared of standing on it's own two feet, ergo refusing a Section 30.
DeleteFor Scotland to be liable for any share of UK debt post indy, it has to be an equal partner in the UK. The Section 30 refusal confirmed that this does not apply.
DeleteThen England could borrow money from Scotland and not the Zurich Gnomes to get over the present economic crisis. An independent Scotland would not need to borrow money if it is rich enough to subsidise England.
DeleteNorway's a good comparison.
DeleteIt's funny that the most ardent "Scotland skint" zoomers are invariable the very same people who are increasingly anxious to cling on to us. They despise we "scroungers" so much they are desperately keen NOT to get totally shot of us. Whit? Wierd or what?
DeleteThey're clearly lying, whether to us or just themselves is hard to fathom.
Sitting around at 2:39 AM suggests you have no work to go to,scrounger.
DeleteCovidia has normally finished its screams of impotent rage and passed out in the sobbing cupboard by around 2am.
DeleteWe continue to deliver at this difficult time:
Deletehttps://wingsoverscotland.com/token-offerings/
Stu Campbell having to use Scot goes Pop and Chris Cairns to increase his ratings? Sad wee man.
Doris Van de Hire - the economic forecaster. Define skint - would it be like the trillions of UK debt.
ReplyDeleteWrong person, it is Professor Hertz van Rental.
DeleteI was in Beethoven's house.
Delete...and we'll also be addressing why Scotland picks up part of the tab for Trident when 57 out of 59 MPs voted against it.
DeleteAs well as creating many jobs in Scotland it deters the Chinese hoards and Russians from gaining the territories they desire. The Trident is also part of NATO defense strategy and you Nat sis voted to remain in NATO before the 2014 referendum. Some members of the Nat sis and Labour were apologists for the brutal former Soviet regime.
DeleteIt is to be hoped that Covidia enjoyed its afternoon in the park with all the other ultra-right-wing zoomers.
DeleteI was in Mozart's caravan.
DeleteTrident creates 510 jobs on Scotland (mod figures) the other 8000 jobs are in England where Trident isn't
DeleteNo nuclear weapon is a deterrent it is in fact the opposite, ask Kim Jong Il why the world is pointing its weapons at him when he has no intention whatsoever to start a war with anybody, he's using his weapons for exactly the same reason as the west is, the west just doesn't like it
Russia don't the right wing love to use Russia the big bad frightening county who actually won the second world war and lost the most people in it, but England stood alone doesn't like to remember those guys and prefer the propaganda of the Daily Mail Tory Nazis
Don't you think it's a bit odd that England and America are never done telling you that every other country but there's is bad and like the sheeple you are you just lap it up
Oh of course the EU is bad as well now, everybody's bad except England ugh huh they definitely must be eh, Oops I nearly forgot Scotland because we're bad as well now, and there's Ireland and there's on and on and on sheeple sheeple sheeple just thick Unionist sheeple
Covidia is proud of its wilful ignorance. it's a sign of unthinking obedience.
DeleteDieser schottisch Skifahrer ist ein wirschafliches Genie.
ReplyDeleteStillen. Gehorsam. Stillen.
DeleteWas ist denn das für ein Quatsch?
DeleteWith no limit on the amount of exercise allowed and how far one can travel within England for it, an estimated 15m leisure trips will be made by car in the UK this weekend, an RCA survey indicates.
ReplyDeleteAloud
DeleteI was in Mahler's shed.
DeleteI was in Wagner's cludgie.
DeleteCovidia does like a bit of Götterdämmerung.
Delete@Doris the Boris car hire
ReplyDeleteIn the last few years over 53 countries have left the British Imperial Union, that's why there's no Empire left, and every single one of those coutries who took their Independence from the English Imperial Empire was told the same thing
You're too wee and too poor to survive without England
Every single one of those countries celebrates their Independence day from England every year and England sends its congratulations to them, and you know why because England still needs to trade with all of them
I seem to recall America was one of those countries who threw out yer English parasites, or how about India, my favourite though is The Republic of Ireland where despite Englands overwhelming efforts to starve them of trade which they overcame, now make decisions on how England will be treated post Brexit
Leo Varadkar has more say over what will happen to England than Boris Johnson does, and when Scotland rejoins the EU Nicola Sturgeon will do the same, then England will have to buy its electricity from Scotland instead of stealing it from those who paid for it, the Scottish taxpayer
Normally around 2.6 million people are at work in Scotland. So the tax they pay will secure subsidising the English and paying out to the EU fat cats.
DeleteHow many times have you reposted that drivel. You must like the shirt tugging pillow muncher.
DeleteCovidia will never pass up the opportunity to fart out its pathetic bigotries.
DeleteThere's not enough Big Eater in Eurovision.
ReplyDeleteI was in Shostakovich's portakabin.
ReplyDeleteThey would never have won Eurovision. But we coulda been contenders.
DeleteKnickerless says there should be gatherings of no more than 500 hunner people.
DeleteCovidia enjoyed its wee trip to the park with all the other hard of thinking yesterday.
DeleteIt wants more.
12 March 2020 a day in infamy for Nicola Sturgeon. No more than 500 in a gathering. She must have been listening to the proclaimers.
DeleteTo the person impersonating me: if you carry on doing this, I'm going to have to be much more draconian. It's usually obvious what you're doing, but I'm sure there were people taken in by that last one. No more, thank you.
ReplyDeleteYoung James, if people impersonate you, you should be chuft. Your fellow Nat sis are habitual impersonators.
DeleteCovidia could never be accused of impersonating rationality.
DeleteShut up, ya brain-dead rocket!
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like a normal Scottish nat si comment.
DeleteRoaster.
DeleteI see Wings over Scotland's working really hard to get himself shut down so he can complain about that to the idiots whose faces he wipes his arse with
ReplyDeleteMost people who visit pro-Independence sites want Scotland to become an Independent country. We're fighting to get our Independence and in doing so all know that to achieve our objective we have to support the SNP. We're also faced with one of the greatest crisis ever in coping with this coronavrus and what does Stu Campbell do? Either sits back and says nothing to promote independence for weeks on end or digs around looking for dirt to throw on the SNP. As someone mentioned previously this is akin to the Unionist's strategies. Are his band of merry followers not wondering what's going on? Asking why he's changed his tune?
DeleteCampbell hasn't changed his tune he's just changed his cause because he's bored with the Independence one and decided the downfall of Nicola Sturgeon is his cause now
DeleteThe SNP aren't doing Independence the way Campbell demands it so in his book they're doing it wrong, that makes it his job to attempt to destroy it, at the end of the day he's lived in England for over twenty years and will continue to do so if Independence happens or not so it's of no direct affect to his life one way or another
He just likes causes for their own sake, winds people up, gets them to send him money because he writes what they want to read, the Daily Mail does that, so does the Telegraph and the Express and her's the funny thing Campbell agrees with most of their articles these days
Stuart Campbell sounds like someone that wants to resurrect Margret Thatcher / Mao / Alexander / whatever, as some kind of religious miracle. I think he must be as drunk as the last Scottish finance secretary is. His Great Tirade about the 15-year-old GRA is somewhat dated, as is Stuart Campbell.
DeleteGWC an orange man of the highest order
ReplyDeleteMarching and throwing obscenities are his favourite pastimes
Have tae SAE to you Terry the Pape I am not an Orange man or any related fruit.
DeleteCovidia is a diseased sectarian bigot.
DeleteI'm Hilary Twiskett, built like a biscuit.
ReplyDeleteOne has to assume that when the Nat sis resume their fascist flag waving days that on the orders of Knickerless they will assemble in groups of 500 for health and safety.
ReplyDeleteCovidia had lots of fun in the park, getting up close and personal with the other ultra-right-wing roasters at the weekend.
DeleteI note that the mighty Rev Stupott has written to my local MSP Humza regarding the Salmond trial. I assume the Rev Stupott either resides in my constituency or somewhere else in Scotland and pays council tax. Humza is a wee brylcreem boy but I hope he tells the man from Bath to go forth and multiply.
ReplyDeleteMy goodness GWC said something sensible, except for the insult to Mr Yusaf that is
DeleteShocker!!
WTF is Joanna Cherry MP doing on Twitter?
Delete