tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post8161168582674598435..comments2024-03-29T04:11:41.539+00:00Comments on SCOT goes POP!: Is there any case for SNP supporters to vote Leave?James Kellyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comBlogger77125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-22090299615950587082016-06-16T23:50:35.069+01:002016-06-16T23:50:35.069+01:00I thought SNP were an open political party, there ...I thought SNP were an open political party, there to represent all Scots? is it only independence voters who can vote for them now ? Why not vote for what you believe in the referendum ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-72721545425071555742016-06-13T19:40:06.861+01:002016-06-13T19:40:06.861+01:00I don't think they've had zero effect. On ...I don't think they've had zero effect. On the whole, they seem to be doing better at opposing the government than the Labour MPs they replaced ever did.<br /><br />A Scottish vote counts towards the make-up of the UK government just as much as an English one - actually more, given our slightly higher number of MPs per capita.keatonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-24316423919791381792016-06-12T13:36:02.107+01:002016-06-12T13:36:02.107+01:00It was the UK that joined the CM. You could say we...It was the UK that joined the CM. You could say we were dragged in.Glasgow Working Class 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-49926479194951008542016-06-12T12:27:48.616+01:002016-06-12T12:27:48.616+01:00If the figures are as stated then, as others have ... If the figures are as stated then, as others have said, a tactical Leave vote from an independence supporter in Scotland to work amost the entirety of the difference between Scotland and the rUK would need to be eliminated.<br /><br /> Couching the idea within a tactical framework is simply asking how gullible the questioner thinks independece supporters are.<br /><br /> As to the idea of any powers currently "evolved" to the EU naturally being returned to Holyrood. That's a huge leap in the dark. Westminster's argument will be that they were never devolved to Scotland in the first place. As with the promises pre indyref1 you'll find no official guarantees that Holyrood would get any more control of Scotland's affairs.<br /><br />Obviously the problems of farm subsidies would vanish overnight. Fisheries are in the same category as oil and ex-regio, or at least will be. Iain McCordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04114399330514686626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-28993478600996714802016-06-12T09:37:40.187+01:002016-06-12T09:37:40.187+01:00Personally I think it's lala land if you think...<i>Personally I think it's lala land if you think Unionists in Scotland value the EU more than the UK. </i><br /><br />Some of us do, actually.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-91475096245609826522016-06-12T02:59:56.539+01:002016-06-12T02:59:56.539+01:00"We would need to drop remain to 52% in Scotl...<i>"We would need to drop remain to 52% in Scotland to impact the English vote."</i><br /><br />That's a figure plucked out of thin air. If the referendum is on a knife-edge going into polling day (and it remains to be seen whether it will be) it's not inconceivable that a relatively small number of votes could swing the balance. Roughly 6 million people voted in Florida in 2000, and the election was decided by only a few hundred votes.James Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11480872609776312502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-79702111612228381782016-06-12T00:05:57.908+01:002016-06-12T00:05:57.908+01:00I think losing a ref after Brexit. Would kill Scot...I think losing a ref after Brexit. Would kill Scotland forever. However if Scots don't vote for independence while getting dragged out of the EU against its will. Then I think fuck it Scotland is a lost cause, and I will genuinely give up my passion for Scotland. Unfortunately some people will never see the truth.<br /><br />I would just become stateless.November13https://www.blogger.com/profile/16931442819121884795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-17339883309297712392016-06-11T23:14:39.160+01:002016-06-11T23:14:39.160+01:00Personally I think it's lala land if you think...Personally I think it's lala land if you think Unionists in Scotland value the EU more than the UK. Ultimately we have to convince a decent proportion of the 55% that Scotland is best served as an independent nation regardless of Brexit of not. Look at the EU issue from first principles and decide upon that basis how to vote - this triangulation shite is pointless.<br /><br />Also holding a snap IndyRef2 in the aftermath and losing will kill the issue for decades. It would just be more honest for the SNP to say if it appears that opinion in Scotland has significantly changed on independence then we would hold a 2nd referendum. An honest and principled position. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-75013889301668528182016-06-11T22:26:58.498+01:002016-06-11T22:26:58.498+01:00No no no no. Vote for what you believe in at all t...No no no no. Vote for what you believe in at all times. Don't even consider gambling. Scotland has very little influence in any case. We would need to drop remain to 52% in Scotland to impact the English vote. Then we risk the remain vote not being seen as decisive in Scotland and Wm saying we are not much different. The margin of difference is the key not the margin of victory.November13https://www.blogger.com/profile/03249463580152897462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-52611501290845168722016-06-11T21:31:20.115+01:002016-06-11T21:31:20.115+01:00This is pretty much why I support Remain, as well....This is pretty much why I support Remain, as well. This isn't a vote between the status quo and a better, more socially just, prosperous, and left-wing government. This is a vote between the status quo and having a Tory-led UK government that no longer has to respect EU labour laws.<br /><br />The Scottish government's budget will be cut even further, thanks to further austerity and the discontinuation of EU funding for various projects in Scotland. I don't believe for a minute that whatever powers Holyrood acquires from leaving the EU will allow them to make up the difference. As you correctly state, the UK government will focus on its spending priorities on London and the southeast of England and the rest of the UK will be even more fucked than it already is.<br /><br />But then again, I also don't believe that a second independence referendum will happen even if Scots vote heavily for Remain. According to The National, those circumstances don't really change the level of support for independence above what it was in the last referendum (http://www.thenational.scot/news/brexit-unlikely-to-lead-to-greater-support-for-indyref-poll-shows.18517). Admittedly, this is people projecting how they'd feel about the situation, rather than living it, but regardless, the fact that people don't think they'd change their minds makes it too risky to hold another independence referendum on the back of a potential forced exit from the EU.Hollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-29880181424815525132016-06-11T21:21:14.190+01:002016-06-11T21:21:14.190+01:00The point I was making is that if people want a Sc...The point I was making is that if people want a Scottish Remain/UK Leave, then there are two sides to that equation, not one. Only one seems to be in any doubt at the moment. James Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-48561590843798947282016-06-11T21:16:26.673+01:002016-06-11T21:16:26.673+01:00I don't really see the comparison, to be hones...I don't really see the comparison, to be honest. Sewel has always been regarded as sacred, and if it's breached that would be a much bigger deal than EVEL.James Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-35383898594633447702016-06-11T21:14:12.622+01:002016-06-11T21:14:12.622+01:00Apart from one technical breach that was apologise...Apart from one technical breach that was apologised for, Sewel has not been broken since 1999. There is no absolute legal impediment to it being broken in future, but all hell will break loose if it is. It's not something that can happen casually.James Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-44116913274960165712016-06-11T20:56:46.570+01:002016-06-11T20:56:46.570+01:00Yes, exactly this. The only way the EU referendum ...Yes, exactly this. The only way the EU referendum paves the way for another independence referendum is if Scotland votes to remain by a wide margin and is pulled out of the EU by voters from the rest of the UK. If people who want a second independence referendum want to vote tactically in the EU referendum, then it should be people who would prefer to vote Leave switching their votes to Remain in order to increase the margin by which Remain wins in Scotland. It is very likely that this referendum will decided by England, so piling more votes for Leave does nothing but diminish the argument that Scotland is being taken out of the EU against the will of its people.Hollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-40668875241139348482016-06-11T20:49:23.330+01:002016-06-11T20:49:23.330+01:00The Sewel Convention is a chocolate fireguard. No ...The Sewel Convention is a chocolate fireguard. No way are they going to let us have agriculture. Fluffy Mundell and his farmer chums will see to that. Your optimism is ill-placed. I wish I was wrong, but I can feel it in my bones James. Brexit is coming and they will royally screw us over.devorgillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11885637866018093933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-88691194526538138982016-06-11T20:35:06.944+01:002016-06-11T20:35:06.944+01:00Like the monumental crisis caused when thr SNP won...Like the monumental crisis caused when thr SNP won all those MPs and got EVEL foisted upon them? Westminster wouldn't give a hoot, and would do whatever it dammed well pleased. I am certain that Westminster will remove all useful powers that transfer to Holyrood in the event of Brexit. I'm amazed that people think it even possible that they'd do otherwise. Fool me once, etc. Arthurfaeleithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-26732846387136600762016-06-11T20:13:39.085+01:002016-06-11T20:13:39.085+01:00No. Agriculture and fisheries, for example, are d...No. Agriculture and fisheries, for example, are devolved powers. They would default automatically to the Scottish Parliament in the event of Brexit UNLESS the UK government added them to the list of reserved powers, which would almost certainly mean a breach of the Sewel convention.James Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-68189798313669595622016-06-11T19:15:56.057+01:002016-06-11T19:15:56.057+01:00But James we are going into this referendum not as...But James we are going into this referendum not as an independent state. If there is a Brexit, we will have no negotiation powers. Though we might try and plead a stronger say in any negotiations, Westminster doesn't need to listen. If there is a strong Remain vote in Scotland Brussels might be prevailed upon to listen.devorgillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11885637866018093933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-55751038278388326752016-06-11T19:10:20.129+01:002016-06-11T19:10:20.129+01:00I am glad Sturgeon is reopening the case but cawin...I am glad Sturgeon is reopening the case but cawing canny on another referendum. As it is one key argument we must thrash out and win before we can contemplate that.devorgillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11885637866018093933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-33077511815077449342016-06-11T18:59:14.621+01:002016-06-11T18:59:14.621+01:00A large Brexit vote from Scotland in this referend...A large Brexit vote from Scotland in this referendum for whatever reason tactical or otherwise sends a clear signal that Scotland is voting in line with England and diminishes the argument for a second indyref .This referendum is not about the rights and wrongs of the EU or whether Scotland should be in it . Rather it is about whether the UK should be a member and the argument for Scottish independence is greatly harmed by voting to leave because it implies that the UK is best placed to decide Scotland's future which should be anathema to any supporter of independence .bill forsythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11513042239933358771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-87136203832978673592016-06-11T18:39:52.100+01:002016-06-11T18:39:52.100+01:00Of course. It wouldn't actually happen. But th...Of course. It wouldn't actually happen. But that is what the threat would be. We all saw what happened with a refusal to use the pound during the first referendum. It would be far worse with an isolated UK. The EU guarantees freedom of trade. Onwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-54559509437678022722016-06-11T18:11:46.312+01:002016-06-11T18:11:46.312+01:00"we still have the power to vote out the actu..."we still have the power to vote out the actual UK government". <br /><br />You must have missed the 56/59 SNP MPs that we sent to Westminster, with precisely *zero* effect. <br /><br />Scotland has no power to vote out a UK government. We get what England votes for. Ian the Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070505023741962838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-42365652067899059102016-06-11T17:25:43.607+01:002016-06-11T17:25:43.607+01:00Okay, the leavers with a brain-cell (e.g. Gove) wo...Okay, the leavers with a brain-cell (e.g. Gove) would realise that they could not complain about this point having campaigned against Scottish independence. But Farage, the London editions of the right wing press and some of the loonier Tories would feel no such obligation.<br /><br />I don't see any basis for saying it would be a "seven-day wonder". It would be mentioned at every point at which it was relevant. The leave supporters are desperately seeking for any excuse for losing. Just look at their unhinged reaction to the temporary extension to the voter application deadline. James Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-19511450897676906172016-06-11T17:16:50.471+01:002016-06-11T17:16:50.471+01:00"So if Britain was to withdraw from the EU, a..."So if Britain was to withdraw from the EU, at a stroke we'd find that theoretical devolved powers would become actual devolved powers."<br /><br />Is this strictly true James... I thought that the UK (ie Wastemonster) was the signatory so the powers would remain there surely...?fynesiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16004561936077805599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-39026354727525748792016-06-11T16:59:33.673+01:002016-06-11T16:59:33.673+01:00Keaton
LoL - I'm voting Remain - must get a p...Keaton<br /><br />LoL - I'm voting Remain - must get a proof reader!Marcianoreply@blogger.com