tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post7602528342106413483..comments2024-03-28T15:09:16.383+00:00Comments on SCOT goes POP!: SNP are right to reconsider their stance (or non-stance) on English fox-huntingJames Kellyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-57616540848875447062015-05-20T14:36:40.988+01:002015-05-20T14:36:40.988+01:00Reads like calls from folks to save the English an...Reads like calls from folks to save the English and their foxes from themselves....I voted SNP for them to get me independence, if England votes Tory then hell mend em.Running Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00481107803384349382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-62849380266461599552015-05-18T23:09:02.130+01:002015-05-18T23:09:02.130+01:00Aye, remember last September when every single Eng...Aye, remember last September when every single English politician honourably resisted piling in with propoganda, fake data, threats etc. We won't do that, they said, its for the Scots to decide.<br /><br />Except they didn't say that, did they.<br /><br />I couldnt care less what the hoorays do with their foxes but an opposition MP is there to make the government's life as difficult as possible. That is their job.<br /><br />Particularly when that bunch of shysters are ruling over us courtesy of 36.9% of votes. <br /><br />Default position is oppose everything until you have a proposition that benefits YOUR constituents. Stick to this simple principle and your integrity cannot be questioned. <br /><br />AM.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-40772613439817081612015-05-18T21:31:05.452+01:002015-05-18T21:31:05.452+01:00The affected party - the foxes - certainly did not...The affected party - the foxes - certainly did not vote for the Tories.Annettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08585870150928387172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-89265133315101664942015-05-18T17:36:44.155+01:002015-05-18T17:36:44.155+01:00"What you were proposing there was giving cre...<i>"What you were proposing there was giving credibility to an undemocratic institution in exchange for (as far as I could see) no likely return."</i><br /><br />I don't even know what that means. The Lords passes laws that we must and do obey. How can we confer more credibility on it than we already give it?James Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-73914159056445055382015-05-18T16:37:13.516+01:002015-05-18T16:37:13.516+01:00It's for the English to decide.
Why shoot you...It's for the English to decide.<br /><br />Why shoot yourself in the foot. Like we need that.devorgillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11885637866018093933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-22289015947441271222015-05-18T15:09:26.601+01:002015-05-18T15:09:26.601+01:00Watch out. Julian Fellowes will be along to compla...Watch out. Julian Fellowes will be along to complain about your prejudice against that long-oppressed underclass, the landed gentry.keatonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-9779387799907622152015-05-18T15:01:38.826+01:002015-05-18T15:01:38.826+01:00That she specificially gave that example is undeni...That she specificially gave that example is undeniably a problem for the party if they now go back on it. That still doesn't make it right to allow people to torture animals to death.keatonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-19965601126940261252015-05-18T14:47:35.060+01:002015-05-18T14:47:35.060+01:00On principle I would have sided with the 'it&#...On principle I would have sided with the 'it's devolved so the SNP should not vote on it' stance.<br /><br />However, I understand it affects Wales right now so is not an 'English only' matter.<br /><br />Also, it does affect Scotland. For example, Scotland could be used to breed dogs used in English hunts. Scottish foxes could stray into England where they are killed by English hunts. English hunt dogs could stray into Scotland as they chased a fox. English hunters could stray into Scotland. English foxes, to avoid dog packs, might migrate into Scotland, affecting Scotland's fox population.<br /><br />Anyway, you could certainly say it's not an England only thing if you really wanted too before even going near the morals of tearing helpless animals with the intelligence of domestic cats/dogs apart for fun.<br />Scottish_Skiernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-40019906795392474062015-05-18T14:42:22.581+01:002015-05-18T14:42:22.581+01:00Principles are something you stick with, regardles...<i>Principles are something you stick with, regardless of circumstance.</i><br /><br />Does this apply regardless of the magnitude of the issue? Suppose the Commons were holding a vote on slaughtering disabled children at birth in England and Wales, and the SNP held the balance on the issue - would it still be "unprincipled" for them to vote against it?keatonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-83273542183279511282015-05-18T14:39:13.200+01:002015-05-18T14:39:13.200+01:00People were saying things like that on the thread ...<i>People were saying things like that on the thread about the Lords. I'm beginning to wonder if we're a political party or a church.</i><br /><br />The Lords is a different matter. What you were proposing there was giving credibility to an undemocratic institution in exchange for (as far as I could see) no likely return.<br /><br />If the SNP voting on foxhunting means the difference between retention and repeal, then of course they should do it.keatonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-16288135506250739022015-05-18T14:34:42.064+01:002015-05-18T14:34:42.064+01:00Pretty sure foxes don't vote, and they're ...Pretty sure foxes don't vote, and they're the ones who will be suffering the consequences.<br /><br />Still, I'm sure that while they're being ripped apart by a pack of dogs, they will console themselves with the thought that they're helping to make a political point on your behalf.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-23022560259784429802015-05-18T14:27:39.635+01:002015-05-18T14:27:39.635+01:00The Border Hunt country stretches from the River R...The Border Hunt country stretches from the River Rede in the south to Jedburgh in the north, covering hill and open moorland which straddles the Scottish/English border.waterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03242753707412340371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-3860511408439143452015-05-18T14:23:34.340+01:002015-05-18T14:23:34.340+01:00Firstly I consider Fox Hunting, as in Tory Toffs g...Firstly I consider Fox Hunting, as in Tory Toffs going hooray around the countryside on horses with packs of baying hounds in tow an abomination. I hope the SNP does vote against its reintroduction to England though as anything that gets up the noses of the Brit Nat Tories is to be welcomed. Tally ho!Iain Morenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-21298862792924543132015-05-18T13:23:01.972+01:002015-05-18T13:23:01.972+01:00"Of course Tory MPs will hiss and stamp their...<i>"Of course Tory MPs will hiss and stamp their feet about the SNP "breaking their word", but nobody who actually matters will give a monkey's"</i><br /><br />Indeed. It 's also pretty fucking telling that the out of touch twits at the top of the tory party chose foxhunting to try and appease their lunatic right-wingers so early on. <br /><br />They had also best get used to it because with that small a majority and all the promises the Cameron gave them about a return to the nasty party tory 'red-meat' policies they certainly won't be satisfied with just one token issue like this. <br /><br />It also didn't work the last time the coward Cameron and Osbrowne tried it because the tory rebellions on the EU and other issues came so frequently in the last parliament precisely <i>because</i> Cameron kept caving in and trying to placate the lunatic wing of his party. Almost 100 of them voted for an EU referendum remember despite the fop imposing a three line whip on them. Pointless posturing as Cameron then caved in to them and the kippers fairly soon afterwards and promised one. That's the kind of thing the tory backbenchers tend to notice and remember. So when the excuses start about the 'renegotiation' posturing being the dampest of damp squibs expect a massive revolt and the IN/OUT split in the tory party to become a gaping chasm as Cameron reprises his John Major impersonation.<br /><br /><br /><i>"Real politics is messier than that - of course circumstances matter."</i><br /><br />Very true. The tories never used to give a crap about the WLQ and EV4EL and most of them weren't bright enough to read the McKay commission or even notice that Cameron had completely bottled the issue not that long ago. So it will at least be very funny watching them stamp their little feet and have a tantrum like a bunch of toddlers as they join in with the dumbest of the right-wing tabloids in shrieking and whining about scottish MPs doing something they are perfectly entitled to do. <br /><br />Let's face it, that petulant resentment of scottish MPs is going to be the default position of the idiot tabloids and most of the tory and Labour party from now on anyway. It's not as if the westminster bubble twits were in any danger of grasping scottish politics before all this with their hilarious praise of the uber-Blairite Murphy and the historic record breaking SNP landslide.<br /><br />There are still more pandas than tory MPs, and now more pandas than Labour MPs and lib dem MPs in scotland for those who still don't get it.Mick Porknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-76360653423740389812015-05-18T12:33:58.019+01:002015-05-18T12:33:58.019+01:00Perhaps the SNP should say that they will abstain ...Perhaps the SNP should say that they will abstain from the bill only if assurances are given that a fox hunting ban will remain in place within so many miles of the border. This would protect against any fox hunts straying over into Scotland.<br /><br />As this offer would probably be rejected it would then give the SNP an excuse for voting against repealing the ban.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-66542745294382329502015-05-18T12:17:34.177+01:002015-05-18T12:17:34.177+01:00And what about the Welsh?
Stuff 'em?And what about the Welsh? <br /><br />Stuff 'em?Arctic Foxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-61177180457283727282015-05-18T12:12:06.340+01:002015-05-18T12:12:06.340+01:00Rolfe, I had not realised that Nicola had withdraw...Rolfe, I had not realised that Nicola had withdrawn the "self-denying ordinance", if that twitter statement is correct. That does rather undermine my trust point (though not on the House of Lords).<br /><br />I still think that it is a good idea to emphasise the differences between the views held in the two countries, and to highlight the ludicrous internal contradictions of the half-baked asymmetrical devolution system imposed by our inept former Imperial Masters of the Labour Party. I also believe that we should assume as much independence as we can, and act with much of the dignity of a nation state. An excellent example was the renaming of the Scottish Executive (Cringe!) as the "Scottish Government".<br /><br />I am, however, gey swiert to go against the views of the First Minister - I have a great deal of confidence in her and her advisers!FergusMachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01068159554801149940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-53531029978537935412015-05-18T11:37:36.568+01:002015-05-18T11:37:36.568+01:00"By ostentatiously not voting on purely Engli..."By ostentatiously not voting on purely English matters (where such can actually be identified), SNP MPs are reinforcing the view that the two countries are, in fact, separate polities. It is a bit like the New Zealand approach - act as if you are more and more independent, and you wake up one day and find that your are. That is certainly the narrative I believe we should be fostering."<br /><br />Absolutely. And this is why I disagree with Fiona and agree with FergusMac - in general. But should there be exceptions when it comes to matters of principle that transcend national boundaries? I'm inclined to go along with the free vote of conscience approach.smerralhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00485958340415489602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-62922538040210285992015-05-18T11:34:45.680+01:002015-05-18T11:34:45.680+01:00As far as I'm aware, far from fighting the ele...As far as I'm aware, far from fighting the election on a "we won't vote on English-only matters" platform, Nicola was quite clear that this long-standing principle was up for review. She explicitly signalled that since England was so damn keen for us not to go, and to be full participants in the UK (even to "lead" the UK according to Cameron), SNP MPs might decide to do just that.<br /><br />I think there are some pretty smart people gaming various scenarios at the moment and deciding what to do. If repeal will happen by a margin of more than 56 votes, is there any point in voting? What sort of a message would it send? Would that message be positive for long-term SNP strategy or not?<br /><br />On the other hand, if the 56 could genuinely secure the continuation of the ban, this is fraught with delicious possibilities. You wanted us, England, and you've got us. How do you like it now? And on a topic where the SNP vote would be clearly principled and in accordance with animal welfare.<br /><br />I'm not going to second-guess the SNP Westminster group's decision. There are seven people there far more wise in the ways of Westminster than I am. But I don't think there's any sacrosanct principle at stake. I think that principle ended with the 2015 election, and that was made pretty clear.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849975010197698907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-60187788173705946942015-05-18T11:32:57.989+01:002015-05-18T11:32:57.989+01:00The SNP is not responsible for the people of Engla...The SNP is not responsible for the people of England voting Tory and the UK left should not expect to be bailed out by the SNP every time the UK government tries to enact a piece of legislation it doesn't like. It is YOUR job to defeat the Tories in England. The fact that you failed to do so (and in such spectacular fashion) shows you need to up your own game. <br />And where were you when we needed you during the referendum? Lined up with the Tories to campaign for a NO vote. <br />The SNP needs to keep its election promises to the Scottish people and that includes not voting on purely English matters. If we fail to do so we will rightly lose support in future elections. <br />Give in on this issue and, before long, the unionists, including the Labour Party, will be rolling back our Scottish government's legislation, including our own fox-hunting ban.Grendalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02207349599903280867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-18530943102075813362015-05-18T11:31:19.743+01:002015-05-18T11:31:19.743+01:00I would suggest there are levels of principle, and...I would suggest there are levels of principle, and when there is a conflict, a choice has to be made.<br /><br />I don't punch people in the face, on principle. But if I saw some drunk guy kicking seven bells out of his girlfriend on the street, I'd flatten him, be it my business or not.<br /><br />You have a principle of not interfering in laws that don't apply to you. I can understand that. But you also have a principle of being a socially just, morally decent centre-left party that doesn't abandon those in need, especially when in this case, they have no voice of their own.<br /><br />So I would offer up that your second principle trumps your first one, in this instance. And I would expect any decent person (especially the type of person you are trying to attract to turn your 45% into 50%+) would appreciate the distinction.<br /><br />I would also think you may wish to support your allies in Wales, who will be affected by this issue and do not have the numbers to stop it. I'm pretty sure they'd appreciate the backup on this one.Arctic Foxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-90835753740953841122015-05-18T11:30:19.061+01:002015-05-18T11:30:19.061+01:00Because it's not our job to save the people of...Because it's not our job to save the people of England and Wales from themselves. And if they have to actually suffer the consequences, then maybe they'll STOP VOTING TORY!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07461410067504103097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-773786343055803222015-05-18T11:14:25.500+01:002015-05-18T11:14:25.500+01:00I disagree. Stick to principles!
And note this art...I disagree. Stick to principles!<br />And note this article from February 2015 (highlighted by George Wallis) where the First Minister gives the fox-hunting example!<br />twitter.com/george_wallis/status/600226571673272320Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-74736653714764132272015-05-18T11:10:55.258+01:002015-05-18T11:10:55.258+01:00I imagine we're all in agreement about the mor...I imagine we're all in agreement about the morality of fox hunting and the reasonableness of voting on certain English-only matters, as a generality and out of context. But what if doing so amounts to you having misled the electorate because you said, in the manifesto or at senior leadership level during the campaign, that you would not? Principles cut both ways: do you go back on your word to voters? Are we not different to those who do that?David Hallidaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-79900082004432811862015-05-18T11:08:45.704+01:002015-05-18T11:08:45.704+01:00I do see the point that Fiona and Sue are making, ...I do see the point that Fiona and Sue are making, and there is a lot of sense in it. The Unionists insist that we are part of the UK, so there is a strong argument for saying that our MPs should act like it. However, it is equally true that the SNP stated clearly that they would not vote on matters not affecting Scotland. That is the trust issue I mentioned above. <br /><br />I am tempted by the thought that it is a free vote, and MPs would be voting as individuals, not along party lines, but I fear it is a slippery slope. <br /><br />By ostentatiously not voting on purely English matters (where such can actually be identified), SNP MPs are reinforcing the view that the two countries are, in fact, separate polities. It is a bit like the New Zealand approach - act as if you are more and more independent, and you wake up one day and find that your are. That is certainly the narrative I believe we should be fostering.FergusMachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01068159554801149940noreply@blogger.com