tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post6860707877784487690..comments2024-03-28T21:16:08.117+00:00Comments on SCOT goes POP!: They "vowed" to thee, this country...James Kellyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-8221030337627838552014-09-23T20:26:09.158+01:002014-09-23T20:26:09.158+01:00I certainly agree that the SNP must be careful not...<i>I certainly agree that the SNP must be careful not to allow the media to define the timescale for them. Alex Salmond failed to correct Andrew Neil when he defined a political generation as "20 years".</i><br /><br />This is exactly my concern and its not without foundation because this was the core weakness of the Yes campaign for the SNP.<br /><br />The campaign run was magnificent, their ideas were excellent, the very fact they had a Conversation Pack to download for GenYes to go talk to Granny on the Sunday before election was - WOW. Just fantastic and a great example of how well they planned and ran the campaign.<br /><br />But, the core weakness they had was allowing the media to set the agenda in those "one of each side" interviews where the BBC et al allowed No to pitch without interruption or question and then put the Yes spokesperson on the defensive. They needed to fight back at that point, right at the start and didn't.<br /><br />My concern is that the way interviews are going with Yes people just now echoes this weakness.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805837667362406549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-91537995725270379862014-09-23T19:51:35.578+01:002014-09-23T19:51:35.578+01:00"Alex Salmond failed to correct Andrew Neil w..."Alex Salmond failed to correct Andrew Neil when he defined a political generation as "20 years"<br /><br />But Salmond did make it clear that it was only "his view", and since he's about to be a backbench MSP, his "view" no longer binds anybody in the nationalist leadership.<br /><br />Personally, I think we'd lose another indyref in the next 10 years, simply because there would be a backlash to having one, and it would be easy to say that were 'ignoring' the first result. Of course, matters could intervene in the next 18 months to 2 years that could alter that calculation (anoter fucking Tory government we won't have voted for EU and a Brexit).Callumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00985135231318968429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-87392824466567279812014-09-23T16:33:24.404+01:002014-09-23T16:33:24.404+01:00Interesting times ahead, James, interesting times ...Interesting times ahead, James, interesting times indeed.<br />JimnArleneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-80441994891205022692014-09-23T15:36:38.622+01:002014-09-23T15:36:38.622+01:00Mick, I think we are agreeing on the same things.
...Mick, I think we are agreeing on the same things.<br /><br />I do not agree with Alasdair saying that we'll lose support.<br /><br />Far from it, we only need to look at the Scottish Social Attitudes Surveys to see what the electorate regularly think.<br /><br />This isn't tories that want devo max, it's labour voters.<br /><br />Going for devo max is the best way to win as many labour seats as possible.<br /><br />You only need to consider the 25% of no voters that voted that way because they wanted more powers.<br /><br /><br /><br />chalksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-5972599173464775852014-09-23T15:31:20.207+01:002014-09-23T15:31:20.207+01:00Alasdair : I certainly agree that the SNP must be ...Alasdair : I certainly agree that the SNP must be careful not to allow the media to define the timescale for them. Alex Salmond failed to correct Andrew Neil when he defined a political generation as "20 years".James Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-46469216716170808352014-09-23T15:07:02.016+01:002014-09-23T15:07:02.016+01:00Well let's just look at that in the cold light...<i>Well let's just look at that in the cold light of day shall we? That's 25,000 members we didn't even have a few days ago and you're seriously implying that we should be spending all our time worrying about a theoretical risk way into the future? Nah. I think we'll take is as read they didn't join on a whim and it's a pretty safe bet they have confidence in the SNP to represent their interests against a corrupt and lying westminster establishment. A clear pathway will be found when the time is right. Days after a No is hardly that.</i><br /><br />It is a risk none the less. Especially with the way it comes across when SNP politicians are interviewed in the media during the part few days. It comes across as defeatists and accepting that Independence is off the agenda for the media decided period of 15 or 25 years depending on the interviewer.<br /><br />I do not see a risk of alienation in making it clear that an Independence Referendum is ONLY off the agenda if All Revenue Devolution is provided by Westminster.<br /><br />But there is a risk in not saying so now, then saying so in three months and have the Unionist parties question why the possibility of another Indyref if they fail on All Revenue Devolution wasn't mentioned.<br /><br />Outside of politics as a supporter of independence, I feel the need for re-assurance, I'm sure I'm not alone. It is up to the SNP politicians to make this clear, to provide hope.<br /><br />If not them, who?<br />If not now, when?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805837667362406549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-30323057909292449822014-09-23T13:57:34.610+01:002014-09-23T13:57:34.610+01:00"and the voters we'll gain from pushing f...<i>"and the voters we'll gain from pushing for devo max will also be switched on to see that when it doesn't happen, the only alternative is indy."</i><br /><br />I'm <i>fairly</i> sure I've been saying exactly that myself as well on previous threads. <br /><br />But it's hardly out of the question to do so while focusing on maximising the electoral gains while hammering the unionist MPs where we can beat them in the 2015 campaign. In fact I would consider both to be complimentary.Mick Porknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-56056232472667964232014-09-23T13:52:38.972+01:002014-09-23T13:52:38.972+01:00"Yet without a clear pathway on Independence ...<i>"Yet without a clear pathway on Independence the risk is the SNP will lose both the enthusiasm and then the participation and then the membership it has gained."</i><br /><br /><br />Well let's just look at that in the cold light of day shall we? That's 25,000 members we didn't even have a few days ago and you're seriously implying that we should be spending all our time worrying about a theoretical risk way into the future? Nah. I think we'll take is as read they didn't join on a whim and it's a pretty safe bet they have confidence in the SNP to represent their interests against a corrupt and lying westminster establishment. A clear pathway will be found when the time is right. Days after a No is hardly that.<br /><br />The far bigger 'risk' was trying to enthuse and mobilise on only 25,000 but that's certainly not something we have to worry about now. :-)<br /> Mick Porknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-83739402837879888052014-09-23T13:44:39.479+01:002014-09-23T13:44:39.479+01:00Alasdair, exactly what I've just said on Wings...Alasdair, exactly what I've just said on Wings.<br /><br />It's the most logical way and the voters we'll gain from pushing for devo max will also be switched on to see that when it doesn't happen, the only alternative is indy.chalksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-39834521366775906862014-09-23T13:35:10.727+01:002014-09-23T13:35:10.727+01:00We use the colossal rise in the Yes parties member...<i>We use the colossal rise in the Yes parties membership to FULL effect to get rid of as many corrupt and out of touch unionist party MPs as we possibly can.</i><br /><br />Yet without a clear pathway on Independence the risk is the SNP will lose both the enthusiasm and then the participation and then the membership it has gained.<br /><br />I don't see any of the new 25k joining the SNP as doing so to "ensure Devo-max", they are doing it to drive forward towards Independence (unless you have data saying otherwise of course).<br /><br />What possibly harm is there stopping this avoidance of the question on Indyref 2 and just stating that the SNP will campaign for Devo-Max in 2015 and if it's not being delivered *consider* another Indyref if elected in 2016?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805837667362406549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-39027353085109740992014-09-23T13:33:22.178+01:002014-09-23T13:33:22.178+01:00James - just added my wee bit to the fundraiser. &...James - just added my wee bit to the fundraiser. 'Scotland' not an option when 'country' is asked. Suppose I cannot complain :(<br /><br /><i>Anon says: If DevoMax was achieved, is there anything that could be done to neutralize the currency problem? Assuming Westminster would try the same currency argument again</i><br /><br />Anon - probably a massive collapse in the value of the pound will do the trick - we don't have to do anything except sit back and wait for the fundamentals to reveal themselves.Craig Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-12874968098032088772014-09-23T13:03:43.554+01:002014-09-23T13:03:43.554+01:00I somehow don't think THIS was what little Ed ...I somehow don't think THIS was what little Ed expected or wanted to see on his 'big day' at the Labour conference.<br /><br /><br />Simply breathtaking.<br /><br />https://twitter.com/PeterMurrell/status/514377856139661312/photo/1<br /><br /><br /><b>@theSNP 50,000 strong!!</b>Mick Porknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-67379714793568112572014-09-23T11:38:36.159+01:002014-09-23T11:38:36.159+01:00"Can you see Labour winning in 2015?"
N...<i>"Can you see Labour winning in 2015?"</i><br /><br />Not if enough of the kipper tories bottle it and switch back to stop little Ed.<br /><br />Obviously not all of them will but enough could. A huge number of them will want that EU referendum while actually looking at Farage as someone to run a country rather than a protest vote will focus their minds just a touch.<br /><br />Little Ed is also god awful in a campaign situation. Look at the pattern for the Locals and EU elections. Labour vote drops sharply when he's out and about. Only time it didn't was when Osbrowne gifted labour a surge after the tory budget omnishambles. <br /><br />The debates between little Ed, calamity Clegg and the fop Cameron look like being comedy gold as well. <br /><br />Be very intersting to hear the excuses for not letting the SNP and Nicola in this time around considering the SNP are now the third biggest party in the UK and all that 'love bombing' about how the scottish people's voice was 'respected'.<br /><br />Again a golden opportunity to point out just how 'Better Together' we are in scotland if they shut us out of the GE debate.Mick Porknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-85154210430495962322014-09-23T11:11:17.055+01:002014-09-23T11:11:17.055+01:00Yeh, I know, when is the trident legislation being...Yeh, I know, when is the trident legislation being signed off? I think it would be clever of the SP to do a referendum on the day of it.<br /><br />Can you see Labour winning in 2015?<br /><br />I just can't see it, they are up now but support will grow for the Tories, I am sure they will also put sweeteners in the Autumn budget as well.<br /><br />Anything we can do to get it through to the scottish people that we are a country and should have a choice in everything that affects us, is the main thing I reckon.<br /><br />There are going to be a few scalps in 2015, some of the majorities are wafer thin, whilst others will take a big hit, but probably survive.<br /><br />The interesting thing about pursuing devo max is that 60 - 70%of the electorate want it. If the Yes Alliance or SNP make it a focal point, then the unionists are going to get it hard, for 2 years they've put us in a vice, now it's time to turn the tables.chalksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-63264989485550503052014-09-23T10:59:36.726+01:002014-09-23T10:59:36.726+01:00@chalks
It's going to be pretty amusing watch...@chalks<br /><br />It's going to be pretty amusing watching the out of touch westminster elite try to object to referenda when they've already had one on AV and Cammie and the tory party are adamant about having another one on IN/OUT of Europe.<br /><br />Some lib dems are already using the WLQ and IndyRef to try to push for new referenda on House of Lords Reform/devolution elsewhere or PR.<br /><br />I've even heard some chatter that labour might eventually look for a way out of the WLQ/EV4EL trap they are in via a referenda of some form tabled for a future date. Far, <i>far</i> into the future I suspect. LOLMick Porknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-46583847949175283482014-09-23T10:31:44.006+01:002014-09-23T10:31:44.006+01:00I was at New Deer to hear Salmond speak.
James is...I was at New Deer to hear Salmond speak.<br /><br />James is effectively singing from the same hymn sheet<br /><br />I agree that Devo Max is what we should be pushing for.<br /><br />The Unionists signed up to a blank paper for more powers, let's fill it in for them.<br /><br />Devo Max...we know there is a majority of the scottish public that want it, it's the 10 - 20% of no voters that did so because they are getting more powers, it's important not to alienate them with the 45% stuff.<br /><br />P.s. there is also nothing stopping the scottish parliament from having a consultative referendum on trident ; )chalksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-88449488985434174752014-09-23T10:29:55.974+01:002014-09-23T10:29:55.974+01:00Is there any proof that Scots would object to a co... <br />Is there any proof that Scots would object to a consultative referendum a few years down the line, especially if/when the Vow proves a sham, Scottish funding is slashed, and Cameron gets in again? <br /><br />It could even be held on the same day as an EU referendum in 2017. <br /><br />Pros for this date:<br /><br />-- "We're answering two great constitutional matters on the one day"<br /><br />-- The electoral infrastructure would already be in place for the EU vote so there'd be no valid complaints about wasted money.<br /><br />-- Folk will be experiencing EU campaign fatigue anyway, so the independence ref. would take less flak for that.<br /><br />-- Yes would avoid the Armageddon stories this time round as the the Eye of Media & Business Mordor would be on Farage. <br /><br />-- The No politicians/apparatchiks/bloggers/Orcs would also have to dissipate their energies elsewhere. <br /><br /><br />Cons?<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />Sean McNultyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17417132693074694333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-90909374711112473752014-09-23T07:31:57.014+01:002014-09-23T07:31:57.014+01:00Yougov continues to be interesting. Check oot SNP ...Yougov continues to be interesting. Check oot SNP share of the UK total over the past few weeks.<br /><br />40% in the subsets too this morning, and that's with a 44 to 28 down-weighting. 28% for Labour.<br /><br />On Sunday, Ed got 15% sat vs 80% unsat in Scotland. Nice.Scottish_Skiernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-10588289765973424952014-09-22T23:54:38.689+01:002014-09-22T23:54:38.689+01:00Thanks Mick.
Good read!Thanks Mick. <br /><br />Good read!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-61227475172440861242014-09-22T23:44:44.018+01:002014-09-22T23:44:44.018+01:00Sorry Tris. Occasionally tweet links don't wor...Sorry Tris. Occasionally tweet links don't work as they should, but here's a link that should work.<br /><br />http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29306444Mick Porknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-82107075375505148932014-09-22T23:42:13.021+01:002014-09-22T23:42:13.021+01:00The unionist parties all vehemently opposed puttin...The unionist parties all vehemently opposed putting DevoMAX on the ballot. End of story.<br /><br />Those who didn't understand "holding their feet to the fire over promises of more powers" would do well to rid themselves of the preposterous notion that we can do anything other than campaign with that at the forefront mere DAYS after a No. <br /><br />We focus like laser on keeping the 45 and the Yes parties together and continuing the fightback. NOTHING matters more than that right now.<br /><br />We campaign on exposing the lies and that will obviously involve pointing out that they lied about DevoMAX just as much as they lied about the vow. <br /><br />Nor do we stop there. We make damn certain every campaign promise and pledge from the westminter elite gets the precise same treatment as "the VOW". <br /><br />We also highlight every single example of just how "Better Together" we are in the 2015 run up. <br /><br />We use the colossal rise in the Yes parties membership to FULL effect to get rid of as many corrupt and out of touch unionist party MPs as we possibly can. <br /><br />Then and only then can we look towards 2016. Whoever wins the bunfight at westminster has it all to prove on more powers and will be judged on them <i>somewhat</i> harshly by the scottish public should they fall lamentably short. (and they WILL)<br /><br />Talking in certainties about UDI right now is pretty much pointless. The notion the the SNP or any of the Yes parties have somehow given up on Independence is also absurd. We work with what we have not with hypotheticals for the distant future. Right now we self-evidently can't go on Independence so we go with holding the westminster parties feet to the fire on more powers while exposing their lies and revealing the utter hypocrisy inherent in the "Better Together" slogan.<br /><br />You don't need to agree with it but, rest assured, I for one am convinced that will be the strategy for the foreseeable future and I happen to agree with it.<br /><br /><b>*DevoMAX - All powers apart from foreign affairs and defence.</b>Mick Porknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-42801254812422864282014-09-22T23:28:58.625+01:002014-09-22T23:28:58.625+01:00Mick. The links to the Tesco story are broken... o...Mick. The links to the Tesco story are broken... or the pages have been removed by the BBC?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-59465261372973661832014-09-22T23:11:06.097+01:002014-09-22T23:11:06.097+01:00Correct Anonymous. Westminster is sovereign. 50% o...Correct Anonymous. Westminster is sovereign. 50% of the vote = mandate for independence and we simply declare it. The SNP have nothing to lose at Westminster and should go for it head first. Its mana from heaven if you are a depressed yes voter.November13https://www.blogger.com/profile/03249463580152897462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-37237190129209515802014-09-22T23:07:54.445+01:002014-09-22T23:07:54.445+01:00I personally don't think the 1.6m are interest...I personally don't think the 1.6m are interested in Devo Max. It won't get rid of Trident nor will it secure our oil revenues.Devo Max is just another name for more devolution. Its independence and control of everything that is the 45s aim.I couldn't care less about more tinkering with devolution.November13https://www.blogger.com/profile/03249463580152897462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-48547326454151442442014-09-22T23:00:13.791+01:002014-09-22T23:00:13.791+01:00Remember that Tavish Scott back in 2011 told the p...Remember that Tavish Scott back in 2011 told the people of Scotland that if they want Independence then vote SNP.<br /><br />It has been accepted for decades by the English parties that if the SNP get a majority of MPs then they have a mandate for UDI. <br /><br /> A rigged vote and the best efforts of the BBC change nothing. Sovereignty rests with US not THEM!<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com