tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post5052373602818211247..comments2024-03-29T10:31:21.056+00:00Comments on SCOT goes POP!: Could Brexit trigger another type of second referendum?James Kellyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-78612426134446063322016-06-06T11:27:47.793+01:002016-06-06T11:27:47.793+01:00But didn't they try this in Catalonia and find...But didn't they try this in Catalonia and find that it was successful sabotaged because those opposed to Catalan independence stayed away rendering the result meaningless. There's nothing the SNP could do to stop the press mounting an abstention campaign and the boycott of the referendum becoming g the main story rather than the vote itself given that the press can make it the main story and what the BBC covers is dictated to by what the press cover alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307986658978359972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-12640975117376747622016-06-06T00:05:11.224+01:002016-06-06T00:05:11.224+01:00"Anyone who believes we can have a prosperous..."Anyone who believes we can have a prosperous life under the present bunch of robber barons in charge at Westminster is an obvious candidate for the room with the rubber wallpaper at the laughing academy."<br /><br />Indeed. It confuses me why anyone, and I mean UK wide, would allow themselves to be governed by these laughing stocks who come across as cartoonish characters out of a very poor anime, is beyond me.<br /><br />The king has no clothes appears to be merited for the whole damn lot of them.<br /><br />douglas clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11422060678908705962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-15839680574845831672016-06-05T23:59:46.867+01:002016-06-05T23:59:46.867+01:00Probably more prosperous post 1707 but do bang yer...Probably more prosperous post 1707 but do bang yer heid against the rubber. The taxpayers money that should be helping the less well aff is feeding the beaurocrats in the EU, Holyrood etc. We do not need them.Glasgow Working Class 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-88702027676327297942016-06-05T23:49:44.876+01:002016-06-05T23:49:44.876+01:00Anyone who believes we can have a prosperous life ...Anyone who believes we can have a prosperous life under the present bunch of robber barons in charge at Westminster is an obvious candidate for the room with the rubber wallpaper at the laughing academy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-82863985371620081292016-06-05T22:43:21.299+01:002016-06-05T22:43:21.299+01:00This is a fair point, but presumes economic prospe...This is a fair point, but presumes economic prosperity is maintained no matter what the political situation is. That's obviously not the case.Scottish_Skiernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-46045008789646956052016-06-05T22:39:01.340+01:002016-06-05T22:39:01.340+01:00Most people probably want a good prosperous violen...Most people probably want a good prosperous violent free life with their neighbour and not petty nationalism. And certainly not giving up Scottish sovereignty to the Gernan Franco Alliance.Glasgow Working Class 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-2014737460724239492016-06-05T22:16:29.887+01:002016-06-05T22:16:29.887+01:00Eat your cereal, 23.Eat your cereal, 23.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-7494157884263986012016-06-05T21:50:38.859+01:002016-06-05T21:50:38.859+01:00"because it will never happen"
If the S...<i>"because it will never happen"</i><br /><br />If the SNP decide to pull the trigger, of course it will happen. They may need the help of an ingenious lawyer to make a consultative referendum court-proof, but it'll happen.James Kellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-60530317961979631042016-06-05T21:33:51.550+01:002016-06-05T21:33:51.550+01:00Having seen this now develop, I hate to say this b...Having seen this now develop, I hate to say this but if remain wins, indyref in our lifetimes is dead.<br /><br />A UK remain vote indicates sovereignty is less important than economics and project fear 3.0 will work. That is what will win indyref. <br /><br />And to be brutally honest, failure of indyref and UKref means there are large numbers of people who believe they are too wee, too poor and too thick. And that the wisemen of Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan need to be listened to. <br /><br />The vitality and strength 240 years ago in the newly formed USA was absent in Scotland and may be absent in the UK.<br /><br />George StewartAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-32787889864391135502016-06-05T20:20:42.853+01:002016-06-05T20:20:42.853+01:00No made up history here, my knowledge goes beyond ...No made up history here, my knowledge goes beyond writing 'FTP' or '1690' on a bus shelter. Appropriate that you mention Stalin, however. Were it not for Soviet Russia taking the full brunt of Hitler's war machine, there would be nothing of your beloved UK today.Provost Sluddenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11793960450021330292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-85041383710286650102016-06-05T20:05:23.817+01:002016-06-05T20:05:23.817+01:00If we leave and we should it will give the Nat si...If we leave and we should it will give the Nat sis a major dilemma. Will they stay in the Union or sell Scotland to Herman and the Frogs. It is clear as that.Glasgow Working Class 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-6672756151168487912016-06-05T20:00:41.353+01:002016-06-05T20:00:41.353+01:00The Nat sis dae not care about majorities or min...The Nat sis dae not care about majorities or minorities they are Nat sis.<br />Glasgow Working Class 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-38723575398376205052016-06-05T19:07:27.511+01:002016-06-05T19:07:27.511+01:00Apparently, France has already killed it. FREXIT i...Apparently, France has already killed it. FREXIT is not on the menu. Mr Cameron failed the testosterone test months ago. Don't let his stupidity and false promises cloud the issue. Twatosterone ought not to be confused with balls. Don't confuse dead pig and manhood.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-60085723077019112302016-06-05T16:46:42.679+01:002016-06-05T16:46:42.679+01:00I definitely agree that no one opposed to TTIP sho...I definitely agree that no one opposed to TTIP should see Brexit as the way to stop it. alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307986658978359972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-9705825351742720172016-06-05T16:34:39.044+01:002016-06-05T16:34:39.044+01:00That's why, on balance, I think the SNP have b...That's why, on balance, I think the SNP have been right to state the possibility of indyref2 in the event of Brexit. What's never commented on is the fact that the UK government would never grant indyref2 after what happened in the last indyref, so the issue isn’t whether indyref2 would be won or not, because it will never happen, but what effect it has to talk up the possibility of indyref2 as if it could happen. For those who say we don’t need Westminster’s permission, I’d point you to Nicola Sturgeon’s statement that independence will only happen as a result of a referendum and any referendum not granted by the UK government would be meaningless because NO voters would be advised by the press to ignore it en mass. So the effect of talking up indyref2 must lie elsewhere. I suspect one reason the SNP does it is to stop Scots from just shrugging their shoulders and accepting that there's nothing we can do about it. After the slim majority for devolution was nullified in 1979 by the 40% rule, Scots did collectively shrug their shoulders, because that was how things were at that point and in fact the SNP did very badly in the election that followed. So the fact that UK commentators now regularly make reference to the possibility the UK might break up after Brexit shows how much the view of scots as just taking what’s doled out to them has changed.alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307986658978359972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-15530982745821530962016-06-05T16:23:27.659+01:002016-06-05T16:23:27.659+01:00Also interesting to hear Gove today talking about ...Also interesting to hear Gove today talking about no completion of Brexit inside the life of this parliament.<br /><br />I wonder, if it was a narrow Leave, would we end up with a second referendum right at the end, maybe five years hence before we finally pulled the trigger?<br />I guess it would depend on public opinion, but if the Leave brigade did indeed make a complete hash of the exit negotiations, there might be some buyers remorse. Not to mention a good slug of younger voters who would feel they were not given a voice.<br /><br />And I would expect that the EU would be more than happy to let the UK climb down at the last minute. Not only would they get what they want, it would weaken the British negotiating position considerably.<br />In fact if I was in Brussels I'd be looking to make any post-Leave negotiations as slow and painful as I could to try and force an about-turn from the British populace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-63382191367927826722016-06-05T15:45:47.714+01:002016-06-05T15:45:47.714+01:00I agree with this. I don't believe a UK-wide l...I agree with this. I don't believe a UK-wide leave vs a Scottish Remain itself would suddenly boost support for indy; it would swing things to Yes for sure, but more narrow Yes I feel.<br /><br />However, the grandiose clusterfuck that follows as Boris et al. take over, the UK economy tanks, trade negotiations drag on and on etc would make Scotland a veritable haven of peace stability, with independence in the EU the safe, status quo option.Scottish_Skiernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-31672708402502560642016-06-05T15:14:58.644+01:002016-06-05T15:14:58.644+01:00'will'? I think the word you're lookin...'will'? I think the word you're looking for is 'may', unless your other car is a Tardis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-30538840270925668402016-06-05T15:03:19.085+01:002016-06-05T15:03:19.085+01:00Because Scotland will vote Remain and England will...Because Scotland will vote Remain and England will vote Leave. Indyref2 for Scotland coming soon.Dan Huilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-80165867491803809212016-06-05T14:57:01.787+01:002016-06-05T14:57:01.787+01:00I don't understand the thought process behind ...I don't understand the thought process behind thinking that leaving the EU would prevent the UK government from signing a similar deal to TTIP with the US. I also don't understand how people have managed to miss the stories about the opposition to TTIP in its current form by France and Germany:<br /><br />http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/064dc2ee-2665-11e6-8ba3-cdd781d02d89.html<br />http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ttip-trade-deal-under-threat-due-after-germany-claims-us-not-making-any-serious-concessions-a7019291.html<br />http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/be91f3ca-273c-11e6-8b18-91555f2f4fde.html<br /><br />I don't see the UK government showing any similar opposition or scepticism to the deal, though I'd be happy to stand corrected.<br /><br />To your last point, I don't think the EU are going to make any deals with the UK until after it votes to leave. Then I think it will be years of negotiations, during which the UK economy will suffer, due to the uncertainty. If the EU negotiators are really savvy, they'll restrict freedom of movement for UK citizens in the rest of the EU right away (in exchange for the UK being allowed to restrict movement to the UK from the EU) and watch at how much it fucks up people's lives. After a few years of this, they'll suggest that the UK run another referendum, and the UK will vote to overturn the Leave vote and remain in the EU.Hollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-54721918072281957792016-06-05T14:55:48.527+01:002016-06-05T14:55:48.527+01:00Yes, because our referendum was so good tempered a...Yes, because our referendum was so good tempered and full of pleasant, respectful debate...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-69657094384440364232016-06-05T14:45:58.531+01:002016-06-05T14:45:58.531+01:00Well, this current ref, with all its resulting sto...Well, this current ref, with all its resulting stooshieness, is definitely showing the difference between Scotland an England. Two very different countries no matter what the imperialist BBC thinks.Dan Huilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-28144777974607638072016-06-05T12:21:53.580+01:002016-06-05T12:21:53.580+01:00I think there are long term consequences to a narr...I think there are long term consequences to a narrow leave vote in England being trumped by a narrow remain vote in the UK as a whole. The Tories might not want to destabilise the union but Cameron decided to have a referendum in order to deal with UKIP and such an outcome would strengthen rather than weaken UKIP so the Tory Government would be forced to do something to assuage English public opinion and revolt within Tory grassroots. Funnily enough it's he SNP's insistence on Scottish consent to any leave that makes this more difficult to handle. It’s impossible to know what the long term consequences of this would be but in the short term I could easily see it leading to Tory grassroots and certain MP’s refusing to accept defeat and making it impossible for the Cameron to get legislation through. What the Tory Eurosceptic’s objectives would be in that situation is more difficult to work out. One would be to topple Cameron and get Boris elected to be Tory leader which obviously would have implications in Scotland if the Eurosceptics were running the country. I suspect Boris would be more populist than Cameron and would use issues like the West Lothian Question and the Barnett Formula to win back voters who have deserted the Tories for UKIP. So a remain vote depending on Scotland would lead to Scotland continuing to be used as a bogeyman by politicians down south. <br /><br />For me the more interesting question is what happens if Scotland votes decisively to remain but leave wins, then after the vote we discover that project fear was right and it turns out that the consequences of leaving hits Scotland hard economically and also ushers in a more extreme form of neo-liberal politics in Westminster. How would this effects politics in Scotland and pressure for indyref2.<br />alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307986658978359972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-55351337483743071932016-06-05T12:19:36.344+01:002016-06-05T12:19:36.344+01:00If we (collectively) vote to STAY, but only with S...<i>If we (collectively) vote to STAY, but only with Scotland's large pro vote</i><br /><br />Have you run the numbers on this?<br /><br />Scotland seems to be roughly 65-35, give or take. So for the Scottish vote to swing the election from Leave to Remain, we'd have to be looking at 49-51 in favour of leave without the Scots for us to make that kind of difference. Once you get to even as close as 48-52, we don't make enough of a difference given we're only around 12% of the population.<br /><br />Not saying it can't happen, but you're talking about an extremely narrow range of outcomes where it does. And even then you could just point to a different demographic as being the cause.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-36972002514156632602016-06-05T12:03:55.633+01:002016-06-05T12:03:55.633+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17307986658978359972noreply@blogger.com