tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post3850458159004576662..comments2024-03-29T11:59:17.118+00:00Comments on SCOT goes POP!: Have the Greens just killed their own "2nd vote" strategy by voting against Full Fiscal Autonomy for Scotland?James Kellyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comBlogger98125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-68345704938085471642015-07-06T10:35:35.532+01:002015-07-06T10:35:35.532+01:00Maybe the NE List in 2011 was a bad example...afte...Maybe the NE List in 2011 was a bad example...after all that was unusual in as much as it was the first time any party gained all the constituencies and still got a list member.<br /><br />In 1999 Labour got all 10 Glasgow constituencies and no list members. They also got all the 9 West Coast constituencies and no list members. In 2003 they again got all the Glasgow constituencies and no list members. In 2007 nobody got all the constituencies on any one list. 2011 we have already discussed.<br /><br />If we assume that the SNP are likely to sweep the board all over the country in terms of constituencies then the chances are they will not get any list seats. As in the four times that any one party has gained all the constituencies only once has that party also got a list seat. The proportion of votes needed to switch from the SNP to Green on the list would therefore only be in the region of 20,000 to 30,000 to see the Greens getting one or two or even three seats. While the SNP would need in the region of 150,000 just to get one. Is that likely on the lists outside the North East? Can the SNP even count on the North East after all not one single North East Council voted "Yes" except Dundee. Now do you see where I'm going with this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-7161251948948412662015-07-05T04:46:13.865+01:002015-07-05T04:46:13.865+01:00"The "be nice to another political party...<i>"The "be nice to another political party so you can maybe get some of their second votes even though SNP supporting sites like this one consistently hammer the point that you should never ever under any circumstances ever ever vote for the Greens ever" line is pretty ridiculous at the best of times."</i><br /><br />Raymond, you've got the wrong end of the stick, old chap. Nobody is suggesting that the Greens should do that, other than the Greens themselves. (They aren't making a terribly good fist of it so far, hence my observation.) If you and others of like mind have managed to dissuade them from pursuing that strategy, that's something to be warmly welcomed. They should try to win votes on the merits of their arguments, rather than beg for "tactical" votes.<br /><br /><i>"About the best anyone can seem to offer for the SNP is some half-baked tactical voting argument."</i><br /><br />Are you on drugs? James Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-16428869633550428272015-07-05T04:38:04.351+01:002015-07-05T04:38:04.351+01:00"Everyone who can read a bar chart can see th...<i>"Everyone who can read a bar chart can see that FFA doesn't make any sense under the current circumstances"</i><br /><br />Well, I can read a bar chart, so that rather disproves your point.<br /><br /><i>"Instead of tarring and feathering the Greens for stating the obvious it might be a better idea to take their views on board."</i><br /><br />Wouldn't it be more honest to say 'our' rather than 'their'?James Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-26642790579282474102015-07-04T03:54:30.956+01:002015-07-04T03:54:30.956+01:00"If there is some kind of hearts and minds op..."If there is some kind of hearts and minds operation aimed at getting SNP supporters to vote Green on the list, I'm not sure that sort of comment is the most obvious way of going about it. But then the Scottish Greens have always had a novel approach to public relations - they once employed James Mackenzie as their press officer."<br /><br />The "be nice to another political party so you can maybe get some of their second votes even though SNP supporting sites like this one consistently hammer the point that you should never ever under any circumstances ever ever vote for the Greens ever" line is pretty ridiculous at the best of times.<br /><br />The only way the Greens are going to win enough votes to get into a coalition in 2016 is if they underline the (as it happens many) reasons why they offer superior policies to the SNP. They're to the left of the SNP, they're far more radical in their approach to tackling inequality, they actually take the environment seriously and they have genuine principles that go beyond independence, to name four. About the best anyone can seem to offer for the SNP is some half-baked tactical voting argument.Raymondnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-12144817186511094602015-07-04T03:35:14.401+01:002015-07-04T03:35:14.401+01:00"If severe, it loses its majority. Which woul..."If severe, it loses its majority. Which would be a very serious setback not just for the party but for the independence movement as a whole."<br /><br />A Green/SNP coalition would be by far the most likely outcome if the SNP lost its majority. That's not a serious setback to the independence movement - in fact it's not a setback at all. It would keep the SNP honest while retaining a pro-independence majority. It would also in my opinion lead to significantly better governance of the country and a government that actually takes radical policy decisions (rather than merely paying lip service to radical politics, as the SNP has a habit of doing).Raymondnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-52008044322022050242015-07-04T03:29:31.576+01:002015-07-04T03:29:31.576+01:00The Greens are getting slated here for taking the ...The Greens are getting slated here for taking the issue seriously while the SNP were intent on merely playing to the gallery - shouting loudly for full fiscal autonomy for the sole reason that they knew it would get voted down regardless. It was another case of the Greens getting it right and refusing to sell their principles down the river even when it risked making them unpopular with a section of the electorate. That's exactly why we need them in power in 2016 in a coalition.<br /><br />The fundamental difference between the two parties is that the Greens want to change society for the better and think independence is a means to an end, while the SNP think independence is an end in itself and simply adapt their platform accordingly. Everyone who can read a bar chart can see that FFA doesn't make any sense under the current circumstances: we'd be left with a shortfall of several billion in comparison to the status quo but without any of the levers required to make radical changes to our economy. Instead of tarring and feathering the Greens for stating the obvious it might be a better idea to take their views on board. Raymondnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-55589321698683827902015-07-03T01:24:39.350+01:002015-07-03T01:24:39.350+01:00They lost my vote. I will telling folk exactly why...They lost my vote. I will telling folk exactly why as well! You don't vote with the Tories to shoot down SNP amendments. I will not forget or forgive. Iain Morenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-60968803963997420922015-07-02T18:51:02.510+01:002015-07-02T18:51:02.510+01:00#More Pandas than tory MPs
#More Pandas than Labou...#More Pandas than tory MPs<br />#More Pandas than Labour MPs<br />#More Pandas than lib dem MPs<br /><br />And more chance of a baby panda being born in Scotland and immediately shouting 'Vote SNP!' than there is of a Scottish Green being elected MP.<br />Sunshine on Crieffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-83593337878669527462015-07-02T16:26:31.928+01:002015-07-02T16:26:31.928+01:00I would rather have a clear SNP majority for a sec...<i>I would rather have a clear SNP majority for a second referendum, than having to depend on the Greens throwing up all sorts of conditions in the way.</i><br /><br />My feeling exactly. Couldn't agree more.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206952819245786811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-78316445626706850342015-07-02T16:24:28.613+01:002015-07-02T16:24:28.613+01:00Yes we can. We've been round the houses severa...Yes we can. We've been round the houses several times on this. The SNP's list votes in the NE last time secured an MSP, therefore they were not wasted. If you want an SNP MSP, vote for one.<br /><br />If the right (or wrong!) number of SNP voters had deserted to the Greens/SNP on that occasion, the SNP would have lost the seat and the Conservative candidate would have got it, not the Green. Is this a wise choice?<br /><br />Even if the numbers fall out as desired (which there's absolutely no guarantee they will), the best that can realistically be achieved is to sacrifice one SNP MSP and replace him/her with one Green MSP. In what way is that a good deal, unless you're a Green? The number of people who would have to be persuaded to split their votes to achieve better than this is absolutely unrealistic and could never sensibly be imagined to happen.<br /><br />In parliamentary terms, the strategy WILL damage the SNP. The damage may be trivial, or it may be severe. If trivial, the party ends up with a working majority, just a smaller one than it might have had. If severe, it loses its majority. Which would be a very serious setback not just for the party but for the independence movement as a whole.<br /><br />If it loses its majority, then the best outcome would be a coalition with the Greens. Actually, I think this is actually why Harvie is proposing this destructive strategy - he still wants to be DFM, after being disappointed by the 2011 result which didn't result in the anticipated coalition. I can see why Green supporters like this, but from an SNP point of view it would be disastrous. Particularly in the light of recent events.<br /><br />Less likely, but still possible, is that the unionists learn their lesson from 2007 and force through a unionist grand coalition of some sort. As I said, I think that's unlikely, but if you play with fire there's always a chance you'll get burned.<br /><br />Now can YOU see where you're going with this?Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206952819245786811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-84649558869012632182015-07-02T14:13:15.461+01:002015-07-02T14:13:15.461+01:00Does voting Green with your list vote not make sen...Does voting Green with your list vote not make sense in as much as if we assume that the SNP are going to get all of the constituencies in a regional list (like they did in 2011 in the North East) that makes it almost impossible for them to get a list seat according to the D'Hondt qualification which divides your total overall vote by the number of constituencies you win plus one. So last time round in the North East the SNP got all 10 constituencies giving them a divisor of 11 they got about 140,000 votes but once that was divided by 11 they only got one list seat over the quotient. Labour only got 40,000 votes but got no constituencies and so that was only divided by 1 and they got three seats. The Greens don't stand for constituencies so their qualifier will always be 1....I'm sure you can see where I am going with this.... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-51895320460037630632015-07-02T10:45:33.366+01:002015-07-02T10:45:33.366+01:00No, no-one is on this blog. No, no-one is on this blog. Brotyboynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-22572030175635374742015-07-02T09:59:24.371+01:002015-07-02T09:59:24.371+01:00The people standing for constituencies which stood...The people standing for constituencies which stood to gain from FFA for Scotland voted for it by an overwhelming margin. Unfortunately the people standing for constituencies which stood to lose from FFA for Scotland voted against it. Hardly surprising, but that's where we are in the union.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849975010197698907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-13334373647901332332015-07-02T09:39:40.624+01:002015-07-02T09:39:40.624+01:00Jeff, what if Scotland were to be independent but ...Jeff, what if Scotland were to be independent but with its own Scots Pound as currency? That is my preferred option.<br /><br />I'm also interested to know your preference between Scotland as part of the UK but not in Europe, and Scotland as not in the UK but in Europe? (I'm assuming a 'Brexit' in this scenario).Wee Jock Elliothttps://twitter.com/WeeJockElliotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-82398825023354552272015-07-02T09:29:01.996+01:002015-07-02T09:29:01.996+01:00It's interesting they've chosen to go down...It's interesting they've chosen to go down the "X days to save NewsShaft" route. Puts them in a tricky spot if they miss the target, carry on anyway and want to come back for more funding later.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-88775999403728559412015-07-02T09:01:57.159+01:002015-07-02T09:01:57.159+01:00There are only 115K or so SNP members. The vast ma...There are only 115K or so SNP members. The vast majority are going to vote SNP twice, especially after the SNP's own counter-campaign against this nonsense has been beamed directly to their inboxes. North of 1.5 million are going to vote SNP in the constituency vote. It's the voters rather than the members whose minds would have to be changed for this to work. Ordinary people, not political anoraks.<br /><br />How many people would have to be reached by this argument and convinced by it, for it to have the desired effect? Many tens of thousands at least.<br /><br />This was never a realistic possibility. What was possible was for just enough people to fall for the scam to damage the SNP and let a unionist candidate in through the middle. At BEST, it would swap one SNP seat for one Green seat. Which is no benefit to anyone except the Greens of course, which is, surprise surprise, why they're pushing for it.<br /><br />If this development takes that possibility off the table, whoopee, basically.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849975010197698907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-28503116712225110362015-07-01T22:45:37.319+01:002015-07-01T22:45:37.319+01:00https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/news-scotland-c...https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/news-scotland-cic-newsshaft-and-beyond#/<br /><br />Any donations for these guys? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-42671213651208897992015-07-01T22:05:55.106+01:002015-07-01T22:05:55.106+01:00Patrick Harvie spent a good bit of the afternoon t...Patrick Harvie spent a good bit of the afternoon talking about this subject on Twitter, and made it abundantly clear that he is opposed to Full Fiscal Autonomy.<br /><br />For good measure, he also threw in one or two sarcastic remarks aimed at SNP supporters -<br /><br />David Officer : "Crikey, there's a lot of nonsense flying around on the internet today eh? Imagine political parties having different opinions about things!"<br /><br />Patrick Harvie : "I know, how old fashioned. Why can't we all just be Team Scotland? [ducks for cover]"<br /><br />If there is some kind of hearts and minds operation aimed at getting SNP supporters to vote Green on the list, I'm not sure that sort of comment is the most obvious way of going about it. But then the Scottish Greens have always had a novel approach to public relations - they once employed James Mackenzie as their press officer.James Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516007141763230886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-26957041854939611822015-07-01T21:30:47.121+01:002015-07-01T21:30:47.121+01:00Should she not have listened to the elected member...Should she not have listened to the elected members sent there on a very clear mandate by the Scottish people and made her own mind up on the merits of their case? I see no Scottish green MPs sent to Westminster by the Scottish electorate. Why then should ahe slavishly follow the leader of a party which polled les votes in Scotland at GE than UKIP?<br /><br />Casting her vote in this way is as undemocratic as the whipped mobs who trod through the lobbies from tories and labour who likewise did not give the SNP the benefit of at least being there to listen to the arguments put forward by a group of MPs with as clear a mandate as has been seen for many a year. Poor.<br /><br />MICHAELChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15889823079023584190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-51094223383193093502015-07-01T20:50:12.025+01:002015-07-01T20:50:12.025+01:00Bang goes plan A then... I think. I'd like to ...Bang goes plan A then... I think. I'd like to hear what Patrick Harvie has to say on this. I wonder if he would distance himself and the Scottish branch from his southern colleagues mindset. I could be wrong here (I'm a bit of a newbie, so I probably am), but isn't The Green Party of England and Wales a separate entity? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17206554260667486398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-45575100224569948392015-07-01T20:47:11.262+01:002015-07-01T20:47:11.262+01:00Disappointed in this Green stance - it could cost...Disappointed in this Green stance - it could cost them a lot of list votes in Scotland.<br />I was considering it in my constituency, but not now.<br /><br />The way I see it, FFA or Devo Max is a big step towards independence.<br />Now it simply looks like they can't be trusted.<br /><br />I would rather have a clear SNP majority for a second referendum, than having to depend on the Greens throwing up all sorts of conditions in the way.<br />If we end up in a situation like that then fair enough, but if that arises through SNP tactical voting, it seems like we could be shooting ourselves in the foot.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-83345784600776577392015-07-01T20:34:19.942+01:002015-07-01T20:34:19.942+01:00I think there is a good argument that independence...I think there is a good argument that independence is worth it in the medium to long term, even if you believe we would be slightly worse off in the short term.<br />Scotland's current economic situation is as a result of the current set-up, while other similar sized countries are far better off than us. Looking at the big picture, with the ratio of resources to population, Scotland has huge potential.<br /><br />We can never be allowed to truly prosper under the union, because the UK parties don't want any competition for London, and because keeping Scotland looking like it needs to be subsidised reduces the demand for independence.<br />There was a good reason for the McCrone report being classified as secret.<br /><br />The argument that we can't do better, even under a currency union, is uninspiring at best.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-56785434477594971892015-07-01T20:09:06.522+01:002015-07-01T20:09:06.522+01:00The priority of the list vote can't be emphasi...The priority of the list vote can't be emphasised enough. In Germany a version of the d'Hondt list system is used. My very politically aware German friend told me that there the List vote is seen as by far the most important and gets most attention because it determines in end effect how many seats a Party will winClachangowknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-59375867751274621962015-07-01T19:22:57.970+01:002015-07-01T19:22:57.970+01:00On topic and ignoring the annoying troll, was Caro...On topic and ignoring the annoying troll, was Caroline Lucas actually present during the debate or did she just nip in at the end to cast her votes?<br /><br />I managed to watch most of it but don't recall seeing her there but did notice MPs from other "minority" parties including a certain Carmichael who sits amongst the SNP but with a noticable ring of empty seats around him....MICHAELChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15889823079023584190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-930120922627919768.post-68395963761780112662015-07-01T19:15:40.275+01:002015-07-01T19:15:40.275+01:00I'm not nearly as funny as Mick Pork.I'm not nearly as funny as Mick Pork.Scottish_Skiernoreply@blogger.com