Friday, July 31, 2020

A factional and self-destructive decision

























43 comments:

  1. “Holders of certain strains of opinion within the SNP are making the same mistake that Blairities did a generation ago - ie. they think they're so much in the ascendancy now that there's no cost to themselves in stamping all over the other side. In fact, there's a cost to us all. “

    I think you're getting there, James.

    First they came for the EUrosceptics and real nationalists...

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    1. Good grief. There may be many oppressed groups in this world, but Eurosceptics are not one of them. We've just left the European Union against the decision of the majority.

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    2. And indeed there are more oppressed groups than Edinburgh QCs with Westminster salaries.
      I deplore what has happened in Edinburgh Central. Now, ask yourself how you would feel if you represented 36% of the SNP support and not one of your Scottish “National” Party MPs or MSPs felt able to support your cause in a referendum?
      Nice way (for some) to construct a majority.

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    3. There's also a minority of SNP voters who don't want independence. Should their cause also be supported at parliamentary level?

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    4. There are already parties that don't support independence.
      So these people have options.

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    5. Er...there are also already parties that support Brexit.

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    6. And there are those of us who don't support Br- anything.

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    7. Well, if you're looking for a pro-indy, anti-EU party, I believe Solidarity ticks both boxes.

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    8. You'll be arranging me a meeting with Mike Small, next.

      Trying to make things a bit more general, I suppose that I'm arguing that splitterism can come from the actions of the Inner Party as well as from 'nutty' fringe elements.

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  2. What's a "real nationalist"?

    Just askin' for a (convertable) friend...

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    1. I would suggest that it has something to do recognising national identity and supporting the principle of individual nations being self-governing.
      As opposed to some region within the UK complaining about not being given a fair shout. If people in the SNP incline to the latter then it would be logical to step aside and let Merseyside, South Yorkshire &c have priority for the referendum of their choice.

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    2. A very big "if" there. But they self-evidently don't. (And I say this as an inveterate opponent of the 60-percenters.)

      To even imply otherwise is plain daffy. Or malicious with aforethought. Take your pick.

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  3. "...would have meant she and her staff "make themselves unemployed"..."

    Isn't that the whole point of us seeking independence?

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    1. SNP MPs in WM - YES. They're there to settle up, not settle down. Seems to me of late that there are a guid few down there who are not exactly enamoured with the prospect of 'giving up' their WM employment.

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  4. The Britnats are winning. Champers all found wot!

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  5. I wonder who they will block next? James Dornan and Chris McEleny seem like likely candidates.

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    1. Joanna Cherry is an asset, Chris McEleny a liability. I don't care if he aligns with my views on a bolder constitutional approach. If you've ever had any in-person interaction with him, you'll quickly find that he's the Annie Wells of the SNP.

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  6. I will be looking closely at the views of my potential constituency MSP on a few things before I decide wether to vote for them or not.
    I'm pretty sure my regional vote will not be going to the SNP.
    As someone that has only voted SNP and Indy since the '70s I can't believe i'm saying this.
    Juteman

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    1. Unfortunately I share your feelings, I have always voted SNP since 1979, I cancelled my membership after the attempted stitchup of Alex Salmond, seriously considering my options for Holyrood elections next year.

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    2. Me too. Voted SNP all my life. I'm considering cancelling my membership, today. Weighing this up with the fact the other members of my branch are nice folk who passionately support indy. But this... Hard to get past this.

      SNP are 100% not getting my list vote now, that's for sure. There's literally no way that's going to happen now.

      I'm afraid its got to the stage where we need other indy parties who will hold their feet to the fire. And its going to take years to build them up so they are viable (prior to today, I wasn't going to give up my second vote to another party for that reason). But we haven't had an inch of movement towards indy from the SNP in the last 6 years, and it is now very clear that that won't change any time soon.

      54%. And, astonishingly, my expectation is that as soon as these people (you know who they are) secure their jobs for another term, they will find new excuses to waste the mandate and fail to pursue indy.

      I'm afraid this is the final stink in a long line of stenches.

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    3. So the situation seems to be this. The SNP are shooting themselves in the foot, and their former supporters are gamely shooting themselves in the foot too. The SNP are going cold on independence, and their former supporters are announcing that independence will always come first for them, except when it gets in the way of their chosen factional bug-bear.

      I think it's time we admit that we're heading full-steam towards the (totally avoidable) abolition of devolution, the installation of Douglas Ross as Scotland's defacto leader, and the death of independence as a viable option. And for varying reasons, people across the Yes movement seem to have their hands firmly on the tiller.

      Unfortunately certain people within the SNP leadership, and certain of their former supporters, seem quite comfortable with this all being the case. Ironically, it seems to be the only thing they have in common.

      In fact, it's not just that there appear to be people on both sides of this unnecessarily manufactured tripe who're quite comfortable with sacrificing independence on the altar of factionalism. No, there seem to be people who're actively agitating for that to be the case.

      We can only hope that the SNP stop inflicting these wounds on their own supporters. And that those supporters stop searching for ways to put salt in their own wounds.

      I'd encourage all young people to get out of Scotland now though. Because the way things are going, the SNP are only going to eat themselves, the various factions of the Yes movement are going to go on squabbling, and Boris is going to rub his hands and steal the future of the young with glee. We could barely make it easier for him if we tried.

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    4. "The SNP are going cold on independence, and their former supporters are announcing that independence will always come first for them, except when it gets in the way of their chosen factional bug-bear."

      SNP supporters are now considering making a side bet on a new indy party precisely because the SNP has gone cold on independence. The SNP are not going to pursue indy while the careerists who have taken control are using it as a vehicle for their own politics - the sort of "cancel culture" politics which involves preventing people from having a voice.

      Gosh I wish I could think of a recent example to highlight this.

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    5. Both sides of this discussion have a tendency - especially when discussing it online - to magnify it out of all proportion. The majority of Scots outside the Twittersphere really do not give a damn one way or another about the GRA. I know that's a crushing realisation for the small fringe on both sides of the discussion, whose entire identity has itself come to revolve around obsession with other people's genitals. But if either side of the argument were to froth it up in everyday conversation with ordinary Scots, you'd get a blank look and a bewildered suggestion to lay off the wacky baccy.

      Both sides are also, unfortunately, so deeply entrenched in this fringe social issue now, that if you even have the temerity to observe that neither are achieving anything other than to ensure the continued reign of Westminster over Scotland, both sides will respond by wheeling out the trusty Persecution Complex and insist you're victimising them on behalf of the nefarious "other side". It's becoming a kid's "he hit me first" temper tantrum on a political scale.

      This is what happened to Labour at its worst and least electable. It disappeared up its own arse in a whole storm of teacups, until indulgent factionalism and the quest to be the biggest victim became the sole purpose of their elected officials, their activists, and their squabbling supporters.

      Unfortunately, I don't expect either side to try and take the high road, or seek to put their differences aside in the quest for independence. The factional obsession will continue to dominate.

      Hence why I suggested young people get out of here while they can. Because neither side seems to be doing anything at the moment, other than to work towards continued Westminster rule. And once you've all secured that for a generation, you can all have a big needless fight over which side is more culpable than the other. You'll get to wheel out your persecution complexes all over again while Boris and Gove and whatever other demons are in position then will cry with laughter at how eeeeasy you all were to make do their dirty work for them.

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  7. It would appear that marmalade is very popular with some SNP members. Thank goodness I won't have to choose marmalade.

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    1. Goes with toast.

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    2. Lady marmalade on toast. But not since someone negotiated lifetime immunity from prosecution. That someone being the same woman who is so terrified of being upstaged that she has promoted her coterie of woke handmaidens and simpering girly-men in place of real patriots.

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    3. I keep hearing this 'marmalade' gibe in relation to Angus Robertson, but nobody will tell me what it means, if anything.

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  8. James Kelly's suggestion that "Nicola Sturgeon should step in and put a stop to this blatant stitching up", rather naively assumes she is not directly involved in the stitch up.

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    1. I have no idea whether she is or not. (And unless you have access to private discussions, neither do you.)

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    2. The womxm is married to the chief executive. She is a small-time lawyer who as I seem to recall only met J Cherry once in over a year of JC being the first MP from Scotland's capital, and one of the highest profile MPs in the entire HofC.

      Did NS speak out when her wokenazis were abusing my MP? Did she fuck! She crawled outof her sewer to moan about online abuse of womxn when it is one of her own yoon trannyfanny brigade but not to protect her highest profile MP.

      Nicola St Urgeon is an evil woman. She is a greater enemy of democracy then donald fucking Trump but we are all her prisoners.

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    3. Thank you for your British nationalist views. Your model spitfire reward is in the mail.

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  9. You can't even credit this as a CLEVER factional play, because it totally overplays their hand. If they really wanted to go down this route, they should have just ruled out dual mandates, requiring MPs to resign once elected as MSPs. Given that Cherry had said she would do this regardless, the play would not have been anywhere near as obvious. That would of course have left her with the difficult task of arguing to local members that it was worth losing her talent at Westminster with no guarantee of strong talent replacing her, against Angus Robertson's relatively easy sell of "extra talent at Holyrood while keeping talent secure at Westminster too". 2 strong and well-known elected officials is always going to be the easier pitch to make than "one strong elected official and then hopefully another".

    I'm not saying this would have been morally acceptable either, by the way. I'm just pointing out that I have even less confidence in the NEC if they're going to be both factional and incompetent with it.

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  10. As support for independence is 54% some in the SNP seem determined to do their best to undermine unity. It is probably plonkers from the British Labour Party bringing their old habits in to the SNP or downright British Nationalist sleepers being activated.

    Get the Britnats out of the SNP.

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    1. Get the Skier Irish and Russian types out first.

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    2. Covidia won't be voting.
      It can't spell X.

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  11. This really is bad. I've always advocated voting SNP on both lists and urged everyone to do the same not because I was in love with the SNP leadership, but because everything else seemed like a far too big risk to take. But it does seem know that it might be a risk worth taking. You can't plead for unity among the indy movement (like Sturgeon did only a week ago) and then do this.

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  12. Political parties banning people from being politicians in more than one parliament is hardly unusual,and a politician not attending Holyrood at the same time as attending Westminster is not a disaster for anyone. The idea that Mr and Mrs Sturgeon changed the rules in order to prevent one particular militant lesbian from doing so is pretty far fetched because the rule makes sense.

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    1. Most women are really quite nice if you pluck up the courage to talk to them.

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    2. The problem might be that Mr and Mrs Sturgeon (what are they now - SNP's Mummy and Daddy - this is just getting weird) changed the rules when this particular 'militant lesbian' (why does it matter whether she's a lesbian or not) threatened Mummy's and Daddy's hegemony and not well in advance as you'd expect in a democracy.
      The problem is that Mummy and Daddy seem not to be too arsed to do anything when it comes to independence, but seem very eager to get rid of anyone they perceive as a threat. Now - this is just coming from someone who's an observer from the outside and doesn't know Mummy, Daddy or the 'militant lesbian' personally.

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    3. From what I hear, Mr and Mrs Sturgeon are the SNP National Executive Committee, and Cherry definitely is a militant lesbian, and that's probably the reason she went into politics. The rest of her views are non-comital wishy-washy stuff just like most run of the mill politicians. She doesn't have the courage to involve risk in any attempt to run as a MSP candidate in front of her own party branch, and if she wants to run a leadership challenge to Sturgeon, there is nothing stopping her apart from her own courage.

      Mostly, Cherry is a social media construct. Social media is good at grasping at straws. She is just another privately-educated, solidly middle-class lawyer boomer like the other ones, and like social mediaists, and she certainly has little in the way of leadership qualities, or ideas. She is very much a follower. McEleny is a leader, complete with ideas, but he's not posh enough for the SNP.

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  13. Anyway, it's interesting that no-one has made a comment about the SNP changing their constitution without their membership getting to vote on it. There are various descriptive words for that, and none of them come with pleasant connotations.

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  14. Interesting how quotes of Twitter posts are now part of "news" content now, listen to a radio program about journalism recently, very interesting and that links into an article I read about the power behind words. Till recently most of us were working flat out just to feed ourselves, now we have the time to do the talk but has that made the world a better place. I know this has nothing to do with this article, but is self-determination just going to give us just yet another ruler, we got rid of the Czar and got Stalin, Thatcher then Blair.

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