Saturday, June 13, 2020

Who or what is "tone deaf"? Perhaps it's mainstream journalism - which has misread the public mood on independence so completely in recent weeks

There's a deeply puzzling piece in the  Herald today by Tom Gordon.  He refers to the finding from the Panelbase poll commissioned by this blog that a large majority of the public (if Don't Knows are excluded) are supportive of the 'Plan B' option for seeking an independence mandate - ie. if an indyref is blocked by Westminster, the SNP and Greens would simply go ahead and put an outright commitment to independence in their manifestos for a scheduled election.  Tom notes that the SNP's two leading proponents of the idea have seized on the poll results and are pushing for the proposal to be considered at conference - a reaction he considers to be "tone deaf". In fact it's worse than that, what he actually says is...

"There's tone deaf, and there's this."

The implication being that Angus MacNeil and Chris McEleny are out of tune with the public mood, and that what voters really want is for the SNP to kick independence into the long grass for a considerable number of years.  Tom thinks the party should use that time to "develop a new prospectus", whatever that means, rather than doing what they were actually elected to do - ie. giving people an urgent choice on Scotland's constitutional future due to the material change of circumstances brought about by Brexit.  

All of this begs an extremely obvious question - one that Tom mysteriously doesn't even attempt to address.  If voters don't want Plan B to be explored, why have they just told a leading polling company that they do?  Do they not know their own minds?  Did they somehow misunderstand the question?  As a reminder, here's the exact wording -

If Boris Johnson and the UK Government manage to block an independence referendum, do you think that pro-independence parties such as the SNP and the Greens should consider including an outright promise of independence in their manifestos for a future election, to give people an opportunity to vote for or against the idea?

That seems pretty difficult to misconstrue.  Remember that a large part of the reason the poll showed such a strong majority in favour is the overwhelmingly positive reaction from both SNP voters and people who would currently vote for independence.  Less than 1% of Yes supporters think it's a bad idea, while 86% give the thumbs up.  You don't have to be much of a mystic to work out what's going on here - a sizeable chunk of the electorate (a majority in this particular poll if Don't Knows are stripped out) want independence, and they're actually serious about it.  They're unhappy that Westminster is using undemocratic means to thwart a referendum, and want a way to be found of overcoming that obstacle.  That shouldn't be any great surprise, given that it was only six months ago that Scotland gave the SNP a landslide majority of seats on a manifesto pledge to hold a referendum this year.  The pandemic has pushed the timing back - no-one in their right mind still wants action to be taken imminently.  But people do want a sense of urgency once the crisis is over, rather than years and years of unproductive thumb-twiddling.

At the start of the pandemic, unionist journalists (Deerin, Massie, et al) were almost unanimous in their assessment that fate had dealt the independence movement a crushing blow, and that the British 'family' was coming back together in a time of adversity.  An avalanche of polls since then - from YouGov, Ipsos-Mori, Survation and Panelbase - has told a radically different story.  Having misread the public's instincts and mood so completely, you'd think these individuals might have the humility to ponder whether it's actually mainstream journalism in this country that has yet again proved itself to be "tone deaf".  But, as per usual, it's doubling down that we're seeing.

103 comments:

  1. These poll questions have driven a few people into a frenzy, including the Sturgeon-haters. Not what they were hoping for at all! Tom Gordon is hard pushed these days from outright admitting he's a solid YES voter.

    As for the Herald article, the first two posts underneath do the job perfectly. The first with the usual abnormal and ignorant " SNP is nothing more than an odious fifth column of English Hating bigots", and the reply "And they say comedy is dead" in reply to the bit about the successful union.

    Job done.

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  2. They haven't misread anything James, they know exactly what the situation is but they have to do their best misinterpretaions for the Empire and their readers
    Stop the idea of Independence at all costs, the people must not be allowed to take time to think, we must tell them there is no appetite for Independence at the moment, maybe in a gazillion years from now we can talk about it
    Unionism will never admit to being what they are so why should we expect them to acknowledge us, they must dismiss us, downgrade us, denigrate us because it's the only only option they have short of killing us, and they know that's out inthe year of our Lord 2020 because the world won't stand for that

    The campaign hasn't begun on their side, because their campaign has never stopped, even in the midst of a deathly plague they have continued it because they cannot as hard as they try kill this idea of freedom

    People have seen it now, and they can't unsee it

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    Replies
    1. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 13, 2020 at 10:21 PM

      Why would the Scotgov give money to support the MSM thst is extremely hostile to independence 8 days a week and is in most cases owned by billonaires? How does this advance the cause of independence and is it an acceptable use of public money.

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    2. You beat me to it, exactly what I was thinking. And how come this is not the time to be pushing independence forwards (I have heard there is a pandemic) but there plenty of time to push it back in its box...

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    3. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 15, 2020 at 10:51 AM

      None of the "head in the sand" independence supporters can answer why the Scotgov is giving money to the hated Britush press.

      Get rid of the British and soft yes saboteurs in the SNP.

      Delete
  3. When the next Holyrood election comes around the Scottish Government should include a separate ballot as an advisory referendum "Should Scotland be an Independent country?" Cuts down the expense of holding two different votes. Might galvanise the electorate to come out to vote. It would kill off the moans and groans from the Yes side and if the No side goes to court that would be a win win for the Yes supporting parties.

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    Replies
    1. We Unionists are not moanin we wanted an immediate referendum after you Nazis called for one after the last referendum. But you bottled. You want to sell Scotland out to the EU, you James the 2nd shoooites, keeech.

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    2. No Section 30 = bottling it chickenshit cowards

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    3. Whatever GWC'S views on this or that, remember that he thought Charles II lost the Battle of the Boyne. That ignorant.

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    4. It really is that gormless.
      It's hilarious.

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  4. George Floyd serial criminal.June 13, 2020 at 10:39 PM

    Thanks Whities for making me a hero.

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  5. The biggest reason Scotland needs to be independent as soon as possible is because of the covid payback which is sure to come from the tories in Westminster in a very draconian, unfair and unequal manner. Scotland needs its own approach to rebuilding its economy, healthcare etc etc. For this Scotland needs its own currency and central bank. Scotland needs independence. Without it Scotland will become much poorer and colonialized.

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    Replies
    1. By the EU Masters.

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    2. Scotland does not need a central bank. It needs a treasury of it's own.

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    3. Yes we need our own recovery plan. All reserved powers to be transferred to Holyrood.
      Full borrowing powers to aid investment.
      England's MP's have all these powers already to apply to their recovery plan for England.
      Cap in hand will fail.
      If Willie Rennie and other opposition politicians want change they need to back the SGs calls for equal borrowing powers for Scotland.
      Piss or get off the pot.

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    4. Or we could have indy!

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  6. The countries of the EU joined together after WW2 to help make sure there were no more of those kind of conflicts so England leaves the EU because they can't control it only to join with America to oppose the EU thus creating the space for the upcoming conflict we're seeing now

    Yeah the EU are the bad guys coming over here with their co-operation and their job creation

    Just wait until Germany France and Japan decide they need their motor industry back in their own countries to boost their own economy

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    Replies
    1. Pure nonsense they set up a trade alliance which turned out to be a political mafia ruling class.

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    2. All trade agreements are political. See WTO rules.

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    3. You have to have rules or people don't co-operate in good faith, like England or indeed America who demand to be in charge then throw their toys out the pram when they're not

      The first thing England and America do in any argument over anything is bring up arms and power and their projection of those things using passive aggressive threats, the world is sick of them and nobody likes either of them

      It's an embarrassement to Scotland to be connected with these people, that's why there's very little of their rotten empire left

      Scotland is ready for Independence and Northern Ireland is ready for reunification with its own countrymen, unfortunately for Wales they're not there yet

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  7. Ghandi never mentioned that they might try to fight you by pretending to ignore you, but I think he was right about the sequence.

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  8. As the unionist propaganda machine gets it into full swing with peddling lies and disinformation as in the recent Glasgow Herald it seems to me a very potent way to counteract are more well timed polls from ScotGoesPop with its succinct and clear questioning. I have contributed to the last two and will continue to support them. Thanks James

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  9. Events are gradually moving opinion in favour of independence. Keep up the pressure by all means available. Next year looks more and more crucial.
    Notice no rational counter arguments at all here so far. Just the usual drivel about "nazis" and EU. It might wash with the pissed up brain dead in an Orange Lodge but every week now I see examples of people being much more open to a new Scotland than before and I live in a moderately, economically secure area.
    Stick together the time is coming.

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    Replies
    1. Is this the imaginary manifesto and candidate-free other indy party?

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    2. I'm sure anon @ 9:14 is actually advocating for voting SNP in constituency and Green in the regional list.

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  10. I see the British nationalists have been trashing Trafalgar square like they did George Square.

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    Replies
    1. It was the various leftie groups that were so sick of losing the referendum who caused the bother. They could not stomach the winners celebrating. I was in George Square that day and you could smell their hatred. Losers.

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    2. I figured you were on the right rather than the left GWC.

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    3. Touché Skier, even I felt that one & I've got absolutely no sympathy for the Glaikit Weegie Cretin.

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    4. I played left half for the school fittie team,does that count?

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    5. "I was in George Square that day"

      Well, if we still had any lingering doubts about where you were coning from, Clown, that nails it. Neo-fascist Hitler-Gruss BritNat relic who has the temerity to use weak passive-aggressive terms on here like "Nat si".

      Or maybe you were that weak little squit at the back egging-on the saluting thugs. That might be more your mark. Fake written all the way through you like seaside rock.

      You're history, whether you know it or not.

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    6. Mr angry Nat si. Why were you mugs and losers in GS, you lost. Get over it tosser. YOU WERE SOOOO ANGRY and Violent. You were trying to impress your Sinn Fein IRA thug pals.

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    7. Angry? I'm not the one shouting, fascistoid. I'm winning. I'm looking forward. I have no need to rake over the ashes of a faded imperial past like you and your pathetic little rabble.

      Look at the polls, loser. Then just kindly buzz off into ancient history where you belong.

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    8. We all know Covidia for what it really is. In normal times, it's the wee guy in the boozer, sitting quietly with its nip and half, wouldnae say boo to a goose. The sleekit wee article then shows up on boards like this, screaming the odds to vent its frustrations at a lifetime of being ignored.
      Pathetic, really.

      Delete
  11. Another way of looking at it... how can you be "tone deaf" about something that hasn't happened yet?

    Which is precisely why the poll is useful. The question didn't ask about Plan B now, or even Plan B at a specific date. The polling shows people are supportive of the idea in principle.

    It doesn't guarantee that if required that is what people will be actually thinking. It's only when you've reached that point that you can determine how "tone deaf" it is, or otherwise.

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  12. Ian Duncan Smith creates poverty then says we must get back to work think of the poor people

    Aye poor people have their uses, best to keep them that way so you can use them to make that point eh

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I call him Imogen Dolores Schüttler. He hates that.

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    2. Mrs Dunkin ShmittJune 14, 2020 at 7:47 PM

      There are no poor people in the Scottish National and EU political circles They take plenty from the taxpayers with no return

      Delete
    3. Covidia will enjoy its Tory masters treating it as a leech on the Brexitannian state. It will smile as it harvests the fields in exchange for its pittance, for it will be dressed up as patriotic duty.

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  13. The health crisis has definitely shown the need for independence. As will English/British nationalist brexit.

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  14. The black murderers matter (BMM) was on in George Square Glasgow today. Taking up valuable police time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I want us always to be British, because it's Great to be British and people respect Great Brian all over the world. My sister agrees with me. She saw a dog cuddling a cat and she thought if they can get on well, so can I. And there's the Queen. She is a Majesty.

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    2. no they weren't! LOL

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    3. United Kingdom of Great Brian and Normal Irene

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    4. That's very good!

      Delete
  15. BRIAN OF NAZARETHJune 14, 2020 at 7:27 PM

    We hate the Romans more than the Judean Peoples Front.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Scottish Irish Nazis attempting to vandalise the Cenotaph in Glasgow today.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The guy who pished on the Keith Palmer memorial was a brexiter.

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    2. The only people congregating in George Square today were Unionists (of the loyal orange variety) and the polis

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    3. Sylvie BauchschlangeJune 14, 2020 at 11:36 PM

      I was in a deserted skiing village in Italy. There were no elephants there and I screamed "Muffcake".

      Delete
  17. I'm not sure why Boris was complaining about the British nationalists rioting in Trafalgar square. They're his voters and they love him.

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    Replies
    1. Sylvie BauchschlangeJune 14, 2020 at 11:38 PM

      Twits bongo. Twits bongo.

      Delete
  18. This Cummings bloke isn't very good at political advice is he.

    Britain Elects
    @britainelects
    ·
    13 Jun
    Preference for Prime Minister:

    Boris Johnson: 33% (-4)
    Keir Starmer: 33% (+1)

    via
    @YouGov
    , 11 - 12 Jun
    Chgs. w/ 30 May

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Cardinal John Henry Newman says you are sussed Skier. Go tae ground for a while.

      Delete
  19. Scottish Irish Nationalist Nazis in Glasgow today attempting to destroy the Cenotaph. Pure wee scumbags. The Unionists are mobilising.

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    1. Your right wing pals who gave the Hitler salute are like the ones that murdered 6 million Jews and millions of others during WW2.

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    2. Covidia and its Nazi fellow travellers couldn't mobilise the head off a pint.

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  20. The reassuring thing is that the anti-anti-racist racists and the anti-anti-fascist fascists are a diminishing minority of the population and will be increasingly isolated as normal ordinary decent unionists shun them as they see them exposed in the light of day (rather than shielded by the media in 2014).

    Their arguments and exaggerations would not hold any scrutiny in any normal channel of public life. No one is listening to them. Their time is coming to an end and they must know it. Violence is their last resort.

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  21. I thought the tracky bottoms worn by the Loyalist Defence were oh so 2012. They badly need a spring cleaning of their wardrobes.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They are on hand me downs since the Nat sis gained power.

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    2. They could at least wash them before wearing them, mind you/

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    3. True, clatty English.

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  22. Brexiters like to tell us that the EU is Nazi and they saved Europe from the Nazis back in 1944.

    This time though they are running away.

    Presumably.

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  23. Sad to hear the Pyramids are to be knocked down because they were built by slaves. July and August to removed from the Calander.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Covidia's just upset because Falange's radio show got cancelled.

      Delete
  24. Get your history right please:

    William had the support of the pope

    This might seem surprising given that the Dutchman was a Protestant fighting a Catholic king. But Pope Alexander VIII was part of the so-called “Grand Alliance” opposed to Louis XIV’s warring in Europe. And, as we have seen, James had the support of Louis.

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    Replies
    1. Aye, King Billy was doing the bidding of the Pope. In the pocket of the papists basically.

      https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pope-supported-the-protestant-king-william-26288767.html

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    2. The Pope was supporting the Vatican interests certainly not Protestants.

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    3. Verbal support, no troops or money.

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  25. The most successful way to create a slave is to deny remove or miseducate, in that the Unionist overlords have been successful, they've created clones of themselves but removed their ability to think or reason

    The Unionist is the real slave

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  26. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 15, 2020 at 12:27 PM

    Some people ask why does the SNP not leave the GRA and Hate crime bills until after independence as they are very divisive. The answer is that the SNP are not planning on independence happening. The SNP is in the grip of Britnats, soft yessers, careerists and all round nutters with weird personal agendas.

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    Replies
    1. That doesn't make any sense though. If you are a careerist, then you avoid 'divisive' policy at all costs as that could cost you your career.

      If you pursue 'divisive' policy, it suggests you actually believe in what you are doing and so are a principled politician, even if people don't agree with those principles.

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    2. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 15, 2020 at 1:41 PM

      Scottish Skier - read my post again I did not say that they were all careerists.

      Plenty who put certain ideas well above independence and their own careers.

      The SNP is supposed to be about Scottish independence - it has gone off the rails.

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    3. Sure. I was just thinking about Sturgeon and the cabinet.

      I've found it bizarre people suggesting Sturgeon is both careerist and a champion of divisive policy, which is like Schrödinger's politician. She can't be both.

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    4. Like with the GRA, some are screaming 'Surgeon is a careerist just giving the public the exact opposite of what they want!'.

      So I be like, 'Erm, what?'.

      My jury remains out on Sturgeon on the indy issue and other areas such as the GRA, but the above - which siren voices keep telling me - makes zero sense.

      Delete
  27. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 15, 2020 at 2:51 PM

    Scottish Skier - I never mentioned Sturgeon and I never said she was both a careerist and a champion of divisive policy.

    The SNP has gone off the rails - the leader has to take responsibility - there you are just for you I mention Sturgeon.

    On Newsnight last week Wark criticises Sturgeon by comparing Scotlands outcomes re the virus with Denmark. The obvious and correct reply in my opinion is to point out that unlike Denmark Scotland is not an independent country. She did not do this. There you are I mention Sturgeon again.

    What is the SNP plan for Scottish independence and how does giving money to the British media contribute to the plan? I say there is no plan because they don't want independence.

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    Replies
    1. What do they want if they don't want independence then?

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    2. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 15, 2020 at 6:17 PM

      The Party to do well.

      The reason for the SNP to exist - independence - has been dropped in favour of the Party doing well.

      Delete
  28. The SNP has gone off the rails

    I see no evidence off this tbh. Polling is showing it would win both Scottish & UK Parliament elections by a country mile. Obviously this means that its polices regarding timing of a second indy ref, lack of interest in a ' plan B' GRA reform are popular with the Scottish electorate. Can't see any reason why the SNP would change these positions in the near future.

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    Replies
    1. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 15, 2020 at 6:12 PM

      Anonymous - you neatly sum up the situation - the PARTY Is doing well. Like the British Labour party in Scotland used to be - all is well - the PARTY Is doing great.

      We want independence not a rebadged British Labour Party with its collection of nutters.

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    2. The party is doing well because its policies are popular. This is is shown in the polls. Polls don't show you winning elections by a landslide if your policies are not popular. I'm pretty sure that the SNP are pro independence.

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    3. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 15, 2020 at 7:02 PM

      Anonymous - "I'm pretty sure that the SNP are pro independence". - hardly a confident statement.

      The SNP promise independence in some far off future Neverland. Some may be happy with that and claim to be supporters of Scottish independence I say they are con men.

      As Barrhead boy said " Nicola, if not now when."

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    4. The SNP promise independence in some far off future Neverland. Which brings me back to my original point. Even if that is the case , people are happy with that, hence support for for the SNP is growing.

      I keep seeing that the SNPs policies on things like the timing on Indy ref and GRA reforms are going are unpopular yet see no evidence of this. If people are going to make claims like that they need to have evidence to back it up.

      Delete
  29. I see that although I should stay within about 5 miles of my home, I could have flown into Scotland from Gatwick today.
    Have we gone mad? What is the point of doing things differently if in fact we are not?
    I am deeply confused.

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    Replies
    1. Nat sis are always controlled and confused. Scotland has been doing what everyone else is in the UK has been doing.

      Delete
  30. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 15, 2020 at 6:31 PM

    If the SNP actually want independence they would have responded to the no sect 30 by Johnston by immediately issuing a statement that from now on ALL SNP manifestos in Gen elections and Scot parliament elections will include a promise that a majority vote is a mandate for independence. Instead we got a pathetic - do nothing - statement from Nicola Sturgeon at the end of Jan 2020.

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    Replies
    1. We have to keep the pressure on the SNP/SG to act stridently for independence instead of just talking about it. [Actually they don't talk that much about it either].

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    2. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 15, 2020 at 7:33 PM

      Doug - no they don't talk about it much at all. The British parties, on the other hand, talk about it all the time.

      It is sad that we have got to the stage that the party of independence has to have pressure applied to it to get it to do something positive towards achieving independence.

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    3. What will you nutters do when we Unionists trash you in another referendum.

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    4. Whatever the strategy, would it be wise to tell the opposition your 'Plan B' a year and a half in advance?

      One of the key rules in politics is to have your opponents constantly fretting as to what it is exactly you plan to do. That and when you actually make your move, do so so fast they don't have time to counter.

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    5. I thought the plan was independence, your opponents know this. There is not a plan B. You will have to give months of notification then we Unionists will find it easy as in 2014 to expose your flaws weakness and lies. The economy and currency will be your downfall. Your EU pals will abandon you.

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    6. UK economy isn't really your strongest point right now.

      It was the 2008-9 UK financial crisis that propelled the SNP to their 2011 majority and led to 2014.

      This time we have all the covid deaths London's responsible for too.

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    7. Who am I to argue with a self appointed expert. The UK economy is doing what most economies are doing during this pandemic, their best. Changing the subject, where would an independent Scotland get the money to pay the NATO 2%, the EU membership and keep the public services intact. Also pay back the Gnome bankers.

      Delete
  31. The UK is Scotland and England so Scotland owns 10% of everything the UK claims to own just like it's access to debt when they borrow
    The bank of England is 10% Scottish owned, those are considerable assets when you also count our oil that will return to Scottish ownership immediately on Independence remembering of course that the UK government borrows on the strength and assets of North sea oil

    Ask Jim Rogers world economist and investor who says post Scottish Independence little England will have nothing to sell and the £ will drop to 80 cents of the value of the $
    Donald Trump already knows this, so does Johnson, that's why the Tories money is short invested on the market for the falling £ and why there will definitely be no deal brexit or the £ would go back up in value and Johnson and Trump would lose billions between them

    Scotland goes for Independence and the £ drops, that's why Johnson is terrified of Nicola Sturgeon and she knows it
    When the May Holyrood elections give the SNP the numbers they want Johnson doesn't stand a chance because the EU will be happy to see a drop in the value of the £ and will go all out to support Scotland for Independence and a Scottish trade deal

    Watch and learn GWC how a patient clever female politician sticks a big long blade right into Johnson's ribs, then twists it for good measure, and you know what, Johnson will do nothing because he can do nothing because the wee Scottish Babayega and her pals that she's been working with for the last five years will gut him like a fish

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    Replies
    1. Love you Nat sis you have a a way with yee in making up stories and avoiding the truth and real issues. Talk a lot shout a lot and do nothing is Nat si policy. And the faithful get on board. You should register as a religion.

      Delete
    2. ScottytheScotinScotlandJune 15, 2020 at 11:00 PM

      Anonymous - so that is Sturgeons plan - stick a knife in to Johnston and twist it. It would be funny if it was not so sad.

      Delete
    3. The UK is Scotland and England so Scotland owns 10% of everything the UK claims to own just like it's access to debt when they borrow
      .....

      The UK is Scotland England Wales and Northern Ireland.

      Considering an Independent Scotland would be using the £ in its early years, you have just told us that Scots would be worse off as the currency in their pocket is devalued by about 35% (against the current price).

      Also that sort of devaluation in sterling would reduce the size of the UK's GDP therefore reducing the amount that you mystical 10% is valued at.

      So as well as not knowing basic stuff like what countries make up the UK you are giving a good reason for Scotland not becoming independent

      Is that the same Jim Rogers that said North Sea oil is running out and that the UK is finished as a financial centre and that the £ would struggle against the euro and dollar back in 2009?

      Delete
  32. Man U, footballer on bandwagon about free school meals. Take a massive wage cut mate along with your overpaid baw kickers. Politicians take a 50% wage cut. We ur aw in it ragither.

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  33. You guys should be scribbling on Wings, definitely more your style, he likes Unionists

    ReplyDelete